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I have found the Red Grief Wyches on foot work best for me. I only run them and when I do I run a saturation list.....I am aggressive with everything.....Flyers, Raiders, Reavers all moving forward and forcing the opponent to pick his poison. I then just adjust to whatever they pick to concentrate on.

Wyches almost always get left alone and with the Advance and Charge, I often get them where I need them.

4 Venoms, 3 Raiders and a Flyer or two along with a 15 man blob of Wyches......:-)

I'm by no means a competitive player but I can certainly say that the Wyches in my lists are almost always my MVPs. I regularly run around 30 wyches in my lists. I run two raiders full of ten and one raider of 9 with my succubus. It's worth noting that my usual matches are 1000 to 1250 points. My typical loadout looks like this:

10 wyches w/ razorflails x2 and shardnet x1 w/ +1 strength drug
10 wyches w/ hydra gauntlets x2 and shardnet x1 w/ +1 attack drug
9 wyches w/ shardnet x1 w/ +1 toughness drug (Succubus goes with this squad)

As for the Hekatrix in each squad I often put a power sword in with the +1 strength drug and agonizers on the other two. Blast pistols have never disappointed me either. I do really enjoy the use of phantasm grenade launchers on them if points allow as well. This all may seem like a marge investment in a wych squad but I don't mind as like I've said they always seem to perform very well for me.

I often run cursed blade, the morale protection and +1 strength on wyches is amazing, especially that razorflail squad with the strength drug punching at strength 5 catches a lot of people off guard. Cult of Strife has also been fun for me, it's an insane amount of attacks on the hydra gauntlet squad.

My raiders are loaded up with disintegrator cannons and shock prows, at 1 point it seems like a good bargain to me for the odd wound it'll put out over the bladevanes. I've used dark lances as well and I was reasonable happy with them.

For general strategies I've found it pays to be aggressive with them. I'm not heartbroken if a raider dies so advancing them turn one to get as close as possible into the gunlines generally works for me. It may just be luck but mostly my raiders have been resilient enough that even if they do blow up my opponent hasn't had much other units to shoot at the passengers with so I generally have an almost full squad ready to rock on my turn. I always charge my raiders into combat before my wyches too so they can eat overwatch, saves so many lives that way. Locking opponents in is a huge deal for wyches so as mentioned above even if you have shardnets get used to wrapping opponents. I've even encircled leman russes to pin them between a raider and the wyches for a turn until the wyches can wrap sufficiently to allow the raider to fly elsewhere.

Target priority is also very important, I use my Wyches as bully squads to pick on weak infantry to chew up, elite infantry to bog down in 4++ or tanks that can't fly away to shoot. Ignore the big guys, pick on the support and win with board control. Disruption is the name of the game here. My mandrakes and 5-man naked wracks can tackle objectives for very little investment.

The haywire grenade and torment grenade launcher stratagems can also be used to dish out some MW on your opponent from a source they'd normally not have expected it from.

Sorry for the long post, I'm just really excited that for the first time in a long time wyches feel like they add value to a DE force and I'm glad to not feel handicapped for mostly running Cult. My experience with Wyches may not be the norm but in my local meta they have performed quite well.

Interesting to hear all these Wych strategies. You guys have really made me want to try them.

 Da-Rock wrote:
I have found the Red Grief Wyches on foot work best for me. I only run them and when I do I run a saturation list.....I am aggressive with everything.....Flyers, Raiders, Reavers all moving forward and forcing the opponent to pick his poison. I then just adjust to whatever they pick to concentrate on.

Wyches almost always get left alone and with the Advance and Charge, I often get them where I need them.

4 Venoms, 3 Raiders and a Flyer or two along with a 15 man blob of Wyches......:-)

Out of interest, do you think 3 squads of 5 Wyches could work for this? (Thinking in terms of avoiding morale and also getting extra Hekatrixes.)

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I'm by no means a competitive player but I can certainly say that the Wyches in my lists are almost always my MVPs. I regularly run around 30 wyches in my lists. I run two raiders full of ten and one raider of 9 with my succubus. It's worth noting that my usual matches are 1000 to 1250 points. My typical loadout looks like this:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but why only 1 Succubus?

