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Bringing uriel might be worth it now, since he buffs both str and toughness by +1. Str/Toughness 6 grots is pretty nasty

I didnt see he got a str bonus (so many changes lol), that is good and with his points drop for sure in a coven army might be a must take.

Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.

Wracks are poison, dont care about +1S.

Grots go from S5 to S6. Doesnt help vs much.

Talos go to S8 I think which is admittedly nice. I can see taking Urien with lots of Taloi, say if you used to run corpsethief.

I ran a test game yesterday where I had 5 grots with the aforementioned reroll 1s aura guy and the 4++ and holy crap were they durable. I lost one single grot to basically 2/3 of a tau army's firepower (Like 100 S5 AP- shots with full marker support). sadly their homedawg talos ate a full fusion commander's firepower and he did not roll so well on his invulns. You hate to see those 2s.

I'm not seeing the -1AP trait as nearly so juicy after seeing that both monstrous cleavers and macroscalps got -2. 4++ is just so universally good, and Dark Creed is basically "do you want a LD shenanigan army? If yes, check this box here".

If your grots get into a tank or something that you think will give them trouble, just pop the 2CP reroll all wounds stratagem and go to town on them. 5 grots with that stratagem on do 6.2 damage average vs T7/T8 3+. Thats pretty good given theyre not anti tank monsters by any means.

Yeah, that makes since, nice pov.

I think our special characters are in a very solid, healthy spot for what special characters in 40k should be: Timmy Picks (if you're familiar with the MTG player types).

They get a whole lot of fairly unfocused awesomeness for a relatively small number of points...buuut you can take a slightly more expensive custom character who is generally better for a focused, power-gamed army setup.

I never wanted to be one of those armies that's hugely defined by particular named characters. It heavily cheapens subfactions and causes critics to judge the whole faction based on a super special toy only one gets (Right, Marine/Admech Players?)

Urien, Drazar, and Lelith all get suitably cool, epic stuff for their pretty relatively low points costs. Urien gets his strength aura, his extra defenses, his funky casket thing, his weaponry, all for the low low price of 10pts. Lelith gets her crazyness for 30. But you can make a Generic Brand Lelith with the Triptych Whip and the Strife trait who's putting down an absolutely mean number of attacks for super cheap. And you can get a generic POF haemie with the electrowhip and the reroll 1s invuln trait and he works out to more expensive than Urien, but he's more consistently useful.

Now with real auras and better prices, i agree, they are almost in a perfect spot, the onlyt hing better would be to have at least 1 mobile character, but oh well.

The more i look at Black Heart Archon, the more i want to run 3 Ravagers with it and the more i like using Black Heart.

With the Archons re-roll 1's to hit, and the BH Relic aura to re-roll Wounds, having him on foot seems good, being a character the opponent will have to go through 3 vehicles just to get to him, or melee him (He will for sure be my Warlord).

Hmm, Archon + haemonculus + 4 grots in a deep striking raider. Guaranteed to ruin someones day turn 2 xD

And brining a 5 man team or 2 of wracks makes good and durable backfield objective holders.

 ThePie wrote:
Hmm, Archon + haemonculus + 4 grots in a deep striking raider. Guaranteed to ruin someones day turn 2 xD

And brining a 5 man team or 2 of wracks makes good and durable backfield objective holders.

IDK if we can have Coven with Kabal now, has this been confirmed yet?

My army is mostly Kabalite stuff, but I'd kinda like to try the 3-Warlord thing.

In terms of Coven stuff, I've got:
Haemonculus x1
Wracks x5
Grotesques x5
Talos x1

(I've got Raiders and Venoms as well)

I don't really know what Coven is like in the new book. Do I have enough here to field a useful detachment?

You for sure can field a detachment, 1 HQ, 1 troop, then the rest is gravy.

The 4++ is IMO best best, tho -1ap if you are spamming Wracks and want some better melee damage (1 detachment of 2x5 wracks would be good) But for sure Grots want the 4++ they already have -2ap now.

