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I think the best armies will be mostly all shooting and highly mobile.

I full agree, but i think some Reavers will be added in many list.

For sure most will do Spear head of Black Heart with Ravagers and transports for the Ravager (Raiders) to use for your other units.

I understand the black heart apeal. Good relic, good stratagem, good warlord trait. But their general bonus is quite bad.

I really like the 6+ range. 42 ranged dark lances on very nimble and mobile platforms is incredebly strong.

I feel like the reavers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.

mmimzie wrote:
I feel like the reapers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.

Reaper? Or Reavers? The Reaper is a 150pt Tank that is D6 Lance Shots

 Amishprn86 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:
I feel like the reapers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.

Reaper? Or Reavers? The Reaper is a 150pt Tank that is D6 Lance Shots

yeah reavers lol. My phone and i tend to have disagreement on what i'm trying to say..... Worse than that my fingers and my brain also have disagreements lol.

 Primark G wrote:
I think the best armies will be mostly all shooting and highly mobile.

Ravager, Razorwing and Voidraven are all undercosted. Raider too.

At the moment I’m thinking about Farseer, Spiritseers, 3 mini squads of Reapers, two Serpents, 3x Rangers, and then one Archon and 3 Ravagers, 3 Razorwing Jets and 2 Voidravens.

The Reapers are mainly for the Tempest Launchers but if they’re hit too hard in the FAQ then just more Drukhari vehicles.

Someone in a spam meta will no doubt play 9 or so dissie Ravagers. 125 points is criminally underpriced for what it can do. Reroll 1’s to hit and wound, inv save, fly... its crazy.

 Niiai wrote:
I understand the black heart apeal. Good relic, good stratagem, good warlord trait. But their general bonus is quite bad.

I really like the 6+ range. 42 ranged dark lances on very nimble and mobile platforms is incredebly strong.

Yeah, the first kabal that I'm going to try out is the +6 range one. Then the flayed skull, that also seems very good: +3M on flying things, re-roll of 1s for rapid fire and ignores cover, that kabal also has a stratagem that cancels the -1 to hit on flyers which can be very useful. Black heart has a good relic and stratagem, I agree, but for the trait I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.

About the archon model, now that we're encouraged to take more than a single archon a new kit with multiple pose would be amazing. I'd just be ok with the old archon, haemy and succubus available again on the site even for a limited period of time. Damn, I can't stand having two identical models in the army


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mmimzie wrote:
I feel like the reavers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.

Reavers are good now, they benefit from power from pain and the drug. With the appropriate cult bonus (advance and charge plus re-roll charges) they can even charge turn 1. Eldar bikes work differently, they're a shooting platform. And they're units from another army

 Blackie wrote:
I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.

You don't need to have all three. So long as you have an Archon as your warlord, you can use the stratagem. Which means you can easily dip into a small coven detachment in order for a quick and easy 0-2 free command points. I've no intention of using any cult units, so that's how I'll be using it. Sure, it won't be as efficient as getting that third warlord trait in, but it costs absolutely nothing.

 Blackie wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I understand the black heart apeal. Good relic, good stratagem, good warlord trait. But their general bonus is quite bad.

I really like the 6+ range. 42 ranged dark lances on very nimble and mobile platforms is incredebly strong.

Yeah, the first kabal that I'm going to try out is the +6 range one. Then the flayed skull, that also seems very good: +3M on flying things, re-roll of 1s for rapid fire and ignores cover, that kabal also has a stratagem that cancels the -1 to hit on flyers which can be very useful. Black heart has a good relic and stratagem, I agree, but for the trait I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.

About the archon model, now that we're encouraged to take more than a single archon a new kit with multiple pose would be amazing. I'd just be ok with the old archon, haemy and succubus available again on the site even for a limited period of time. Damn, I can't stand having two identical models in the army


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mmimzie wrote:
I feel like the reavers are alittle lack luster?? Damage wise they don't bring more than an eldar jet bike even if you count melee, and alot of the meta has ways that allow them to retreat and still shoot you. Meaning you're sort of just offering up easy kill points.

