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 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on our artefacts?

I know the Writ of the Living Muse, the Djin Blade and the Succubus weapons are good. However, I'm curious about the artefacts that haven't been talked about much:
- Parasite's Kiss
- Helm of Spite
- Nightmare Doll
- Soul Seeker
- Obsidian Veil
- Phial Bouquet
- Spirit Sting
- Flensing Blade

What do we think of these?

Parasites Kiss: Not bad, but IMO overshadowed by other pistol options now.

Helm of Spite: Autoinclude if vs lots of psykers. Absolutely awesome on anyone.

Nightmare Doll: Largely unnecessary IMO. The haemonculus is already a bear to kill for his points value, he doesn't necessarily need durability increases. Additional utility (Helm of Spite) or additional damage (spirit sting/Parasites kiss/flensing blade) would seem to be a better deal for him.

Soul seeker: Others seem to like it a lot more than me. Objectively, it seems...fine. Fun to be sure. But I think I'd always take the djin blade on a combat archon, especially with it getting rerolls to wound if you're poison tongue.

Obsidian veil: Another one others seem to like more than me. I dislike it because it doesn't help me while my Shadowfield is up to tank small arms fire I don't want to waste a shadowfield roll on. By contrast, The armor of misery lets me tank all the bolter shots I like on a 3+ save and I get to keep my shadowfield for plasma pistols, lascannons and the like. Against anything ap-1 or 0 it is equivalent to the Veil, or better, AND it works when my field is up, AND it gives me a -1 to hit in melee as a cherry on top. Flayed skull is great, just not for the relic.

Phial bouquet: Pure silliness. Tryptch whip works better on a Strife succubus because it combos nicely with the WL trait, this thing just...does random stuff. 2/6 drugs on succubi are whammies anyway (LD and WS) so odds are good you're just not getting anything, and even then you'll get stuff like +T when up against a S5 enemy, +Mov while in combat..just too random. But, the druggubus build (Extra drug trait, plus phial bouquet, roll them all randomly and use the Hyperstimm stratagem on her) has poential to be absolutely hilarious.

Spirit Sting: I actually like this one a lot. I've tried it on my Haemonculus and it's a great duelist weapon, pretty much auto-hits, auto-wounds and deals 1-2 damage highly reliably against anything. Too bad that Dark Creed you realy have to build an army around to get mileage out of them.

Flensing Blade: Super fun when paired with an ichor injector and +1 to wound trait to make the MURDERMONCULUS. I'm of the strong opinion that coven of 12 is underrated because it favors a playstyle many people don't use with their covens, i.e. mechanized fast assault infantry, with raiders full of haemonculi+Grots, raiders full of double-wrack squads, and venoms with wrack squads.

Lithanial wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
How'd that look like if the target had 4++? I swear Fire Prisms are the worst against daemon primarchs, Wraithguard being a close second.

Depends if the target is a vehicle or a monster. Most things jump over 50 points per wound but you do get something rather hilarious as Mandrakes become decent.

1st - Haywire Scourges at 18 points per wound but only vs vehicles
2nd - Fire Dragons at ~31 points per wound
3rd - Mandrake Baleblast at 36 points per wound
4th - Dark Reapers at 43.5 points per wound

Dark reapers massively fall of against T8 however and Fire Prisms with linked fire bump them off 4th place against normal targets.

If the target is a monster, Razorwings come off surprisingly well when using Disintegrator Cannons combined with their Necro-Toxin missiles to be 38 points per wound vs T5, and ~47 points vs anything tougher. But that's only due to the strength of poison against monsters. In comparison, Kabalites in rapid fire range achieve 27 points per wound without any firing buffs.

If the target flies, Crimson Hunter Exarch still do well at 39 points per wound to T7 and less, and ~46 points to T8.

Interesting. Experience fits the math. Math-wise, what makes Fire Prisms/Wraithguard so much worse against T7 4++?

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I'm not a tournament player or anything, but I am a Biel-tan player who frequently uses 20-man Guardian Blobs with 2 Shuriken Cannons from the Webway. I usually only buff them with Doom, since it ensures the target will eventually die, not just from guardian only fire if necessary. I play Biel-tan because it makes a lot of the core of my army function as if it had an Autarch around, without actually sinking points on the model (I find them fairly underwhelming, especially given the strength of the psychic powers you have to trade for them).