If you're running 3 units of Wyches, I'd assume you were using a Battalion, so shouldn't that necessitate an extra Succubus?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but why only 1 Succubus?

If you're running 3 units of Wyches, I'd assume you were using a Battalion, so shouldn't that necessitate an extra Succubus?

He might be running the other succubus as a backfield objective holder?

I personally plan on trying out one of the Ynnari HQ's as my second HQ choice for a Cult detachment (probably the yncarne since the model is amazing).
Blood glaive/triptych Succubus are the only way that i feel they can perform, a naked succubus doesnt bring much to the table.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

He might be running the other succubus as a backfield objective holder?

Ah, that could be it.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

I personally plan on trying out one of the Ynnari HQ's as my second HQ choice for a Cult detachment (probably the yncarne since the model is amazing).

I'm equally keen to give the Yncarne a go, albeit for somewhat different reasons.

I'd also really like to include this model, ideally as a Ynnari Shadowseer:



Unfortunately, working Harlequins into my list has proved rather difficult.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Blood glaive/triptych Succubus are the only way that i feel they can perform, a naked succubus doesnt bring much to the table.

Blood Glaive is one of the main reasons why Red Grief is my go-to subfaction for Cults, and also a reason why I'm dubious of running Wych Cults as Ynnari.

That said, I'd like to try a Succubus with Hydra Gauntlets and the Precision Blows warlord trait (Mortal Wounds on 6s and rerolls to wound).

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Blood glaive/triptych Succubus are the only way that i feel they can perform, a naked succubus doesnt bring much to the table.

Blood Glaive is one of the main reasons why Red Grief is my go-to subfaction for Cults, and also a reason why I'm dubious of running Wych Cults as Ynnari.

I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.

Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.

 Burnage wrote:

I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.

Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.

Yeah, I think the Cults are a lot closer in power than the Covens.

If anything, the issue lies with the Succubus being so poor as a melee character.

Anyway, part of my choosing Red Grief is that I usually focus on Reavers rather than Wyches. I can see Strife or Cursed Blade being a better choice if you're using mainly Wych squads.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.

Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.

Yeah, I think the Cults are a lot closer in power than the Covens.

If anything, the issue lies with the Succubus being so poor as a melee character.

Anyway, part of my choosing Red Grief is that I usually focus on Reavers rather than Wyches. I can see Strife or Cursed Blade being a better choice if you're using mainly Wych squads.

i share the same opinion, at least the succubus is reasonably cheap. i still have a hard time making a cult battalion, i usually go for outrider or patrol .

are the non-prophet covens even playable? it seems like the prophet have : the better relic, the better warlord trait AND the better stratagem out of the bunch... oh and an actually useable trait.

on a similar topic, i find that the kabals of obsidian rose and poisoned tongue are underwhelming compared to flayed skull/black heart.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
i still have a hard time making a cult battalion, i usually go for outrider or patrol .

Same.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

are the non-prophet covens even playable? it seems like the prophet have : the better relic, the better warlord trait AND the better stratagem out of the bunch... oh and an actually useable trait.

Yes but 'playable' isn't the same as 'good'.

Coven of Twelve doesn't seem too bad, though definitely not as good as Prophets. Dark Creed seems like something you'd need to build your entire army around and it still wouldn't be very good.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

on a similar topic, i find that the kabals of obsidian rose and poisoned tongue are underwhelming compared to flayed skull/black heart.

Obsidian Rose doesn't seem too bad, but Poison Tongue is really badly designed.

To be honest, I think what really bugs me is that the Poison Tongue ability doesn't work with artefacts. It just comes across as the designers being petty, rather than being done for actual balance concerns.

Me - 'Well, Poison Tongue is the melee faction, so I guess I'll take the Djin Blade on my Archon.'
Designers - 'Okay, then you don't get rerolls to wound in melee.'
Me - 'Wait, but that's the whole point of my taking a melee artefact in the first place.'
Designers - 'Doesn't work.'
Me - 'So you're telling me that the only melee relic for Kabal doesn't actually work with the melee Kabal bonus.'
Designers - 'Yep. Bet you wish you'd picked Black Heart instead.'
Me - 'Yeah, it's a real tragedy that I can't use any of those Kabal special characters. Oh. Right.'
Designers - 'Just be grateful we left you any special characters at all.'
Me - 'Whatever. I guess I'll take the Soul Seeker instead then.'
Designers - 'That doesn't get the rerolls either.'
Me - 'But it's the relic for Poison Tongue? Why on Terra would it not benefit from their own bonus?!'
Designers - 'It just doesn't. Now go away and play a proper Kabal.'

