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 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:

1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?

2) Drug use. I'll be honest it was a mixed bag once drugs weren't random anymore. On the one hand no more rolling LD for our units which is a waste of a drug but on the other hand we only get one of each drug until all are used? Well that scales horribly for anyone wanting to run a primarily cult force. Makes any wych squad after the first two feel like a waste and eats the only drugs that could actually help the succubus do damage at all ( S or A). For this reason I have my number of units I'm comfortable fielding and beyond that the lack of good drugs makes me feel like I'm getting diminishing returns on units that don't get the good stuff. A unit of wyches with +1 A costs the same as a unit with a LD bonus.

Hey, thanks for getting back to me.

I definitely agree with your comments here. One of the biggest issues with our HQs is that they rely on Warlord Traits and Artefacts just to be passable. And even then they still lack any mobility options.

Regarding Drugs, I really wish you picked a single drug and applied it to your whole army, rather than having to pick a different one for each unit.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

So for CP I actually run the raiding party. I know it's not the best way to build our force especially since battalion got a CP boost but the raiding party didn't but at least this way I get to play with our entire codex (not just pick two and make battalions) and I don't have to run multiples of our disappointing HQ selection. I have to be efficient with CP but since I don't run Black heart for Vect most other stratagems don't really break the bank.

Ah, I see. Yeah, that's understandable. I can't do it myself at the moment, as I'm looking to include a small detachment of Ynnari-Harlequins, but I definitely see where you're coming from.

Thanks for explaining.

One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.

 Burnage wrote:
One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.

Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Succubus is a cheap 50pts HQ that unlocks a 2nd Bat for super cheap.

It also can sit on objectives, i just throw it on a back field objective and have character protection kick in and hold it all game.

yeah, people need to stop expecting her to perform like she does in the fluff. In-game shes a tarpit for heavy infantry (Obliterators) or a backfield holder. Being 50 is cheaper than most HQs in the game, so her not being as strong as a smash captain doesnt mean anything. I like running mine with a shardnet+impaler, the traitor's embrace and the cult of strife warlord trait hold them in and deal damage by saving.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.

Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).

All three of those have their uses, even if they're more limited than +1S or +1A. +1WS helps a Succubus stuck with the standard Archite Glaive or any unit expecting a turn 1 or 2 charge, +2M can help a unit of Reavers running interference, +2LD helps Beastmasters. If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.

 Burnage wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.

Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).

All three of those have their uses, even if they're more limited than +1S or +1A. +1WS helps a Succubus stuck with the standard Archite Glaive or any unit expecting a turn 1 or 2 charge, +2M can help a unit of Reavers running interference, +2LD helps Beastmasters. If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.

Serpentin doesnt actually help a glaive succubus. Her WS becoming WS1 doesnt mean she autohits, shes still going to autofail on 1's. Serpentin does not give +1 to attack rolls like power from pain does.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.

Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).

All three of those have their uses, even if they're more limited than +1S or +1A. +1WS helps a Succubus stuck with the standard Archite Glaive or any unit expecting a turn 1 or 2 charge, +2M can help a unit of Reavers running interference, +2LD helps Beastmasters. If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.

Serpentin doesnt actually help a glaive succubus. Her WS becoming WS1 doesnt mean she autohits, shes still going to autofail on 1's. Serpentin does not give +1 to attack rolls like power from pain does.

It's not about auto-hitting, it's to counter the -1 to hit from the Glaive. WS1 means that she's hitting on 2s with the Glaive before the +1 to hit from Power From Pain kicks in.

Edit: This has been explicitly clarified in the Drukhari FAQ;

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll?
A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail.

 Burnage wrote:

Serpentin doesnt actually help a glaive succubus. Her WS becoming WS1 doesnt mean she autohits, shes still going to autofail on 1's. Serpentin does not give +1 to attack rolls like power from pain does.

It's not about auto-hitting, it's to counter the -1 to hit from the Glaive. WS1 means that she's hitting on 2s with the Glaive before the +1 to hit from Power From Pain kicks in.

Edit: This has been explicitly clarified in the Drukhari FAQ;

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll?
A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Succubus is a cheap 50pts HQ that unlocks a 2nd Bat for super cheap.

