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 Burnage wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
Venom spam is great, but it's mostly due to target saturation and the durability of the Venoms as opposed to the poison weaponry itself.

Regarding Venom-spam, do you think Warriors with Blasters are the best units to put into the Venoms?

I'd say so. If you're spamming them you want them to be as effective against as many potential targets as possible and Blasters mixed with poison weaponry is the easiest way to achieve that.

Honestly.... 12 Venoms + 12 Kabals and 12 Blasters (3 Archons + Yvarine for 2 Battalions) can win tournaments, its just boring as all and its only 1850 ish points, you can easily throw in other things or another Venom.

Yeh, I didn't consider it might be boring to play. At least it's not a static gunline though.

I keep feeling mixed about venoms. They still cost quite a bit and a couple good anti-tank shots will still take em down. Yeah you can spread it out if you take 5 model warrior squads with a blaster in each venom but then the amount of firepower they're putting out for that cost just feels low even if each dead venom and squad doesn't do much. I understand it if you want to have some cheap 'objective secured' units and if you want a transport for your minimum troops you're forced to take but i just don't know.

As far as blaster-born go i'd rather go for shredders but that's partly because blasterborn have a huge target on them by being anti-tank and anti-monster.

Our list is an interesting one though. We have some hard hitters that are super fragile outside of vehicles and bikes and coven units. I definitely wouldn't run anything that gets in close if it's fragile unless it's also very cheap in points.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I keep feeling mixed about venoms. They still cost quite a bit and a couple good anti-tank shots will still take em down. Yeah you can spread it out if you take 5 model warrior squads with a blaster in each venom but then the amount of firepower they're putting out for that cost just feels low even if each dead venom and squad doesn't do much. I understand it if you want to have some cheap 'objective secured' units and if you want a transport for your minimum troops you're forced to take but i just don't know.

Yeah, I tend to have similar issues.

The real problem is that their firepower is almost entirely poison shots, and poison is so awful in 8th.

65 points for a Venom is not a lot at all. Considering their innate stat line (and that they can get a 6+++ from Black Heart) they're an absolute bargain.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I keep feeling mixed about venoms. They still cost quite a bit and a couple good anti-tank shots will still take em down. Yeah you can spread it out if you take 5 model warrior squads with a blaster in each venom but then the amount of firepower they're putting out for that cost just feels low even if each dead venom and squad doesn't do much. I understand it if you want to have some cheap 'objective secured' units and if you want a transport for your minimum troops you're forced to take but i just don't know.

Yeah, I tend to have similar issues.

The real problem is that their firepower is almost entirely poison shots, and poison is so awful in 8th.

I didnt play earlier edititions but thats also how i feel. When i play against GEQ, poison's great. If i end up facing power armior, it gets harder. I had a game recently where i just couldnt dent Rubricae nor Obliterators with my poison. 2+ saves are a pain to play against. I feel that because of that dissi ravagers are basically a mandatory tax for our army.

 Burnage wrote:
65 points for a Venom is not a lot at all.

I mean, the platform is alright. If only it had actual weapons, as opposed to a pair of water pistols.


Then again, it probably doesn't help that we simply lack units that can make meaningful use of the Venom. Kabalites with Blaster in a Venom are 112pts with what amounts to 1 worthwhile gun between them.

Yes, the Venom has passable defensive stats . . . but this is the edition of overwhelming offence. A unit that costs barely less than a Ravager but only brings 1 mini-Dark Lance and a handful of nerf guns just isn't impressive.

I want to start playing DE and as it turns out my FLGS runs 1K tournaments every month. Any suggestions on what would make a good list?

Venoms are perfectly Priced IMO, when it was 75pts base i would never take them over Raiders (and many others as well).

A few things about them.

Pros:
Fast
Fly
-1 to hit
Lots of shots
Small

Cons:
5 transport (Major con)
Poison shots (cant hurt vehicles and weaker vs T2/T3)
6 wounds
No AP

Why Venom spam works so well? well 3 main reason
1) Troops are super cheap, 30pts for kabals
2) They are not large threats, and just cheap enough to spam
3) They dont give up extra points in ITC, outside of ITC you see more Raiders as they are actually slightly better in some ways (40% more wounds but takes 16% more damage, still tougher, holds more, and the gun is still good, especially when you takes 10 of them)

If it wasnt for ITC secondaries you honetly would see WAY more Raiders.