I really see no scenario outside of kiting at more than 12" where Kabalites can keep up with the Guardian in terms of offensive output. Doom on an Infantry squad facing 36 4 STR Shuriken shots + 6 6 STR shots... you should wipe them out, or at least put a large hole in them. But the more significant stat is what these guys can do on harder targets (Rhinos, Dreadnoughts, etc) - wounding on 5's, shredding on 6's, with rerolls. That's what I love getting into. And that flexibility is where Kabalites cannot compete. Even if we go vs a Leman Russ, so they're both wounding on 6's, that Rend is still significant. I think where Kabalites actually have the advantage over Guardians is on things like Guardsmen and Cultists... they'll inflict a few less wounds, but their cost offsets this enough (being 25% cheaper).

As for Kabalites... I think my wife plans on making minimum squads on Venoms with Blaster weapons. She hasn't put it on the table yet, but her list is pretty much gravitating to Kabalites on Venoms and Wyches on Raiders, which seems to be the prevailing thought.

Ok i'll bite.

If you are indeed playing as Biel-tan then the Doom cast is completely redundant since they on average will wipe out 9.33 MEQ so the last will generally flee to morale. Interestingly the Biel-Tan squad without doom and the Poison Tongue squad without Archon both do exactly the same amount of damage, but again the Poison Tongue squad is cheaper in points.

Then for performance against vehicles, the Poison Tongue squad is not as bad as you would think since they will still do exactly the same amount of damage to a T6 vehicle as the Biel-Tan squad and vastly beat the guardians vs T8. The only actual advantage the Biel-tan squad has is vs T7 vehicles where they are a touch better at finishing off a wounded vehicle, resulting in 3.74 damage to the Guardians vs 3.24 to the Kabalites.

That makes the whole extra performance case for Guardians sit on the usage of Doom, which is a discussion about Farseers, not a discussion about Kabalites vs Guardians.

the_scotsman wrote:

Parasites Kiss: Not bad, but IMO overshadowed by other pistol options now.

Helm of Spite: Autoinclude if vs lots of psykers. Absolutely awesome on anyone.

Nightmare Doll: Largely unnecessary IMO. The haemonculus is already a bear to kill for his points value, he doesn't necessarily need durability increases. Additional utility (Helm of Spite) or additional damage (spirit sting/Parasites kiss/flensing blade) would seem to be a better deal for him.

Soul seeker: Others seem to like it a lot more than me. Objectively, it seems...fine. Fun to be sure. But I think I'd always take the djin blade on a combat archon, especially with it getting rerolls to wound if you're poison tongue.

Obsidian veil: Another one others seem to like more than me. I dislike it because it doesn't help me while my Shadowfield is up to tank small arms fire I don't want to waste a shadowfield roll on. By contrast, The armor of misery lets me tank all the bolter shots I like on a 3+ save and I get to keep my shadowfield for plasma pistols, lascannons and the like. Against anything ap-1 or 0 it is equivalent to the Veil, or better, AND it works when my field is up, AND it gives me a -1 to hit in melee as a cherry on top. Flayed skull is great, just not for the relic.

Phial bouquet: Pure silliness. Tryptch whip works better on a Strife succubus because it combos nicely with the WL trait, this thing just...does random stuff. 2/6 drugs on succubi are whammies anyway (LD and WS) so odds are good you're just not getting anything, and even then you'll get stuff like +T when up against a S5 enemy, +Mov while in combat..just too random. But, the druggubus build (Extra drug trait, plus phial bouquet, roll them all randomly and use the Hyperstimm stratagem on her) has poential to be absolutely hilarious.

Spirit Sting: I actually like this one a lot. I've tried it on my Haemonculus and it's a great duelist weapon, pretty much auto-hits, auto-wounds and deals 1-2 damage highly reliably against anything. Too bad that Dark Creed you realy have to build an army around to get mileage out of them.

Flensing Blade: Super fun when paired with an ichor injector and +1 to wound trait to make the MURDERMONCULUS. I'm of the strong opinion that coven of 12 is underrated because it favors a playstyle many people don't use with their covens, i.e. mechanized fast assault infantry, with raiders full of haemonculi+Grots, raiders full of double-wrack squads, and venoms with wrack squads.