Reavers are good now, they benefit from power from pain and the drug. With the appropriate cult bonus (advance and charge plus re-roll charges) they can even charge turn 1. Eldar bikes work differently, they're a shooting platform. And they're units from another army

Sure, but I make the comparison because i tried similar tactics when I started out with the new craftworld codex as wind riders can very reasonable make a turn 1 charge in saim-hann. They even do better damage than the reavers end up putting out in early turns. So, again different army is super relavent, but when i think of how useful they could be... I feel like they are mostly disappointing.

I guess maybe the best bet is to take the toughness drug on a big squad and charge as much stuff as you can to reduce enemy shooting, but I don't know... seems they are abit frail.

For sure most will do Spear head of Black Heart with Ravagers

What about Airwing with BH? You get 1CP, 3 jets in 6+++ & counterspell stratagem.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I'm going to use Urien's one or the drukhari one that gives three traits if you have an archon, haemy or succubus in the same list.

You don't need to have all three. So long as you have an Archon as your warlord, you can use the stratagem. Which means you can easily dip into a small coven detachment in order for a quick and easy 0-2 free command points. I've no intention of using any cult units, so that's how I'll be using it. Sure, it won't be as efficient as getting that third warlord trait in, but it costs absolutely nothing.

An outrider detachment with a cheap succubus, two min squads of reavers and large squad of jetbikes could be a nice solution IMHO, that's what I'm looking for if I want all the three types of HQs. The bikes that can assault turn 1 are too tempting Coven spearhead with talos since I don't own any wracks and kabal battallion.

mmimzie wrote:
Sure, but I make the comparison because i tried similar tactics when I started out with the new craftworld codex as wind riders can very reasonable make a turn 1 charge in saim-hann. They even do better damage than the reavers end up putting out in early turns. So, again different army is super relavent, but when i think of how useful they could be... I feel like they are mostly disappointing.

I guess maybe the best bet is to take the toughness drug on a big squad and charge as much stuff as you can to reduce enemy shooting, but I don't know... seems they are abit frail.

Reavers with the +1 attack drug will do 3 S4 AP1 attacks. They can move 18", advance another 8" and then charge. So you have a threat range of 29"-39". With a reroll you would expect to make 36". So you can have your pick of targets unless they are literally bubblewrapped to the point where you can't make contact. Grav Talons will chuck out mortal wounds on a 4+ - so on average 2 in a max squad.
Without Red Grief you can have another attack and still get an average threat range of 18"+1"+2D6, so 26". So first turn charges against something are still likely. Cursed blade is unfortunately useless because of bladevanes.

By contrast aren't Windriders just 1 S3 attack each in melee?
Do you mean Shining Spears? They are generally considered to be quite good (incredibly so in Ynnari lists.)

 Primark G wrote:
I think the best armies will be mostly all shooting and highly mobile.

Back in 5th edition shooting was the way to go. But uou could not du pure shooting, you needed some element vs big blobs of units. That could be a baron beastmaster blob, 2 units of reavers ot anything else

I think something similar is true in 8th edition. Close combat is where you usually lay down a bunch of wounds. What this takes the form of we will see.

I also think almost mono haemonculy lists can work as well. T5 4++ at the worst is quite though.

I like Black Heart as a Rent-a-Car battalion detachment. All the mercenaries go in there to buy as many transports as I need. About 2/3 of my list, however, is actually Wych cult, but literally all the transports in the army are bought in the Black Heart detachment for that 6+++ raider and venom goodness.

 Niiai wrote:


I also think almost mono haemonculy lists can work as well. T5 4++ at the worst is quite though.

They lack ranged anti tank though. Ravagers and flyers have the <Kabal> keyword and you can't include them without breaking the obsession rule. At least the flyers have the <Wych cult> keyword.

A mono haemonculi list with only coven stuff is going to struggle, like any other "melee only" army, but you can spam scourges without breaking the obsession rule to get some effective anti tank.

A spearhead with an archon and three ravagers should work very well in a themed oriented list, it's not even 500 points. The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari

 Blackie wrote:
The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari

If you don't mind me asking, is there something about the Archon that you dislike?

How much point is a wrack, 9 points? For 600 points and some haemoncaly change you can have 60 T5 4++ 6+++ wounds in 1 wound compartments. I think many armies will have a hard time shooting them away. The grotesques would be T6 and 4++ 6+++ for 35 points, you would use these for offense.

It sounds rather robust in my ears.

You can of course blend in dakrlight as needed in the flying men or just airplaines.

