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whembly wrote: What do ya'll think of the forgeworld Reaper unit?
Seems like a decent TAC for DE armies looking to maximize darklight shooting.
I had 3 Ravagers... and boy was I glad that I didn't get 6 more that I had queue'ed up just before the rule of 3 Beta rule dropped!
This is why I am happy about the rule of 3. Not trying to single you out, after all GW encouraged it, but that is awful for the game state lol.
BTW I think the reaper is a pass. It's to random and lacks the assault keyword on top of it's price. If you are hell bent on more gun ships then take the jetfighter.
I'm in no way advocating the replacement of ravagers, but that 117pt gap is also pretty misleading. Your required to take troops from a battalion anyway and those kabalites are fulfilling just that, so it would only be considered "extra" points if you went over the troop requirement and weren't taking a battalion. That said, in a battalion your looking at 3 units, and you'd be looking at 6 with that configuration, so you could either pay for more archons and take another battalion (more points and another detachment used on kabal) or combine those 5 man squads and then take a dark lance as well. Now your 199 (+20) but you have 4 dark light shots per boat which makes the configuration more appealing since you now have the output of 1.33 ravagers which is ~192 points.
So again, while not advocating for the replacement, I think a more appropriate framing for the idea would be to take them in addition since your stuck at a max of 3 ravagers now and you probably would be better off taking disintegrators on the ravagers at that point since you would have plenty of lances coming from your troops.
I don't think it's misleading since 3 ravagers are only 375 points if kitted with dis cannons or 420 with dark lances. You can stick all the troops you want. I always bring 3 ravagers (and a mandatory archon), while everything else can change. I prefer playing a kabal battallion with 3 ravagers and 3-5 5 man units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster each but sometimes I focus the army on wych cults or coven stuff, so I'm just using a kabal spearhead. But those ravagers are too amazing to consider more warriors in raiders or the air wing detachment and I don't own any FW vehicle.
Sure, but that's why you need to consider the context of what I wrote. It's misleading to simply look at the point deficit without considering how the army is organized which is what I pointed out. If your taking a spearhead then why on earth would you be taking troops? I was simply pointing out the merit if your taking a kabalite battalion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/04 19:37:01
Yeah but even in a kabal battallion you can easily bring 3-6 troops and 3 ravagers, like I usually do. Replacing those ravagers with more troops just looks sub-optimal, that's what I think. Even flyers are IMHO sub-optimal compared to ravagers but if you want a pure wych cult army they at least have a purpose.
I don't think ravagers compete with kabalites, but with flyers or FW vehicles.
I'm a big fan of the jet over the ravager myself. They have fairly equal firepower and cost about the same, but the flyer has -1 to be hit. They each have their own scoring advantages (ravagers being better at holding objectives but jets being better at scoring itc missions like recon or behind enemy lines). Last big difference to me is that with ravagers I feel like I have to deepstrike them costing me several cp. The jets I can deploy on the farthest back corners of my deployment and combined with the -1 to be hit they rarely get killed/crippled.
My Comp list has 3 of each lol..... BH Ravagers and a couple kabals/archons for 5cp, Flayed skull air wing detachment then vanguard coven with 3x3 grots, 1 unit of 3 talos and urien, a couple raiders for kabals and a few less drops
I just want to point out the rule of 3 is a tournament suggested rule, not a beta rule, but it seems many groups are taking it and using it anyways (mine is and I like it a lot honestly).
Having said that I always take a BH detachment of archon and 3 ravagers. I then have been toying with the obsidean rose for my main kabilite force. It's been working well so far. The rest of my points go to either wyches (reavers) or a homunculus with 3 talos units as my main hold the line force. Ravagers never disappoint, I understand trying to maximize an armys effectiveness but 3 ravagers and an archon is a straight forward and easy to use anti tank force. Mixing raiders and blasters to try to make a pseudo ravager that needs to get closer for extra wounds is kind of odd I think. I like my warriors as cheap as I can, mass splinter fire can make anything think twice about getting close.
Azuza001 wrote: I just want to point out the rule of 3 is a tournament suggested rule, not a beta rule, but it seems many groups are taking it and using it anyways (mine is and I like it a lot honestly).
While true it is only a suggested rule, it is a rule being adopted by nearly all tournaments. And considering a fair portion of competitive or semi competitive players are usually testing out tournament lists (even in local FLGS casual games), it's what is being used. Also, most (but not all) people that only play casual and/or narritive type 40k don't spend a ton of time on forum tactics threads. So I think it's fairly safe to treat the 'rule of three' as a real rule without the obligatory disclaimer posts that keep popping up all the time.
