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....and don't get a 4++ and PFP or easy access to a toughness buff, a solid gun per five, or a good sergeant weapon per five.

I'm not saying Wracks are as good as the first buffed-up 30 man blob of tzaangors, but they're damn similar to subsequent units of tzaangors you still happily see taken. They're durable for their points, have good transports and you don't need tons of them for a battalion or a brigade.

The difference is that every 4 wracks = 5, 40 Wracks = 50 Tzgors, and wounding on 3+ with -1ap vs 4+ 0ap Its numbers and damage vs survivability

But your missing the most important part, DE has Kabals, T-sons has Marines and Cultists to compare them too, when you have Wracks vs Kabals, easy Kabals win most the time, when you have Marines vs Tzgors? Well Tzgors win.

Edit: Spelling

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What type of builds do you guys think could reliably deal with flyrant spam?

If it's even still an issue i'd use 'masters of the shadowed sky' stratagem for kabal of the flayed skull. More particularly it should work best with your ravagers (needs to go on a kabal unit which most vehicles/flyers can be). Normally you need 3's to hit and 4's vs flyers (plane kind) but after you activate the 1 CP ability your unit gets +1 to hit so i can basically hit flying infantry and bikes on 2's and vs actual flyers 3's.

I'm enjoying my book so far but i have issues. I feel about half the stratagems are good and the rest are meh or not worth taking. We have so many though it's kind of a meh issue. My real issue is having so many freaking patrol detachments. 8 hq's (probably not all kabal) and at least 8 troops for tax is somewhat high. I may not spam stratagems as much as non-dark eldar players think i can. Honestly it may come down to me using about 4 during the first turn and maybe part of turn 2 and then being out of CP's.

Haywire got better but i still don't think it's enough for me to use em. Shredders got significantly better whereas before nobody took them. Shredders may be mediocre or above average now and probably our best anti-infantry shooting atm with just a glance but that was an area we always struggled at since 8th hit. Blasters got good enough to take but not sure that'll change my strategy too much.

Personally for my 2,000 pts list i took 2 detachments of 'kabal of poisoned tongue' and the reason is the stratagem where you can move 3 of said kabal's units anywhere in your deployment after deployment normally ends for just 2 CP. I can basically re-arrange my on foot battle-line and force everything into one corner of the board after tricking the opponent into thinking i was gonna spread out. Totally worth a try in my book unless vs long range gun-lines. The other detachment i took was speed of the kill and that was more for the cult's obsession which gets advance and charge and re-roll failed charge rolls. I did that for the reavers obviously.

Anyway i'm gonna webway portal 2 units only because the warriors would be stuck doing nothing if i didn't. So they'll deepstrike but sadly only 10 strong each. This is more due to model and money limitation than tactics. Also it's not easy to make a list with what i want when a new codex changes what's currently good. If i had my way i'd probably take a couple units of scourge with 4 shredders each. Combined with the warriors having 4 shredders in a unit of 20 models and having 2 of those units for 40 warriors i'd get probably 16 shredders. I don't think they're great but for anti-horde shooting they have some merit. It's probably an average of just over 35 hits and about as many wounds with all those shredders alone with -1 ap. We don't even know what else the other guns might do if there are any. However maybe i'm not taking cost into effect as i only just got the book like 24 hours ago. For scourge a squad of 5 guys with 4 shredders is like 92 points. For warriors it's more like 152 pts but the difference is having 32 poisoned shots at half range after DS vs like 3 to go with shredders. You could go 10 man scourge for same price though with same shredder load-out but that's only 18 poisoned shots extra. Poison still has a point (vs bikes, genestealers and some mid-line troops and tough poorly armored monstrous infantry) but it's not vs hordes and that's where shredders come in.

Our way of dealing with enemy horde infantry will probably be melee like wych and covens units.

The problem with Flyrant spam is their 4++. Taking Anti-Tank isn't viable so you need to burn them down with multiple shots to break though the "ignore 50% of everything" magic barrier. Disintegrator Cannons on Ravagers might work since they are 2 damage.

Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes? I've personally always preferred lances. Like, yeah, lower strength, but high AP and roll two pick one at half range, for 5 fewer points. And I feel like they fill a nice niche for mid-range toughness models you may not want to waste a blaster or lance shot on. And so many models can take blasters, seems like a good idea to have a bit of variety.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes? I've personally always preferred lances. Like, yeah, lower strength, but high AP and roll two pick one at half range, for 5 fewer points. And I feel like they fill a nice niche for mid-range toughness models you may not want to waste a blaster or lance shot on. And so many models can take blasters, seems like a good idea to have a bit of variety.

