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karandrasss wrote:

for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.

That doesn't sound right. If that's true, then Scourges do suck, because Ravagers get the added durability.

Scourges are a scalpel and anti-alpha strike unit, at the same time are our best unit against Necron QS vehicles they hold different roles.

You can make them as Anti-horde as wella nd they are effective for how cheap they are. with Fire and Fade could keep them for a couple turns.

The first list idea I had with the new book

Roll the Incubi and HQ's in a party bus, a unit of Strife wyches and a kabalite unit in each of the other raiders, and the red grief wyches and reavers go for a first turn charge and try to lock down as much as possible, then everything else comes in turn 2 to stab or shoot all that is unstabbed or shot

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:
An interesting idea. Are you talking about mass-charging all of your Kabalites in, without any dedicated CC units backing them up? On the one hand, it would be a good use of their rerolling 1's thanks to Poisoned Tongue, but on the other, I think it all really depends on what your target is and how weakened they are.

That's precisely what i'm intending. You could not charge in, remain crazy close to what remains of what you shot up and accept any return fire and counter charges but with the weight of small units there would just be too many ways for your opponent to work around you over-watch fire. Better in my mind to charge in to weakened units and steal the initiative to get a few more kills in to maximise any morale casualties; as well as take any nearby objectives by making full use of your "ObSec" rules. With Archon and Sslyth backing you up, it's not really a brawl most opposing units will want to stick around in.

Been further considering what would be the best Webway Portal support unit and for me it comes back to more Kabalites. Wyches could only make the charge straight from the portal less than 50% of the time which is not reliable enough and Wracks while durable would need a way for a Haemonculus to get near and are limited by the max unit size of 10.

Kabalites however can make an immediate impact when they arrive with complementary shooting and can actually be made quite durable if deployed in cover by using the "Hunt from the Shadows" stratagem to give them a 3+ save. You also have the option to bring your supporting unit in on turn 2 and likely not make your charge, but instead utilise the bonus from the Animus Vitae along with the "Architects of Pain" stratagem to make them immune to leadership tests.

The other fun part is that since this is all reliant on just 3 venoms, one of which is a valuable HQ transport you need to deploy rather carefully, but with it all being Poisoned Tongue you can make good use of their unique "Insidious Misdirection" stratagem to redeploy your whole assault wing if required. Taking all this into account I've condensed the core into a single Kabal battalion now that's looking as follows.



Comes in at 665 points so crazy cheap. Season with Agoniser/Chain-snares to taste. Turn 1 Alpha Strike lands 34 Splinter wounds on top of the 6 Shredders and whatever Soul-Seeker kills. All maps out to annihilating around 18 MEQ or 35 GEQ in one go.... rather brutal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:

for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.

That doesn't sound right. If that's true, then Scourges do suck, because Ravagers get the added durability.

Scourges are a scalpel and anti-alpha strike unit, at the same time are our best unit against Necron QS vehicles they hold different roles.

You can make them as Anti-horde as wella nd they are effective for how cheap they are. with Fire and Fade could keep them for a couple turns.

So you're saying it's only DL Scourges that are bad, compared to DL Ravagers. How about Blaster Scourges? How are Scourges anti-alpha strike? You can deepstrike Ravagers with a strategem.

Lithanial wrote:

Spoiler:

Archon - Huskblade, Splinter Pistol, Warlord, Animus Vitae, Soul Thirst
Archon - Huskblade, Soul-seeker
3 Sslyth
5 Kabalite Warriors - PGL, Shredder
5 Kabalite Warriors - PGL, Shredder
20 Kabalite Warriors - PGL, 4x Shredder
3 Venom

Just a point - would it not make more sense to swap the artefacts around? i.e. give your warlord Soul Seeker and let the secondary Archon carry the Animus.

It's up to you, but I'd have thought the warlord would prefer the artefact that can be fired more than once.

So, I'm planning on bringing wyches to what I know to be a fairly elite, and fairly shooty meta in an event on sunday. Painted, based and WYSIWYG are requirements, which means I have access to all the wych units other than Beasts, plus Scourges to create my list.

The event is 1000pts, one detachment, no named HQs. Among my opponents I know 6 are running MEQ, with 2 being pure primaris marines, 3 are running Tau, the only guard player is running tanks, and I've been talking tactics with a guy going pure Prophets of Flesh covens. Basically only a single horde army going to be at the event, which would ordinarily mean I might lean Kabal, but my wyches are all painted (and also my favorites).

