US Politics

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**BaronIveagh**

Grey Templar wrote:

You'll maybe recall Garcia Zarate. .

Apparently better than most, since i do seem to recall him being found not guilty.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

The other thing that grinds my gears is people claiming that illegal immigrants somehow have a right to be in this country.

You must never had ICE stop you and card you leaving your workplace. I'm a Native American. If they want to question MY right to be here, then their white assess need to get back on the fething boat.

**NinthMusketeer**

Kilkrazy wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
... ... ...

... ...

Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't believe it is necessary to bring the western world crashing down to convince Trumpists that they are wrong, and actually I"m not sure they wouldn't find a way to blame someone else when it happened.

For now, concentrate on the mid-term elections. Then concentrate on stopping Trump from a second term.
I'm optimistic about the long term impact, which certainly factors into my opinion. At any rate it's not so much about teaching the depusional but rather teaching the massive number of people who stayed home because this just wasn't important enough for them to spend a day of their time on.

I think you do have to think about the so-called "delusionals".

To ignore their concerns and win by mobilising the opposition will only entrench the divisive attitudes that seem to have gripped the USA in recent decades.

I'm not saying you should give in to them, but I think you do have to engage with them and try to persuade them that their ideas are not working.

You have to reach out and persuade people who think climate change is a swizz, or that the Laffer Curve works, or that trickle-down economics make the poor better off.

It shouldn't be too hard to get these points over because reality increasingly obviously is on your side. But it's a potentially humiliating climb-down for a lot of people who need to un-nail their colours from those various masts. You can help get them through that by not trying to humiliate them.

I mean these people are often accused of being stupid, but they aren't stupid. They've got something else pushing their views, and part of it probably is resentment at the way the the other side talks about them.

It's been tried. A lot. Sometimes in a poorly done snarky way sometimes in an honest try-to-help-the-country way. It hasn't worked, and more than that it has shown no signs that it will. At some point one needs to recognize that effort is better spent on people willing to be convinced. The nature of delusion is that their opinion is not logically based on the evidence at hand, meaning that trying to appeal using the evidence at hand is an uphill battle from the start. Look at certain posters in this thread that have had the same concepts broken down for them repeatedly yet they simply refuse to change their position. In face of that it's irresponsible NOT to focus on other people.

**Kilkrazy**

There are ways to persuade "deniers".

Take anti-vaxxers, for example. Medical psychologists have found that they resist the approach based on showing there is nothing wrong with vaccines.

Instead, the anti-vaxxers were given a lot of information about how bad measles can be for their children. This was found to be a much more effective approach.

**Grey Templar**

Rosebuddy wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

I guarantee you that if he had been wanted on some other charge, like capital murder or something, San Francisco would have held him. They let him go only because they want to stick it to ICE.

ICE is the US Gestapo so any city or state sticking it to ICE is to be applauded.

Grey Templar wrote:

The other thing that grinds my gears is people claiming that illegal immigrants somehow have a right to be in this country.

They are on balance no better or worse than you, and you get to live in the US, so there's no reason to deny them the inherent right to live in the same enormous country that you do. People should have the freedom of movement.

Wow, calling them the Gestapo is so far off base. When they’re herding people into gas chambers is when you can make that comparison.

And no, you do not have a right to enter other countries. That is a privilege that is granted at whim from each country’s immigration forces. The only people with a right to live in any particular country are that country’s citizens.

I don’t have the right to go live in Sweden, just like you don’t have the right to come live in the US. We could petition to become citizens and gain that right, but it’s not a default position.

**Ustrello**

Grey Templar wrote:
Rosebuddy wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

I guarantee you that if he had been wanted on some other charge, like capital murder or something, San Francisco would have held him. They let him go only because they want to stick it to ICE.

ICE is the US Gestapo so any city or state sticking it to ICE is to be applauded.

Grey Templar wrote:

The other thing that grinds my gears is people claiming that illegal immigrants somehow have a right to be in this country.

They are on balance no better or worse than you, and you get to live in the US, so there's no reason to deny them the inherent right to live in the same enormous country that you do. People should have the freedom of movement.

Wow, calling them the Gestapo is so far off base. When they’re herding people into gas chambers is when you can make that comparison.

And no, you do not have a right to enter other countries. That is a privilege that is granted at whim from each country’s immigration forces. The only people with a right to live in any particular country are that country’s citizens.