Blasters have options to hurt everything, TL do not, need extra punch on vehicle? S8 vs S6, need to kill MW t4? Wounds 2+ instead of 3+.

Mine already have TL's on them (well 6 of them does) so i'll just use HL's personally, but i rather them be Blasters

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes?

I used to like Heat Lances because they had more chance to penetrate armour (2d6+6+Lance was usually better than d6+8+Lance) and had twice the chance to explode the vehicle.

However, they're now significantly worse at penetrating armour and their increase in damage at half range is mediocre at best.

Hi guys!

Sorry to interupt the in-depth discussion. I've been building up a Dark Eldar (sorry - Drukhari) army for a few months but haven't played any games yet. I really like the look of the new codex, but I'm struggling to build an army out of the models I own at the moment. A mate of mine and I will hopefully be playing a 50 power level army pretty soon, so I'm trying to build a 50pl list. I mentioned a few pages back that I'm delighted that my list got about 20% cheaper, so I get to add more stuff, but separating everything out into the three types in order to make use of obsessions is proving tricky. At the moment, I can't get more than 4 command points (this includes the 3 for being battleforged.) These are the models I own:

1 Archon
1 Succubus
10 Wyches
20 Kabalite Warriors
9 Reavers
10 Hellions
5 Scourges
5 Incubi
5 Mandrakes
2 Raiders
1 Venom
1 Ur-Ghul
1 Razorwing Jetfighter

I was going to do an outrider detatchment with a cult obsession, and a vanguard (that's the elite one, right?) kabal one with the Incubi, Mandrakes, and Ur-Ghul as the elites. This would of course only give me one more CP anyway. Unfortunately it doesn't work as the Ur-Ghul wouldn't take up a detatchment slot. So I'd have to run that detatchment as a patrol. Can anyone see a solution that doesn't involve spending a load more money? I suppose I could buy another HQ (or proxy one in) and do the three patrols thing. Any other obvious solution anyone can see? I'm very excited to get my guys on the table. I'm certainly not looking for the most effective list, incidentally - the only reason I want more command points is to try out the cool tricks we can now do!

Thanks for reading. Sorry to ask such a low-level question.

 vipoid wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes?

I used to like Heat Lances because they had more chance to penetrate armour (2d6+6+Lance was usually better than d6+8+Lance) and had twice the chance to explode the vehicle.

However, they're now significantly worse at penetrating armour and their increase in damage at half range is mediocre at best.

Is it sad i would take blasters over heat lances now even with the points changes? Seriously the only way you could maybe half range with heat lances is on bikes now and it's probably not worth it as strength 6 is depressing at times vs strength 8 esp. considering if you're going to advance with the bikes anyway the chance to hit is going straight into the crapper for the cost and it's already worse to wound. At best heat lance are anti-elite infantry, bikers and medium sized units like hive guard.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes?

I used to like Heat Lances because they had more chance to penetrate armour (2d6+6+Lance was usually better than d6+8+Lance) and had twice the chance to explode the vehicle.

However, they're now significantly worse at penetrating armour and their increase in damage at half range is mediocre at best.

Is it sad i would take blasters over heat lances now even with the points changes? Seriously the only way you could maybe half range with heat lances is on bikes now and it's probably not worth it as strength 6 is depressing at times vs strength 8 esp. considering if you're going to advance with the bikes anyway the chance to hit is going straight into the crapper for the cost and it's already worse to wound. At best heat lance are anti-elite infantry, bikers and medium sized units like hive guard.

Well, I guess that's sort of my point. Anti elite-infantry is pretty much how I use them. Like, my average 2000 point list has blasters or DL on something like 20% of my models already, but not a ton to fill that gap between S8 weapons and Splinter and S3 weapons. Having some cheaper S6 weapons let's me focus blasters on the big stuff, while having a few spare points for extra anti-infantry models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just feel like I run into a ton of T5 models, where a heat lance is as effective as a DL/Blaster for fewer points.

Sorry i was more commenting on vipoid without seeing the comment he was commenting to.

I'd still say i'd rather use blasters. Str 8 seems to have far more utility (it can hurt tanks and monsters basically). I don't have to get super close to get the only really redeeming feature of it. The only boost outside of the re-rollable damage at suicide range is ap -5 and most things with an armor save that good also have some sort of invulnerable save of at least a 5+ making a blaster or dark lance's ap more than sufficient.

