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I like the individual parts but the list isn't wowing me. You built a gun line army using a codex that is arguably the most dynamic in the game currently and possibly ever. Beyond that DE don't do gunlines well. Sure you guaranteed the ravagers have at least 1 volley, which is a good tactic but without meaningful turn 1 threats to the opponent they will still lose out to better gun lines. That said, none of the units you have there are bad, your just going to end up with more options in the end. You really do want coven or cult in there.
Personally if I were starting from scratch I would go coven first easily. For 350 pts 10 grotesques are just stupidly good, and they fill all the holes DE have. You also then get talos that can fire and fade up the table turn 1, with HWB so you can advance and fire your looking at a minimum move of 16" out the gate. This is the type of forward pressure the DE need. Basically force them to deal with something that is inefficient to deal with while your shooting units fly around scoring and shooting.
Sounds like you want to go cult though, so I'd suggest MSU for them. 250 pts for reavers is too much IMO. That unit is not actually meaty at all. It also seduces you into burning all your CP's on them. Your making an incredible target of them, so then you burning 2 for LF reflexes, and generally 2 for moral and we haven't even done damage yet, couple that with the 3 ravagers using screaming jets and your basically out of CP's. Better to split them int 3x3, tie down 3 targets turn one, make them more annoying as targets and put them into an outrider for +1 rather then -1 CP. Use the blaster cost and odd bike to buy the succubus and arm her.
I am also not a massive fan of going all in on dissys. I find them incredibly fickle at AT, I hate letting my opponent roll saves, the more saves they roll, the more they pass. So sure mathhammer can tell me how great they are on a 5 turn average, but if ! roll flat or my opponent makes a few saves turn 1 I am hosed. Personally I still seem to do all my AT with darklight. Dissys murder elite infantry but you don't see much of that these days. Darklight can be equally fickle don't get me wrong, last game I played a rolled 3 1's in a row for blasters to wound rolls, but the difference is when I do hit and wound my opponent usually doesn't get to make a roll. Everyone has different experience with it though so I'd suggest you just use magnets and try both.
Thanks for the awesome feedback! I'm a little hesitant to go into covens due to $. Currently all the models in that list are what I own. Yes I am aware of the great conversions you can do with ogryn and crypt horrors, but I might hold off on that for at least a bit. I really do see what you mean by the grots presenting a great threat though. Yeah the big block of reavers would be a big target, but I figured with the -1 to hit that would give them a lot of survivability, but you are right in that I would be sinking too much into one blob when I could easily spread out the love. Do you think the blasters are not worth it? Their main job would be tying things up in meele for sure, but if they had a blaster that really gives them some anti-vehicle threat.
Kabals offer some great ranged support and a wealth of bodies, but I don't see cults offering anything that Harlequins would be interested in. At least, not to the extent that kabalites already would.
Asmodas wrote: Has anyone given any thought to how Dark Eldar might sync up with Harlequins in light of the new DE codex? Obviously, much will likely change given that the Quins will be getting a new codex in a few weeks.
The problem I have with Harlies is that they heavily overlap with Wyches. They've got roughly the same attack and defense profiles (when compared to cost). They threaten the same types of units, and they've got the same mobility. Their only notable difference is that Wyches get a serious defense boost during the Fight phase, while Harlies can get more of their (expensive) fusion pistols. I guess if you're going Ynarri, Harlies have more damage in a single unit than Wyches.
Point being, I don't see a Harlequin detachment adding anything better than a Wych cult would.
Command Points: Alliance of Agony
Total Command Points: 7 (+d3)
The general idea of this list is to flood the board with maximum threat overload by turn 2. While the Kabal forces are there to provide fire support, everything else in the army is there to provide some close combat punch. With the Grotesques riding around in a Raider, the Reavers zooming around, the Mandrakes coming in from reserve and the Wyches coming out of the webway, I'm looking at multiple nasty close combat threats swarming the enemy lines by turn 2. The Archon, Haemonculous and Succubus will all form a nice HQ party in the Venom with the Sslyth. The Scourges can either DS by turn 2, or can stay on the board (though I'm more inclined towards the former given the short range of blasters).
The only concern I have is that what I will have on the board will get wrecked by things like Astra Militarum, etc, by the time turn 2 rolls around. My biggest question is, am I leaving too little stuff on the board?