I don’t have the right to go live in Sweden, just like you don’t have the right to come live in the US. We could petition to become citizens and gain that right, but it’s not a default position.

Gunna correct you a bit there it was the Einsatzgruppen and Death Heads that were responsible for the rounding up and killing of people. The Gestapo just arrested them and were a secret police force, so the comparison is more apt than you are falsely leading people to believe

**Rosebuddy**

Grey Templar wrote:

Wow, calling them the Gestapo is so far off base.

Unaccountable secret agents who track people down and wisk them and their children away to camps with not even the same standards and oversight of prisons because they're considered racially undesireable. The US seems to be pretty rapidly transition from the Weimar phase to the "we weren't told about camps" phase.

Grey Templar wrote:
I don’t have the right to go live in Sweden, just like you don’t have the right to come live in the US. We could petition to become citizens and gain that right, but it’s not a default position.

You have the same right to live here as anyone else does. There's nothing mystical about this geographical position that only allows for certain people to live here. Not like the Finns only live in Finland because they're magically repelled by the border line, like someone hit a tennis ball against a wall.

**BaronIveagh**

Grey Templar wrote:

And no, you do not have a right to enter other countries. That is a privilege that is granted at whim from each country’s immigration forces.

Ehh..... No, we have a treaty with both the US and Canada that basically says we have that right. Further, most of Europe actually DOES have that right, IIRC, as members of the EU.

So, I'll say that this is more unique to the US then you might think.

And the Gestapo thing is actually a bit correct with ICE. Remember that US immigration law was, and still is in some cases, pretty racist AND classist. Remember, a white billionaire can become a us citizen in 1/25th the time that it takes a Mexican computer programmer. In fact, if you're poor, or, apparently, fleeing slavery at the hands of terrorists (an actual case where US courts SENT THEM BACK, as being unwilling slaves was 'providing material aid to terrorists'), you need not apply.

So much for 'your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.'.

**Disciple of Fate**

So Trump's economic advisor Navarro just said on TV that there is a special place in hell for Trudeau. Top notch diplomacy in action.

**Dreadwinter**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
So Trump's economic advisor Navarro just said on TV that there is a special place in hell for Trudeau. Top notch diplomacy in action.

How dare Trudeau do whatever he did to the leader of this great Christian nation! Call the Pope! Lets get the inquisition involved!

**BaronIveagh**

Dreadwinter wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
So Trump's economic advisor Navarro just said on TV that there is a special place in hell for Trudeau. Top notch diplomacy in action.

How dare Trudeau do whatever he did to the leader of this great Christian nation! Call the Pope! Lets get the inquisition involved!

Trump's already on his Holiness' gak list. No help coming from Christ on this one.

**Disciple of Fate**

What do you mean? Wasn't it funny when Trump joked if the Vatican got attacked by ISIS he would let the Pope rot for mocking him? Surely just light jesting amongst friends

**Peregrine**

Grey Templar wrote:

I guarantee you that if he had been wanted on some other charge, like capital murder or something, San Francisco would have held him. They let him go only because they want to stick it to ICE.

Well yes, of course that was the reason. But having a reason doesn't make it criminal obstruction or aiding a fugitive.

**NinthMusketeer**

Kilkrazy wrote:
There are ways to persuade "deniers".

Take anti-vaxxers, for example. Medical psychologists have found that they resist the approach based on showing there is nothing wrong with vaccines.

Instead, the anti-vaxxers were given a lot of information about how bad measles can be for their children. This was found to be a much more effective approach.

Hm, I'm not sure how well that would work given that it isn't a single compartmentalized issue, nor is it as simple a cause-and-effect. How would one go about it? I'm also still left questioning how much responsibility there is to put the effort into delusional parties when the same effort spent on apathetic parties could do more to help the country.

**thekingofkings**

Rosebuddy wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

Wow, calling them the Gestapo is so far off base.

Unaccountable secret agents who track people down and wisk them and their children away to camps with not even the same standards and oversight of prisons because they're considered racially undesireable. The US seems to be pretty rapidly transition from the Weimar phase to the "we weren't told about camps" phase.

Grey Templar wrote:
I don’t have the right to go live in Sweden, just like you don’t have the right to come live in the US. We could petition to become citizens and gain that right, but it’s not a default position.

You have the same right to live here as anyone else does. There's nothing mystical about this geographical position that only allows for certain people to live here. Not like the Finns only live in Finland because they're magically repelled by the border line, like someone hit a tennis ball against a wall.