Without Gear/Vehicles (I would add a Raider and Venom)

Patrol: (without gear) 346pts, Either do 4++ or bonus -1ap, depending what you want more survivable or more damage (I personally like the 4++)
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Grotesques x3 (so to fit in raider with haemonculus)
Talos x1

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 ThePie wrote:
Hmm, Archon + haemonculus + 4 grots in a deep striking raider. Guaranteed to ruin someones day turn 2 xD

And brining a 5 man team or 2 of wracks makes good and durable backfield objective holders.

IDK if we can have Coven with Kabal now, has this been confirmed yet?

it has not been confirmed as of yet whether our transports will still transport Drukhari infantry or if the rule will change to only allow <subfaction> infantry, which would disallow this tactic.

Regardless, I'm not really feeling this tactic myself. Seems like a huge target to just plop down, and you could always just DS the grots on turn 2 in which case they'd have a decent chance of immediately being in combat.

per the HQ question, here's what I'm currently leaning towards:

Archon: The way I see it, you want to either give him a trait/relic to push him more into the "threat" category and run him in a transport (court as mentioned works fine in a venom, Incubi work fine in a Raider because they have no specials you're giving up with a unit of 5-9.) or you want him to be a backfield guy with a 2-point venom blade rocking the Black Heart relic+WL trait. I have two versions of "Threat Archon" one where hes in a Freakshow list with the generic "roll 2 dice for LD tests pick the highest" debuff trait, and one where he's got the Flayed Skull trait+Djinn Blade as in the TTT video.

Succubus: Probably the one I'm most likely to give her own dedicated Succu Bus, i.e. her own venom. I'll probably slot an Ur-Ghul in there with her just to halve the chance that she gets punked by an unlucky 1 when the vehicle gets destroyed and help her not get bogged down by infantry. My second choice is the old fashioned Crossfit Succubus, jogging behind the raider like a chump with 10" move drugs. Probably will run that in my Red Grief detachments because shes going to get into combat no problem anywho.

Haemonculus: AKA the easy one. Haemies (slash rakarth) are buffbots anyway, and all their stuff moves the same as them. Just walk 'em. If you just want to splash into haemie stuff, run them with 4 grots in a raider. Or 9 wracks - what, were you really missing that 2nd liquifier gun?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the biggest traps we're likely to fall into are "just deep strike them" and "put them all together in one transport."

Our transports now are HIGHLY cheap for what they do, especially the double splinter venom with Flayed Skull trait. 19" move, BS3 rerolling 1s on a dozen splinter shots that has -1 to hit and a 5++ for 75 points? That's completely worth it to transport a usually 80 point archon so that he can actually make it into combat turn 2. Similarly if you've got a 5-man squad of something in a venom, it costs you all of 5 points to upgrade that to a disintegrator raider that holds you an HQ.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You for sure can field a detachment, 1 HQ, 1 troop, then the rest is gravy.

The 4++ is IMO best best, tho -1ap if you are spamming Wracks and want some better melee damage (1 detachment of 2x5 wracks would be good) But for sure Grots want the 4++ they already have -2ap now.

Without Gear/Vehicles (I would add a Raider and Venom)

Patrol: (without gear) 346pts, Either do 4++ or bonus -1ap, depending what you want more survivable or more damage (I personally like the 4++)
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Grotesques x3 (so to fit in raider with haemonculus)
Talos x1

Sorry, I really meant is it worth fielding that detachment?

As in, is it any good? I don't know what these things are currently like.

That IDK yet.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You for sure can field a detachment, 1 HQ, 1 troop, then the rest is gravy.

The 4++ is IMO best best, tho -1ap if you are spamming Wracks and want some better melee damage (1 detachment of 2x5 wracks would be good) But for sure Grots want the 4++ they already have -2ap now.