I'm coming around to the idea of a Cult Battalion, just because it's so cheap (220 points before upgrades and transports) and Wyches are actually pretty good at locking down enemy infantry.

They certainly seem like the most viable second faction Battalion currently for my particular playstyle - Craftworlds with jetbike psykers used to be auto-include but are now very expensive for what they bring to a mainly Drukhari list, Harlequins are way too expensive to bring that many Players, Covens are a bit slow for personal comfort and I'd rather avoid needing to bring two more Archons by running a second Kabal Battalion.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

You can easily zip in and out of range to toss plasma grenades off the back coupled with their pistols and they end up cheaper then Kabs with a blaster (only just since I take nets).

Do you take anything on the Hekatrix?

I tried the crap out of blast pistols but stopped taking them. I only take PGL on a couple (not all) for the strat. The reality is your never going to shoot most of them, and the ones you do you will get one shot if your lucky so I don't spend the points. 10 points is way too much IMHO. I wouldn't blame someone for taking an agonizer but generally I just keep the knife for the additional attack. I wish she could take a wych weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.

Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.

Yeah, I think the Cults are a lot closer in power than the Covens.

If anything, the issue lies with the Succubus being so poor as a melee character.

Anyway, part of my choosing Red Grief is that I usually focus on Reavers rather than Wyches. I can see Strife or Cursed Blade being a better choice if you're using mainly Wych squads.

Strife reavers are actually insane, with +1 attack drug they piss out attacks and have access to the fight again strat. Highly recommend giving them a shot if you haven't. You can mulch entire flanks of infantry and still pile into tanks. Remember that when fighting twice your getting another 6" on pile in and consolidating after the initial 6" which can be used to really get into the fray since they fly now that they fixed the FAQ.

Re: succubi the blood glave is decent but she always fell flat for me. When I run red greith I usually just take double net succubus now since the advance and charge and +2 move means they can get almost anywhere for the lock down. Triptich bitch from cult of strife on the other hand is insane. Whip, blood dancer WLT and the +1 to hit drug on turn 3 (turn 2 with strat) just vomits attacks. I regularly get 16 hits with her but have had her up to 20. Pretty incredible mileage from a 54 point model. I actually find the cursed blade succubus the worst, but really funny on the rare occasion you pull off a good traitors embrace.

All three cults are well balanced though, I think the cults are the best written obsessions personally since there is no one obvious choice and all three can be made to fit based on your play style.

Coven are the worst balanced, they gave the best obsession, relic and WLT to the coven with the best special character lol.

It's a minor point but the combat drug is +1 WS, not +1 to hit. It doesn't interact with Blood Dancer.

Ah your right, fair enough. Guess I'll need to hyper stym her if I want to go full bananas. She is still pretty efficient. Overall I think the shard net and impaler are the best load out on succubi but the few relic builds are cheap enough and a lot of fun that I usually take one.

Regarding the discussion about Wyches, how does this look for a list:

Poison Tongue Battalion (+5CP)
Archon w/ Huskblade, Splinter Pistol, Soul Seeker [Warlord: Soulthirst] - 76
Archon w/ Huskblade, Blast Pistol, Djin Blade - 86
3 Lhamaeans - 45
5 Warriors w/ Blaster - 47
5 Warriors w/ Blaster - 47
5 Warriors w/ Blaster - 47
Ravager w/ 3x Disintegrator - 125
Razorwing w/ 2x Disintegrator, Splinter Rifle - 135
Venom w/ Splinter Rifle - 65 (Warriors)
Venom w/ Splinter Rifle - 65 (Warriors)
Venom w/ Splinter Rifle - 65 (Warriors)
Venom w/ Splinter Rifle - 65 (Lhamaeans + Djin Blade Archon)
Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80 (Wyches + Succubus)
Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80 (Wyches + Succubus)
Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80 (Wyches)