Do you figure that Cursed Blade for the strength, or Red Grief for the alpha strike would do better here? I have two versions of the same list, 2 succubi, 3 wych squads, 5 hellions, 6 reavers, 5 scourges. Blasters for everybody because I feel like it'll be pretty vehicle heavy.

I must say I like the look of the Namarti Thralls. I think maiby I will use them as mandrakes. I think they come out as slightly cheaper, and I will have no problem with finecast. I normaly think finecast is fine, but thin weapons does not work sop great.

I was planning kabal troops, with some HQ and maybe a flyer. Wytches fast attack.

The elite slot would be an haemoncoly, 2 units of mandrakes and 1 unit of incubi.

Also the paint that follow the age of sigmar deepkin is great for DE flesh.

 vipoid wrote:
Just a point - would it not make more sense to swap the artefacts around? i.e. give your warlord Soul Seeker and let the secondary Archon carry the Animus.

It's up to you, but I'd have thought the warlord would prefer the artefact that can be fired more than once.

Was musing that one through, and my thinking is that since you are in theory clearing an objective, once you've done your turn 2 assault you are going to want to leave some troops behind with one of the Archons to hold it while the rest carry on advancing. Makes sense for the warlord to be the one advancing and getting stuck in with his Soul Thirst trait and Sslyth guard, fighting to the last. As such, the one you want hanging back will want the range of the pistol so he isn't just sat around waiting for someone to come near.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So far I am trying to figure out what to do with the models I have so far. I am leaning MSU with Venoms. What I have so far is the following;

Archon
Succubus
10 Kabalite Warriors
10 Wyches
6 Reavers
3 Venoms
1 Raider

Should I run the Kabalite Warriors as two groups with a Blaster each in Venoms, or as one big group in the Raider. I am thinking of getting a Haemonculus and some Wracks too.

I am thinking I might take the female Kabalite that is hanging off the Raider and turn her into another Archon.

I would take the Kabalites in the venoms and the wyches in the raider. Really I see very little value in running small groups of wyches. There really isn't much you can do with the units you have right now other than just take them.

Looking at what you have you are lacking some dedicated anti-tank. A ravager would be nice for that or some scourge. Play a few small games and figure out what you like.

Perfect, I was thinking of doing just that with the Wyches and Kabalites. I will look into a Ravager or Scourges. Probably a Ravager though.

Lithanial wrote:
So some potentially interesting thoughts over-night as I continue to develop this infantry-focused core out. People have been slating splinter fire a bit so I figured I would do some maths

Splinter Shot = 0.333 Wounds
Splinter Shot + Archon Aura = 0.389 Wounds
Splinter Shot + Poisoned Tongue = 0.389 Wounds
Splinter Shot + Both = 0.454 Wounds

Shuriken Catapult Shot vs T3 = 0.444 Wounds
Shuriken Catapult Shot vs T4 = 0.333 Wounds

So it's pretty easy to make your splinter fire 36% stronger than default without too much hassle and it actually pushes you a touch above unbuffed Shuriken fire against hordes, becoming better the higher the toughness goes. Sure the armour rend is a thing but you have a solid range advantage to utilise.

It's really weird to leave out the shuriken rending rule since it's such a huge part of their output. A shuriken shot kills 0.33 GEQs compared to a splinter's 0.22. For MEQs it's 0.17 vs 0.11. That is, it's 50% better in the two most common cases. And the extra range is only going to be a huge deal if you're on foot. You would trade all your splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.

Edit: To be clear, Warriors are generally better than Guardians except as a deep-striking squad of 20, but it's mostly because they're just much cheaper (and a bit more durable).

Dionysodorus wrote:
It's really weird to leave out the shuriken rending rule since it's such a huge part of their output. A shuriken shot kills 0.33 GEQs compared to a splinter's 0.22. For MEQs it's 0.17 vs 0.11. That is, it's 50% better in the two most common cases. And the extra range is only going to be a huge deal if you're on foot. You would trade all your splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.

Except you are not taking into account the correct buffs to splinter fire. With Archon and Poison Tongue you get 0.151 kill per shot vs MEQ and 0.302 vs GEQ which is not a wide difference.

