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Oh the UN? Never any anti Israeli bias from them


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But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron

Israel has good reason to be wary, but they overreact horribly. No other western country would be able to get away with that they do.

The Israeli government have earned the censure they receive, but they don't care.

 Ustrello wrote:
Oh the UN? Never any anti Israeli bias from them


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But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron

Well, the UN represents pretty much the entire world (apart from disputed territories like Palestine, Taiwan etc.). So if almost the entire world thinks something is wrong with you...
There is no real anti-Israel bias in the UN. None of the influential countries within the UN has anything against Israel. The truth of the matter is just that Israel is doing some things that are just wrong, and if any other country started doing the same things they would rapidly become an international pariah under heavy sanctions, like North Korea or apartheid-era South Africa. So really, the UN is exceptionally lenient and favourable towards Israel. The UN allows Israel to get away with things no other country could ever get away with.

 Ustrello wrote:

Sure they mean disaster, but lets be honest here no one is lining palestinians in front of trenches shooting them in the necks and dumping their corpses in said trenches in Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so lets not be disingenuous here and try to make the two to be the same

No, not in the Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics, but yes, those things actually have gone on. Dawayima springs to mind. To this day, no one knows how many died there.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre




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 Ustrello wrote:

But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron

I ain't glossing over gak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


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 Iron_Captain wrote:

Well, the UN represents pretty much the entire world (apart from disputed territories like Palestine, Taiwan etc.). So if almost the entire world thinks something is wrong with you....

When you elect an indicted war criminal as prime minister, perhaps....

21 times the UN has tried to issue penalties and sanctions against Israel for various fun and games including war crimes, human rights violations, violations of international treaty, piracy on the high seas... it's a list. The US has used security council veto to shut it down rather frequently. To the degree that Obama was taken to task by Israel for not saving them again when a fresh batch of war crimes came in.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

And if that was the case, there might be a case, but the Israelis literally started tank fire when two men looked suspicious. Before the 17k people part, or any petrol bombs. You know, killing people unjustly, the same sort of things that does bring out thousands of protestors in the UK and US.

Mate, I'm not quite understanding what you're saying.

1. If a bunch of tanks fire on a group of people, one would think that there'd be considerably more casualties than 17. Explosive rounds are quite lethal.
2. If this tank fire started before the 17k people or petrol bombs, wouldn't that be a separate incident to the one me and the BBC article you linked are talking about?
3. If the seventeen people were killed by the Israeli army before they started trying to climb the walls and lobbing petrol bombs and in a massive mob, doesn't that mean that the Israeli Army showed loads of restraint and killed nobody when the huge mob of 17k people showed up?

You're raising more questions than you're answering here.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The UN allows Israel to get away with things no other country could ever get away with.

Like murdering people in other countries?

 Ketara wrote:
If a bunch of tanks fire on a group of people, one would think that there'd be considerably more casualties than 17. Explosive rounds are quite lethal.

There's a lot of conflicting information atm, but for some reason they're all being considered part of the same thing since they happened at the same time. Chicago Tribune is saying that the farmer was killed when the tank shell went wide and hit them in his field. The early reports simply listed the farmer as the first casualty, since he was hit near the boarder fence. Some reports claim he shot at the Israelis and that's why they fired, but others say he simply looked suspicious. So, it's a bit of a mess in the press.

And, yes, they make a mess, which is why pictures of his body are not included in my posts.

 Ketara wrote:

2. If this tank fire started before the 17k people or petrol bombs, wouldn't that be a separate incident to the one me and the BBC article you linked are talking about?

Well, again, depending on the report, there were not tanks, and no petrol bombs, there were lots of all of them, there were flaming tires rolled, people were trying to destroy the fence, people were no where near the fence... it's the usual mess. Video taken during it shows fleeing people being shot in the back, so I'm guessing that things went sideways and Israel wants those reports to go away without being looked at too closely, as they've refused any inquest into them.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Well, the story is getting a bit tangled atm..... So, it's a bit of a mess in the press..... Israel wants those reports to go away without being looked at too closely, as they've refused any inquest into them.

So......nobody is actually sure what happened, but you're not letting that stop you making loads of generalisations, assumptions, and vague conspiracy theories?

Gotcha.

 Ustrello wrote:

But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron

WEll, people who were there are appearently doing it:


https://www.haaretz.com/holocaust-survivors-condemn-israel-for-gaza-massacre-1.5260588

 Ketara wrote:

So......nobody is actually sure what happened, but you're not letting that stop you making loads of generalisations, assumptions, and vague conspiracy theories?
Gotcha.