Also I'm seriously debating changing Strife to Red Grief to make better use of the Reavers, though if I do that, do you think it will still be worthwhile to take the Wyches as a DSing blob?
ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS: I'm considering ditching the Scourges for more Kabalites, and somehow fitting in a second Archon to turn the Flayed Skull Patrol into a Battalion (or alternatively, I could just drop the Coven
Asmodas wrote: Has anyone given any thought to how Dark Eldar might sync up with Harlequins in light of the new DE codex? Obviously, much will likely change given that the Quins will be getting a new codex in a few weeks.
I have a very large Harlequin force, and am looking at Dark Eldar for some gap plugging and a little variety. I like the idea of using Cabal for cheap troops, as Harlequins often have a hard time dealing with hordes/chaff. Cult also looks good for the same reason, plus Shardnet wyches sounds like they could really help if you need to keep something locked up
The best way IMO is to take basic Troupes with Embraces and Starweavers, 2 units with a Troupe Master as Anti-horde units
IMODE works better with CWE, with Warlock and Farseers powers to back up our Ravagers, Talos, Grots, whe you can lower a Save and re-roll all wounds and some rangers for -2 to hit problems while staying on objectives (something DE doesnt want to do) i feel CWE will be a key part of all comp lists.
With that said, take DE for long range shoot will help Harlequins, some RWJF, Ravagers, etc.. does help them a lot!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 11:06:40
Running dark eldar in conjunction with harlequins could easily work.
The harlequins can run similar to a cult battalion, just more expensive and harder hitting. Alternatively can utilise twilight pathways on the skyweavers in conjunction with reaver jetbikes to get stuck into a large chunk of enemy turn 1. Even make the weavers jetbikes for word of the Phoenix move as well.
Then a couple of starweavers with fusion pistols running in conjunction with warriors or wyches in venoms for a bunch of light transports
Asmodas wrote: Has anyone given any thought to how Dark Eldar might sync up with Harlequins in light of the new DE codex? Obviously, much will likely change given that the Quins will be getting a new codex in a few weeks.
I have a very large Harlequin force, and am looking at Dark Eldar for some gap plugging and a little variety. I like the idea of using Cabal for cheap troops, as Harlequins often have a hard time dealing with hordes/chaff. Cult also looks good for the same reason, plus Shardnet wyches sounds like they could really help if you need to keep something locked up
If Harlequins themselves get an anti-chaff option that's point efficient, you likely won't need it, but as they stand the Dark Eldar wych cults bring the most to the table as a combo partner. They move at similar speed to the harlequins, hit at the same turn 1 tempo, hold units in place to prevent fallback, and deal with the hordes that the harlequins struggle with. 10 man wych squads with 2x Razorflail 1x Shardnet would be optimal pairings with a harlequin army IMO.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
A bit late - but as a core this is similar to what I am doing.
How married are you to the Obsidian Rose though? The +6" range on blasters is nice I guess but I am not convinced its worth the tax of another Archon.
I'd look at a Black Heart battalion and then shave off some points to get 3 Razorwings in an Airwing detachment.
I think putting blasters on reavers is a mistake as it adds dramatically to their cost.
I say if you're allying in kabal, then no reason for reaver blasters. If you're playing either pure WC or WC/Coven, then youre so strapped for anti tank I'd slap a blaster on everything that can hold one.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Thanks everyone for all the ideas. I am working on a Kabal battalion at the moment, as that seems like the best way to go to get started. I bought both of the Start Collecting boxes (new and old) so I have a fair few Reavers now, as well. I am thinking about doing a Red Grief Outrider to go with the Harlies, as reavers just seem to do the job so much better than Skyweavers. Hopefully skyweavers get a significant buff in the codex, as they are way overpriced for what they do. Not sure what exactly they need, but I don’t think a price drop would be enough - they need a boost to attacks and probably a rework of their weapons too. Star bolas are useless in their current form - probably should go back to the old format where they could be fired at the same time as the underslung weapon. The haywire cannon needs a rework too.