Can other armies and units do the same thing? YES! Tau, CWE, Quins, can all do this and in some cases with multi units. Tau can use Piranhas (extremely good, but again ITC is biased against them), Quins can use Starweavers, lets talk about Starweaver spam (something i'm familiar with)

Starweavers are 34pts more, for 4++ over 5++ and its 4++ is in melee too (so better for melee tie up), 6 Str 6 with chance of AP shots (so its always better for the most part vs non-Orc/nid horde style armies), 6 transport slots, and can advance and still shoot, moving 22, can even use traits to ignore modifiers when advancing.

So to give an example, i had 10 Starweavers and 3 Voidweavers list i played for a while trying to make Quins work (we play mono events a lot) and it did better than Venom spam honestly, mostly b.c the Starweavers gave protection to the 2 DJ', Solitaire, Shadowseer, 2 TM's, finally 3 basic troupe squads. It was very limited on CP (9CP) and i wasnt using Skyweavers at the time (Knight Castellen meta yet) But taking out the 3 Voidweavers for the Skyweavers is perfect points.

In test games I beat 3 of the meta lists at that time (this was Pre Fly nerf, so BA's 0 charge DSing was a thing).

Why is venom spam a thing over Starweaver spam then? Honestly? 2 reasons, 1) its cheaper, just b.c something else is better, something cheaper is just better, and Troops, 30pts vs 65 and Kabals (again cheaper) are more useful, shooting is better than melee when you are inside a shooting tank. If Troupes were 8pts a model like they should be it would be different, i know 15pts saved on a 5man isnt much, but 3 units at 65pts is 195pts, where at 40pts its 120, that means you save enough to get 4th unit and still save on points. (They are weaker than wyches in everyway, but they always get a 4++ and RC, vs PFP, Drugs, Cant fall back, they are equals in points but GW thinks Troupes are elite when they are not)

EDIT: Spelling, my english is terrible

Wow that's great information thanks! I bought the start collecting box and really dig the venom model so I'm glad to hear it has its uses I did however forget to stipulate that we're only allowed 1 patrol for our lists at these 1k tournies. A buddy of mine runs a bunch of talos and just wipes people with them even at 1k so I'm not interested in going down that path - would like to be a little original even if it's not as competitive

 necron99 wrote:
Wow that's great information thanks! I bought the start collecting box and really dig the venom model so I'm glad to hear it has its uses I did however forget to stipulate that we're only allowed 1 patrol for our lists at these 1k tournies. A buddy of mine runs a bunch of talos and just wipes people with them even at 1k so I'm not interested in going down that path - would like to be a little original even if it's not as competitive

Just to let you know, it takes 76 (without and re-rolls) Poison shots to kill 1 Talos. So just remember if you are spamming Venoms that it still takes a few with Kabals to hurt them.

Also.. how are your 1k Patrol balanced? I was thinking about do the same for my local actually. 1 Book, 1 Patrol, 1k.

I like the format actually...it's hard to spam stuff and there's no soup. We also get 1CP for each troop unit so you can max out at 6CP on a 4x4 table.

I have been running a lot more cult lately to freshen things up. I have been really impressed by wyches riding in venoms actually.

You can easily zip in and out of range to toss plasma grenades off the back coupled with their pistols and they end up cheaper then Kabs with a blaster (only just since I take nets). You end up with the tactical flexibility to assault with the venom and the squad in later turns and pin units down with the net. If you do it right using the venom to soak overwatch and hit the unit from the other side splitting their pile ins you can actually trap them while taking little damage and prevent the venom from being shot as well and really clog their lanes up. Then in your turn you can break that venom off and keep firing and even load the same squad back into it first and delve deeper into their lines. You can really throw someone off as well by firing a tormentor grenade and a haywire grenade for a cheeky 2d3 mortals, although it does cost CP it can really come in clutch.

I won't try to argue it's an easy load out to use, but it is really rewarding when you get it right. I actually find 5 man units of wyches are the best way to run them so it complements the venom well. I have tried 10 man units in raiders many times and they just end up being a bigger target and don't pull they same weight oddly enough.