You asked specifically about the first two guys. I answered. As far as the rest of it goes... Israel released one story, then it looked bad, so they then claimed they were shot at. It's the five o'clock follies, I can't disprove any of them, so I have to discalme that since i know someone heree will go get an article on Der Sturmer or someplace to refute anything that my articles say.


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 Ketara wrote:

3. If the seventeen people were killed by the Israeli army before they started trying to climb the walls and lobbing petrol bombs and in a massive mob, doesn't that mean that the Israeli Army showed loads of restraint and killed nobody when the huge mob of 17k people showed up?

Yes, as much as the Washington and London police forces show when they don't slaughter protesters there. you're basically claiming that what amounts to a very small protest was all the justification that's needed to butcher people. It's telling that despite having tear gas on hand, and rubber bullets, they decided to use live ammo on them instead. 750 to 1200 people were wounded, but only 17 have died so far. Some while fleeing.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

You asked specifically about the first two guys. I answered. as far as the rest of it goes. Also, mod, nice 'fixed' post there.

Another question occurred after I finished typing but before I'd seen you reply. I hit 'edit' and inserted it. That being, y'know, what the button is there for, User #2009/05/29/8.

Yes, as much as the Washington and London police forces show when they don't slaughter protesters there.

It would be somewhat strange for an Army unit to light up over a dozen people using tanks when there's a bare handful of them peacefully waving signs/whatever, and then put all their guns/tanks away and use purely non-lethal measures when 17,000 people roll into town with Molotovs and start trying to dash the border

Heck, more than somewhat strange, I'd say it would be downright bizare.

Yes, as much as the Washington and London police forces show when they don't slaughter protesters there. you're basically claiming that what amounts to a very small protest was all the justification that's needed to butcher people.

I made no comments as justifying anything by anyone. I merely highlighted the strange scenarios outlined in your own statements, because they're somewhat confusing. Your story appears to change and twist depending on the questions asked (because as you've now admitted above, you actually don't know what happened).

It's telling that despite having tear gas on hand, and rubber bullets, they decided to use live ammo on them instead.

Didn't your own link say that tear gas was deployed? By drones, nonetheless?

 Orlanth wrote:
Israel has good reason to be wary, but they overreact horribly. No other western country would be able to get away with that they do.

The Israeli government have earned the censure they receive, but they don't care.

No other Western government is surrounded by people who literally want to kill every citizen in their country. I mean come on, we thought Mexico had it bad.

"Poor Mexico. So far from God. So close to the United States.'

After poking around a little, I now see that the protest is organised by Hamas. That is to say, the organisation which deliberately puts mortar positions next to civilians and threatens to shoot them if they flee, as well as shifting bodies killed by Israeli counterfire to decorate multiple places in order to vastly inflate the count of casualties for UN observers.

I also see, looking elsewhere, that it's reported that in at least one instance, a Hamas gunman opened fire from the crowd. And that the crowd attempted to shield people trying to break holes in the wall, as well as egging on children to get involved.

Here's shots of the Israelis tear gassing a section of crowd.



The Israelis say that they only shot the ones trying to actively break down the wall; but logically, if people were trying to shield ones breaking down the wall, it makes sense that there would have been collateral damage.

I'm just going to file this under the 'Stupid crap orchestrated by Hamas to provoke a heavyhanded IDF response so that they can wave some inflated casualty figures around' box. A box which is much bigger than anyone would like.

 Frazzled wrote:

No other Western government is surrounded by people who literally want to kill every citizen in their country.

Frazz, remember, they said that the Jews were conspiring to murder every German, too. And people in Germany at the time claimed that was a perfectly good reason to round up the Jews.

 Ketara wrote:

Didn't your own link say that tear gas was deployed? By drones, nonetheless?

Yes, they did, somewhat late in the game.


However, my point still stands about before they used the available non-lethal options, they started with snipers and live ammo.




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 Ketara wrote:

The Israelis say that they only shot the ones trying to actively break down the wall; but logically, if people were trying to shield ones breaking down the wall, it makes sense that there would have been collateral damage.

With your permission, Mod, I'll post the videos of them shooting the people running away here.

For those that would like a censored version, they can go here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-gaza-violence-protests-deaths-land-day-tanks-bullets-hamas-a8283676.html

AlJazzera has the same shooting from a slightly different angle.


Oh, and, just, FYI: this is part of the Gaza boarder fence. They're gonna climb it or tear it down by hand?

 Ketara wrote:
After poking around a little, I now see that the protest is organised by Hamas. That is to say, the organisation which deliberately puts mortar positions next to civilians and threatens to shoot them if they flee, as well as shifting bodies killed by Israeli counterfire to decorate multiple places in order to vastly inflate the count of casualties for UN observers.