And I think the rule is overall good for the game too, even more so once everyone gets past the initial 'whine-about-every-change-that-affects-my-army'/ temporary-rage-quit phase.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
The rule of three comes with problems based on the design of some armies (guard don't care at all, while Dark Eldar can have some pretty notable problems with it). As the game goes forward though, this should become less of an issue. That said, it's an overall very positive change for the game. The same could be said of all the core rule changes of the big FAQ. The main problem is not what they did, but that they didn't do enough. If they slow the offensive pace of the game and bring gunlines to heel, 8th edition should stand in a pretty good place.
Fafnir wrote: The rule of three comes with problems based on the design of some armies (guard don't care at all, while Dark Eldar can have some pretty notable problems with it). As the game goes forward though, this should become less of an issue. That said, it's an overall very positive change for the game. The same could be said of all the core rule changes of the big FAQ. The main problem is not what they did, but that they didn't do enough. If they slow the offensive pace of the game and bring gunlines to heel, 8th edition should stand in a pretty good place.
What problems do we have? Only min squads of reavers could be a great choice without the rule of three. But we can still bring 36 bikes in total at 2000 points games. Maybe also ravagers but only because they're honestly undercosted and since we can bring 3 of them plus 6 flyers and other effective sources of anti tank I don't see the issue.
The main two things rule of three hurts for us is our HQs and courts. You can't take double Kabal battalions without the Drazhar tax, and no more than 3 Sslyth/Lhamaeans.
However other than that I don't see any problems for us. 3 Ravagers and 3 Razorwings is just as good as 6 Ravagers, and Talos can be taken in squads.
HQ limitations are the big one. It's not an enormous problem, since DEHQs outside of Haemonculi don't actually contribute a whole lot (which in itself is a bigger problem), but it can cause some annoying list building problems.
IMHO it's a positive thing. Going 2x of the same type of battallion sounds really boring with 4+ of the same HQ, I can't even play with more than 2 actually. The max 3 limitation encourages variety and I think it's a very good thing. Not to mention that we can still bring two different detachments of the same subfaction, even three if one of them is the air wing.
Blackie wrote: IMHO it's a positive thing. Going 2x of the same type of battallion sounds really boring with 4+ of the same HQ, I can't even play with more than 2 actually. The max 3 limitation encourages variety and I think it's a very good thing. Not to mention that we can still bring two different detachments of the same subfaction, even three if one of them is the air wing.
Not for kabals tho, MANY DE players loves kabals, started with kabal back in 3rd and still play them, it is by far the more popular option. Also we can not take Bridges without taking merchants and FW units for Kabals and Wyches, this is making us take 2-3 detachments no matter what. And if you "like" Kabals in Raiders, 2 Battles are very nice. No one complains when nids take 2 battalions or IG, even SM, DE shouldn't be any different, we have the options to take 3 battalions, its not our place to say they shouldnt due to "its boring"
With that said for tournaments DE rule of 3 wont effect us much at all, most liekly b.c we will be soup with CWE.
whembly wrote: Would a CWE with warpspiders be effective in a shooty Kabal list?
Trying to think of a decent CWE detachment that fills a need...
I like Swooping Hawks, but honestly even if Dark Reapers did go up in price they are still a must take and you will still see the 8-9 man unit as Ynnari, its 28-32 and still the 4D6 Tempest shots as Ynnari. Thats to good to past up.
I like Swooping Hawks b.c you can do MW's and still pump out 40 shots killing 8-9 GEQ, and those can be at different targets, then if you are not shot and killed can fly back up into the sky to do it again, b.c the ability is 12" and the guns are 24" you can do safer DS and not care.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/06 14:19:34
So much talk about kabals and no love for covens lately.
The question is - are all-footslogging covens (with grots DS bomb) is viable? By viable I don't mean "will tear a new one for every opponent in tournament", but rather "won't be wiped out by third turn".
Gimmicky, yes, but if you go nuts, you oughta go nuts with style.
Yes very so much yes, Grots and Talos are amazing, PoF with Urien and Haemonculus with the Vex Mask to stop Overwatch is really good.
Ive play many games now with 3 Talos plus 7-12 Grots and its been great. Especially when you have BH Ravagers and RWJF's to back them up along with your Kabals in Raiders, maybe if you have room some Wyches with Shardnets.
For comp? I dont think pure will do to well, they are like Necrons, easy to handle if you know how to.