It also can sit on objectives, i just throw it on a back field objective and have character protection kick in and hold it all game.

yeah, people need to stop expecting her to perform like she does in the fluff. In-game shes a tarpit for heavy infantry (Obliterators) or a backfield holder. Being 50 is cheaper than most HQs in the game, so her not being as strong as a smash captain doesnt mean anything. I like running mine with a shardnet+impaler, the traitor's embrace and the cult of strife warlord trait hold them in and deal damage by saving.

I know right.

Imagine how ignorant and stupid someone has to be to expect a melee character to actually be worth a damn when it comes to melee.

 Burnage wrote:

All three of those have their uses

They really don't. We just like to kid ourselves that they do.

 Burnage wrote:
+1WS helps a Succubus stuck with the standard Archite Glaive or any unit expecting a turn 1 or 2 charge

+1S or +1A would also help a unit wishing to charge on the turn 2. The difference is that they don't become worthless from turn 3 onwards.

 Burnage wrote:
+2M can help a unit of Reavers running interference

Given that Reavers already move 26", I doubt you'd even notice the difference in 99.9% of games.

 Burnage wrote:
+2LD helps Beastmasters.

Well, *a* beastmaster. Because you can only give 1 of them +2Ld and if you have 7+ Cult units in your army you know damn well that you're not spending your 'wild' drugs giving other Beastmasters +1Ld. if anything, you'll be using extra Beastmasters as dumps for the crap drugs no one wants (see above).

Also, what about the many lists that don't run any Beasts/Beastmasters at all? Are you really going to put your hand on your heart and tell me that +2Ld is useful for them?

 Burnage wrote:
If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.

But this is the thing - it's not just about having 7+ units, it's about having 7+ units of which 3 have to suck because they're not allowed any of the good drugs.

 vipoid wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Succubus is a cheap 50pts HQ that unlocks a 2nd Bat for super cheap.

It also can sit on objectives, i just throw it on a back field objective and have character protection kick in and hold it all game.

yeah, people need to stop expecting her to perform like she does in the fluff. In-game shes a tarpit for heavy infantry (Obliterators) or a backfield holder. Being 50 is cheaper than most HQs in the game, so her not being as strong as a smash captain doesnt mean anything. I like running mine with a shardnet+impaler, the traitor's embrace and the cult of strife warlord trait hold them in and deal damage by saving.

I know right.

Imagine how ignorant and stupid someone has to be to expect a melee character to actually be worth a damn when it comes to melee.

There is a difference in "melee character worth a damn" and "Melee character worth its points"

A Succubus is worth its points in every way, 50pts.. You need to take in account what it is and has Now.. if it was 100-120pts then yeah i would expect it to do more damage.

Yes the Succubus is criminally underrated for her points cost. Very cheap HQ option.

Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.

No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.

We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).

I give up.

 vipoid wrote:
Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.

No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.

We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).

I give up.

can you relax? its a game. ok the succubus dont satisfy what you expect them to do, but even with multiple people telling you that its a good unit FOR ITS PTS COST, you keep arguing and flinging gak all over the place.

i dont expect a 50 pts unit to kill a 100-200 pts unit by itself, no matter if it could in the fluff. Melee isnt only for killing stuff, in fact, most times i've charged was to deisable a dangerous target by locking it down, not to kill it. 40k isnt team deathmatch, raw damage isnt the only metric you should use when evaluating units.


were not showering her with praise as you said, were saying that it does good for one of the cheapest HQ's in the game.

 vipoid wrote:
Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.

No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.

We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).

I give up.

It's almost like other players are treating the Dark Eldar codex as if it were really strong overall and still fully capable of winning tournaments by itself.

Crazy, I know.

Hmm, my Archon kills HQs like Smash Captains and others in melee all of the time. My saves are solid, but occasionally can be bad.

Sounds like Vipoid needs to play harder at it or maybe just relax and enjoy a GAME!

Christ, it's like dealing with my kids!

 vipoid wrote:
Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.

No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.

We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).

I give up.

Go look at my history and see how hard i down lots of parts of our codex. Just b.c we dont agree with you on this 1 point doesnt mean we are talking down the power level of weak units.. you are hyperboling at this point.

Lets see everything i hate, bash, or said as bad in our codex many many times...........