Sure Shuriken can get a re-roll on 1's to hit as well if you go Biel-tan, or have an Autarch nearby but Autarchs are rare with better things to do, and Biel-tan is one of the least competitive Craftworlds so also rare. Add on the range advantage of Splinter fire and the fact Drukhari actually have open-topped transports to make use of splinter fire in good quantities and you find that splinter fire isn't exactly anywhere near as disadvantaged as some have been trying to make out.

Lithanial wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
It's really weird to leave out the shuriken rending rule since it's such a huge part of their output. A shuriken shot kills 0.33 GEQs compared to a splinter's 0.22. For MEQs it's 0.17 vs 0.11. That is, it's 50% better in the two most common cases. And the extra range is only going to be a huge deal if you're on foot. You would trade all your splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.

Except you are not taking into account the correct buffs to splinter fire. With Archon and Poison Tongue you get 0.151 kill per shot vs MEQ and 0.302 vs GEQ which is not a wide difference.

Sure Shuriken can get a re-roll on 1's to hit as well if you go Biel-tan, or have an Autarch nearby but Autarchs are rare with better things to do, and Biel-tan is one of the least competitive Craftworlds so also rare. Add on the range advantage of Splinter fire and the fact Drukhari actually have open-topped transports to make use of splinter fire in good quantities and you find that splinter fire isn't exactly anywhere near as disadvantaged as some have been trying to make out.

...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?

Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?

the_scotsman wrote:
...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?

Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?

Doom & Jinx are usable by splinter weaponry as well though, since Aeldari mix is a thing if you want it to be. As such that gets removed from any weapon comparison equation as they are not exclusive to one weapon or the other. Guide is pretty much a moot point since most Farseer loadouts would rather use Smite/Executioner or if they do take guide would be using it on War Walkers.

It's not that an Autarch can't be near an emerging Guardian blob, it's that even if you do take one he wants to be elsewhere as Craftworlds have vastly more powerful guns to be giving his aura to or you have a laser lance Autarch who is busy charging with his Shining Spear buddies. Then given that the majority of competitive craftworlds list that have been seen have been Alaitoc/Ynnari focused I would indeed say that it's unrealistic to see a Guardian blob being Biel-Tan.

Lithanial wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?

Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?

Doom & Jinx are usable by splinter weaponry as well though, since Aeldari mix is a thing if you want it to be. As such that gets removed from any weapon comparison equation as they are not exclusive to one weapon or the other. Guide is pretty much a moot point since most Farseer loadouts would rather use Smite/Executioner or if they do take guide would be using it on War Walkers.

It's not that an Autarch can't be near an emerging Guardian blob, it's that even if you do take one he wants to be elsewhere as Craftworlds have vastly more powerful guns to be giving his aura to or you have a laser lance Autarch who is busy charging with his Shining Spear buddies. Then given that the majority of competitive craftworlds list that have been seen have been Alaitoc/Ynnari focused I would indeed say that it's unrealistic to see a Guardian blob being Biel-Tan.

It is exceedingly easy to ensure that your autarch is both within range of a deep striking guardian blob and performing his own optimum function. This is exactly how we've been seeing guardian blobs used in competitive play.

Nobody is arguing that you CANT use a warrior blob instead, just that it's pointless to discuss as a competitive option because CWE guardians are highly similar and are, quite simply, better at the very same job.

Their guns with no buffs start stronger.

Their guns with buffs end up stronger.

They deep strike and fire from the very same optimum range.

they deep strike using the same stratagem, for the same cost.

They both have access to the very same optional follow up stratagems (-1 to hit on demand, Fire and Fade)

The only functional difference is that the guardians have more optimal buff HQs (The autarch does not solely exist to buff that 20-squad of guardians, it's something he does WHILE doing something else that's useful), the guardians have more buffs available (Besides just jinx they could get Conceal, Quicken, Embolden, Protect, Fortune, Guide, Will of Asuran, Celestial Shield, Discipline of the Black Guardians, The Avatar Aura, etc). Oh, and the Guardians could if they wanted to attack a vehicle and not wound it on 6s, the Warriors can't do that.

The fact that you have to bring up "oh, I could bring some CWE HQs to gain my warriors access to a couple of the myriad psychic powers I could get on Guardians" pretty much highlights the issue: you can do this tactic, but it's never going to see comparable results as doing it with another unit that exists within the same blanket faction.