A unit of Grots (6-10) some Talos will do wonders tho, they wont be a turn 1 threat like RWJFs and Ravagers are, so depending on deployment and play/rest of lists/opponent they could not even be shot at turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/06 20:21:36
Right now I'm thinking of 2 units of 10 grots in DS, some wracks in backfield camping objectives and 3 Talosi as general backup and anchor for 1,500 points. Grots without haemis will notice it only for like lasguns and and odd STR 5/10 weapons, same with urien - his buff will be useful for T3 models - and we are living in a harsh marinated world (me at least, there are only 2 guard, 1 Tyranids and 1 mechanicum player VS 6 marine players and 2 orks)
So i'm curious what i should use for my main dark eldar army with the new rules. DS on turn 2 instead of 1 would nerf scourge significantly (as if they needed it). I'm just unsure what to get. Should i keep my dissie ravagers and go dark lance on other units (like flyers)? Should i also keep my reavers and add a 2nd squad (two 9 man squads for 18)? I just dunno.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So i'm curious what i should use for my main dark eldar army with the new rules. DS on turn 2 instead of 1 would nerf scourge significantly (as if they needed it). I'm just unsure what to get. Should i keep my dissie ravagers and go dark lance on other units (like flyers)? Should i also keep my reavers and add a 2nd squad (two 9 man squads for 18)? I just dunno.
Nothing wrong with Scourges, they're a support unit not the main threat so there's no problem with them coming in turn 2. I'm looking at going 1 Tripple Lance, 2 Tripple Dissie with my Ravagers since I occasionally come across the harder targets that I'd rather have the lances for. Not sold on huge squads of Reavers myself, I'm thinking 2 or 3 squads of 6 since they seem to work best as fast objective grabbers and harrassment units.
Fafnir wrote: The rule of three comes with problems based on the design of some armies (guard don't care at all, while Dark Eldar can have some pretty notable problems with it). As the game goes forward though, this should become less of an issue. That said, it's an overall very positive change for the game. The same could be said of all the core rule changes of the big FAQ. The main problem is not what they did, but that they didn't do enough. If they slow the offensive pace of the game and bring gunlines to heel, 8th edition should stand in a pretty good place.
It does heavily (and I mean heavily) reduce the number of mortar teams you see in a standard guard artillery list, which is enough to make me happy it was implemented.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vexler wrote: Reassuring, thanks.
But what if we go deeper, go full monthy and go pure covens?
I've seen pure covens be pretty nasty, actually. You can get a Brigade fairly cheaply and effectively by bringing in lots of Scourges and Mandrakes which provide anti chaff, anti tank and board control, and unlike other dark eldar list setups, Covens and Prophets in particular don't really care that they'll be tanking the entirety of the enemy army for a turn or 2 before the deep strikers arrive.
The setup I've seen is
Urien
Haemonculus with Murderbuild (Vexator mask, EC whip, Hexrifle, Ichor Injector, +1 to wound trait)
Haemonculus with EC whip and Hexrifle
Wracks X6 with Hexrifles
2x Haywire scourges, 1x Shredder scourge
10x Grots
2x5 Mandrakes
2x3 Taloi with double cleaver+Haywire
Cronos
This list starts with enormous durability on the board, all in invuln saves which many opponents tend to struggle with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/07 11:45:46
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
flamingkillamajig wrote: So i'm curious what i should use for my main dark eldar army with the new rules. DS on turn 2 instead of 1 would nerf scourge significantly (as if they needed it). I'm just unsure what to get. Should i keep my dissie ravagers and go dark lance on other units (like flyers)? Should i also keep my reavers and add a 2nd squad (two 9 man squads for 18)? I just dunno.
Nothing wrong with Scourges, they're a support unit not the main threat so there's no problem with them coming in turn 2. I'm looking at going 1 Tripple Lance, 2 Tripple Dissie with my Ravagers since I occasionally come across the harder targets that I'd rather have the lances for. Not sold on huge squads of Reavers myself, I'm thinking 2 or 3 squads of 6 since they seem to work best as fast objective grabbers and harrassment units.
Well i liked shredder scourge (is that odd?). That said LoS and ruins made them have an iffy time even when they DS in turn 1. Reavers are ok-ish. I think the main power of reavers just comes in with holding gun-lines down. If you're facing a gun-line that's great but otherwise it's really not. Usually i don't think i'd need more than one big squad but vs guard i might. I suppose i don't see guard or tau much though. I still think shredder scourge combined with reavers assaulting after worked out sorta ok though.
Rule of 3 is tournament only so that's not a huge deal for me since i'm not into the tournie scene much.
One of my big issues is i feel like i need to axe dissie ravagers, shredder scourge or reavers and so far looking at my non-gunline meta it's probably gonna be the bikes but shredder scourge only have about a turn on their own before getting destroyed and don't seem to kill as much as i'd want them to. I still feel like i'd like to fix up my tactics with both a bit before completely getting rid of them but i dunno.
I kinda need a melee unit that can hit a DS'ing MEQ or TEQ army and i'd probably prefer covens to do that job (grotesques) but that can only happen if i drop the reavers and wych units and have 1/3 of my army go covens instead of wyches.