Without Gear/Vehicles (I would add a Raider and Venom)

Patrol: (without gear) 346pts, Either do 4++ or bonus -1ap, depending what you want more survivable or more damage (I personally like the 4++)
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Grotesques x3 (so to fit in raider with haemonculus)
Talos x1

Sorry, I really meant is it worth fielding that detachment?

As in, is it any good? I don't know what these things are currently like.

Absolutely - though I'd leave out the raider and run all 5 grotesques. If you're running the three-patrol setup with Alliance of Agony, this is what I'd run:

Prophets of Flesh detachment (4++ Insensible to Pain)

Haemonculus with reroll 1s to Insensible rolls trait, Electrocorrosive Whip

5x Wracks, Ossefactor, Electrocorrosive whip

5x Grots

Talos with Splinter or Haywire, Talos Glove and 1x Macroscalpel

that'd give you a nice anvil to run at your opponent when you're tired of playing a glass cannon faction.

Okay, thanks.

I take it the Wracks aren't in a venom or anything?

Can do w/e you want really, Wracks are great by themselve tho, they dont need a transport, but if you wanted to be hyper aggressive then you need to move them faster.

So the way I understand the new books, no reason you can't take Trueborn with 4 of the new blasters? Unit as costed and stated in index + no changes to the unit stats, given options as stated in the index but use weapon prices and stats from the codex?

Or do most tournaments now limit you to only things in the codex if there is a codex?

The flowchart says you can take Trueborns still, and you will use the new wargear points/stats.

EDIT: Archons can still take Blasters for now.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The flowchart says you can take Trueborns still, and you will use the new wargear points/stats.

I thought you needed to have the models for them?

Do Trueborn count for that when they never had proper models?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The flowchart says you can take Trueborns still, and you will use the new wargear points/stats.

I thought you needed to have the models for them?

Do Trueborn count for that when they never had proper models?

Khan on bike doesnt have a model, why would DE be any different?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The flowchart says you can take Trueborns still, and you will use the new wargear points/stats.

I thought you needed to have the models for them?

Do Trueborn count for that when they never had proper models?

Khan on bike doesnt have a model, why would DE be any different?

And Grey Knights were allowed to make an HQ out of a non-HQ model. It didn't mean we got to do the same.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The flowchart says you can take Trueborns still, and you will use the new wargear points/stats.

I thought you needed to have the models for them?

Do Trueborn count for that when they never had proper models?

Khan on bike doesnt have a model, why would DE be any different?

And Grey Knights were allowed to make an HQ out of a non-HQ model. It didn't mean we got to do the same.

No but if 1 army is "allowed" to take a unit without a model then all are b.c these are general rules for everyone.

I was more curious if the tournaments restricted the old guard and marine stuff, which would suggest that Trueborn would generally not see much play. Otherwise with the boost to blasters and traits (no cover save from blasters, +6" range, +1 to hit unit with fly etc) I'd be curious to see how GW treat an index unit that might end up as popular as these guys.

Tastyfish wrote:
I was more curious if the tournaments restricted the old guard and marine stuff, which would suggest that Trueborn would generally not see much play. Otherwise with the boost to blasters and traits (no cover save from blasters, +6" range, +1 to hit unit with fly etc) I'd be curious to see how GW treat an index unit that might end up as popular as these guys.

Tournaments right now are more or less GW FAQs and Codexs all stand and precede what ever they rule. That's the general stance. A few tournaments have been doing things like making it so you can't use Chaos/Aelf/Imperium to be your army wide faction keyword.

As for waht GW will do??? If they do like AoS, It'll likely be nerf to either being decent or bad, and ignored. Similar to how they did with Tomb kings and bretionians. Bretionians are actualy still doing decently, but they aren't really like tournament dominating.

Do people think it's worth putting 2 splinter cannons on the venoms, or save 10 pts per model and use the twin-splinter rifle instead of one of the cannons?