Asmodas wrote: Thanks everyone for all the ideas. I am working on a Kabal battalion at the moment, as that seems like the best way to go to get started. I bought both of the Start Collecting boxes (new and old) so I have a fair few Reavers now, as well. I am thinking about doing a Red Grief Outrider to go with the Harlies, as reavers just seem to do the job so much better than Skyweavers. Hopefully skyweavers get a significant buff in the codex, as they are way overpriced for what they do. Not sure what exactly they need, but I don’t think a price drop would be enough - they need a boost to attacks and probably a rework of their weapons too. Star bolas are useless in their current form - probably should go back to the old format where they could be fired at the same time as the underslung weapon. The haywire cannon needs a rework too.
Skyweavers can have a 3++ and still charge turn 1, they are -1 to hit and 4++ always and more melee focus with S4 -2ap 2D weapons, they can also always fallback>shoot>charge.
Skyweavers are more of an elite unit where Reavers are a cheap unit, its like Wyches vs Troupes, same idea. Both do different jobs differently.
Haywire Cannons are almost certainly going to be D6 shots instead of D3, as it stands the Cannon is identical to the Blaster, it just costs more.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Asmodas wrote: Thanks everyone for all the ideas. I am working on a Kabal battalion at the moment, as that seems like the best way to go to get started. I bought both of the Start Collecting boxes (new and old) so I have a fair few Reavers now, as well. I am thinking about doing a Red Grief Outrider to go with the Harlies, as reavers just seem to do the job so much better than Skyweavers. Hopefully skyweavers get a significant buff in the codex, as they are way overpriced for what they do. Not sure what exactly they need, but I don’t think a price drop would be enough - they need a boost to attacks and probably a rework of their weapons too. Star bolas are useless in their current form - probably should go back to the old format where they could be fired at the same time as the underslung weapon. The haywire cannon needs a rework too.
Skyweavers can have a 3++ and still charge turn 1, they are -1 to hit and 4++ always and more melee focus with S4 -2ap 2D weapons, they can also always fallback>shoot>charge.
Skyweavers are more of an elite unit where Reavers are a cheap unit, its like Wyches vs Troupes, same idea. Both do different jobs differently.
Oh I agree they are more of an elite unit, but they unfortunately are not a good investment of points most of the time, as they have very little killing power with only 3 S3 attacks per 45 point model. They don’t even kill a guardsman, on average, on the charge unless you pour more points into them to give them a glaive. They used to have a little niche in 7th due to the fact that they had 2W per model, unlike all other Eldar jet bikes at the time, but now all the other types have 2W as well. They also used to be able to throw a whole bunch of star bolas on the turn they charged as well as opening up with their cannons, but now only one model can throw a bola (thanks to the grenade rule) and there is little reason to do that when you could just shoot with your cannons and reliably get 3 S6 shots.
I still use them every once in a while, but they are pretty pricy for a single first turn charge that probably won’t kill its target. If I want to just tie up a unit with a first turn charge, it strikes me that Reavers do that much more efficiently. /rant
Asmodas wrote: Thanks everyone for all the ideas. I am working on a Kabal battalion at the moment, as that seems like the best way to go to get started. I bought both of the Start Collecting boxes (new and old) so I have a fair few Reavers now, as well. I am thinking about doing a Red Grief Outrider to go with the Harlies, as reavers just seem to do the job so much better than Skyweavers. Hopefully skyweavers get a significant buff in the codex, as they are way overpriced for what they do. Not sure what exactly they need, but I don’t think a price drop would be enough - they need a boost to attacks and probably a rework of their weapons too. Star bolas are useless in their current form - probably should go back to the old format where they could be fired at the same time as the underslung weapon. The haywire cannon needs a rework too.
Skyweavers can have a 3++ and still charge turn 1, they are -1 to hit and 4++ always and more melee focus with S4 -2ap 2D weapons, they can also always fallback>shoot>charge.
Skyweavers are more of an elite unit where Reavers are a cheap unit, its like Wyches vs Troupes, same idea. Both do different jobs differently.
Oh I agree they are more of an elite unit, but they unfortunately are not a good investment of points most of the time, as they have very little killing power with only 3 S3 attacks per 45 point model. They don’t even kill a guardsman, on average, on the charge unless you pour more points into them to give them a glaive. They used to have a little niche in 7th due to the fact that they had 2W per model, unlike all other Eldar jet bikes at the time, but now all the other types have 2W as well. They also used to be able to throw a whole bunch of star bolas on the turn they charged as well as opening up with their cannons, but now only one model can throw a bola (thanks to the grenade rule) and there is little reason to do that when you could just shoot with your cannons and reliably get 3 S6 shots.
