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Really, no one noticed you now could win back CPs from your own stratagems now ? Before that it was only when the opponent used them. Anyway your Black Heart Archon will mostly stay hidden in the back so it's just win-win.

Yeah, I run my BH Archon with 3 ravagers and the reroll relic so this is nothing but happy for me.

 Aaranis wrote:
Really, no one noticed you now could win back CPs from your own stratagems now ? Before that it was only when the opponent used them. Anyway your Black Heart Archon will mostly stay hidden in the back so it's just win-win.

We didn't notice it because that was already the case. Looks like you nerfed yourself.

Yo what the hell the French codex says only when your opponents uses a stratagem ! Then yeah I agree it's a small nerf. Good thing I won't get a game with Drukhari before probably V9 at the rate I'm buying

Agree that killing the patrol combo 1 week after release is... a bit stupid. "Oh you can use it in smaller games or narrative games or take 6 detachments in bigger games" feels like a cop out.

The DE codex was probably written 3 months ago while this FAQ has been re-written in the last couple of weeks but still.

But yeah - I am cautiously optimistic that this will make Dark Eldar better rather than worse. Being fast matters a lot more when opponents are not turn 1 DSing at point blank (okay 9") range. If they can only DS into deployment you can keep key models (ravagers, flyers) back so they will get to do something.

It definitely hurts Scourge and Mandrakes but potentially not as much as other units - they may be able to shoot from deployment, especially if you go second, and they have the movement to get across the table in future turns. I can potentially see that against some armies you might want to just set them down normally so they can move up the board.

I think an interesting question will be how many CPs armies really need. I mean...would you use 20-25 CP in a game?

Probably not. I'd have thought you would be spoilt for choice with just a double batallion and an expected 17 or so in a game.

I can see the use in running above average CP numbers in a DE army so you can freely use Agents of Vect to mess with people.
Being able to stop the Chaos shooting twice stratagem and other such crucial stratagems every turn can feel pretty strong.

I honestly don't know that I believe the 3 patrols rule is already dead. Yeah, you'll get more CP with a Battalion, but you'll also have to take a second underwhelming HQ with the same trait to do so. Outside of Succubi, I don't know that it's worth it.

Dunno how much deep striking hurts scourges. I'm not usually looking to get them super close anyway.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I honestly don't know that I believe the 3 patrols rule is already dead. Yeah, you'll get more CP with a Battalion, but you'll also have to take a second underwhelming HQ with the same trait to do so. Outside of Succubi, I don't know that it's worth it.

Except that 3 Patrols also requires a second underwhelming HQ and then a third underwhelming HQ as well, all for less benefit.

I think its best for smaller games where you still want variety. Anything larger than 1500pts just go Battalions.

This was true before the new FAQ and is still true now.

 vipoid wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I honestly don't know that I believe the 3 patrols rule is already dead. Yeah, you'll get more CP with a Battalion, but you'll also have to take a second underwhelming HQ with the same trait to do so. Outside of Succubi, I don't know that it's worth it.

Except that 3 Patrols also requires a second underwhelming HQ and then a third underwhelming HQ as well, all for less benefit.

But different underwhelming HQs, providing different bonuses, the only thing that brings most of them up to the level of, at least, whelming. I don't mind having to take, say, a Poison Tongue Archon, a Red Grief Succubus, and a Prophets of Flesh Haemonculus, each providing useful benefits to my army by their existence, even if only the Succubus is all that useful as a unit in her own right. What I mind is having to take a second Poison Tongue Archon, who provides me zero real benefit (or take Drazhar, who has some nice rules, sure, but honestly is not worth 120 points and pretty much inherently requires me to take Incubi).

To me the benefit of their abilities and obsessions is worth the points. An extra CP or two, less so. I'd rather spend it on another unit.

So here is my list. It is cross between fun while stil not being bad,

I really want helions and reavers. But I do not wanne go overboard with them.



Note I have enough troops and heavy suport to get 1 more CP for 1 aditional Archon. But I do not think he would be worth it, In many ways the Archon is just a glorified kabalite warrior with BS2.. I have not plaued with him yet, so maybi that huskblade is better then I imagine, but I am not holding my breath.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I honestly don't know that I believe the 3 patrols rule is already dead. Yeah, you'll get more CP with a Battalion, but you'll also have to take a second underwhelming HQ with the same trait to do so. Outside of Succubi, I don't know that it's worth it.

Except that 3 Patrols also requires a second underwhelming HQ and then a third underwhelming HQ as well, all for less benefit.

But different underwhelming HQs, providing different bonuses, the only thing that brings most of them up to the level of, at least, whelming. I don't mind having to take, say, a Poison Tongue Archon, a Red Grief Succubus, and a Prophets of Flesh Haemonculus, each providing useful benefits to my army by their existence, even if only the Succubus is all that useful as a unit in her own right. What I mind is having to take a second Poison Tongue Archon, who provides me zero real benefit (or take Drazhar, who has some nice rules, sure, but honestly is not worth 120 points and pretty much inherently requires me to take Incubi).

