Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wyldcarde wrote:
What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.

Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.

3 Patrols wont be a thing in Comp play at all, you'll see Battalion with 2 special detachments or even just 2 Battalions.

Im doing Spreadhead, Outrider, Battalion myself. For both Tac/Casual and Hyper comp.

At least as of right now until i digest the codex for 20 hours lol, and if GW faqs something...special i want to do.

The point of bringing a succubus in a kabal detachment is because she's cheaper than a second archon and with her I can have traits for the succubus and the haemy as well. With a second archon I can't give the trait to him or the haemy and I don't think he adds that much than a succubus, even with the kabal buffs.

I'd just bring her and some bikes in the kabal detachment. The bikes should be fine with the -1 to hit stratagem in turn 1, even without the wych cult buffs. 9 of them with 3 grav talons and 3 blaster is what I'm looking for.

My goal is to avoid wracks and bring no more than 3 HQs, preferably one of each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
If I were playing within the restrictions above (maximum CP, with Agents of Vect available) I'd skip the three patrols, and go for:

Black Heart: Either an airwing detachment, or a Spearhead detachment with the rerollchon and 3 ravagers. Both seem strong, both seem like something you're highly likely to see souped into Aeldari lists in competitive to get access to stratagems for your Ynnari detachment

Then Coven - Battalion. Wracks are solid. Haemonculi are solid. I would also consider bringing Drazar as the second HQ here if he really does go down around 90 points because that seems like a pretty good independent beatstick unit. I'd almost always take these guys as Prophets of Flesh, though I think a LD-freakshow with Dark Creed is much more viable than people think currently.

Then Wych Cult - outrider, either Cursed Blade or Red Grief depending on what units you're wanting to take. I think you can take a wych battalion viably, but it has to make up the core of your army and you'll want a lot of blaster scourges and for sure you want that Ravager formation around the Archon with dark lances.

The kabal battallion looks solid as well, kabalites in venoms are very good now, more than wracks I think. Coven spearhead with 3 units of 2 talos could be nice, it's what I'm looking for, alternatively a vanguard with 3 units of grots or 2 units of grots and some mandrakes or incubi.

 Blackie wrote:
The point of bringing a succubus in a kabal detachment is because she's cheaper than a second archon and with her I can have traits for the succubus and the haemy as well. With a second archon I can't give the trait to him or the haemy and I don't think he adds that much than a succubus, even with the kabal buffs.

I'd just bring her and some bikes in the kabal detachment. The bikes should be fine with the -1 to hit stratagem in turn 1, even without the wych cult buffs. 9 of them with 3 grav talons and 3 blaster is what I'm looking for.

My goal is to avoid wracks and bring no more than 3 HQs, preferably one of each.

You do know that that breaks the Kabal detachment bonus as well though, right? if you bring just one succubus in a Kabal detachment, then it is no longer a Kabal detachment. It's a Drukhari detachment, which gets no trait.

If you want to bring exactly one of each type of HQ, I *think* I know of some way for you to get that done in three detachments...

No, I didn't know that, thanks for correcting me

For one of each I can go with coven spearhead/vanguard, kabal battallion/spearhead and wych cult battallion/outrider. But I fear I couldn't field all the units that I wanted to try together without losing the bonuses.

Alternatively I can use some patrol detachments but I must give up some CP this way as no way I'm going to field wracks

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.

Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.

3 Patrols wont be a thing in Comp play at all, you'll see Battalion with 2 special detachments or even just 2 Battalions.

Im doing Spreadhead, Outrider, Battalion myself. For both Tac/Casual and Hyper comp.

At least as of right now until i digest the codex for 20 hours lol, and if GW faqs something...special i want to do.

I didn’t say anything about patrols?

Supreme command to me anyway seems to tick the box of getting a black heart archon and homonculus without compromising the rest of the list.

You don't need a black heart archon though. Technically, I think you just need a black heart detachment of some kind in your army. Hence my suggestion of an airwing - Black Heart is the best subfaction to have for an airwing anyway.