I still use them every once in a while, but they are pretty pricy for a single first turn charge that probably won’t kill its target. If I want to just tie up a unit with a first turn charge, it strikes me that Reavers do that much more efficiently. /rant
I agree for now they are to costly, but remember they are Index stilla nd will go down for sure at least 10-12pts, For game play wise, they dont have "Alpha strike" damage at all, they are Jack of all Trades and should be played as so, turn 1 charge, tie up units, fallback, shoot, recharge, repeat all game, always give them a 3++ and laugh as your opponents either fallback.
I think it's very much a case of wait a few weeks for the new codex to see what Harlies are really going to be like, at that point we'll be able to work out much better how the 3 Eldar factions work together.
One thing I'm hoping for is an expanded ability to attack via Leadership. Combined with Dark Creed Covens and Mind War Farseers and Hemlocks it could make for a very interesting return for the Freakshow.
A Haemy CREED detachment with one purchased Raider.
A Kabal Obsidian Rose detachment with a Kabalist unit (7 kabalist, 1 splinter cannon, 2 blaster)
Could I embark this kabal unit in a Raider purchased from the Creed detachment... and THEN:
1) spend CP to deep strike the Raider (turn 2 of course)
2) spend CP to use the Creed stratagem on the Raider to target an enemie's character.
Does the embarked kabal unit also get the benefit of that Creed stratagem by virtue of the Raider's open-top rule???
A Haemy CREED detachment with one purchased Raider.
A Kabal Obsidian Rose detachment with a Kabalist unit (7 kabalist, 1 splinter cannon, 2 blaster)
Could I embark this kabal unit in a Raider purchased from the Creed detachment... and THEN:
1) spend CP to deep strike the Raider (turn 2 of course)
2) spend CP to use the Creed stratagem on the Raider to target an enemie's character.
Does the embarked kabal unit also get the benefit of that Creed stratagem by virtue of the Raider's open-top rule???
No, because the Kabalites aren't the Raider?
what?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
A Haemy CREED detachment with one purchased Raider.
A Kabal Obsidian Rose detachment with a Kabalist unit (7 kabalist, 1 splinter cannon, 2 blaster)
Could I embark this kabal unit in a Raider purchased from the Creed detachment... and THEN:
1) spend CP to deep strike the Raider (turn 2 of course)
2) spend CP to use the Creed stratagem on the Raider to target an enemie's character.
Does the embarked kabal unit also get the benefit of that Creed stratagem by virtue of the Raider's open-top rule???
So serious question. Why bother with Ravagers when a Raider full of Kabalites can pack more guns, without profile degradation and you need to chew through both the vehicle and the Kabalites inside?
Ravager + 3 Dark Lance = 140 points
Raider + Dark Lance + Kabalites w/ 2 Blasters = 179 points
39 points gets you 8 Splinter rifles & 10 more wounds. Likewise:
Ravagers benefit from reroll auras, passengers in transports do not. So the Archon's Overlord or Writ of the Living Muse auras (pretty much the only value you'll ever be able to get out of your obligatory second Archon) ends up wasted on Raiders.
Moreover, 39 points might not seem like much, but across three ravagers, that's a difference of 117 points, which is pretty significant.
Well 39pts x3 is now 117pts and with a BH Archon the ravagers are getting re-roll 1's to hit and to wound. Poison it self isnt very good, those kabals with 7 Splinter rifles are only doing 1/65 or 3.11 wounds vs IG, and against SM 0.78/1.56, the re-rolls and saving points is why.
A Dissie Ravager also has many D2 weapons, where the Shredders are good but only 1D. This will kill 5 Primaris Marines a turn, it will kill bikes outright, and even hurt Custode bikes
Kabals with blasters/Lances or shredders/sc are good, but you dont want to over saturate with them, you will want the cheaper solid fire base that 3 Ravagers will bring.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 10:20:31
Cheers for the input, the Archon aura is a good point but I disagree with the 117pts gap since you need to account for all those extra wounds. My logic on this flows as:
Dark Lance Ravager + 10 Kabalites = 200 points
Dark Lance Raider + 10 Kabalites w/ Blasters = 179 points
Same wounds, same firepower (well, 2 splinter rifles down but, eh), save 21 points and layer the wounds like an onion so your opponent has to crack the vehicle first. You then keep your re-rolls to hit by using Flayed Skull since blasters in Raider have more than enough range.