To me the benefit of their abilities and obsessions is worth the points. An extra CP or two, less so. I'd rather spend it on another unit.

Well said. Our HQ's are pretty meh as is but with a combo of warlord traits and relics (dishing out 3 cp for 3 relics is iffy but 1 cp to have 2 relics sounds fine) having one of each to assist their designated units is fine. To me succubi without relic weapons are just very underwhelming, more-so when you factor in how drug distribution is such a pain. The raiding party allowed us to have the complete flavour of our codex without having to double down on redundant HQ slots, 1 of each felt fine. Haemonculus is the only one I'd consider taking two of so I could spread the +1T around further. Sure in larger battles battalions were getting taken anyways but in smaller games the raiding party offered a way of list building that simply wasn't possible due to our keywords not working inside of the same detachment. What bothers me is that when our dex came out we had 1 extra CP for 1 extra HQ, seemed fine to me and it was the workaround to our unique keyword burden. Then two weeks later they pull the rug out from under us and boost everyones CP for a detachment they were taking anyways but leave ours as is. How hard would it have been while they were writing our FAQ to boost our raiding party to 6 CP? It's not like they didn't know what changes they were planning when they were writing our FAQ.

On another note making the raiding party an atleast semi-competitive option made getting into mixed DE (in terms of purchases) a fairly simple process, 1 HQ and 1 Troop per detachment, not unreasonable. Now to build into multiple battalions for higher point games I'm tripling my investent in troops and doubling my HQ purchases to make a battalion of each. For those without existing huge DE armies leaving the raiding party in the dust just made it that much harder to play using all the models in your dex.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
(or take Drazhar, who has some nice rules, sure, but honestly is not worth 120 points and pretty much inherently requires me to take Incubi).

Honestly, Drazhar doesn't really do a whole lot to help Incubi. The +1 to hit doesn't really matter after turn 3, and if you really need it sooner, Architects of Pain costs one CP. Worse yet, Onslaught only works on unmodified rolls of 6, so it's not like he helps towards that either. Incubi are mediocre with or without him, but Drazhar himself is just plain bad no matter what he's doing or who he's with.

So... no more Trueborn units with blasters?

Guess I'm breaking off arms...

How are our fliers?

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
How are our fliers?

Not really any better or worse than they were, other than a bit cheaper. There are better ones in the game, there are worse ones, they're solid units with solid rules, that fit well in the right list and don't in the wrong one. Pretty balanced units, all in all, imho. We also got FAQ rules for an oop jet you could easily kitbash from a razorwing, but I haven't looked at it well enough to know how it stacks up to the other two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
So... no more Trueborn units with blasters?

Guess I'm breaking off arms...

But cheaper Kabs, cheaper splinter rifles, and one blaster per 5 rather than 10. You can still technically run TB on the index rules, but with cheaper Kabs and 12 pt scourges, I don't know it it's worth it. I will say with the changes, I only found myself swapping out a handful of blasterborn for something else; you'll find a place for most of them among your newer, better, cheaper, more-worth-taking Warriors.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
How are our fliers?

RWJF is much better, 30pts less and 1 missile is better, you'll see 1-3 in many lists. he bomber didnt get much of a points decease.

We can still spam blasters in kabalite units... I recently played with 4x5 kabalites in venoms and 2x10 in raiders, 8 blasters in total.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I honestly don't know that I believe the 3 patrols rule is already dead. Yeah, you'll get more CP with a Battalion, but you'll also have to take a second underwhelming HQ with the same trait to do so. Outside of Succubi, I don't know that it's worth it.

Dunno how much deep striking hurts scourges. I'm not usually looking to get them super close anyway.

1 less HQ total for 1 more command point would seem to not be too much of a problem to justify.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a funny side note for use if any of you ever come across an opponent who insists upon using the new FAQ rulings to make models invulnerable to assault by standing them on things:

RAW, post-FAQ, all dark eldar non-flying vehicles are fully immune to being assaulted unless an enemy can get to their base (flying stands being over 1" tall), and they're freely allowed to be tilted down when you charge so that the nose can be used to measure to target model bases.

Fight powergaming with powergaming.

"RAW, post-FAQ, all dark eldar non-flying vehicles are fully immune to being assaulted unless an enemy can get to their base (flying stands being over 1" tall), and they're freely allowed to be tilted down when you charge so that the nose can be used to measure to target model bases. "

How so? What part of the faq even suggests this?
They have Hover on the datasheet that overrides this.

the_scotsman wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I honestly don't know that I believe the 3 patrols rule is already dead. Yeah, you'll get more CP with a Battalion, but you'll also have to take a second underwhelming HQ with the same trait to do so. Outside of Succubi, I don't know that it's worth it.

Dunno how much deep striking hurts scourges. I'm not usually looking to get them super close anyway.

1 less HQ total for 1 more command point would seem to not be too much of a problem to justify.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a funny side note for use if any of you ever come across an opponent who insists upon using the new FAQ rulings to make models invulnerable to assault by standing them on things:

RAW, post-FAQ, all dark eldar non-flying vehicles are fully immune to being assaulted unless an enemy can get to their base (flying stands being over 1" tall), and they're freely allowed to be tilted down when you charge so that the nose can be used to measure to target model bases.