Thanks for that writeup, Scotsman.

- I like the idea of Parasite's Kiss, but I think the current artefact rules hurt it. It seems like a tertiary option, but throwing it on an HQ for 5pts is quite different to having to pay 3CPs for it.

- Just a point but Poison Tongue doesn't actually give you rerolls to-wound with the Djin Blade (since it's an artefact).

- Regarding the Soul Seeker, it does give you some nice utility in terms of being able to snipe characters or fire at units out of LoS. Might be useful in situations where melee is dangerous and you don't want to risk your warlord. I can definitely see why you'd pick Djin Blade instead, though you could still have the Soul Seeker as a secondary artefact (if you have 2+ Archons).

- In terms of Obsidian Veil vs. Armour of Misery, I'm honestly torn. I do see your point about being able to use the Armour of misery against weaker shooting, so that you can save your 2++ for plasma and the like. However, once you fail that Shadowfield save, all you've got from then on is your armour. The Veil means you'll always have a 4++ (and if you're being shot by lasguns or bolters, you can always choose to take them on your 5+/6+++ save to preserve your Shadowfield). I'm not saying you're wrong - just explaining why I'd be hesitant to pick the Armour over the Veil.

(I agree with everything else you've said.)

Yeah, but in my experience, if I've failed my veil save, I've generally failed it against a melta gun or lascannon or something and my archon is either dead or nearly dead anyway. To me the distinction between being left with a 4++ and being left with a 3+ and -1 to hit in melee is pretty minimal because odds are good I'm dead shortly afterwards either way.

Unless you're taking the veil and just using your 2++ against any old shooting that comes your way, which seems like a good way to not get nearly as much value out of a potentially really awesome rule.

The biggest point the veil has over the armor for me is Flayed Skull over Obsidian Rose.

I must say, it is incredibly refreshing to have only put 1-2 artifacts out of our list of a dozen or so in the dustbin after one look. Compares pretty favorably to every other codex I've gotten for an army I play. I'm going to be spending a lot of cps on them I think. Really, the only never-include for me is the Animus. Shame because I loved using the Animus in my freakshow army in 7th ed.

Vipoid, Parasite's Kiss is free, not 5 pts. Splinter Pistols are free.

As a whole I think the subfactions are pretty well handled. Each time I think I've dismissed one, some aspect of the warlord trait, the relic, the stratagem, whatever draws me back into it and makes me consider it.

Poison tongue is just worse Flayed Skull! Oh, wait, but that stratagem sounds pretty awesome, and the pistol is nifty. Lelith looks amazing, I gotta go Strife! Man, but that Red Grief relic and reavers are so nice...

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, but in my experience, if I've failed my veil save, I've generally failed it against a melta gun or lascannon or something and my archon is either dead or nearly dead anyway. To me the distinction between being left with a 4++ and being left with a 3+ and -1 to hit in melee is pretty minimal because odds are good I'm dead shortly afterwards either way.

In fairness, this is probably about as resilient as Archons have ever been. I mean, in 7th a failed wound against a Lascannon would be an auto-kill. Now you've got a 2/3 chance of surviving.

Of course, it's possible other shooting will finish him off, but I think it's still worth noting.

the_scotsman wrote:

The biggest point the veil has over the armor for me is Flayed Skull over Obsidian Rose.

That's fair, though I do quite like Obsidian Rose.

the_scotsman wrote:
I must say, it is incredibly refreshing to have only put 1-2 artifacts out of our list of a dozen or so in the dustbin after one look. Compares pretty favorably to every other codex I've gotten for an army I play. I'm going to be spending a lot of cps on them I think. Really, the only never-include for me is the Animus. Shame because I loved using the Animus in my freakshow army in 7th ed.

Yeah, aside from 1 or 2 , we have a really great selection of artefacts. One of the things I really like about the book.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Vipoid, Parasite's Kiss is free, not 5 pts. Splinter Pistols are free.