Black heart archon for the get back cps spent on a 6 trait. Seems pretty good.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Black heart archon for the get back cps spent on a 6 trait. Seems pretty good.

Oh, sure. Yeah. I think the best use of him is pretty unequivocally just standing near some ravagers with the reroll wound rolls of 1 relic and a venom blade so he's absolute minimum cost. He's a captain and a lieutenant rolled into one and he gives you the good strat and decent value for his points.

Wyldcarde wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.

Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.

3 Patrols wont be a thing in Comp play at all, you'll see Battalion with 2 special detachments or even just 2 Battalions.

Im doing Spreadhead, Outrider, Battalion myself. For both Tac/Casual and Hyper comp.

At least as of right now until i digest the codex for 20 hours lol, and if GW faqs something...special i want to do.

I didn’t say anything about patrols?

Supreme command to me anyway seems to tick the box of getting a black heart archon and homonculus without compromising the rest of the list.

Never said you did? Just used you as an example, we wont see much patrols.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
You don't need a black heart archon though. Technically, I think you just need a black heart detachment of some kind in your army. Hence my suggestion of an airwing - Black Heart is the best subfaction to have for an airwing anyway.

This i'm not sure of honestly, others might know more than me, but we will know 100% for sure when the codex comes out.

This is my first Wych-focused list with the new leaks and rules from the new codex, and it should come out to around 2k. It is based on the models I own, so some choices are driven by that (I'd love to field 3 ravagers...I don't have 3 ravagers, etc. I'd love to field a plane, I don't have a plane.)

One of the succubi gets 10" movement and just jogs after the wych raiders. two of the succubi board THE SSLYTH PARTY BUS with the Archon (the venom) and rely on lots of distractions to keep them from getting blown away. 12 Red Grief Reavers do what 12 Red Grief Reavers do and shoot up 26" turn 1 to get the party started. I'll most likely give them Splintermind to save them a couple LD casualties and actually give the T drug to the hellions most games, since the Hellions will be unconcerned with LD but probably still will be a fire magnet. People just don't seem to like seeing the swarm of clear bases and target those guys a lot.

Wyches are Attacks, Attacks, Strength rolling into the 2nd iteration of the drug table, and Succubi will be Move, WS, and probably Strength on the Red Grief gal with the relic. Kabal is BH primarily so I can get ramshackle on my vehicles and Agents of Vect.

the_scotsman wrote:
If I were playing within the restrictions above (maximum CP, with Agents of Vect available) I'd skip the three patrols, and go for:

Black Heart: Either an airwing detachment, or a Spearhead detachment with the rerollchon and 3 ravagers. Both seem strong, both seem like something you're highly likely to see souped into Aeldari lists in competitive to get access to stratagems for your Ynnari detachment

Then Coven - Battalion. Wracks are solid. Haemonculi are solid. I would also consider bringing Drazar as the second HQ here if he really does go down around 90 points because that seems like a pretty good independent beatstick unit. I'd almost always take these guys as Prophets of Flesh, though I think a LD-freakshow with Dark Creed is much more viable than people think currently.

Then Wych Cult - outrider, either Cursed Blade or Red Grief depending on what units you're wanting to take. I think you can take a wych battalion viably, but it has to make up the core of your army and you'll want a lot of blaster scourges and for sure you want that Ravager formation around the Archon with dark lances.

The problem with Dark creed isn't that the bonuses are not good or useful but that they didn't give us many useful wasy to use it. All the best moves require psyckers from other armies to combo from. Heck, even the PGL needs to come from another model outside coven. Then it requires your opponents list to not be prepared for LD issues. There are tons of ways to protect your units from LD problems, this would be my guess as to why they got the character sniping stratagem. But as a chaos player who has played and seen night lords played I can tell you it is not nearly as good as it looks on paper. The units it works on most often are chaf that don't care.