And that is actually OK. Eldar Guardian units' shtick has always been that they use tons of buffs and debuffs to make their low-quality troops function like super high quality troops. It's what they're good at. Where Kabalites are superior is mechanized fighting from transports, which guardians are rubbish at comparatively. Using each for the role they're less optimized for is completely possible, but it's disingenuous to pretend that they aren't less optimized for it.

the_scotsman wrote:
It is exceedingly easy to ensure that your autarch is both within range of a deep striking guardian blob and performing his own optimum function. This is exactly how we've been seeing guardian blobs used in competitive play.

Nobody is arguing that you CANT use a warrior blob instead, just that it's pointless to discuss as a competitive option because CWE guardians are highly similar and are, quite simply, better at the very same job.

Their guns with no buffs start stronger.

Their guns with buffs end up stronger.

They deep strike and fire from the very same optimum range.

they deep strike using the same stratagem, for the same cost.

They both have access to the very same optional follow up stratagems (-1 to hit on demand, Fire and Fade)

The only functional difference is that the guardians have more optimal buff HQs (The autarch does not solely exist to buff that 20-squad of guardians, it's something he does WHILE doing something else that's useful), the guardians have more buffs available (Besides just jinx they could get Conceal, Quicken, Embolden, Protect, Fortune, Guide, Will of Asuran, Celestial Shield, Discipline of the Black Guardians, The Avatar Aura, etc). Oh, and the Guardians could if they wanted to attack a vehicle and not wound it on 6s, the Warriors can't do that.

The fact that you have to bring up "oh, I could bring some CWE HQs to gain my warriors access to a couple of the myriad psychic powers I could get on Guardians" pretty much highlights the issue: you can do this tactic, but it's never going to see comparable results as doing it with another unit that exists within the same blanket faction.

And that is actually OK. Eldar Guardian units' shtick has always been that they use tons of buffs and debuffs to make their low-quality troops function like super high quality troops. It's what they're good at. Where Kabalites are superior is mechanized fighting from transports, which guardians are rubbish at comparatively. Using each for the role they're less optimized for is completely possible, but it's disingenuous to pretend that they aren't less optimized for it.

You've kind of missed the point though. At no point have I argued one 20 man drop team to be the absolute above the other, just that splinter fire and Kabalites are not as far off from Guardians firepower as some people have been making out. I could quite happily do that though since the 4 shredders Kabalites can pack will rip apart 4.15 MEQ while at best the 2 Star-cannon & 4 extra catapult shots will only kill 2.22 MEQ so when you actually compare the 100% unbuffed squads you get.

20 Kabalite, 4 Shredders, 2 Splinter Cannon = 8.59 MEQ kills, 172 Points
20 Guardians + 2 Starcannon = 8.15 MEQ kills, 200 points

Add buffs to taste from there. More kills, less points. Go figure.

Right. Almost like the guardians are priced based on access to an extremely high number of buffs, and kabalite warriors are priced based on access to fewer buffs, making a squad configuration with minimal thought to buffing more optimal on Kabalites (i.e. MSU) and a squad configuration that maximises the ability to put buffs on more optimal on guardians (i.e. max sized block).

karandrasss wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:

for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.

That doesn't sound right. If that's true, then Scourges do suck, because Ravagers get the added durability.

Scourges are a scalpel and anti-alpha strike unit, at the same time are our best unit against Necron QS vehicles they hold different roles.

You can make them as Anti-horde as wella nd they are effective for how cheap they are. with Fire and Fade could keep them for a couple turns.

So you're saying it's only DL Scourges that are bad, compared to DL Ravagers. How about Blaster Scourges? How are Scourges anti-alpha strike? You can deepstrike Ravagers with a strategem.

Yes DL Scourges are not very viable anymore.

Which is a crying shame, because I broke my "never build a model just for the rules" rule and built a squad with 4 dark lances back when the index first dropped.

Azuza001 wrote:
I have a weird draw to homonculus with hex rifles..... Screened by talos lol.

I'm also feeling he's rifle on the Haemi, his 2+ gives him the best utility on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Which is a crying shame, because I broke my "never build a model just for the rules" rule and built a squad with 4 dark lances back when the index first dropped.

Same. Now I'm wondering if I can salvage all these shredder heads I cut off to glue blast pistol heads to the bodies and put them on my lance Scourges to turn them into shredders.

So...I'll have blasters made from shredders and shredders made from dark lances. And a bunch of dark lance barrels sitting around.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I have a weird draw to homonculus with hex rifles..... Screened by talos lol.