Lack of HQ's /list]
[list]Segregation of subfactions and many units (mixing Wych/kabal/coven)

Cant take some units without other units (Beast/court)

Points imbalances with many units (Hellions, Incubi, etc..)

Missing units for no reason (Trueborn, Bloodbrides, HQ's)

Useless traits for Coven (its clear 1 is best)

Current HQ's pointless and lack luster (Dra/Lelith)

DE special detachment is pointless

Last and most importantly for me: Removal of all flavor to have more stratagems and lack luster gameplay options, Reavers drive by, HoW hits, character options builds, Beast mix squads

But no, having a cheap HQ not deal 12 damage in melee is hating on DE....

 Burnage wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.

No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.

We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).

I give up.

It's almost like other players are treating the Dark Eldar codex as if it were really strong overall and still fully capable of winning tournaments by itself.

Crazy, I know.

Seriously, it's hard to take anyone seriously when they claim the current codex sucks. I also don't understand why anyone would expect a 50 point character to solo squads or characters that cost double. Welcome to 8th edition, where chaos lords and captains literally can't chew through a 40 point guard squad in a phase either lol. you know what the big difference is? That 50 point succubus will keep the survivors stuck in place and survive while the 90 point capatin/lord will be disengaged and shot off the table unceremoniously. So I'd say we came out ahead. This edition took steps back away from hero hammer and made squads more lethal, I like that more personally, but I can see why someone used to hero hammer might miss it. It is what it is however, and it isn't just a DE thing.

It's also odd hearing folks crap on 3 of the 6 choices for combat drugs. I mean, Jesus, we get combat drugs, power from pain AND obsessions lol. You have to actually think about where you allocate 1 of 3 resources, that's called playing the game. I hate books that make decisions easy. I usually give 1 succubus the +2 movement (with a net) and a beast master the +2 leadership, which are actually great choices. That means you have the +1 ws to dump somewhere. Well, your only getting +1 to hit from PfP on turns 3+ so just toss it on a wych unit thats going on the front line. If your 5 man tarpit unit of +1 WS wyches are still hanging around by turn 3 then you probably shouldn't be bitching because your creaming your opponent lol.

I'll be honest, the most annoying part of combat drugs for me personally is the book keeping.

At the risk of diving into something I may not want to I'd like to preface this by saying I am not a competitive player.

I see both sides of the coin on this issue concerning the succubus. On the one hand she performs nothing like the lithe, deadly masters of the arena that is represented in the lore. She's objectively worse in CC than either of our other two HQ options and using her in this capacity is a list building nightmare (stealing the good drugs from units that benefit more, relic and WL traits a necessity to make her even remotely dangerous in CC, transportation). She simply doesn't feel like the leader or champion of a cult of gladiatorial maniacs who relish the duel and pitting their best and dirtiest tricks against an opponents. On the other hand she is incredibly cheap points wise for an HQ and can serve the purpose of a tarpit model and a cheap addition to make a cult battalion.

What this comes down to for me is that I want her to feel on the table at least a bit like how she comes across in the lore. I think barring a few tournament only players most of us would like our units to behave on the tabletop in a fashion that pays homage to the lore that they represent. I'm in no way saying our codex is bad, it's amazing in so many ways and is certainly a top contender, that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement however. There are certainly units that good use another pass by the rules dev team to make them more appealing choices, Incubi, Hellions, and Cronus immediately come to mind. Our codex is already good but it certainly would benefit from having a few units looked at again to make them viable options that could give us alternatives to list building. Viable variety in list building, this can only be a good thing for us and our opponents right? There's only so often you can field or fight a triple ravage with writ archon babysitting them before it gets stale right?

So while I respect the opinion that for her points a succubus can be built to be a useful addition to our forces as a tarpit or character rules shielded objective holder I simply don't feel this is the most fun or appropriate use of her. I would love for her to get a points bump and receive the rules necessary to have her feel more like the arena champion she is.

On the topic of drugs: I agree the book keeping can be tedious. I would be happy if it was changed to pick 1 drug and it applies to your whole force. Though I suspect we may only ever see +1A or +1S after a change like that. As an alternative perhaps go back to the drugs are random days but have them apply to your whole force but it's rolled on a D3 of +1A, +1S or +1T. Army wide +2Mov could be interesting on a wych cult too. Maybe take it a step further and every turn you roll to see what you get for your force or perhaps you select a drug at beginning of turn but it can't be the drug you had last turn? Just throwing out ideas, I just feel we can come up with a more elegant and balanced combat drugs rule over what we currently have.