Cursed Blade Battalion (+5CP)
Succubus w/ Hydra Gauntlets [Alliance of Agony: Precision Blows] - 54
Succubus w/ Shardnet & Impailer - 54
10 Wyches w/ 2x Razorflails, Blast Pistol & Power Sword - 102
9 Wyches w/ 1x Hydra Gauntlets, Blast Pistol & Agoniser - 90
9 Wyches w/ 1x Shardnet & Impailer, Blast Pistol & Agoniser - 91

1500pts (11CP after Stratagems)

The Warlord Archon will probably start in the Venom but will get out on the first turn and try to get behind LoS-blocking terrain to use his Soul Seeker. The other Archon will ride with the Lhamaeans and try to find a heavy-infantry or monster to attack.

The Succubus with Hydra Gauntlets will ride with the Shardnet & Impailer Wyches, whilst the Shardnet & Impailer Succubus will ride with the Hydra Gauntlet Wyches (so both units will have access to a Shardnet). The Razorflail Wyches will have the +1S drug and will be off on their own. Warriors, Ravager and Razorwing will do their usual thing.

Whelp i just made a new 2,000 pts list. I'll test it out soon to see if it's any good. I don't think i have all the models i need but i'm close.



Anyway here's to hoping it works. The bikes have 8 blasters, archons have 2 more blasters, 27 dissie shots, 12 shredders. It should be enough anti-tank/monster and should throw out some decent anti-infantry too. The dissies are a bit multi-role here so we'll see how it goes. I made the succubus warlord have +1 WS to counter-act the -1 to hit and +1 S because monsters are usually T 7 and i figured the damage should be helpful vs anything that large. I could possibly stimm boost her if i face T 8 but since she has stimm addict that'd hurt considerably.

@red corsair: I'm actually up in the air about Red Grief or Cult of Strife myself. The amount of attacks and double shooting if i kill something with those reaver blasters could definitely be worth it. That said i may need to bog down the enemy with a unit and if i face something really big then that Strife stratagem would be worthless. If that is the case Red Grief is preferred. Also i can't get Blood Glaive with Strife so it's a bit of a tough call.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I made the succubus warlord have +1 WS to counter-act the -1 to hit and +1 S because monsters are usually T 7 and i figured the damage should be helpful vs anything that large. I could possibly stimm boost her if i face T 8 but since she has stimm addict that'd hurt considerably.

The Blood Glaive doesn't have -1 to hit, unlike the standard Archite Glaive, so you might want to give her a different combat drug or Warlord Trait.

Yea, I'd give her the 3++ dodge if your planning on taking down bigger monsters.

 Burnage wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I made the succubus warlord have +1 WS to counter-act the -1 to hit and +1 S because monsters are usually T 7 and i figured the damage should be helpful vs anything that large. I could possibly stimm boost her if i face T 8 but since she has stimm addict that'd hurt considerably.

The Blood Glaive doesn't have -1 to hit, unlike the standard Archite Glaive, so you might want to give her a different combat drug or Warlord Trait.

Oh i didn't know that. I figured it was mostly an archite glaive and so had the -1 to hit as well.

Not a huge deal but i also found out i thought the wyches were more expensive than they are so now i get an extra 15 pts i can spend. I'm not sure if i will spend them since it's not that big a deal.

I will probably take the 3++ inv. dodge now that it is something i can do. Either that or i could give her the +1 A combat drug with the +1 S. The bikes need the +1 T though.

Anyone use Harlequin allies with DE?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Anyone use Harlequin allies with DE?

Yes even for ITC, and i'll say this again for the 20th time lol

Vanguard
Shadowseer
DJ
DJ
Solitaire
Skyweavers x6, x6 WHC

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Anyone use Harlequin allies with DE?

Yes even for ITC, and i'll say this again for the 20th time lol

Vanguard
Shadowseer
DJ
DJ
Solitaire
Skyweavers x6, x6 WHC

I use the same detachment and they combine perfect with my coven detachment

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Anyone use Harlequin allies with DE?

Yes even for ITC, and i'll say this again for the 20th time lol

Vanguard
Shadowseer
DJ
DJ
Solitaire
Skyweavers x6, x6 WHC

Apologies, I must have missed you saying this before.

Out of interest, how do you find the Death Jesters?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Anyone use Harlequin allies with DE?