On another note, regarding my previus statement on 5th edition. I know 5th edition had 4++ cover saves so melee was needed to pry them out of cover, but I stil think some melee element is needed in an shooting list.

 vipoid wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari

If you don't mind me asking, is there something about the Archon that you dislike?

The model mostly.

But also the fact that the succubus and lelith are my favorite models in the entire 40k catalogue and I also adore the coven stuff.

I don't hate the archon, and I don't even dislike him, I just love the other HQs way more, even rulewise.

 Blackie wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari

If you don't mind me asking, is there something about the Archon that you dislike?

The model mostly.

But also the fact that the succubus and lelith are my favorite models in the entire 40k catalogue and I also adore the coven stuff.

I don't hate the archon, and I don't even dislike him, I just love the other HQs way more, even rulewise.

Ah, I see.

I got around the model problem by using an albino Mandrake as my Archon.

 Blackie wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


I also think almost mono haemonculy lists can work as well. T5 4++ at the worst is quite though.

They lack ranged anti tank though. Ravagers and flyers have the <Kabal> keyword and you can't include them without breaking the obsession rule. At least the flyers have the <Wych cult> keyword.

A mono haemonculi list with only coven stuff is going to struggle, like any other "melee only" army, but you can spam scourges without breaking the obsession rule to get some effective anti tank.

A spearhead with an archon and three ravagers should work very well in a themed oriented list, it's not even 500 points. The most disappointing think about this codex is the fact that now I must bring at least an archon to make use of the ravagers and kabalites and get the obsession bonus. I've never taken an archon in my lists since I started playing drukhari

I mean, you could technically bring Drazhar as the HQ in a spearhead detachment with Ravagers and still have Kabal obsessions without an Archon.

Look the idea is not that you get some magical bonus by being pure haemoncaly. The idea is that they are strong enough that an archtype that mases them will prevent your opponent from chewing through them.

 Niiai wrote:
Look the idea is not that you get some magical bonus by being pure haemoncaly. The idea is that they are strong enough that an archtype that mases them will prevent your opponent from chewing through them.

I think it could work but I am not sure wracks do enough damage.

It might be strange to think about - but compare say 10 kabalites in a raider to say 15 wracks, as its about the same points.
I don't think the wracks are dramatically tougher - and they are considerably more limited. Being slower, having no (or negligible) shooting and an okay but not exceptional close combat ability.

The argument against this is that the raider is providing your opponents heavy guns with something worth shooting at and it might die to a few lucky lascannon or equivalent shots. (At 8-9 points per wound, 5++, potentially 6+++ its actually pretty tough.)
But then unless you were planning to have a Wrack tide, and a skewed list that makes heavy weapons a waste of points (see Ork lists) there will be something else for their heavy guns to target. Be it ravagers, or aircraft or Talos or whatever.

I think I'd minimise points in Wracks and focus on Grots as the core instead. They are more vulnerable to multi-wound weapons, but still pretty tough and do a lot more damage in close combat.

 Niiai wrote:
I understand the black heart apeal. Good relic, good stratagem, good warlord trait. But their general bonus is quite bad.

I really like the 6+ range. 42 ranged dark lances on very nimble and mobile platforms is incredebly strong.

Actually the general bonus is probably also the best. Having a 6+++ shrug on all the vehicles is better IMO then rerolling ones for rapid fire weapons or a bonus to movement nobody needs, or rerolling 1's on poison or the extra range on an insanely fast army. DE have and always will have a durability problem, that's the only obsession in the kabal traits that helps with that.

I feel like people are just parroting the same line about it being bad because initially everyone was considering it's bonus on infantry and forgot about the vehicles and because its a bit boring. BTW ravagers have a 36" range and move 14, you already have a 50" threat range meaning you can already range band las canons and missile launchers, the extra range is never a bad thing, but since it isn't needed I\d take the extra durability any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another factor to consider in regard to hellions, is that the evicerating fly by happens in the movement phase meaning you can roll 20 dice on a unit that is there to prevent your units from deep striking in turn 1. So clear them out on your way to work with hellions lol, then drop those units from reserve in that bloody spot where scouts used to be

Agreed with the man above. Black Heart is a nobrainer auto take. Competitive Drukhari will be crazy vehicle spams and the natural inv saves combined with the FNP, fly rule, speed and low points cost are what make them so good.