The parasites kiss is definitely not free. It is doubtful it will be first or second artifact taken, so if you are to take it it comes with the hefty price tag of 2cp.
I think he was saying as a weapon upgrade costing 5 points it would be worth it, but having to spend cp on it is not worth it

I must say I really love this codex. I long for a chance to play with it (only have 300+ points) but I'm having so many ideas for viable lists it's crazy. There's just so many combinations possible, the relics are mostly very nice (a nice change from AdMech) and the Warlord traits are in the same vein. I'm actually kind of sad that there's traits and relics to recycle CPs across so many codices because most of the time it will feel like an auto-take, and it doesn't encourage you trying something else because you'll feel like handicapping yourself. I feel with an average of 10 CPs before using any pre-game strats there's already much room for strats already, without the need to use recycling traits.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Vipoid, Parasite's Kiss is free, not 5 pts. Splinter Pistols are free.

It's not free though, that's the point. There's an opportunity cost (in taking it over other artefacts) or else a CP cost to take multiple artefacts.

I was comparing it to when it used to be 5pts, back in 7th. As it is, all artefacts are given the same value.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm actually kind of sad that there's traits and relics to recycle CPs across so many codices because most of the time it will feel like an auto-take, and it doesn't encourage you trying something else because you'll feel like handicapping yourself.

Yeah, this is something I'm not fond of either. But then, I'm not very keen on the CP system in general.

 Aaranis wrote:
I feel with an average of 10 CPs before using any pre-game strats there's already much room for strats already, without the need to use recycling traits.

How are you getting up to 10?

Battalion + 3 Patrols. Miss me with these Detachments limitations

or 2 battalions+mini detachment, probably RG outrider. Kabal Batt, any of the other three batt, RG outrider feels like a really good list core.

I posted my first list earlier, was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on that ? I'll look at it myself again with a fresh brain, been having new ideas in the meantime !

 Aaranis wrote:
There at last, finished my first draft for a 2000 pts list. Here it is:

Spoiler:

Batallion - Flayed Skull
- Archon, Warlord, Famed Savagery, Obsidian Veil, Huskblade and Blast pistol (In a Raider with 8 Wyches and the drugged Succubus)
- Archon, Agoniser
- 2x10 Warriors, Shredder, Splinter Cannon, in a Raider with DL, Splinter racks and Shock prow
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Blast pistol, Power sword, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons
- 10 Scourges, 4 Haywire Blasters

Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Hydra gauntlets
- 5 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons

Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Stimm Addict, Blood Glaive
- 8 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler
- Raider with DL and Shock Prow
- 2x6 Reavers, 2 Blasters, 2 Grav-talons

Patrol - Prophets of Flesh
- Haemonculus, Diabolical Soothsayer, Stinger pistol, Electrocorrosive Whip
- 2x10 Wracks, Flesh gauntlet, Ossefactor
- 3 Grotesques
- 1 Talos, Macro-scalpels, Stinger pod

22 units, 94 models, 15 deployments, 100 PL, 10 CP (+1d3, -2 from relics and warlord traits).

I shamelessly stole the idea from Red Corsair for the Succu-bus with CC Archon. The Coven patrol takes board space while making for the frontlines on foot, buffed by the Haemonculus, the Reavers will either tarpit and/or focus on crippling enemy vehicles by shooting and charging them if possible, the Warriors shoot whatever is juicy enough for them, the Venoms shoot stuff and deliver the 5 Wyches where needed (they're more there as a tax really), and the Archon and Succubus on foot do whatever they can to either tie up enemy units or contest objectives. Scourges I'm not sure at all with their loadout, I feel like loading them up with Blasters would prove too pricy (and a pain to find so much Blasters), and I'm not certain on the use of the Haywire. If my opponent don't have vehicles they're just nice bolters. But they're cheap so why not ? I added 5 more Scourges for ablative wounds, and because their Shardcarbines aren't too bad.

EDIT: By the way, what do you guys think would be hard counters for Drukhari in general ? I know it may be hard to say with so many different loadouts possible, but I'm still wondering. Against a list with strong alpha strike too (like Blood Angels) what to do ? Hope we get the 1st turn ? I'm thinking we'll wish to have more shooting in our lists when facing T'au too, their Overwatch can be just too mean for our poor Wyches. Haemonculi's goons might take the blow easier though.