Yes even for ITC, and i'll say this again for the 20th time lol

Vanguard
Shadowseer
DJ
DJ
Solitaire
Skyweavers x6, x6 WHC

Apologies, I must have missed you saying this before.

Out of interest, how do you find the Death Jesters?

Not you, but many others, its a common question. Its odd b.c i feel like i'm always talking about it in some page on here or another, no worries.

I love DJ's they are cheap objective holders, with Flip belt, 8" that can run and shoot ignore terrain makes them actually someone fast. Having character protection means they can run around safe.

You need to be careful if someone brings the Assassin tho, that player will go for them, otherwise he run around doing what they want.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I love DJ's they are cheap objective holders, with Flip belt, 8" that can run and shoot ignore terrain makes them actually someone fast. Having character protection means they can run around safe.

Interesting. I've been wondering about including some in my lists (partially for flavour), so that's good to hear.

The one thing that seems odd is that they have 4 attacks but no melee weapon.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You need to be careful if someone brings the Assassin tho, that player will go for them, otherwise he run around doing what they want.

Well, I think I'd still prefer an assassin shooting at a Death Jester to shooting at a Shadowseer.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I love DJ's they are cheap objective holders, with Flip belt, 8" that can run and shoot ignore terrain makes them actually someone fast. Having character protection means they can run around safe.

Interesting. I've been wondering about including some in my lists (partially for flavour), so that's good to hear.

The one thing that seems odd is that they have 4 attacks but no melee weapon.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You need to be careful if someone brings the Assassin tho, that player will go for them, otherwise he run around doing what they want.

Well, I think I'd still prefer an assassin shooting at a Death Jester to shooting at a Shadowseer.

Mine never get into CC lol, but i meant the assassin more so if you are playing ITC. If not then 100% agree!

So i finally got to try the Yncarne in a real game. My god is it fun to play. I think that from now on it'll be a mainstay in my lists, especially ones where i go with 2 detachments of kabals.

It scored slay the warlord, captured multiple objectives, caused overall confusion for my opponent and let me deny the much important "Da'Jump" she tried casting.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
So i finally got to try the Yncarne in a real game. My god is it fun to play. I think that from now on it'll be a mainstay in my lists, especially ones where i go with 2 detachments of kabals.

It scored slay the warlord, captured multiple objectives, caused overall confusion for my opponent and let me deny the much important "Da'Jump" she tried casting.

There's a reason everyone hated the Ynnari army. =)

It's not near as broken now. Thank God!

 Jancoran wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
So i finally got to try the Yncarne in a real game. My god is it fun to play. I think that from now on it'll be a mainstay in my lists, especially ones where i go with 2 detachments of kabals.

It scored slay the warlord, captured multiple objectives, caused overall confusion for my opponent and let me deny the much important "Da'Jump" she tried casting.

There's a reason everyone hated the Ynnari army. =)

It's not near as broken now. Thank God!

yeah i only played one game with the old ynnari and it was wayy overboard. with just the yncarne, it feel fair to play. its just another expensive model that lets me do the "big brain" plays. And the model is super good looking on top of that. Im eager to play it again

Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:

1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?

2) Drug use. I'll be honest it was a mixed bag once drugs weren't random anymore. On the one hand no more rolling LD for our units which is a waste of a drug but on the other hand we only get one of each drug until all are used? Well that scales horribly for anyone wanting to run a primarily cult force. Makes any wych squad after the first two feel like a waste and eats the only drugs that could actually help the succubus do damage at all ( S or A). For this reason I have my number of units I'm comfortable fielding and beyond that the lack of good drugs makes me feel like I'm getting diminishing returns on units that don't get the good stuff. A unit of wyches with +1 A costs the same as a unit with a LD bonus.

So for CP I actually run the raiding party. I know it's not the best way to build our force especially since battalion got a CP boost but the raiding party didn't but at least this way I get to play with our entire codex (not just pick two and make battalions) and I don't have to run multiples of our disappointing HQ selection. I have to be efficient with CP but since I don't run Black heart for Vect most other stratagems don't really break the bank.

Succubus is a cheap 50pts HQ that unlocks a 2nd Bat for super cheap.

It also can sit on objectives, i just throw it on a back field objective and have character protection kick in and hold it all game.