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 whembly wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Again, I do not care. How is he as sleazy as Blagojevich?

Does he amount to the level of Blagovich's corruption? No, of course not.

Next time, leave out all the bullgak and just post this. Because again, I do not care about your opinion of the man.

 whembly wrote:
Frazz said and I quote "elect Blagoyivich level sleazebag Newsom as Governor?".

It is *you* who chose to interpret that Frazz is saying Newsom was a criminal.

Blagojevich's sleaze resulted in him being convicted on 41 counts, and being sentenced to 14 years in federal prison. You're trying to argue Frazzled compared Newsom to Blagojevich for his sleaze, but not his criminal sleaze. It's a plainly ridiculous argument.

It's also a completely pointless argument that means nothing. Because even if we pretended Frazzled was only comparing to Blagojevich's non-criminal sleaze, Frazzled has still failed to substantiate any slease from Newsom. Frazzled didn't even try. He just blathered some nonsense about people know, then wandered off and came back later to complain about Newsom's gun control. At which point you and one of the other usual suspects came rushing in, ignoring Frazzled false allegation and trying to pick up on his attempt to walk past his dishonest claims.

But you saying that this is "yet another instance of Republican mud slinging..." is downright insulting.

Frazzled made an allegation with nothing to support it. When called on it he didn't admit error, he first tried defend it with vague nothingness, then tried to walk past it. That's the textbook definition of mudslinging. And it is a pattern that right wingers repeat constantly, here and across the media.

If that insults you, stop associating with these people.

Your abject hatred of anything Republican is blinding you to much of these conversations... as its one of the reasons why I've stepped back a bit.

You step back, it just doesn't matter. You'll still turn up on election day and loyally vote for your team.

Me and Frazz has stated numerous times that we had issues with the Republican party and in Trump in particular....

And claiming you have a problem with Trump and only Trump is a big part of the problem. It's like walking out of The Wicker Man and saying Cage's acting was really hammy and somehow missing everything else wrong with that movie. There is so much else wrong with the Republicans than just Trump, he is a symptom of a gravely broken political party. Remember during the election when you guys were saying Trump wouldn't be that bad because Republicans would obstruct him as much as Democrats? That's because you guys somehow still thought your Republican party had values, but now when asked if they would impeach the president for pardoning himself, a grand total of 1 Republican House member said he would. Far from trying to constrain him on anything mundane, they won't even move against him if he declares personal immunity from the law.

It's attitude like this, is a large part of "why Trump won". I can hear you rolling your eyes...

No, it was more of tired, kind of bored sigh.

Trump won because 62 million Americans voted for him. Those 62m people and they alone are responsible. The party of personal responsibility won't even take responsibility for its own president.

Moving on from the Newsomovitch/Blagosom topic...

Reviewing the events of the weekend, the US President has managed to make himself look like a petulant child to our closest allies and economic partners, has engaged in direct ad-hominem attacks on said allies, appeared to be cosying up to Putin in calling for Russia to be re-included, and ultimately was hoist by his own petard so to speak, with basically nothing positive coming out of the G7 talks for the US, and Merkel now increasingly shouldering the mantle of "Leader of the Free World" in terms of who the "free world" looks to for *actual* leadership.

Now, the US President has ducked out of that meeting early, to go meet with North Korea over denuclearization talks after he unilaterally scrapped them earlier, then decided to put them back on. The President has openly stated he has done 0 preparation for this meeting, and believes he'll know "within the first minute" if Kim will really give up his nuclear weapons. This is, of course, after an exhaustively negotiated multilateral deal with Iran on their nuclear power program was just unilaterally scrapped by the President because...reasons.

Thus is the current standing of the United States in international affairs less than 18 months into Donald Trump's presidency.

And 87% of his party approves of his job performance.

Lets hope the NK talks go well...

Really? 87%? That seems high, even for Republicans.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Really? 87%? That seems high, even for Republicans.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx


Donald Trump Job Approval by Party Identification
Weekly averages from Gallup Daily tracking 2018 May28-June 3

Republicans - 87%
Independents - 34%
Democrats - 11%

Wait, am I reading that right. Is he polling lower than Jimmy Carter at the same point in their run? Because if so. Wow.

Trump's rating is climbing though it's still historically low for this stage of his term.

Trump's election is clearly all cultural, and it is derived from a certain form of "hopelessness" that then leads to Nihilism. Hence, the more "petualant" and "stick it to 'em" he is to other nations, the more his popularity will increase.

What are the Democrats going to bring to the table to help the voters find "hope" in the Mid-terms and want to vote for them? I haven't seen much Nationally, but maybe there is more at the local level.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/11/trump-world-order-who-will-stop-him?CMP=fb_gu

Tl-dr, trump has all the cards. Interesting article. Thoughts?

Edit: I don't know how 'valid' the arguments are, though they fly against my own personal thoughts on the subject, but at least it's interesting to see a different viewpoint. I often worry that although I think I read a variety of sources, they might not be as varied as I think, and feel 'echo chambers' are dangerous. For that reason alone, I think it's interesting to see an alternative viewpoint. I was just curious if others could decipher it as having value or not.

Deadnight wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/11/trump-world-order-who-will-stop-him?CMP=fb_gu

Tl-dr, trump has all the cards. Interesting article. Thoughts?

Well the article fails to mention the nearly 4000 point drop the stock market took less than 6 months ago, and while it has been going up it has not been going at the same rate pre-Trump. The market readjustment will come and it will come in the next few years most likely exacerbated by Trumps and by extension the GOP's terrible economic plans.