I get the Disintegrator uses though, however vs multi-wound infantry/bikes I would argue for the Razorwing Jetfighter being the preferred option for the extra durability of -1 to hit it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 13:16:02
Command Points: Alliance of Agony
Total Command Points: 7 (+d3)
The general idea of this list is to flood the board with maximum threat overload by turn 2. While the Kabal forces are there to provide fire support, everything else in the army is there to provide some close combat punch. With the Grotesques riding around in a Raider, the Reavers zooming around, the Mandrakes coming in from reserve and the Wyches coming out of the webway, I'm looking at multiple nasty close combat threats swarming the enemy lines by turn 2. The Archon, Haemonculous and Succubus will all form a nice HQ party in the Venom with the Sslyth. The Scourges can either DS by turn 2, or can stay on the board (though I'm more inclined towards the former given the short range of blasters).
The only concern I have is that what I will have on the board will get wrecked by things like Astra Militarum, etc, by the time turn 2 rolls around. My biggest question is, am I leaving too little stuff on the board?
Also I'm seriously debating changing Strife to Red Grief to make better use of the Reavers, though if I do that, do you think it will still be worthwhile to take the Wyches as a DSing blob?
ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS: I'm considering ditching the Scourges for more Kabalites, and somehow fitting in a second Archon to turn the Flayed Skull Patrol into a Battalion (or alternatively, I could just drop the Coven
Your list is actually 2009, you forgot to add the 10pts for the archons blast pistol.
I like the individual parts but the list isn't wowing me. You built a gun line army using a codex that is arguably the most dynamic in the game currently and possibly ever. Beyond that DE don't do gunlines well. Sure you guaranteed the ravagers have at least 1 volley, which is a good tactic but without meaningful turn 1 threats to the opponent they will still lose out to better gun lines. That said, none of the units you have there are bad, your just going to end up with more options in the end. You really do want coven or cult in there.
Personally if I were starting from scratch I would go coven first easily. For 350 pts 10 grotesques are just stupidly good, and they fill all the holes DE have. You also then get talos that can fire and fade up the table turn 1, with HWB so you can advance and fire your looking at a minimum move of 16" out the gate. This is the type of forward pressure the DE need. Basically force them to deal with something that is inefficient to deal with while your shooting units fly around scoring and shooting.
Sounds like you want to go cult though, so I'd suggest MSU for them. 250 pts for reavers is too much IMO. That unit is not actually meaty at all. It also seduces you into burning all your CP's on them. Your making an incredible target of them, so then you burning 2 for LF reflexes, and generally 2 for moral and we haven't even done damage yet, couple that with the 3 ravagers using screaming jets and your basically out of CP's. Better to split them int 3x3, tie down 3 targets turn one, make them more annoying as targets and put them into an outrider for +1 rather then -1 CP. Use the blaster cost and odd bike to buy the succubus and arm her.
I am also not a massive fan of going all in on dissys. I find them incredibly fickle at AT, I hate letting my opponent roll saves, the more saves they roll, the more they pass. So sure mathhammer can tell me how great they are on a 5 turn average, but if ! roll flat or my opponent makes a few saves turn 1 I am hosed. Personally I still seem to do all my AT with darklight. Dissys murder elite infantry but you don't see much of that these days. Darklight can be equally fickle don't get me wrong, last game I played a rolled 3 1's in a row for blasters to wound rolls, but the difference is when I do hit and wound my opponent usually doesn't get to make a roll. Everyone has different experience with it though so I'd suggest you just use magnets and try both.
Thanks for the awesome feedback! I'm a little hesitant to go into covens due to $. Currently all the models in that list are what I own. Yes I am aware of the great conversions you can do with ogryn and crypt horrors, but I might hold off on that for at least a bit. I really do see what you mean by the grots presenting a great threat though. Yeah the big block of reavers would be a big target, but I figured with the -1 to hit that would give them a lot of survivability, but you are right in that I would be sinking too much into one blob when I could easily spread out the love. Do you think the blasters are not worth it? Their main job would be tying things up in meele for sure, but if they had a blaster that really gives them some anti-vehicle threat.