Purely from a list-building perspective:

-I would drop the grotesques or poosibly a unit of Wracks for an additonal 2 taloi. Wracks are not great on foot IMO, and work better mounted up as part of a Dark Creed or Coven of 12 detachment. PoF should focus on either a big unit of taloi or a big unit of grotesques. With everything mounted except the coven, it seems like the enemy will get to fight half your army, then by the time the other half arrives they'll be able to go at them. 3 taloi can pull the Fire and Fade trick to keep pace with the rest of a list.

-10 scourges feels pointless unless you're running shredders with them. Otherwise you're relying on good targets made of both infantry and tanks within range of the drop.

-if you're running 2 wych patrols, make one of them not Red Grief. I'd maybe swap the reavers and the nicely geared succubus over to the first patrol with just the 5 wyches, then either swap the other succubus over to Lelith and make it a Strife patrol, or swap it over to Cursed Blade for slightly better combat stats (and you can run the second succubus with a shardnet, that build is dynamite)

-Why stimm addict over quicksilver? Quicksilver is such a dominantly good trait its hard to consider it over anything but Blood Dancer on lelith. maybe precision blows on a strife punchubbus with hydras.

-Why Veil over Djinn Blade on that archon build? Djinn Blade is just awesome on a savagery archon. If I were going for a huskblade/veil I'd probably give him the reroll to wound trait instead.

-Overall I think you're light on anti-tank. Odd that you'd say getting 4 blasters would be hard when you'll have 4 blasters just from buying the kits in this list - 3 warrior kits and you're already arming 2 squads with shredders. I'd take the extra shredder from the scourge kit and arm all the warriors with shredders, put all the blasters on scourges, then make a blaster and a haywire scourge squad instead of 4 haywire 6 splinter. Youll have extra haywire from the talos.

Lithanial wrote:

Spoiler:

I've been busy working away with math-hammer distilling down the Aeldari anti-vehicle options into a "Cost per damage" metric at T5-8 and it had been coming out with some interesting results.

Most of the widely viewed good anti-vehicle options work out around the 30-32 points per damage bracket for all but the toughest T8 targets. In this pool you have Ravagers, Crimson Hunters, Dark Reapers, full strength scourge squads, even a Wraithknight using a Titanic Ghostglaive works out around this. The few standouts so far have been:

1st Place - Fire Dragons, by far the most efficient even outside of the extra damage range at ~15 points per damage. Downsides as we all know, are getting them close and lack of durability
2nd Place - Min sized Haywire scourges at ~18-20 points per damage. Massive durability issue when taken this small but comes pre-packed with mobility
3rd Place - Fire Prisms with linked-fire stratagem at ~25.5 points per damage. Solidly versatile but a CP drain
3rd Place - Wraithguard with Wraithcannons also come in at ~25.5 points per damage. Great durability, poor speed
5th Place - Crimson Hunter Exarch, at ~28 points per damage which just beats out the Hemlock at T7 even with Smite. The anti-fly rerolls which drop this down to ~21 points per damage, landing 8.3 damage each in one salvo.

Special Mention: Hemlock Wraithfighter at a mixed ~24.5 points per damage up to T6 then ~29 points per damage for beyond but has the possibility of a good amount of its damage being shut down by opposing psykers.
---

It's a little disappointing that the only thing Drukhari seem to have that comes close to the efficiency of the Craftworlds for dedicated tank busting units is small units of Scourges but I guess it's testament to the more generalist nature of the army - little bits of anti-tank scattered throughout.

That said, it's crazy tempting to ally an Air Wing of 1x Hemlock 2x Crimson Hunter Exarch. You could get some real use out of the Hemlock's Mindshock pods and having a means of psychic denial.

Can you post the entier list? It is less usefull when 5 out of 6 mentioned are not in the Drukhari codex,

Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)

Hey guys I just need a question answered. So for our relics we get 1 free then we have to use the prizes from the dark city if we wanted more, my understanding is that we can have a max of 3 relics for 3 command points. Is that right or are we limited to two?

the_scotsman wrote:
Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)

Kabal troops are cheap, versatile and good, which makes them easy to fit into a battalion. Covens have a lot of good stuff going for them (a second Haemonculus is far less of a tax than a second Archon, for one), but Wracks are a touch mediocre compared to everything else, which makes investing into them to fill a battalion less desirable. As far as Wych Cults go, no idea. Personally, I have no interest in them, so I wouldn't end up using them regardless.

the_scotsman wrote:
Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)

Personally, I use a Battalion because I want more Kabalites than I can fit into a single Patrol, and don't want the 3rd HQ choice that 3 Patrols would require.