I suppose my big issue is the idea you'd have to advance, shoot something and then charge something else. Strength 6 is already bad enough but if you want me to hit on 4's it's just not gonna do it for me. Even if i don't advance i'm just not feeling it. Sorry i used to love the idea of heat lances but in 8th it's just no longer there. They were basically a tank popper back then.

So I am getting a bunch of Dark Eldar for around $250 US and I was wondering if I did alright. I think so, but I've only seen previews and what I've played around with on battlescribe. I think I got a solid start so far for a good price, though I have to do a bit of touch up work on the Venoms, Raiders and Incubi such as replacing sails or regluing some parts back on.

30 Kabalite Warriors, 3 Blasters, 3 Dark Lances
10 Incubi
10 Wyches
5 Scourges
3 Reavers
1 Archon
1 Haemunculous
1 Razorwing Jet Fighter
3 Raiders
2 Venoms
2 Ravagers

CaptainSomas wrote:
So I am getting a bunch of Dark Eldar for around $250 US and I was wondering if I did alright. I think so, but I've only seen previews and what I've played around with on battlescribe. I think I got a solid start so far for a good price, though I have to do a bit of touch up work on the Venoms, Raiders and Incubi such as replacing sails or regluing some parts back on.

30 Kabalite Warriors, 3 Blasters, 3 Dark Lances
10 Incubi
10 Wyches
5 Scourges
3 Reavers
1 Archon
1 Haemunculous
1 Razorwing Jet Fighter
3 Raiders
2 Venoms
2 Ravagers

I mean, that's somewhere around like $550, $600 worth of models.

That's actually similar to how I got into DE. Friend of mine gave me like 15 Reavers, 10 Scourges, 10 Wyches, 40 or so Kabs, 3 Raiders, a Ravager, a Crimson Hunter (that I converted to a razorwing), 2 archons, 2 Succubi, a haemi, a medusae, a lhamean, 15 hellions, and a couple other things for $100, was like $700-750 worth of models. Now whenever I buy new stuff I point out to my wife that I still haven't even reach the point that I've spent half of what my army is worth. Spoilers below on how that argument goes over.

CaptainSomas wrote:
So I am getting a bunch of Dark Eldar for around $250 US and I was wondering if I did alright. I think so, but I've only seen previews and what I've played around with on battlescribe. I think I got a solid start so far for a good price, though I have to do a bit of touch up work on the Venoms, Raiders and Incubi such as replacing sails or regluing some parts back on.

30 Kabalite Warriors, 3 Blasters, 3 Dark Lances
10 Incubi
10 Wyches
5 Scourges
3 Reavers
1 Archon
1 Haemunculous
1 Razorwing Jet Fighter
3 Raiders
2 Venoms
2 Ravagers

That's a great deal you picked up!

I'd recommend magnetizing the sails and poles on the Raiders, Ravagers and Venoms to prevent them from bending or being a general nuisance for storage.

Also, I must point this out, if we are running into t5-t6 "elite" units they don't normally have the vehicle keyword. Even tau crisis battlesuits are not vehicles. So in these instances our basic splinter weapons will do fine. 20 warriors with 2 splinter cannons rest bare costs 140 points and has 48 shots in double tap range, hits on 3's so 36 hits, wounds on 4's (oh look at the cute t5 tau.... Don't care) so 18 wounds, they will fail some of those saves. And if they kill your squad in retaliation who cares? It's 140pts, your dark eldar. You brought 40 more warriors right? And who shoots at warriors when they have hellions / reavers / ravagers / mandrakes / scourges / talos to shoot at? If my opponent is shooting my warriors it's either a case of nothing else in range or they simply are afraid of the wrong thing.


Also I want to say I love posion weapons. I know a lot of people don't seem to like them but they give us such a huge advantage over other armies. They take an enemy models stat and simply ignore it. Be it shooting at 20 guardsmen with the 20 warriors above (which would be 12 dead guardsmen), 10 Marines (6 dead marines) or a hive tyrant (6 wounds to a hive tyrant) your going to hurt whatever you throw the numbers at. And for the stuff that we don't hurt (vehicles) we have blasters and dark lances. Everything else is simply a nice additional tool for us to use, but in the end the basic, original weapons of the 3rd edition Dark Eldar will do all the work if you need them to. You can not say the same thing for other armies.

He sent me pics and some looked like they snapped off..not a deal breaker, I can glue or magnatize easier haha. But yeah, did the math and I'm coming out pretty well. Just need to pick up the book and see how to expand what I'm getting later on.