Also, just to go back a bit in regard to grots being strength 6 over 5, it definitely is a meta thing. I play competitive player, even the casuals or fluffy players like to have an edge since we were all at least competitive in the past. GEQ is the best type of infantry when it comes to 8th, being able to hit and wound on 2's with the now improved AP is a massive difference. It's 16% but when your looking at 100+ dudes that's the difference between another 16 killed or not. And GEQ is definitely something grots should be mulching through, coven has no other decent way to clear them. In fact the other best way to clear chaf is with cult, which as others have already said, does not pair best with coven do to overlap.

poweroftwo wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Then take it into the rules section. This is not the place for it. Discussions like this bring on to much baggage in a thread like this.

Yep, moved tho i'd really like this question put to rest allready as it IS pertinent for a "transport" based army. Aaaaand moving on to other shenanigans because.... duh. Can a stat every be modified under 0? I know a 1 is allways a failure but i'm talking leadership here. I'm curious if a "LD bomb" style list would be viable. Chaos could do this but chaos has to either do it with squishy Night Lords Infantry + expensive FW models. DE could do it with units you'd want to take normally.

So it's like 3 from Obssesion, 1 From killing the WL ("easily done via essoteric kill from afar), 2 From a hemlock, 1 from Horrify ... a Wraithseer could add 1 for a -8. Anything else? If this was applyed to say a unit with 6 LD, would it hit -2 or 0? Also Shadow specter force unit to trait morale rolls as "melta" and i think incubi or Drazhar make 1 aditional model flee? (i have a brief flash of seeing something regarding to the DE codex along the lines of "each time a model flees an aditonal one does" as in... double morale casualties? Could just be how the writer was hastilly translating it or could just be a fever dream...

Moving this from the other thread if we are trying to migrate.

Just looked at the core rules - Leadership can never be modified below 1.

For those curious, here is the list of things I know of that modify or affect leadership:

Up to -3, 6" Aura: Coven of the Dark Creed trait

-1, 18" targeted shooting attack: Phantasm Grenade Launcher

-1, army wide: Pray they Dont Take You Alive (Note: Does not work with Esoteric Kill because I believe you have to kill the warlord with melee)

Roll 2 and take the highest result when rolling morale, 6" aura: Generic Archon warlord trait

-1, 6" aura from all units: Turn 5 PFP table, turn 4 if Black Heart Kabal

Also, stuff from allies

-1, 6" aura: Mask of Secrets Harlequin Relic

-1, 12" aura: Hemlock Mindshock Pods

-1, targeted psychic power: Terrify

And things that do damage based on Leadership/with other leadership stuff

Roll 3d6 vs leadership of all enemy units within 3", cause a mortal wound for each win: Generic or Dark Creed haemie trait, I don't remember

D3 mortal wounds vs a unit hit by a PGL: 1CP stratagem

roll 3D6 vs Leadership, D3 Mortals if you beat it: Harlequin Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher

You pick the first model to die to LD: Death is Not Enough death jester ability

Whenever a model dies to leadership within 6", on a 6 another model dies: 2 point Grisly Trophies, new DE vehicle upgrade

My LD+D6-Your LD+D6 mortal wounds: Mind War psychic power

Yes, it be nice to migrate so we dont have 25 pages of all strategies, points, ideas, etc..

New codex mean new things!

I just don't want to commit to that title gag for eternity, especially when the far superior 'whose spine is it anyway, where everything's made up and the power levels don't matter' is available.

Being told from a person with the codex

Lhamaeans are "poisoned weapon, add 2 to wound unless it is targeting a vehicle. For each wound roll of 6+ (other than vehicle), target suffer an additional mortal wound"

And are slightly cheaper than Chapter Approve. Talk about good!

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Being told from a person with the codex

Lhamaeans are "poisoned weapon, add 2 to wound unless it is targeting a vehicle. For each wound roll of 6+ (other than vehicle), target suffer an additional mortal wound"

And are slightly cheaper than Chapter Approve. Talk about good!

I think I've found the perfect use for them...

Tetsu0 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Being told from a person with the codex

Lhamaeans are "poisoned weapon, add 2 to wound unless it is targeting a vehicle. For each wound roll of 6+ (other than vehicle), target suffer an additional mortal wound"

And are slightly cheaper than Chapter Approve. Talk about good!