I also see, looking elsewhere, that it's reported that in at least one instance, a Hamas gunman opened fire from the crowd. And that the crowd attempted to shield people trying to break holes in the wall, as well as egging on children to get involved.

Here's shots of the Israelis tear gassing a section of crowd.



The Israelis say that they only shot the ones trying to actively break down the wall; but logically, if people were trying to shield ones breaking down the wall, it makes sense that there would have been collateral damage.

I'm just going to file this under the 'Stupid crap orchestrated by Hamas to provoke a heavyhanded IDF response so that they can wave some inflated casualty figures around' box. A box which is much bigger than anyone would like.

The pics show how much a utter hell of a mess it is. You have 17,000 put there, alone hundreds before the fence and a maybe camped dozens of metres away, 5-6 IDF troops on that position. Maybe more off camera with jeeps and so. Even with reserves they managed to put a massive danger on that border. 17,000 out there, few hundred maybe on other side.

You got everyone out there, you god IDF. You got people egging em on, and more. You got every single part to make a very bad situation worse in a very short time.

You have everyone, you have everything there to cause a massive problem..

Hamas definitely caused it. But IDF walked into a trap.
A big propaganda trap.

 jhe90 wrote:
You have 17,000 put there, alone hundreds before the fence and a maybe camped dozens of metres away,

Actually that big berm in the foreground is between the small fence and the actual boarder fence.



This was elsewhere, but the design is the same, though some places have concrete walls instead of fence.

Hamas is admitting five of the dead were Hamas fighters.

 Frazzled wrote:
Hamas is admitting five of the dead were Hamas fighters.

Fewer than the 'nearly all' that Israel is claiming.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

With your permission, Mod, I'll post the videos of them shooting the people running away here.

I don't know, User #2009/05/29/8. The secret Israeli Overlords of the Internet might not approve of that. What's the exact content?

For those that would like a censored version, they can go here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-gaza-violence-protests-deaths-land-day-tanks-bullets-hamas-a8283676.html

I just watched the video. I saw a guy running away from the fence getting hit with what looked like a rubber bullet and knocked over, before getting back up and carrying on running. Would (by any chance) the full video (since there's only a scant handful of seconds censored) consist of him falling over again before the footage cuts out?

BaronIveagh wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
You have 17,000 put there, alone hundreds before the fence and a maybe camped dozens of metres away,

Actually that big berm in the foreground is between the small fence and the actual boarder fence.



This was elsewhere, but the design is the same, though some places have concrete walls instead of fence.

BaronIveagh wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Hamas is admitting five of the dead were Hamas fighters.

Fewer than the 'nearly all' that Israel is claiming.

OK.. Well slightly different fence design but this is still inside the 500m or so "no go" zone they enforced on the border region on Gtaza side of the fence.

The whole tent camp puts them very much closer to the fences than before. This ramps up the tension for both sides, Hamas, Israel both using this situation for there own ends. The people on the ground are caught up between both there plots and plans.

Between em is a bunch of poor sods out there between the guns of Israel and Hamas.

And that just shows how hard it is to trust accounts from the area with there both vested intrests in various naritives.

 Ketara wrote:
Would (by any chance) the full video (since there's only a scant handful of seconds censored) consist of him falling over again before the footage cuts out?

No. The two guys who come out and help him, the one in the black shirt gets a real bullet and just sort of flops over mid stride. You can hear the shot in the audio from the Independents version, Al jazeera has no audio.

And the US once again blocks investigation into Israeli activities:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/blocks-unsc-statement-israel-force-land-day-180401054016894.html

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Would (by any chance) the full video (since there's only a scant handful of seconds censored) consist of him falling over again before the footage cuts out?

No. The two guys who come out and help him, the one in the black shirt gets a real bullet and just sort of flops over mid stride. You can hear the shot in the audio from the Independents version, Al jazeera has no audio.

Evidence seems to be in rather short supply.

Ah the combination of religion, history, and violence that we all love so much.

 jhe90 wrote:

Evidence seems to be in rather short supply.

Yes, video of the shooting from several angles is not sufficient evidence. We need to see him blown away with our own eyes, in person, after he's filled the form in triplicate.

Abdelfattah Abdelnabi was, according to sources, the guy's name. Feel free to google him.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/video-shows-palestinian-shot-dead-israeli-snipers-180331102311374.html

This is the al jazeera footage. You'll see him around 40 seconds into the article.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Simple solution.

Israel gives up land. Agrees that Jerusalem has a joint authority.
.
Palestine denounces Hamas, recognises right of Israel to exist and improves its treatment of women and minorities.

Everything else can be worked out round the negotiation table.







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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is going to go like it always goes, with the international community shrugging its shoulders and going "oh those Israelis/Palestinians".