Tyel wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Look the idea is not that you get some magical bonus by being pure haemoncaly. The idea is that they are strong enough that an archtype that mases them will prevent your opponent from chewing through them.

I think it could work but I am not sure wracks do enough damage.

It might be strange to think about - but compare say 10 kabalites in a raider to say 15 wracks, as its about the same points.
I don't think the wracks are dramatically tougher - and they are considerably more limited. Being slower, having no (or negligible) shooting and an okay but not exceptional close combat ability.

The argument against this is that the raider is providing your opponents heavy guns with something worth shooting at and it might die to a few lucky lascannon or equivalent shots. (At 8-9 points per wound, 5++, potentially 6+++ its actually pretty tough.)
But then unless you were planning to have a Wrack tide, and a skewed list that makes heavy weapons a waste of points (see Ork lists) there will be something else for their heavy guns to target. Be it ravagers, or aircraft or Talos or whatever.

I think I'd minimise points in Wracks and focus on Grots as the core instead. They are more vulnerable to multi-wound weapons, but still pretty tough and do a lot more damage in close combat.

Just to play devils advocate here, wracks on foot can take up WAY more real estate and don't forget 15 wracks are potentially 15 obsec bodies for scoring while a raider with 10 kabs inside is 1 model lacking obsec.

I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.

Wracks seem hard to justify unless you're already wanting a Haemonculus and they can be near him at all times. They're reasonably durable, but without T5 they're still less durable than Guardsmen vs bolters. And I'm assuming they have a 4++ since the other traits are so much worse. Consider that T4 Wracks are only 19% more durable than Warriors per point vs bolters. Meanwhile they hit less hard than Warriors even on a per model basis, and they have to be in CC to do any damage at all without expensive special weapons. It seems like if you want a sticky obsec force you should probably just take Warriors, since they're only a little less durable vs small arms and will do a lot more damage.

Now, T5 helps them a lot vs bolters. Now they're 78% more durable than Warriors vs bolters and even 42% more durable than Guardsmen. Of course, now you have a 70 point Haemonculus babysitting them, and if all he's doing is buffing Wracks you probably need ~300 points of Wracks to make that worthwhile. And S4 is the best-case scenario for them -- T5 doesn't help nearly as much against higher strengths.

So they're pretty durable, and can be made extremely durable, but that's all they do. Then I think the question is: can you design a list to take advantage of their durability. Guard do this by bringing a lot of artillery and using durable Infantry screens. It's not clear to me that the same thing would work that well for Dark Eldar. Your obvious artillery unit is the Ravager, but it'll have to move closer, and anyway since it has Fly and can move 14" and fire at full effect it's not nearly as worried about enemies getting close. It's possible that a Wrack screen for a bunch of Dark Reapers makes sense, but I feel like you still probably do better with Warriors.

Edit: I'd also agree with a couple other people that Black Heart is the way to go on everything other than Warriors on foot. And note that you can mix-and-match Obsessions for units and the transports they're in. Your Venom can be Black Heart for a 6++ while the Warriors inside can get the full benefit of any of the other 3. So for example you could take a Black Heart Spearhead with an Archon, 3 Ravagers, and 4 Venoms, and then use those Venoms with your other units.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.

I'm of the same opinion, it's like the Mars dogma for AdMech, there's the best HQ and best stratagem in there, but in exchange the dogma is not the best (the best being, in my opinion, Stygies' -1 to hit). It's balancing.

But I'd rather have them make it Drukhari-wide so that you don't ALWAYS see the same army build every game.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.

I think its good, for a few reasons

1) Your vehicles get a 6+++, this is very strong when you have 9+ vehicles, if your 7 of your vehicles are Raiders/Ravagers in your Spearhead detachment (See below), that is 76 wounds.
1/6 of 76 dice rolls are 12.6, that is literally a full vehicle left alive or multi-vehicles no taking damage over a few turns.
2) You can take Black Heart vehicles for your other units (See below) to give all your shooting units transports a 6+++
3) Agents of Vect and WL trait to get more CP's
4) Relic for BH to gain re-rolls for all your Vehicles



If you see what i mean in the list, you can have 5 Ravagers and 5 Raiders with 6+++ and Re-roll 1's to Hit and wound and not counting the Warriors. And you still have over 300pts to add more.