I think I've found the perfect use for them...

lol... well just Double check, you can only have 4 per detachment, and doesnt take up FoC slots, they also lost character keyword and are 15pts (all Court is like this and cheaper now,)

I think I'd like for them to lose character honestly. I don't use them now because of the headhunter rule in ITC missions. Single archon with court in venom gives up max points.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I think I'd like for them to lose character honestly. I don't use them now because of the headhunter rule in ITC missions. Single archon with court in venom gives up max points.

And stuff like that is why i dont care for results of tournaments other than to look for fun (i mean to gauge a codex power) there might be some amazing combos but you never will see out of fear losing the game via house rule missions.

With that said, I mike it too, i just know some used to like to splash a couple here and there and character helps that style more so than how they are meant to be played (with an Archon). ts a bit more fluffy now, it also means GW is willing to make them cheaper (which i like more than character rule).

I find the ITC missions way more balanced and engaging myself though. They may get called "house rules", but I hate the randomness of the maelstrom missions where luck affects the winner more than strategy and the eternal war missions demonstrate very little in the way of tactics or engagement with scoring only being done at the end.

Isn't it worse to play the game by the rules and lose to luck?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I think I'd like for them to lose character honestly. I don't use them now because of the headhunter rule in ITC missions. Single archon with court in venom gives up max points.

And stuff like that is why i dont care for results of tournaments other than to look for fun (i mean to gauge a codex power) there might be some amazing combos but you never will see out of fear losing the game via house rule missions.

With that said, I mike it too, i just know some used to like to splash a couple here and there and character helps that style more so than how they are meant to be played (with an Archon). ts a bit more fluffy now, it also means GW is willing to make them cheaper (which i like more than character rule).

Personally I founf the character beta rules had a much bigger effect, Sslyth were no longer able to protect Archons as well as they used to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Hemlock is a -2 to leadership bubble, not -1.

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I founf the character beta rules had a much bigger effect, Sslyth were no longer able to protect Archons as well as they used to.

Are these the revised rules that still allow Girlyman to hide behind a few conscripts that barely reach his knees, whilst an Archon can be effortlessly picked out behind his dedicated bodyguard?

 vipoid wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I founf the character beta rules had a much bigger effect, Sslyth were no longer able to protect Archons as well as they used to.

Are these the revised rules that still allow Girlyman to hide behind a few conscripts that barely reach his knees, whilst an Archon can be effortlessly picked out behind his dedicated bodyguard?

LOL funny way to put it, well not anymore b.c they are not characters

If it's true that they don't count as characters and since taking 4 doesn't seem to count as a single unit of 4 but 4 separate units of 1, it'll be a real pain for enemy targeting. I'd definitely bring my medusae back out to ride along with archons in their own venoms.

Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.

EDIT: Note, this is with both a warlord trait and the Blood Glaive relic, so no spamming potential.

Sooo... Red Grief Suckubuss supreme command detachment? :-)

 Niiai wrote:
Sooo... Red Grief Suckubuss supreme command detachment? :-)

I know a few that are doing them actually.

Raulengrin wrote:
Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.

So, wait, does the Glaive actually have Power Fist stats now? Or is this with a relic?

Also, is 54 the base price? I heard it was 50pts.

 vipoid wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:
Just got my codex. Red Grief Succubus is no joke. 3++/6+++ with warlord trait, S6 Ap-3 D3D hitting on 2+ with 4 attacks. Move 10" with movement drug, advancing and charging with rerolls. Or give her the extra attack drug for 5 attacks and stick her in a transport. All for 54 points.

So, wait, does the Glaive actually have Power Fist stats now? Or is this with a relic?

Also, is 54 the base price? I heard it was 50pts.

I think he is talkig about the relic?, and you still have to buy the weapon but you must also take a weapon no matter what, so its effectively 54pts even if she is 50 base.

It is the relic. It does not come with the -1 to hit.