5 man kabs in venoms are obviously the go to for most folks, and it's a solid composition as well, but I actually find I have more tricks up my sleeve with wyches crewing venoms. I generally run a cult and kabal detachment though and I almost always make my actual venoms kabal traits, flayed skull or black heart are the obvious choices since you gain mobility or durability.

It's probably worth pointing out that Shredders on Kabalites in Venoms seems to be the new hotness in the tournament circuits. That surprises me a bit because it's pretty strongly engrained in my mind that Blasters are Good, but I can definitely see why it's working on paper.

 Burnage wrote:
It's probably worth pointing out that Shredders on Kabalites in Venoms seems to be the new hotness in the tournament circuits. That surprises me a bit because it's pretty strongly engrained in my mind that Blasters are Good, but I can definitely see why it's working on paper.

Shredders are good, re-roll wounds, some AP, Str 6, and 1/2 the points as a blaster, Blaster were only good back in the day when you NEEDED them for Anti-tank, now even Str 1 can hurt tanks. But honestly IMO it still not worth it, 12" range is to short.

From my limited experience with the army, i feel like blasters are a necessity. I feel like the army doesnt have many ways to deal with high-toughness targets. How would you answer a dreadnought Spam or Tank Spam list?

VladimirHerzog wrote:
From my limited experience with the army, i feel like blasters are a necessity. I feel like the army doesnt have many ways to deal with high-toughness targets. How would you answer a dreadnought Spam or Tank Spam list?

I'm the same. My armies always struggle much more against vehicles than against infantry. And the existence of Knights skews things even more.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
From my limited experience with the army, i feel like blasters are a necessity. I feel like the army doesnt have many ways to deal with high-toughness targets. How would you answer a dreadnought Spam or Tank Spam list?

I'm the same. My armies always struggle much more against vehicles than against infantry. And the existence of Knights skews things even more.

i've heard good things said about haywire scourge/talos but from my experience so far, its been quite middling. Even in melee, talos havnt impressed me.


this is probably because my main army is admech and destroying tanks is an afterthought in that army.

My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.

 necron99 wrote:
My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.

Thats how i almost won my latest game against CSM, he had 4 dreads and my venom spent 4 turns locking them every turn. if the game ended on turn 5 i wouldve won, instead i got tabled and lost :(.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
i've heard good things said about haywire scourge/talos but from my experience so far, its been quite middling. Even in melee, talos havnt impressed me.

The issue with Haywire Scourges is that they're generally only good for 1 turn, after which they get blown to bits.

They're cheap at least but not really consistent (given that their shots are random and you're basically fishing for 6s afterwards).

Talos are a unit I've had almost no success with.

 necron99 wrote:
My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.

Unfortunately, this often isn't possible.

Many of the vehicles that have caused me the most issues are ones that can freely disengage from combat with little to no penalty.

Hell, against Tau, Knights and a FW dreadnought I've literally had whole Talos and units of Grotesques get completely vaporised by Overwatch.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
i've heard good things said about haywire scourge/talos but from my experience so far, its been quite middling. Even in melee, talos havnt impressed me.

The issue with Haywire Scourges is that they're generally only good for 1 turn, after which they get blown to bits.

They're cheap at least but not really consistent (given that their shots are random and you're basically fishing for 6s afterwards).

Talos are a unit I've had almost no success with.

 necron99 wrote:
My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.

Unfortunately, this often isn't possible.

Many of the vehicles that have caused me the most issues are ones that can freely disengage from combat with little to no penalty.

Hell, against Tau, Knights and a FW dreadnought I've literally had whole Talos and units of Grotesques get completely vaporised by Overwatch.

This is one of the big reasons why the Vexator Mask is so good. Charge with the HQ first and the Talos or Grotesques can follow up risk-free. Reavers and Venoms are also disposable enough to just throw them at a shooty target - it doesn't really matter if they do get shot to death.

I think the tournament meta is generally favouring infantry-heavy lists as well after the Knight nerf, so that should be taken into account when thinking about the rise in popularity of Shredders.

How do grotesques help against vehicles that can fallback and shoot? they do minimal damage so they wont really kill vehicles unless you have suepr good luck.