Sorry for the long post, never been good at keeping my thoughts concise.

Um.. nothing on the table feels like the lore.

Space marines would be armies of 10 models and at the same time Tyranids would be literally 5 Tyrants, 20 Fex's, 500 gants, 1000 rippers for the same points as those 10 Marines.

Tho on a quick note, Space Marines did have rules at one point, it was Movie Marines (basically you played with 5-10 marines that are equal to Gman)

Never look at lore for power level, just for the role that unit plays

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:

1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?

A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:

1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?

A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.

And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?

I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:

1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?

A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.

And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?

I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.

except shes clearly not supposed to be a melee fighter that kills stuff, her role is to lock down heavy infantry. just because shes clearly meant to be in close combat doesnt mean she has to be good at killing

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:

1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?

A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.

And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?

I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.

You give them a Shardnet & Impaler because they have an entirely respectable combination of damage and utility with it.

The Succubus can stand on its own... as long as you keep in mind that it's a fifty point model. You've got to have lowered expectations compared to virtually every other melee HQ.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

except shes clearly not supposed to be a melee fighter that kills stuff

Er . . . yes she is. That's literally her fluff.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
her role is to lock down heavy infantry

I guess the Archon's role is to be a Master of Ordnance for Ravagers, then?

 Burnage wrote:

You give them a Shardnet & Impaler because they have an entirely respectable combination of damage and utility with it.

I wouldn't consider S3 AP-1 D2 respectable for a sergeant, let alone an HQ.

 Burnage wrote:

The Succubus can stand on its own... as long as you keep in mind that it's a fifty point model. You've got to have lowered expectations compared to virtually every other melee HQ.

Why? I never asked for the bloody thing to be 50pts. I wasn't the one who decided that it should be absolutely worthless at everything and antithetical to its own fluff and role.

Amishprn86 wrote:Um.. nothing on the table feels like the lore.

Space marines would be armies of 10 models and at the same time Tyranids would be literally 5 Tyrants, 20 Fex's, 500 gants, 1000 rippers for the same points as those 10 Marines.

Tho on a quick note, Space Marines did have rules at one point, it was Movie Marines (basically you played with 5-10 marines that are equal to Gman)

Never look at lore for power level, just for the role that unit plays

I apologize for not coming across clear enough in my earlier post. I feel the ideas of tabletop role and tabletop effectiveness can often be conflated in many posts concerning models "playing like the fluff". There is certainly a balance between representing a model on the table as it is represented in the lore and making sure the rules make it fun to both play with and against. If you read a novel with space marine protagonists of course each marine will be shown as the walking gods many assume them to be. Likewise in the path of the Eldar/ Dark Eldar trilogies many of the Eldar characters are shown to perform things far beyond their normal capabilities on the tabletop. This is something that happens in novels to make the characters feel powerful and important and sadly does lead to many people being disappointed by the tabletop effectiveness of said model/unit. There is a balance here and in some cases, as I believe applies in this one, the rules team fails to achieve an appropriate balance between making the model feel right on the table without being overpowered. The lore states that the succubus is a melee fighter/duelist, highly skilled and deadly with a variety of weapons. For rules it would then be reasonable to expect that she could pose a viable threat to many infantry based models on the table using a variety of weapons suited to different styles of combat. What we have instead is a model that doesn't put out enough damage to be worth her (even arguably small points cost) for that purpose. Her most common and effective weapon loadout is instead a utility combo designed to lock down opponents and act as a tarpit to high value targets. Another mentioned tactic is to leave her on the backfield to hold an objective using the gamey character targeting rules to protect her from incoming fire. Neither of these options represent the role laid out in the fluff for this character in any meaningful capacity. Indeed if her weapon options were revisited as well as her core stats (notably her number of attacks, why is it less than an archon?) so as to make her a reasonably dangerous melee threat then wouldn't she portray that role much more accurately and actually get played as the combatant she's supposed to be? I'm not asking for her to be a one-woman wrecking crew, I don't want a brokenly powerful model, I would just like to field her as a melee fighter that could actually get a few kills in the match and feel like the champion of the arena she's supposed to be.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:

1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?