ICE is not "unaccountable". and your own country reserves the rights to reject immigrants as well https://www.government.se/491b2f/contentassets/84c1ec8c729f4be384a5ba6dddeb0606/swedens-migration-and-asylum-policy

**BaronIveagh**

thekingofkings wrote:

ICE is not "unaccountable".

Um.... actually...

http://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/379201-congressional-accountability-measures-for-ice-are-long-overdue

They're about as close as it gets in the US. Even court rulings do not seem to slow them down.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/its-now-certain-federal-agents-broke-the-law-to-implement-trumps-first-travel-ban.html

**thekingofkings**

BaronIveagh wrote:
thekingofkings wrote:

ICE is not "unaccountable".

Um.... actually...

http://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/379201-congressional-accountability-measures-for-ice-are-long-overdue

They're about as close as it gets in the US.

They are under the jurisdiction of and are accountable to DHS. Not every agency reports directly to congress,."you guys" are trying to pretend they are some rogue agency doing whatever they want and reporting to noone and thats just not true.

**BaronIveagh**

thekingofkings wrote:
"you guys" are trying to pretend they are some rogue agency doing whatever they want and reporting to noone and thats just not true.

Well, being a government employee who's had ot deal with them, yes. While they might not be answerable to congress, they most certainly are answerable to courts. Or should be, but DHS has refused to reign them in, no matter what judges rule.

If by 'you guys' you mean those of us who keep YOUR personal data private, yes, we do think that of them, what with demanding information that can only be released by A) act of Congress or B) a warrant, they can go fly a kite until I see one of those two things.

**Vulcan**

Vaktathi wrote:
Trump refuses to sign G7 statement, threatens Canada, insults Trudeau on Twitter

Welp.

Anyone surprised at this? Anyone at all?

**thekingofkings**

BaronIveagh wrote:
thekingofkings wrote:
"you guys" are trying to pretend they are some rogue agency doing whatever they want and reporting to noone and thats just not true.

Well, being a government employee who's had ot deal with them, yes. While they might not be answerable to congress, they most certainly are answerable to courts. Or should be, but DHS has refused to reign them in, no matter what judges rule.

If by 'you guys' you mean those of us who keep YOUR personal data private, yes, we do think that of them, what with demanding information that can only be released by A) act of Congress or B) a warrant, they can go fly a kite until I see one of those two things.

By "you guys" I mean folks on the thread. I rely on the Chinese to safeguard my data since the OPM has done such a wonderful job of protecting it so far.

**Mario**

Grey Templar wrote:The real threat from illegals is the unknown. They haven’t been screened by immigration to ensure they aren’t a security threat. Illegals provide cover for the smuggling of drugs and other illicit items into the country. And frankly it’s surprising we haven’t had any terrorists and other terrorist related stuff get smuggled across down there.

Doesn't the same apply to every US citizen too? Every one of them could be an unknown threat. Or were you all screened and confirmed to not be a security threat to the US? What makes US citizen so special that they can't commit those (or other) crimes? Shouldn't all of them be screened? You know, just to be on the safe side as you seem to be very concerned about security and terrorism.

**Vulcan**

Da Boss wrote:
Trumps behaviour at the G7 is fething unacceptable. I hope we treat the US with the same contempt it has shown us, in future.

No, treat TRUMP that way, please. The rest of us don't deserve it.

**LordofHats**

Democracy cannot function when the people responsible for handing out political authority refuse to take responsibility for who they give it to.

**Tannhauser42**

Vulcan wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Trumps behaviour at the G7 is fething unacceptable. I hope we treat the US with the same contempt it has shown us, in future.

No, treat TRUMP that way, please. The rest of us don't deserve it.

Elections have consequences. I've said it before, the US cannot survive without the rest of the world, but the rest of the world can survive without the US, and that's a lesson that some people need to learn.

**BaronIveagh**

thekingofkings wrote:

By "you guys" I mean folks on the thread. I rely on the Chinese to safeguard my data since the OPM has done such a wonderful job of protecting it so far.

Oh, you think I'm with OPM! ROFL.

I work for SSA. Believe me, we know more about you than OPM would ever, in it's wildest dreams, know about you, your children, your parents, grand parents, great gransparents, if you've had a job in the US, we know about you.

Our office has never had a breach. Because you'd have to physically get in here. 300 feet under ground, with armed round the clock security. and one big assed door. A Vault Tech, eat your heart out, big assed door, that can take a direct 10 megaton hit.