CaptainSomas wrote:
He sent me pics and some looked like they snapped off..not a deal breaker, I can glue or magnatize easier haha. But yeah, did the math and I'm coming out pretty well. Just need to pick up the book and see how to expand what I'm getting later on.

I mean, right off the bat, I'd say you want 9 more Reavers. Def a Succubus, so you can actually run a cult. I'd personally recommend another pack of Scourges, Scourge are beast. And some Haemi units to go with that Haemonculus; I'd recommend 2 Talos and a Cronos even if you run nothing else Coven. I'm kind of a fan of Hellions, but the points drop to Reavers made them less useful unless you're playing a really large match with points to spare.

What are people's feelings on Sslyth lately? You pay 3 times the price of a Wrack per model but they compare well to Coven of Twelve Wracks in terms of durability and thanks to their higher strength and all the re-rolls have pretty equal melee damage output while actually being able to contribute some ranged firepower into the mix as well. The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.

I'm wondering if Sslyth can be a way we can actually get some meaningful use out of a second Archon when taking two Kabal patrols.

Lithanial wrote:
What are people's feelings on Sslyth lately? You pay 3 times the price of a Wrack per model but they compare well to Coven of Twelve Wracks in terms of durability and thanks to their higher strength and all the re-rolls have pretty equal melee damage output while actually being able to contribute some ranged firepower into the mix as well. The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.

I'm wondering if Sslyth can be a way we can actually get some meaningful use out of a second Archon when taking two Kabal patrols.

Running one as a bodyguard/chaff for my melee blender Flayed Skull Archon. S5, T5, 3W with a 5++....he's a durable shooty-stabby snek for 27 points. Would take one just for your warlord to help prevent insta-gibs.

Lithanial wrote:
What are people's feelings on Sslyth lately? You pay 3 times the price of a Wrack per model but they compare well to Coven of Twelve Wracks in terms of durability and thanks to their higher strength and all the re-rolls have pretty equal melee damage output while actually being able to contribute some ranged firepower into the mix as well.

I've been contemplating using some with my Archon, since they'll have the same range as his Blaster or Soul Seeker.

The thing is, 4 of them seem rather expensive. Maybe just a couple?

Lithanial wrote:
The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.

Isn't their Ld irrelevant though, given that they're single-model units?

Azuza001 wrote:

Also I want to say I love posion weapons. I know a lot of people don't seem to like them but they give us such a huge advantage over other armies. They take an enemy models stat and simply ignore it. Be it shooting at 20 guardsmen with the 20 warriors above (which would be 12 dead guardsmen), 10 Marines (6 dead marines) or a hive tyrant (6 wounds to a hive tyrant) your going to hurt whatever you throw the numbers at. And for the stuff that we don't hurt (vehicles) we have blasters and dark lances. Everything else is simply a nice additional tool for us to use, but in the end the basic, original weapons of the 3rd edition Dark Eldar will do all the work if you need them to. You can not say the same thing for other armies.

I mean, this is why poison weapons aren't great. They're terrible against T3, and that's what you're most often going to want to shoot with them. They're pretty fairly priced against T4, but you tend not to see a whole bunch of T4, and what you do see will often have a 3+ save and possibly even multiple wounds such that other weapons do much more. And then they're merely okay against big monsters -- a Leviathan flyrant only pays about the same as a bolter Marine per 3+ wound, and even Mortarion isn't paying much more than this when you account for his FNP. High toughness units actually tend to pay less per wound than low toughness units; they're supposed to make up for it by being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Warriors are good because they're super-cheap, but you'd trade splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean, this is why poison weapons aren't great. They're terrible against T3, and that's what you're most often going to want to shoot with them. They're pretty fairly priced against T4, but you tend not to see a whole bunch of T4, and what you do see will often have a 3+ save and possibly even multiple wounds such that other weapons do much more. And then they're merely okay against big monsters -- a Leviathan flyrant only pays about the same as a bolter Marine per 3+ wound, and even Mortarion isn't paying much more than this when you account for his FNP. High toughness units actually tend to pay less per wound than low toughness units; they're supposed to make up for it by being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Warriors are good because they're super-cheap, but you'd trade splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.

I'd say that poison has gotten drastically worse against monsters.

Their wounds have increased dramatically since 5th, but poison shooting has barely improved at all.

 vipoid wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean, this is why poison weapons aren't great. They're terrible against T3, and that's what you're most often going to want to shoot with them. They're pretty fairly priced against T4, but you tend not to see a whole bunch of T4, and what you do see will often have a 3+ save and possibly even multiple wounds such that other weapons do much more. And then they're merely okay against big monsters -- a Leviathan flyrant only pays about the same as a bolter Marine per 3+ wound, and even Mortarion isn't paying much more than this when you account for his FNP. High toughness units actually tend to pay less per wound than low toughness units; they're supposed to make up for it by being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Warriors are good because they're super-cheap, but you'd trade splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.