Fight powergaming with powergaming.

This was already specifically FAQ'd out last summer to not be a problem.

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I honestly don't know that I believe the 3 patrols rule is already dead. Yeah, you'll get more CP with a Battalion, but you'll also have to take a second underwhelming HQ with the same trait to do so. Outside of Succubi, I don't know that it's worth it.

Dunno how much deep striking hurts scourges. I'm not usually looking to get them super close anyway.

1 less HQ total for 1 more command point would seem to not be too much of a problem to justify.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a funny side note for use if any of you ever come across an opponent who insists upon using the new FAQ rulings to make models invulnerable to assault by standing them on things:

RAW, post-FAQ, all dark eldar non-flying vehicles are fully immune to being assaulted unless an enemy can get to their base (flying stands being over 1" tall), and they're freely allowed to be tilted down when you charge so that the nose can be used to measure to target model bases.

Fight powergaming with powergaming.

This was already specifically FAQ'd out last summer to not be a problem.

The rule in the codex says "measure to the hull or base (whichever is closer). The check to see whether a unit is within assault range is a check whether my opponent has one of their bases within 1" of either my hull or my base (whichever is closer). Since my Hull is always more than 1" off the ground, it is ineligible as something that any model can possibly assault (barring weird circumstances and other measure from hull vehicles).

Certainly if they make it to my base, I can be assaulted, but unless they make it to within 1" of my base, my vehicles are immune to assault, rules as stupidly written.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
So... no more Trueborn units with blasters?

Guess I'm breaking off arms...

But cheaper Kabs, cheaper splinter rifles, and one blaster per 5 rather than 10. You can still technically run TB on the index rules, but with cheaper Kabs and 12 pt scourges, I don't know it it's worth it. I will say with the changes, I only found myself swapping out a handful of blasterborn for something else; you'll find a place for most of them among your newer, better, cheaper, more-worth-taking Warriors.

That's a very good point... thanks!

Also, I've seen lists where Archons can take blasters... but, in the codex I don't see it on the datasheet. How is this possible?

Trying to maximize blasters in my list.

Archons have blasters listed in their index profile, so they have access to them from there until GW decides to phase that out too.

Anything from the index should be weened off though. It's a bad idea to model your newer kits off index options since the index will go in the trash sooner or later. Have an old conversion or model you really are attached to? Use the index. Trying to squeeze more crap into a list for an edge in game? Expect it to be gone eventually. I personally like the idea of a blast pistol on an archon better but I know that is just my opinion. At 10 points they are really good anyway.

Good points overall guys... I do see the appeal for the blast pistols.

Also... I'm kinda new to vehicle rules in 8th...I've only played Demons since 7th.

But, if a rapid fire weapon is on a vehicle, say a venom w/ splinter cannon...is it always 6 shots at full 36"? Or, is it in 8th vehicle shoots like infantry and need to be in rapid-fire range to get the full number of shots?

In either case, is it worth it to upgrade the splinter rifle on venoms to cannons?

 whembly wrote:
Good points overall guys... I do see the appeal for the blast pistols.

Also... I'm kinda new to vehicle rules in 8th...I've only played Demons since 7th.

But, if a rapid fire weapon is on a vehicle, say a venom w/ splinter cannon...is it always 6 shots at full 36"? Or, is it in 8th vehicle shoots like infantry and need to be in rapid-fire range to get the full number of shots?

In either case, is it worth it to upgrade the splinter rifle on venoms to cannons?

The second thing - it only gets full shots at half range.

I like the splinter cannon upgrade, purely because it means I don't have two different range sweet spots for my venom - it gets to 18", it's shooting at full effectiveness.

If my venom is transporting kabalites though I often leave it because it's only 2 shots more, and the venom will want to be at 12" anyway for the kabs.

So per the new FAQ all our flying CC units just got better, as we can charge way easier, by ignoring vertical movement. So deep strikes to charge a unit in a building (or dropping at the top to get to ground zero) are way more attractive. Also there's a thread in the YMDC section arguing with strong arguments that flying units ignore vertical movement even in the movement phase, picture from the starter set "Know No Fear" proving that.

Hellions got even better ?

 Aaranis wrote:
So per the new FAQ all our flying CC units just got better, as we can charge way easier, by ignoring vertical movement. So deep strikes to charge a unit in a building (or dropping at the top to get to ground zero) are way more attractive. Also there's a thread in the YMDC section arguing with strong arguments that flying units ignore vertical movement even in the movement phase, picture from the starter set "Know No Fear" proving that.

Hellions got even better ?

The annoying thing is that you (per the FAQ) need space to place on of your models in CC with the charged unit. So if a squad of aggressors completely fills out a floor in a ruin, they are essentially immune to being charged by anything with a base. A Leman Russ can do it though.

Yeah it's the disadvantage. But luckily we have disintegrator cannons that excel at driving Aggressors away from a floor