Im also debating if it's better to put blast pistols or blasters on my archons, was planning to put 3 archons together with 7 warriors in a raider and deep strike it, to try to get them into melee as quickly as possible because i believe they can do some real good damage there.
Blasters will let them alpha strike better when they deep strike, while blast pistols will let them shoot when they are in melee.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I have 18 (well 20 but idk where 2 went) Grotesques that i used to LOVE to DS 10man units (You could DS and run in 7th) to make this insane large footprint of huge wound pool t5/6 units.

I want to try it again, but dont think it will be anywhere as effective due to how damage table is now. But with the 4++, it might be worth it.

Maybe you can fit all of them in a decent list now, 10 deepstrike by webway portal and 2x4 in raiders.

 ThePie wrote:
Do people think it's worth putting 2 splinter cannons on the venoms, or save 10 pts per model and use the twin-splinter rifle instead of one of the cannons?

Im also debating if it's better to put blast pistols or blasters on my archons, was planning to put 3 archons together with 7 warriors in a raider and deep strike it, to try to get them into melee as quickly as possible because i believe they can do some real good damage there.
Blasters will let them alpha strike better when they deep strike, while blast pistols will let them shoot when they are in melee.

It will depend on your Obsession, some will be better with, others are just better off without. If you are going for Black Heart, your vehicles are 6+++ and you have a re-roll aura of 1's to hit and to hit, or if your Kabals have a longer rnage shot, you can stay back with loner range and stay out of danger. If you are using them just for some extra shots and protection, i dont think its worth it, the 2nd Splinter cannon doesn't add to much, its more about the range than the shots. A Kabal is 6pts, sometimes the extra body or 2 is better, you get more wounds and still have a gun.

I will be doing Blast Pistol on 1 and nothing on the Other. My Black Heart Archon will just be base (Maybe Venom Blade if it is back and cheaper) b.c he is going to be walking on foot for buffs, the blast pistol one is up front and will most likely be in CC for aura and damage.

 Blackie wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I have 18 (well 20 but idk where 2 went) Grotesques that i used to LOVE to DS 10man units (You could DS and run in 7th) to make this insane large footprint of huge wound pool t5/6 units.

I want to try it again, but dont think it will be anywhere as effective due to how damage table is now. But with the 4++, it might be worth it.

Maybe you can fit all of them in a decent list now, 10 deepstrike by webway portal and 2x4 in raiders.

I'd deep strike one unit for 1CP, give them the 1CP stratagem which allows them to treat the turn as 1 higher for purposes of PFP, and try to charge them in. The odds of getting in when you have both a full re-roll and are willing to spend an extra CP if you fail but roll a 6 or 5 is right about around 70%.

WWP for Coven IMO is best, I like the idea of foot coven.

Coven will have 4++ now and FnP maybe re-roll 1's for FnP too, Wracks are T5 Grots are T6, For the cost of a Raider I can have 2 more Grotesques or 9 more Wracks, when factoring in the same toughness, 4++ over 5++ and FnP they are actually the same survivability, plus if a Vehicle dies any 1 means 40pts+ also dies with it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:


So it seems that we can "For now" have every Coven/Wych WL trait all at once. What do you think?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
WWP for Coven IMO is best, I like the idea of foot coven.

Coven will have 4++ now and FnP maybe re-roll 1's for FnP too, Wracks are T5 Grots are T6, For the cost of a Raider I can have 2 more Grotesques or 9 more Wracks, when factoring in the same toughness, 4++ over 5++ and FnP they are actually the same survivability, plus if a Vehicle dies any 1 means 40pts+ also dies with it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:


So it seems that we can "For now" have every Coven/Wych WL trait all at once. What do you think?

Im debating whatever it's even worth bringing an haemonculus coven, the haemonculus is not really that killy for his costs, so it all depends on how worth it wracks are.

On another note, will people be bringing disintregator cannons or dark lances on thier ravagers? personally i feel like we lack weapons with volume of shots with high ap to deal with marines, so disintregator ravagers could shore up that weakness, or perhaps it's better to bring more long ranged anti tank?