Luthon1234 wrote:
Hey guys I just need a question answered. So for our relics we get 1 free then we have to use the prizes from the dark city if we wanted more, my understanding is that we can have a max of 3 relics for 3 command points. Is that right or are we limited to two?

You can have 1 for free, 2 for 1cp, 3 for 3cp.

All armies relics work like that.

There is one additional restriction - your freebie relic needs to be either your warlord's...faction or detachment. I don't remember which, and it doesn't have to be ON your warlord, but it needs to be somehow adjacent to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)

Personally, I use a Battalion because I want more Kabalites than I can fit into a single Patrol, and don't want the 3rd HQ choice that 3 Patrols would require.

There are also 3 troop slots in a Spearhead, though. 3 Ravagers are pretty no-brainer, and it only requires a single archon.

I just don't see many instances where the second Archon in a battalion would not be a dead weight. First one can either get a court, or a relic, or a WL trait, but the second one...bleh.

the_scotsman wrote:
Purely from a list-building perspective:

-I would drop the grotesques or poosibly a unit of Wracks for an additonal 2 taloi. Wracks are not great on foot IMO, and work better mounted up as part of a Dark Creed or Coven of 12 detachment. PoF should focus on either a big unit of taloi or a big unit of grotesques. With everything mounted except the coven, it seems like the enemy will get to fight half your army, then by the time the other half arrives they'll be able to go at them. 3 taloi can pull the Fire and Fade trick to keep pace with the rest of a list.

-10 scourges feels pointless unless you're running shredders with them. Otherwise you're relying on good targets made of both infantry and tanks within range of the drop.

-if you're running 2 wych patrols, make one of them not Red Grief. I'd maybe swap the reavers and the nicely geared succubus over to the first patrol with just the 5 wyches, then either swap the other succubus over to Lelith and make it a Strife patrol, or swap it over to Cursed Blade for slightly better combat stats (and you can run the second succubus with a shardnet, that build is dynamite)

-Why stimm addict over quicksilver? Quicksilver is such a dominantly good trait its hard to consider it over anything but Blood Dancer on lelith. maybe precision blows on a strife punchubbus with hydras.

-Why Veil over Djinn Blade on that archon build? Djinn Blade is just awesome on a savagery archon. If I were going for a huskblade/veil I'd probably give him the reroll to wound trait instead.

-Overall I think you're light on anti-tank. Odd that you'd say getting 4 blasters would be hard when you'll have 4 blasters just from buying the kits in this list - 3 warrior kits and you're already arming 2 squads with shredders. I'd take the extra shredder from the scourge kit and arm all the warriors with shredders, put all the blasters on scourges, then make a blaster and a haywire scourge squad instead of 4 haywire 6 splinter. Youll have extra haywire from the talos.

Thanks for the feedback !

- Yes I planned on taking 3 Talos without the Grotesques initially, they would serve better at anti-tank, too. Thing is I had budget in mind for this list, it can be mostly completed with a few Start Collecting boxes, and regular boxes would've filled the rest. I'm torn because I prefer the Haemonculi theme to the Wyches, but they're far more expensive :/

- I wanted ablative wounds for the Scourges, and more often then not I find myself in range of both on the table of my LGS, so that was my train of thoughts. I also considered having less drops to grab 1st turn more easily, but you're right, I should just give a squad blasters and the other haywire blasters. Haywire blasters won't help when facing Daemons or such, though.

- The small Wyches detachment was the same Obsession for sake of clarity in game, I don't want to paint their bases differently or such to make the difference on the table. Also, they can still be buffed by the other Succubus if the need arises.

- Hmm Quicksilver don't look this awesome to me. I like the idea of a "live fast die young" drug-crazy Succubus on Overdose strat with the +1A and +1S drugs.