I'd say that poison has gotten drastically worse against monsters.

Their wounds have increased dramatically since 5th, but poison shooting has barely improved at all.

Poison hasn't gotten better at all, its literally the same since 4th and its honestly worst now b.c of the wound chart, before S3-S4 would would on a 6+, now its 5+ vs our 4+, and if a 5+ to wound has AP, depending if its -1 or -2, its equal or even better than a 4+ AP-0

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Poison hasn't gotten better at all, its literally the same since 4th and its honestly worst now b.c of the wound chart, before S3-S4 would would on a 6+, now its 5+ vs our 4+, and if a 5+ to wound has AP, depending if its -1 or -2, its equal or even better than a 4+ AP-0

I was thinking in terms of price cuts, though even then I'm not sure they make up for the loss of The Duke or Splinter Racks being nerfed to hell.

And that's a very good point about the new to-wound chart.

I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"

I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.

Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.

If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"

I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.

Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.

If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.

That's good to know.

I don't suppose rerolling 1s via Flayed Skull makes any difference?

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"

I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.

Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.

If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.

That's good to know.

I don't suppose rerolling 1s via Flayed Skull makes any difference?

It definitely does - Flayed Skull makes Splinter Racks 25% more effective (assuming 7 rifles per raider). The racks net you 3.36 more hits from a raider, up from 9.33 on average with no racks.

I'm not entirely certain why people think they're so heavily nerfed, to be honest. Old splinter racks only gave more benefit if you had a splinter cannon in the squad, and were in rapid fire range, which tended to be a tall order in 7th when moving at all meant your SC was snapping, and your movement before shooting was capped at 6". Also, IIRC, back in 7th they costed 15 points.

I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.

For me it's quite clearly Flayed Skull, we struggle with anti infantry so getting more hits out of our splinter weapons goes some way to help with that whilst the extra 3" movement on our vehicles is excellent, Ravagers having a 50" threat range normally only get 2" of space to play with in deployment when going up against 48" weapons like lascannons, and thats just not enough, going to 5" will help a lot.

Obsidian Rose helps a lot in that respect as well though pushes the safety margin up to 8" instead, this gives me a lot more freedom in my set up. Voidravens with Dark Scythes gain nicely out of this as well, the DS is still the better weapon for it due to the more relaible and higher maximum damage out put but the 24" range along with the minimum 20" move has on occasion left me without any viable targets for it, pushing that out to 30" range will certainly help there. Trueborn with 18" range shredders could also be a very good option for clearing hords, I look forward to trying 2 squads in a Raider to see how much they do.

Poisoned Tongue I think is going to end up as more of a fluff choice. It's an OK buff to poisoned weapons but Flayed Skull works out better whilst Kabal is not the melee part of the army.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm not entirely certain why people think they're so heavily nerfed, to be honest. Old splinter racks only gave more benefit if you had a splinter cannon in the squad, and were in rapid fire range, which tended to be a tall order in 7th when moving at all meant your SC was snapping, and your movement before shooting was capped at 6". Also, IIRC, back in 7th they costed 15 points.

I was thinking more of 5th, tbh.

The reason I say they've been nerfed is that every other TL weapon had their shots doubled in 8th in place of the reroll. And then you have Splinter Racks, which gain you an extra hit on a to-hit roll of 6.

 Imateria wrote:
I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.

The other aspect for me is that I didn't sign up to Dark Eldar to play Imperial Guard.

Excuse me, waiter, I ordered an Archon, not a Master of Ordnance.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"

I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.

Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.

If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.

That's good to know.

I don't suppose rerolling 1s via Flayed Skull makes any difference?

It definitely does - Flayed Skull makes Splinter Racks 25% more effective (assuming 7 rifles per raider). The racks net you 3.36 more hits from a raider, up from 9.33 on average with no racks.

I'm not entirely certain why people think they're so heavily nerfed, to be honest. Old splinter racks only gave more benefit if you had a splinter cannon in the squad, and were in rapid fire range, which tended to be a tall order in 7th when moving at all meant your SC was snapping, and your movement before shooting was capped at 6". Also, IIRC, back in 7th they costed 15 points.

I didnt think about that, that is very good to know as well, sounds good.