 Burnage wrote:

This is one of the big reasons why the Vexator Mask is so good. Charge with the HQ first and the Talos or Grotesques can follow up risk-free.

It's been in all my lists, but there's no guarantee that the Haemonculus will make his charge - especially since (by necessity) he'll be further back than the Grots/Talos.

 Burnage wrote:
Reavers and Venoms are also disposable enough to just throw them at a shooty target - it doesn't really matter if they do get shot to death.

Is it really good tactics to just hand my opponent free kills at no cost to them?

 Burnage wrote:
I think the tournament meta is generally favouring infantry-heavy lists as well after the Knight nerf, so that should be taken into account when thinking about the rise in popularity of Shredders.

Fair enough.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
How do grotesques help against vehicles that can fallback and shoot? they do minimal damage so they wont really kill vehicles unless you have suepr good luck.

I meant that more against enemies with strong overwatch, but 5 attacks each at strength 5 with AP - 2 isn't the worst damage in the world. Bear in mind you can use The Torturer's Craft stratagem to get them to reroll wounds as well if you want to push things a bit more in your favour.

 Burnage wrote:
Reavers and Venoms are also disposable enough to just throw them at a shooty target - it doesn't really matter if they do get shot to death.

Is it really good tactics to just hand my opponent free kills at no cost to them?

It depends on context, somewhat. Charging a stream of fragile units into heavy flamers, causing them to rack up kills in your own phase? Uh, yeah, okay, maybe rethink that strategy a bit. Managing to get into close combat with a unit so either a) they need to fall back and can't shoot or charge next turn, or b) have to spend their turn killing your unit instead of doing something else? That's a pretty good tactic. You're still handing your opponent a free kill, technically, but it's absolutely at a cost to them.

Distraction and trickery are part of our armoury. You could see giving up a unit of Kabalites or a Venom or whatever as a free kill to your opponent, but if it means they miss out on an objective or killing a Ravager then it's a good call.

Hmm something i feel like i will have to work on is to stop thinking that i HAVE to destroy threats. I have to work on using the speed of the army to my advantage, moving out of range of dangerous models instead of trying over and over to kill them.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Hmm something i feel like i will have to work on is to stop thinking that i HAVE to destroy threats. I have to work on using the speed of the army to my advantage, moving out of range of dangerous models instead of trying over and over to kill them.

This is why wyches are better then most give credit. They are very good at locking up PITA targets.

 Red Corsair wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Hmm something i feel like i will have to work on is to stop thinking that i HAVE to destroy threats. I have to work on using the speed of the army to my advantage, moving out of range of dangerous models instead of trying over and over to kill them.

This is why wyches are better then most give credit. They are very good at locking up PITA targets.

yeah i love the wych models, thats mainly why i picked drukhari as my second army.

I havnt had much success with them, they die quickly.

I've tried them as groups of 5 in venoms and as a big blob of 20 getting deepstriked (only to fail their rerollable charge )

My next games i'll try them in groups of 10 in raiders, i really want to make them work.

I also want to try out the Yncarne so i'll probably run one as a second HQ in a cult batallion.

I actually have more success with 5 in venoms like I said. They are cheap and fast, and can easily hide or charge from behind LOS blocking pieces. Wyches aren't their to whipe units, they are their to get in the way, and tie things down and ultimately die. The other good part about the shard net is the impaler. That thing will surprise you with it's 2 damage, I often manage to kill characters with the 5 girl team, if I don't they trap the bastard They make great hit teams. You just need to get past the mental image that they should be wading into large units and cutting through hundreds of light infantry, other things do that better. I use my bikes and hellions to kill targets and wyches to pin them down, which incidentally can save the other twos bacon if you plan your assaults well by trpaping things.

Sorry I know I am harping on about trapping things, but thats literally the best use with wyches and even spare succubi. It takes practice and finness, and I'd encourage you to mock up targets and just move your models and experiment with ways to get in and hold targets, it only works on things with the infantry keyword, but that's most things.

 Red Corsair wrote:

You can easily zip in and out of range to toss plasma grenades off the back coupled with their pistols and they end up cheaper then Kabs with a blaster (only just since I take nets).

Do you take anything on the Hekatrix?