- I was strongly hesitating between the durability of the Veil and the damage of the Blade. I'm just mostly traumatised by TH captains and want protection from them

- It was my feel too, but thinking about it my usual opponents don't field more than 4 vehicles at once, so I thought I had this covered.

I'll rewrite my list after doing some more maths and thinking. It's just not simple building a Drukhari list ! Without field experience even more so. I'd like to build a really mean alpha strike that can cripple the opponent on the first turn, even if he has screens and such. Also not relying too much on DS because they're usually placing screens. And I'm afraid of not having all my army on the table turn 1 by keeping them in reserve for a turn or two. The army is still quite flimsy.

Any thoughts about how to best use the different Kabal Obsessions?

For example, what would you do differently in an Obsidian Rose list, compared to a Flayed Skull list? (Or vice versa.)

Or what would you use in a Poison Tongue list that you wouldn't use in a Black Heart list? (Outside of the relic and warlord trait that are exclusive to Black Heart, obviously.)

haha, to be totally honest the Talos kit comes with so many freaking bits I think you'd be totally capable of building 2 or even 3 taloi out of one box.

I built a Cronos pain engine at one point and built a second Talos using pretty much no greenstuff with the addition of a Necron Destroyer torso I had sitting around. Odd that you're trying to be budget conscious and using 20 Wracks though, wracks are one of the most expensive kits around!

I'm always of the opinion that if budget is a concern, you should just build your army slower and get more games in with it, and end up with the army you really want, rather than the one that is convenient to buy. Sure, 2 boxes of GOC, 2 Start Collecting boxes will net you a really serviceable wych list, but if you don't like wyches that much..whats the point? Better to get more practice in at smaller game sizes and end up with an army you really like.


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 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts about how to best use the different Kabal Obsessions?

For example, what would you do differently in an Obsidian Rose list, compared to a Flayed Skull list? (Or vice versa.)

Or what would you use in a Poison Tongue list that you wouldn't use in a Black Heart list? (Outside of the relic and warlord trait that are exclusive to Black Heart, obviously.)

Obsidian Rose, a 20 warrior block would absolutely be happening, with shredders and splinters, and I'd love every minute of that 15" rapid fire with Fire and Fade. At least one 20-warrior block, maybe 2. Probably would want a Spearhead, 3 ravagers probably with 42" range lances, 1-2 20 warrior blocks, Archon rocking 4 sexy sneks along with him in his venom with the armor of misery and Eternal Hatred. Index blaster for sure on him.

flayed skull would be all mounted all the time. splinter cannons for everyone, liberal use of Screaming Jets, splinter racks on all the Raiders, and plenty of venoms as well. I'd definitely buy Flayed Skull venoms for my other allies to mount up in.

Black Heart, Either nothing but ravagers or nothing but planes. The boring one tbh.

The Poison Tongue I'd go full space pirate theme. Pair them with Red Grief wyches with a huge emphasis on Reavers and wyches with Shardnets, buy all your venoms from PT all your raiders from RG, have the wyches tie up the enemy so your Kabalites can disembark from their venoms and lay down the dakka. Either 3 patrols, 2 PT 1 RG, or RG battalion and PT battalion with lots of 5-man squads.

Yes Wracks are so expensive :( Well I included 10 because squads of five on foot aren't going to do much, and I hate the idea of tax units so I want to make every choice worthwhile. I could also just pick one min unit and hold a backfield objective with them and the Haemonculus. In the long term I'd like to try building lists focused around Covens so I could start as I go.

But you're right, I shouldn't go ahead and think of 2000 pts lists right now. I'll start with 1000, then 1500... The usual format around here is 2000 pts so that everyone can bring his favourite toys to the table.

 Fafnir wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)

Kabal troops are cheap, versatile and good, which makes them easy to fit into a battalion. Covens have a lot of good stuff going for them (a second Haemonculus is far less of a tax than a second Archon, for one), but Wracks are a touch mediocre compared to everything else, which makes investing into them to fill a battalion less desirable. As far as Wych Cults go, no idea. Personally, I have no interest in them, so I wouldn't end up using them regardless.