I'm also feeling he's rifle on the Haemi, his 2+ gives him the best utility on it.

he's def a better platform. But sniper weapons only work if you have a critical mass of them, so you'll want them on everyone who can take them (or nobody cuz the ossificator is good too)

Azuza001 wrote:
I have a weird draw to homonculus with hex rifles..... Screened by talos lol.

I mean, you're taking a 5pt gun either way, and the Hexrifle will probably get to fire more than the Stinger Pistol.

Yeah, I feel like if you're not an adherent to the "Surely nice GW will not take my options from the index away!" religion, Hexrifle is an obvious choice over a stinger.

...Which means that for my haemonculus, I'll need to find a 28mm miniature popgun for the haemonculus' puppet, because the puppet has to have his weaponry.

Hey, a little thought I just had. With the stratagem "An esoteric kill, from afar" from Black Creed we could snipe a character with a Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey, a little thought I just had. With the stratagem "An esoteric kill, from afar" from Black Creed we could snipe a character with a Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.

You could do that. But do not be afraid to dream a little bigger darlig. Use the tantalus.

I've been busy working away with math-hammer distilling down the Aeldari anti-vehicle options into a "Cost per damage" metric at T5-8 and it had been coming out with some interesting results.

Most of the widely viewed good anti-vehicle options work out around the 30-32 points per damage bracket for all but the toughest T8 targets. In this pool you have Ravagers, Crimson Hunters, Dark Reapers, full strength scourge squads, even a Wraithknight using a Titanic Ghostglaive works out around this. The few standouts so far have been:

1st Place - Fire Dragons, by far the most efficient even outside of the extra damage range at ~15 points per damage. Downsides as we all know, are getting them close and lack of durability
2nd Place - Min sized Haywire scourges at ~18-20 points per damage. Massive durability issue when taken this small but comes pre-packed with mobility
3rd Place - Fire Prisms with linked-fire stratagem at ~25.5 points per damage. Solidly versatile but a CP drain
3rd Place - Wraithguard with Wraithcannons also come in at ~25.5 points per damage. Great durability, poor speed
5th Place - Crimson Hunter Exarch, at ~28 points per damage which just beats out the Hemlock at T7 even with Smite. The anti-fly rerolls which drop this down to ~21 points per damage, landing 8.3 damage each in one salvo.

Special Mention: Hemlock Wraithfighter at a mixed ~24.5 points per damage up to T6 then ~29 points per damage for beyond but has the possibility of a good amount of its damage being shut down by opposing psykers.
---

It's a little disappointing that the only thing Drukhari seem to have that comes close to the efficiency of the Craftworlds for dedicated tank busting units is small units of Scourges but I guess it's testament to the more generalist nature of the army - little bits of anti-tank scattered throughout.

That said, it's crazy tempting to ally an Air Wing of 1x Hemlock 2x Crimson Hunter Exarch. You could get some real use out of the Hemlock's Mindshock pods and having a means of psychic denial.

 Niiai wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey, a little thought I just had. With the stratagem "An esoteric kill, from afar" from Black Creed we could snipe a character with a Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.

You could do that. But do not be afraid to dream a little bigger darlig. Use the tantalus.

Or a Reaper. You basically pay 20-ish points over a DL ravager for the ability to use the stratagem to thwack a pesky character.

Lithanial wrote:
I've been busy working away with math-hammer distilling down the Aeldari anti-vehicle options into a "Cost per damage" metric at T5-8 and it had been coming out with some interesting results.

Most of the widely viewed good anti-vehicle options work out around the 30-32 points per damage bracket for all but the toughest T8 targets. In this pool you have Ravagers, Crimson Hunters, Dark Reapers, full strength scourge squads, even a Wraithknight using a Titanic Ghostglaive works out around this. The few standouts so far have been:

1st Place - Fire Dragons, by far the most efficient even outside of the extra damage range at ~15 points per damage. Downsides as we all know, are getting them close and lack of durability
2nd Place - Min sized Haywire scourges at ~18-20 points per damage. Massive durability issue when taken this small but comes pre-packed with mobility
3rd Place - Fire Prisms with linked-fire stratagem at ~25.5 points per damage. Solidly versatile but a CP drain
3rd Place - Wraithguard with Wraithcannons also come in at ~25.5 points per damage. Great durability, poor speed
5th Place - Crimson Hunter Exarch, at ~28 points per damage which just beats out the Hemlock at T7 even with Smite. The anti-fly rerolls which drop this down to ~21 points per damage, landing 8.3 damage each in one salvo.