Pretty excessive response for what so far should be more of a riot police situation.

Excessive elsewhere. par for the course in this region of the world.

Israel will mount operations against Hamas and I cant say i'll be too disappointed.

Israel has offered to give up land a number if times in the last 70 years. Palestinians reject it every times regardless of how generous.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Israel has offered to give up land a number if times in the last 70 years. Palestinians reject it every times regardless of how generous.

They did nothing of the sort. Try reading some of their proposals. I liked the Camp David one, 'We'll return your land except for the land, which will actually remain ours, maybe with the exception of Gaza, which you already have.' The annexations and security arrangements would have divided the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert–about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex–including a former toxic waste dump.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Israel has offered to give up land a number if times in the last 70 years. Palestinians reject it every times regardless of how generous.

They did nothing of the sort. Try reading some of their proposals. I liked the Camp David one, 'We'll return your land except for the land, which will actually remain ours, maybe with the exception of Gaza, which you already have.' The annexations and security arrangements would have divided the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert–about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex–including a former toxic waste dump.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U

 cuda1179 wrote:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U

Nice cartoon, it's omissions were staggering. but, hey, what can you expect from a book company that touts it's origins as a CIA counter soviet operation out to preserve christian democracy.

 Ketara wrote:

It would be somewhat strange for an Army unit to light up over a dozen people using tanks when there's a bare handful of them peacefully waving signs/whatever, and then put all their guns/tanks away and use purely non-lethal measures when 17,000 people roll into town with Molotovs and start trying to dash the border

Heck, more than somewhat strange, I'd say it would be downright bizare.

The tank shelling incident happened hours before the protest on the fence. Security was heightened because the protest had been announced for days and after a parsley farmer was "acting suspicious close to the border". I don't know how suspicious his parsley-picking method was, but "close" was over 1km away from the fence. It was this farmer that was killed by the tanks firing several shells on his position.

This in turn caused the protest that had been announced for days to be bigger and probably angrier than it would have been.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

Sure they mean disaster, but lets be honest here no one is lining palestinians in front of trenches shooting them in the necks and dumping their corpses in said trenches in Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so lets not be disingenuous here and try to make the two to be the same

No, not in the Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics, but yes, those things actually have gone on. Dawayima springs to mind. To this day, no one knows how many died there.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre




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 Ustrello wrote:

But continue to gloss over the fact that you tried to make the holocaust and the nakba the same there baron

I ain't glossing over gak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


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 Iron_Captain wrote:

Well, the UN represents pretty much the entire world (apart from disputed territories like Palestine, Taiwan etc.). So if almost the entire world thinks something is wrong with you....

When you elect an indicted war criminal as prime minister, perhaps....

21 times the UN has tried to issue penalties and sanctions against Israel for various fun and games including war crimes, human rights violations, violations of international treaty, piracy on the high seas... it's a list. The US has used security council veto to shut it down rather frequently. To the degree that Obama was taken to task by Israel for not saving them again when a fresh batch of war crimes came in.

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

Evidence seems to be in rather short supply.

Yes, video of the shooting from several angles is not sufficient evidence. We need to see him blown away with our own eyes, in person, after he's filled the form in triplicate.

Abdelfattah Abdelnabi was, according to sources, the guy's name. Feel free to google him.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/video-shows-palestinian-shot-dead-israeli-snipers-180331102311374.html

This is the al jazeera footage. You'll see him around 40 seconds into the article.

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)

 Ustrello wrote:

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here

130+ Holocaust survivors in Israel signed an open letter making the same comparison. I'll take their word for it over yours.

 Ustrello wrote:

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)

That's nice, but totally irrelevant. They just showed the same murder the British caught from uphill and to the left. The only difference was the British censored the actual killing whereas AJ ran it unedited. So, how does their bias negate that it showed something that actually happened?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

Still not making your case here bud, I get it you identify with the palestinians because of your circumstances but you are grasping at straws here

130+ Holocaust survivors in Israel signed an open letter making the same comparison. I'll take their word for it over yours.

 Ustrello wrote:

And AJ is a state sponsored mouthpiece, who routinely shows anti-israeli bias (I believe we went over this before with the burning of a Jewish holy site that was not reported on by AJ, but instead played up the response by Israel)

That's nice, but totally irrelevant. They just showed the same murder the British caught from uphill and to the left. The only difference was the British censored the actual killing whereas AJ ran it unedited. So, how does their bias negate that it showed something that actually happened?

130+ out of nearly 100,000? I bet you I can find 130 former Wehrmacht soldiers who thought Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy pretty easy as the numbers between the two groups are comparable.

Because it was talked about earlier that the dude got up and kept running, but keep on spinning those "facts" there son