**thekingofkings**

BaronIveagh wrote:
thekingofkings wrote:

By "you guys" I mean folks on the thread. I rely on the Chinese to safeguard my data since the OPM has done such a wonderful job of protecting it so far.

Oh, you think I'm with OPM! ROFL.

I work for SSA. Believe me, we know more about you than OPM would ever, in it's wildest dreams, know about you, your children, your parents, grand parents, great gransparents, if you've had a job in the US, we know about you.

Our office has never had a breach. Because you'd have to physically get in here. 300 feet under ground, with armed round the clock security. and one big assed door. A Vault Tech, eat your heart out, big assed door, that can take a direct 10 megaton hit.[/quote

Didnt know who you worked for (really none of my business) but OPM are the folks who lost all my stuff (along with a LOT of other peoples)

**Elemental**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Trumps behaviour at the G7 is fething unacceptable. I hope we treat the US with the same contempt it has shown us, in future.

No, treat TRUMP that way, please. The rest of us don't deserve it.

Elections have consequences. I've said it before, the US cannot survive without the rest of the world, but the rest of the world can survive without the US, and that's a lesson that some people need to learn.

Part of me does hope that the next President's first international address is simply "So....shall we just pretend that didn't happen?" And almost everyone nods and looks relieved.

**d-usa**

A significant chunk of the population elected Trump because he promised that “feth you world, ‘Murica forever” would be his foreign policy. So we are really getting what he promised.

**BaronIveagh**

thekingofkings wrote:

Didnt know who you worked for (really none of my business) but OPM are the folks who lost all my stuff (along with a LOT of other peoples)

They lost mine too. It was a total clusterfeth, but not out of our office.

**Frazzled**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Trumps behaviour at the G7 is fething unacceptable. I hope we treat the US with the same contempt it has shown us, in future.

No, treat TRUMP that way, please. The rest of us don't deserve it.

Elections have consequences. I've said it before, the US cannot survive without the rest of the world, but the rest of the world can survive without the US, and that's a lesson that some people need to learn.

Not if we decide it doesn't...

**AdeptSister**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
... ... ...

... ...

Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't believe it is necessary to bring the western world crashing down to convince Trumpists that they are wrong, and actually I"m not sure they wouldn't find a way to blame someone else when it happened.

For now, concentrate on the mid-term elections. Then concentrate on stopping Trump from a second term.
I'm optimistic about the long term impact, which certainly factors into my opinion. At any rate it's not so much about teaching the depusional but rather teaching the massive number of people who stayed home because this just wasn't important enough for them to spend a day of their time on.

I think you do have to think about the so-called "delusionals".

To ignore their concerns and win by mobilising the opposition will only entrench the divisive attitudes that seem to have gripped the USA in recent decades.

I'm not saying you should give in to them, but I think you do have to engage with them and try to persuade them that their ideas are not working.

You have to reach out and persuade people who think climate change is a swizz, or that the Laffer Curve works, or that trickle-down economics make the poor better off.

It shouldn't be too hard to get these points over because reality increasingly obviously is on your side. But it's a potentially humiliating climb-down for a lot of people who need to un-nail their colours from those various masts. You can help get them through that by not trying to humiliate them.

I mean these people are often accused of being stupid, but they aren't stupid. They've got something else pushing their views, and part of it probably is resentment at the way the the other side talks about them.

It's been tried. A lot. Sometimes in a poorly done snarky way sometimes in an honest try-to-help-the-country way. It hasn't worked, and more than that it has shown no signs that it will. At some point one needs to recognize that effort is better spent on people willing to be convinced. The nature of delusion is that their opinion is not logically based on the evidence at hand, meaning that trying to appeal using the evidence at hand is an uphill battle from the start. Look at certain posters in this thread that have had the same concepts broken down for them repeatedly yet they simply refuse to change their position. In face of that it's irresponsible NOT to focus on other people.

This is something that the Democratic party has been questioning for awhile. Clinton's (Hillary and Bill's) approach was to be moderate and hopefully get some swing republicans. But looking at the some of the primaries, the democrats look to stop trying to convince moderate republicans (because its looking more like they will vote R regardless) and try to actually please their base. Its hard for democrats to be willing to compromise when the other side threw out the rulebook (Full obstruction during the Obama years, SCOTUS Nomination, Nunes blatant covering of possible Trump issues , etc.) We will see if this works.