Special Mention: Hemlock Wraithfighter at a mixed ~24.5 points per damage up to T6 then ~29 points per damage for beyond but has the possibility of a good amount of its damage being shut down by opposing psykers.
---

It's a little disappointing that the only thing Drukhari seem to have that comes close to the efficiency of the Craftworlds for dedicated tank busting units is small units of Scourges but I guess it's testament to the more generalist nature of the army - little bits of anti-tank scattered throughout.

That said, it's crazy tempting to ally an Air Wing of 1x Hemlock 2x Crimson Hunter Exarch. You could get some real use out of the Hemlock's Mindshock pods and having a means of psychic denial.

How'd that look like if the target had 4++? I swear Fire Prisms are the worst against daemon primarchs, Wraithguard being a close second.

karandrasss wrote:
How'd that look like if the target had 4++? I swear Fire Prisms are the worst against daemon primarchs, Wraithguard being a close second.

Depends if the target is a vehicle or a monster. Most things jump over 50 points per wound but you do get something rather hilarious as Mandrakes become decent.

1st - Haywire Scourges at 18 points per wound but only vs vehicles
2nd - Fire Dragons at ~31 points per wound
3rd - Mandrake Baleblast at 36 points per wound
4th - Dark Reapers at 43.5 points per wound

Dark reapers massively fall of against T8 however and Fire Prisms with linked fire bump them off 4th place against normal targets.

If the target is a monster, Razorwings come off surprisingly well when using Disintegrator Cannons combined with their Necro-Toxin missiles to be 38 points per wound vs T5, and ~47 points vs anything tougher. But that's only due to the strength of poison against monsters. In comparison, Kabalites in rapid fire range achieve 27 points per wound without any firing buffs.

If the target flies, Crimson Hunter Exarch still do well at 39 points per wound to T7 and less, and ~46 points to T8.

Any thoughts on our artefacts?

I know the Writ of the Living Muse, the Djin Blade and the Succubus weapons are good. However, I'm curious about the artefacts that haven't been talked about much:
- Parasite's Kiss
- Helm of Spite
- Nightmare Doll
- Soul Seeker
- Obsidian Veil
- Phial Bouquet
- Spirit Sting
- Flensing Blade

What do we think of these?

Lithanial wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?

Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?

Doom & Jinx are usable by splinter weaponry as well though, since Aeldari mix is a thing if you want it to be. As such that gets removed from any weapon comparison equation as they are not exclusive to one weapon or the other. Guide is pretty much a moot point since most Farseer loadouts would rather use Smite/Executioner or if they do take guide would be using it on War Walkers.

It's not that an Autarch can't be near an emerging Guardian blob, it's that even if you do take one he wants to be elsewhere as Craftworlds have vastly more powerful guns to be giving his aura to or you have a laser lance Autarch who is busy charging with his Shining Spear buddies. Then given that the majority of competitive craftworlds list that have been seen have been Alaitoc/Ynnari focused I would indeed say that it's unrealistic to see a Guardian blob being Biel-Tan.

I'm not a tournament player or anything, but I am a Biel-tan player who frequently uses 20-man Guardian Blobs with 2 Shuriken Cannons from the Webway. I usually only buff them with Doom, since it ensures the target will eventually die, not just from guardian only fire if necessary. I play Biel-tan because it makes a lot of the core of my army function as if it had an Autarch around, without actually sinking points on the model (I find them fairly underwhelming, especially given the strength of the psychic powers you have to trade for them).

I really see no scenario outside of kiting at more than 12" where Kabalites can keep up with the Guardian in terms of offensive output. Doom on an Infantry squad facing 36 4 STR Shuriken shots + 6 6 STR shots... you should wipe them out, or at least put a large hole in them. But the more significant stat is what these guys can do on harder targets (Rhinos, Dreadnoughts, etc) - wounding on 5's, shredding on 6's, with rerolls. That's what I love getting into. And that flexibility is where Kabalites cannot compete. Even if we go vs a Leman Russ, so they're both wounding on 6's, that Rend is still significant. I think where Kabalites actually have the advantage over Guardians is on things like Guardsmen and Cultists... they'll inflict a few less wounds, but their cost offsets this enough (being 25% cheaper).

As for Kabalites... I think my wife plans on making minimum squads on Venoms with Blaster weapons. She hasn't put it on the table yet, but her list is pretty much gravitating to Kabalites on Venoms and Wyches on Raiders, which seems to be the prevailing thought.