I understand some people felt ok about incubi but as time goes on this is increasingly a t4 or t5, 2 wounds and 3+ armor save battle with possible invulnerable saves or FnP. Incubi tend to do horrendous against some of those unless you have a lot of freaking incubi (maybe 20 at least). Anyway that's just what i think. Back in the day you could get away with 5 man squads and it could even do damage vs fairly elite marines and TEQ (though maybe die in the process) but now you either need numbers or stay home.
Looking for some feedback on a list. I had originally wanted to build around the Dark Creed, but leadership is just hopelessly broken as a mechanic at this point, and not worth investing in building an army around its exploitation until morale becomes an actual mechanic. So instead, I had something like this in mind:
While the goal would be to take advantage of leadership penalties, no unit would be relying on it as its entire gimmick. Flayed Skull could be changed for anything really, I'm not hugely attached either way. The second ravager was originally intended for a second unit of grotesques in an earlier draft, but the move to a spearhead instead leaves it dead weight at the moment, and I'm not sure what to do with it. I could easily drop the lone Talos and Cronos (who, let's face it, is pretty mediocre anyway, especially with Eldrad dropping Doom like it's hot) for another unit of grots to fill it, but then I'd also need one more elite, and the only thing I can comfortably fit under that point allowance would be Incubi. And as much as I love them aesthetically and fluff-wise, they're pretty trash.
Still, one unit of Incubi in a raider (the Incubi absolutely cannot be expected to footslog), one unit of grots with the combat Archon, and one unit of grots chilling with Urien might be the better choice than this current loadout.
Eldrad exists for psychic control, tossing out doom, mind warring suitably debuffed targets, and general mortal wound spam with executioner/smite. Irillyth adds further leadership pressure, and is a surprisingly versatile and well performing character in my experience. The lack of an invulnerable save hurts, but his toolbox usually makes up for it. The spiritseer would be given a power dependant on the matchup, and additional psychic control. Another toolbox character.
Basic strategy would be to harass with the Kabalites and Ravagers while running the raiders up the field, dropping their cargo and joining in the combat to block off space and scare things with their grisly trophies (for this reason, I'm thinking of going back to the Incubi/Grots/Grots/3Talos draft to improve the turn-2 combat saturation). The Talos would also threaten their way up the table in the meantime.
I'm looking for all kinds of feedback, but the biggest thing I'm stuck between is the grot/cronos/3talos/talos loadout, or the grot/grot/incubi/3talos one. I'm not looking to hurt anyone's feelings, but I do want to make a list that can at least stand a chance in a semi-competitive environment.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/08 04:33:28
I personally dont like venoms at all, so not a fan of list 2. I cant wait to see counter meta and see how well DE does then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fafnir wrote: Really surprised to see the Kabal detachment in that first list not actually utilizing kabalites.
Im not, my Kabals dont do much at all other than the blaster, the 12 of them (3 with blaster, but im talking about the SPlinter) they might get in 3-4 wounds all game, Wracks just do a bit better IMO and being PoF you can spend CP's to throw them somewhere else and bring back a few bodies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 07:20:51
The problem is counting drukhari isnt exactly easy. Certain builds anyway. For dealing with raiders especially you go to far to being able to handle a dozen of them, and you weaken yourself to the usual tanks and vehicles the meta expects
Automatically Appended Next Post: What has been peoples experiences so far? What has your drukhari force really struggled against? Especially looking at full mech drukhari, I have had a couple of games against some matchups that I thought would be tough and they have not been as challenging as I expected.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 11:22:00
Wyldcarde wrote: The problem is counting drukhari isnt exactly easy. Certain builds anyway. For dealing with raiders especially you go to far to being able to handle a dozen of them, and you weaken yourself to the usual tanks and vehicles the meta expects
Automatically Appended Next Post: What has been peoples experiences so far? What has your drukhari force really struggled against? Especially looking at full mech drukhari, I have had a couple of games against some matchups that I thought would be tough and they have not been as challenging as I expected.
I suffered my first really spectacular defeat at the hands of a (post-FAQ) pure Militarum Tempestus army. Most of the units didn't deep strike at all, just started aboard Valkyries and Taurox Primes, and the fact that my vehicles are actually really susceptible to hellguns when they use the special reroll wounds order on them combined with those Tauroxes packing a pair of autocannons plus another nasty weapon each really hurt.
I even got first turn, but I (I guess somewhat foolishly) spent most of my anti-tank firepower taking down a Forgeworld Vulture he had, which I figured would be the biggest threat to just grinding out my transports or sweeping the squads inside.
After that a lot of the tanks went down on both sides, but my kabalites were faced with the fact that our troops were around the same cost, but he got 4+ armor saves and I did not get any armor saves vs hellguns.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