Have to question how you find a second haemonculus less a tax then a second archon. So far my archon and dracon have been amazing. Contrary to popular belief they are not that hard to get into the enemy, once there they are monsters. I think people are forgetting how difficult it is to bring guns to bare on characters when lightning fast vehicles are also assaulting their lines. Then again, I still find out that most people are not using their vehicles to assault for some reason. With fly on all our vehicles they should attempt a charge almost every turn possible. With that taken into account there is usually not a lot of gun drawn on my archons, and in cover I can always use their armor, and in a pinch burn Hunt from the Shadows to get a 3+ save (I tend to find they leapfrog from ruin to ruin killing units. So far I am loving this book, Archons are great, but clearly at 76-86 ppm you can't expect them to solo a primarch, use your stratagems and other units wisely and these guys just have their way with enemy infantry and support characters. Few characters get to pull a mini dark lance from their holster and greedo characters foolish enough to charge them. I have done this already, freed up the archon in the shooting phase and continued on assaulting shlubs. I know it's anecdotal, but I am trying to inspire people to actually play with their models for a couple months before condemning them based on forum group think, which tends to happen after every leak/release. Sort of like how stuckubus (thanks scotsman I can never not think of this now lol) is turning out to be much better then anyone would have guessed a week ago.

the_scotsman wrote:

Obsidian Rose, a 20 warrior block would absolutely be happening, with shredders and splinters, and I'd love every minute of that 15" rapid fire with Fire and Fade. At least one 20-warrior block, maybe 2. Probably would want a Spearhead, 3 ravagers probably with 42" range lances, 1-2 20 warrior blocks, Archon rocking 4 sexy sneks along with him in his venom with the armor of misery and Eternal Hatred. Index blaster for sure on him.

flayed skull would be all mounted all the time. splinter cannons for everyone, liberal use of Screaming Jets, splinter racks on all the Raiders, and plenty of venoms as well. I'd definitely buy Flayed Skull venoms for my other allies to mount up in.

Black Heart, Either nothing but ravagers or nothing but planes. The boring one tbh.

The Poison Tongue I'd go full space pirate theme. Pair them with Red Grief wyches with a huge emphasis on Reavers and wyches with Shardnets, buy all your venoms from PT all your raiders from RG, have the wyches tie up the enemy so your Kabalites can disembark from their venoms and lay down the dakka. Either 3 patrols, 2 PT 1 RG, or RG battalion and PT battalion with lots of 5-man squads.

Nice. Cheers for that.

I think Flayed Skull and/or Poison Tongue will be my Kabals of choice. I really want to try that Poison Tongue & Red Grief pirate list.

I get what you guys were saying about the Parasite's Kiss not being worth the points now. It isn't terrible though. Regaining wounds is always pretty decent.

 Niiai wrote:
Can you post the entier list? It is less usefull when 5 out of 6 mentioned are not in the Drukhari codex,

I'll try and remember to get it up on GoogleDocs once I've actually finished it. Going through the Harlequin melee stats at the moment as i'm trying to refine how big I actually want my Harlequin division to be and their loadouts.

Useful stat for those with a Tyrant problem - Harlequin Troupe armed with Harlequin's Kiss and under their leader aura are 16.2 points per wound vs T7 4++, and at only AP -1 remains unaffected by most invulnerable saves. The cost of the Troupe leader himself makes a Skyweaver load net out at 19.34 points per wound. You get 9.72 wounds off on the charge

Ran a couple of Obsidian Rose Trueborn squads today with all Shredders agaisnt Guard, they were virtually deleting a unit a turn despite rolling a littel under average on the hit rolls. That 18" range was brilliant for them, and 21" RF range on Splitner Cannons was increadibly useful, there were quite a few times where the extra 3" were the difference between 6 and 12 shots. It's ironic that now they've been relegated to the index they've finally found their niche, Scourge can't make use of the Shredder quite as well becuase of the lack of <Kabal> but it's probably better to run them with Blasters or Haywire to begin with.

Also ran min squads of Reavers instead of large squads. I think I much prefer them this way, fast moving harassment teams that move in to tie things up and are much easier to hide on the way, your opponent also doesn't want to waste too much shooting on a min bike squad with questionable damage output. 12 bike squads on the otherhand are a large target that are pretty much priority #1 due to potential MW output.