I can see merit in running blasters, depends on the list and how your intending on using them. I have been using them to tie shooters down with red grief, so I don't bother since 17 points is nearly another body and I need to make sure I have models survive, after all not all shooting units suck at assault and the bikes are not that durable despite being good for the DE. I think if you give blasters to them, they become even more of a problem for the opponent and definitely will need to die in their eyes, I just wouldn't plan on them doing much ever if you do take the blasters. I'd consider them extra icing and make sure I have plenty of AT else where, but that's me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Haywire Cannons are almost certainly going to be D6 shots instead of D3, as it stands the Cannon is identical to the Blaster, it just costs more.
I could also see it just having 3 shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lithanial wrote: Cheers for the input, the Archon aura is a good point but I disagree with the 117pts gap since you need to account for all those extra wounds. My logic on this flows as:
Dark Lance Ravager + 10 Kabalites = 200 points
Dark Lance Raider + 10 Kabalites w/ Blasters = 179 points
Same wounds, same firepower (well, 2 splinter rifles down but, eh), save 21 points and layer the wounds like an onion so your opponent has to crack the vehicle first. You then keep your re-rolls to hit by using Flayed Skull since blasters in Raider have more than enough range.
I get the Disintegrator uses though, however vs multi-wound infantry/bikes I would argue for the Razorwing Jetfighter being the preferred option for the extra durability of -1 to hit it.
I'm in no way advocating the replacement of ravagers, but that 117pt gap is also pretty misleading. Your required to take troops from a battalion anyway and those kabalites are fulfilling just that, so it would only be considered "extra" points if you went over the troop requirement and weren't taking a battalion. That said, in a battalion your looking at 3 units, and you'd be looking at 6 with that configuration, so you could either pay for more archons and take another battalion (more points and another detachment used on kabal) or combine those 5 man squads and then take a dark lance as well. Now your 199 (+20) but you have 4 dark light shots per boat which makes the configuration more appealing since you now have the output of 1.33 ravagers which is ~192 points.
So again, while not advocating for the replacement, I think a more appropriate framing for the idea would be to take them in addition since your stuck at a max of 3 ravagers now and you probably would be better off taking disintegrators on the ravagers at that point since you would have plenty of lances coming from your troops.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/05/02 13:44:24
I think people don't like taking a dark lance on Kabalites because of the -1 to hit while moving. Which upsets disproportionately to how often you go and roll a 3. Its a bit like the -1 to hit on the Succubi's Archite Glaive - you don't roll that many 2s. Its just that the weapon itself kind of sucks compared to say a thunder hammer with the same downside.
Anyway as said the main downside of people in a raider is you can't get rerolls - but then you could just jump out and shoot. Sure you risk being shot back (or assaulted) but kabalites are cheap even with a blaster so its not the end of the world.
On the other hand 36" range is another upside for ravagers too vs 18/24" on blasters. You should be able to get whatever you want even if you DS in turn 1.
I think they are great. At 10 points more than a triple darklance ravager they put out roughly the same firepower at t6 and 12 wounds. I want to get 3 just to park 3 of them and 3 ravagers around the writ archon.
I'm in no way advocating the replacement of ravagers, but that 117pt gap is also pretty misleading. Your required to take troops from a battalion anyway and those kabalites are fulfilling just that, so it would only be considered "extra" points if you went over the troop requirement and weren't taking a battalion. That said, in a battalion your looking at 3 units, and you'd be looking at 6 with that configuration, so you could either pay for more archons and take another battalion (more points and another detachment used on kabal) or combine those 5 man squads and then take a dark lance as well. Now your 199 (+20) but you have 4 dark light shots per boat which makes the configuration more appealing since you now have the output of 1.33 ravagers which is ~192 points.
So again, while not advocating for the replacement, I think a more appropriate framing for the idea would be to take them in addition since your stuck at a max of 3 ravagers now and you probably would be better off taking disintegrators on the ravagers at that point since you would have plenty of lances coming from your troops.
I don't think it's misleading since 3 ravagers are only 375 points if kitted with dis cannons or 420 with dark lances. You can stick all the troops you want. I always bring 3 ravagers (and a mandatory archon), while everything else can change. I prefer playing a kabal battallion with 3 ravagers and 3-5 5 man units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster each but sometimes I focus the army on wych cults or coven stuff, so I'm just using a kabal spearhead. But those ravagers are too amazing to consider more warriors in raiders or the air wing detachment and I don't own any FW vehicle.
15k+
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