A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.

And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?

I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.

except shes clearly not supposed to be a melee fighter that kills stuff, her role is to lock down heavy infantry. just because shes clearly meant to be in close combat doesnt mean she has to be good at killing

Her role is only to lock down heavy infantry because that's the only thing she can effectively accomplish for her points and with her current weapon options. This role is never once mentioned in the lore or fluff that is intended to influence her rules design. According to her lore entries she absolutely is intended to be quite adept at killing things. Why is it a bad thing to want this? We know from the podcasts and interviews with model designers that the workflow for new models is as follows:
-Designer makes the model
-Narrative writers give the model background and their place in the 40k universe
-Rules team writes rules to represent the model on the tabletop using visual cues from the model itself as well as the narrative entry as inspiration.

In this case the model itself comes stock with an archite glaive and agonizer. You can't even get a shardnet and impaler without buying a different unit box and kit bashing her. Based on the model alone it should be a melee fighter, the lore then backs this up as well elaborating on how deadly of a fighter she is. So why is it that she's absolutely horrendous when using the stock loadout her box comes with? In fact it makes no sense to ever load her out as her model is designed as the agonizer and glaive have no meaningful interactions that make them a desirable weapon combo. If GW was strict here about the "no model=no rules" course and forced us to take our succubi as they are modeled instead of throwing on a shardnet and calling her a cheap speedbump then maybe there'd be more outcry to make her other weapons more viable?

I feel like there's some cross discussion happening here.

Is there some jankiness in the Succubus' rules? Yes, absolutely. If nothing else the standard Archite Glaive has a frankly bizarre stat profile and it's odd that she can be equipped with two melee weapons when that doesn't benefit her in the slightest.

Is she reflective of the fluff? No, not really, barring some very specific builds that take up relics and warlord traits and lock you into certain Cults.

Is she worthless in-game? No. She's a 50 point HQ choice, which is valuable in and of itself for detachment purposes. She's got good utility with No Escape. She can deal some damage. She's fine and useful, even if she's not the best HQ in the game.

Would I love it if we had some kind of Succubus Queen unit that was stronger in combat, or a Reaver Succubus that didn't get forced to footslog or mess up transport options? Yes, absolutely. But even if those other units existed the current Succubus would still plausibly see play thanks solely to how cheap she is and how much utility she brings.

It's easy to focus on how things should be and neglect to think about how you can take advantage of the way things actually are.

I've always agreed that the succubus is effective as a cheap HQ tarpit. And for her cost yeah you can fill cheap battalions for CP farm. I can agree with these statements. I'm not blind to her uses as you are not blind to the discrepancy between her lore and her rules Burnage.

As a mostly casual/narrative player however the Succubus fails to be fun for me to play. She doesn't fulfill her role to a satisfactory level and having to run her as a tarpit or battery just doesn't feel satisfying. In a game that is supposed to be fun first and foremost she falls short of the mark to achieve that. Other elements of the Drukhari codex certainly deliver in spades in both theme and rules to make our force as a whole a great joy to play, the succubus is just one of a few small blemishes on that.

I do give GW a lot of leeway, probably a lot more than I should most days but on this I feel they dropped the ball and should do better.

I do agree with you though Burnage having a Reaver or Hellion succubus would be a ton of fun and a welcome addition to our forces. I don't agree with a Succubus queen option though, I think the succubus herself should be our queen. Bump up her points, make her fun to play as a deadly assault unit and make her the Succubus she should have always been. If we want to keep a cheap battery succubus we have now then instead make a new unit under the succubus, pull the Syren leader from the old bloodbride unit and make her a mini HQ.

but if we make her stronger than she is, she will get points bump for sure and people will complain that our HQs are too expensive.

Make a more expensive version of the succubus, but keep this 50pts one as a cheap HQ option.

I'd rather have Wings, Reaver, Skyboard HQ options for Archon/Succubus.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'd rather have Wings, Reaver, Skyboard HQ options for Archon/Succubus.

yeah, that way we would still have access to a cheap HQ while also having the option to make them better.

was there a difference between the wings, jetbike and skyboard?

Because being able to give either deepstrike (wings), hit and run (skyboard) or bigger advance (jetbike) would be pretty cool