Also the author is the Greek minister of Finance that screwed things up in 2015 so I will take whatever he has to say with a grain of salt

Well. I'm not sure what the guy's point is.

The pattern of the USA being the centre of commerce and political organisation for the western world is what we've had since the end of WW2. Basically it's been a good thing for the whole world, including the USA. (Let's ignore inequality within the USA, because that's a separate matter. We also have to Ignore lots of very unfortunate local lumpy bits which in the long run of history are gradually being smoothed out.)

The difference now is that Trump is smashing up that successful system without any apparent vision of what is to replace it (anyone remember the New American Century?) and there is a huge potential rival in the People's Republic of China, who have a very different and unpleasant vision of the future.

I mean, if the argument is that Trump might get a second term, I don't think that can be ruled out. It depends partly on when the next crash of the US economy happens and that isn't likely in the next 3 years. Would a second Trump term totally destroy the international world order? Trump's wacky fake anti-establishment reactionaryism isn't the only force at work in the world. The demographics are moving against the forces of reaction, and so is climate change.

Deadnight wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/11/trump-world-order-who-will-stop-him?CMP=fb_gu

Tl-dr, trump has all the cards. Interesting article. Thoughts?

Its a terrible argument. Varoufakis has increasingly started writing articles that seem more inspired by glee than reason.

1. The economic momentum at home is mostly the economy pushing through the Obama years into the Trump years. Its been on the upswing for years now, that isn't the Trump admin building momentum, the momentum was already building before he got in.

2. The idea that the US can't lose a trade war is mental. First, this assumes competent people are running the trade war show. Second, you most certainly can politically lose a trade war. Screwing over your closest allies is a good way to end your decades of global hegemony. Third, the others don't have to win, just punish the Trump voters enough that they might reconsider in 2020 and ending by getting in someone else.

3. The hubs and spokes system sounds funny, but in many ways that already exists because countries are willing to engage with a friendly US. What he describes though, the bilateral deals? Its exactly what China did, you know what the other countries did, found the TPP to counter such pressure by forming a bloc. If the US is going to be that belligerent what if that bloc starts moving in the direction of China? The US is seriously risking its hegemonic position if it starts to get too nationalistic.

4. His Iran example is very weak. Its a single nation with an underdeveloped economy and little investment compared to the US. But we're talking about a trade war with most of the top 10 GDP countries in the world, if those stand together that is a lot less insignificant than Iran. Remember,Iran only got sanctioned by the US which is why those German companies pulled out, in this scenario we're talking sanctions from both sides without a neutral third party (i.e. German companies).

It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).

Meaning....as long as jobs/economy is still rocking, he’ll have a more than a fighting chance at a 2nd term.

Since it doesn’t look like the mueller investigation will amount to anything, I’m hoping he doesn’t go after the 2nd term and goes out “while he’s winning”. But we all know his ego won’t allow that,,,

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

 whembly wrote:
It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).
.

Bill Clinton

 whembly wrote:
It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).

Meaning....as long as jobs/economy is still rocking, he’ll have a more than a fighting chance at a 2nd term.

Since it doesn’t look like the mueller investigation will amount to anything, I’m hoping he doesn’t go after the 2nd term and goes out “while he’s winning”. But we all know his ego won’t allow that,,,

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

I'm curious, how does 5 guilty pleas and something like 19 indictments indicate it'll amount to nothing, especially when some of the charges are conspiracy against the US?

 skyth wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).
.

Bill Clinton

James Carville, who worked for Bill Clinton.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).

Meaning....as long as jobs/economy is still rocking, he’ll have a more than a fighting chance at a 2nd term.

Since it doesn’t look like the mueller investigation will amount to anything, I’m hoping he doesn’t go after the 2nd term and goes out “while he’s winning”. But we all know his ego won’t allow that,,,

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

I'm curious, how does 5 guilty pleas and something like 19 indictments indicate it'll amount to nothing, especially when some of the charges are conspiracy against the US?

Because Fox news and the GOP delusion machine (is there a difference between the two? ) says it is

 whembly wrote:

Since it doesn’t look like the mueller investigation will amount to anything, (snip)..

I am curious. What do you base that on?

 whembly wrote:

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

As repeated over and over again, why would anybody ever negotiate with the US again? There's no point doing it when the Dems are in the White House and don't control congress due to Republican obstructionism and the now fact that a republican president will throw any agreement into the bin, and there is no point doing it when the Republicans are in power as they are completely detached from reality on pretty much every international issue.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).

Meaning....as long as jobs/economy is still rocking, he’ll have a more than a fighting chance at a 2nd term.

Since it doesn’t look like the mueller investigation will amount to anything, I’m hoping he doesn’t go after the 2nd term and goes out “while he’s winning”. But we all know his ego won’t allow that,,,

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

I'm curious, how does 5 guilty pleas and something like 19 indictments indicate it'll amount to nothing, especially when some of the charges are conspiracy against the US?

He's saying there is nothing tying Trump yet.

The other point to consider is this. If the Democrats sweep in 2018, there will be great pressure on non Democrats to vote for Trump, to avoid complete control.

Oh crap I am posting here again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

As repeated over and over again, why would anybody ever negotiate with the US again? There's no point doing it when the Dems are in the White House and don't control congress due to Republican obstructionism and the now fact that a republican president will throw any agreement into the bin, and there is no point doing it when the Republicans are in power as they are completely detached from reality on pretty much every international issue.

There isn't if you are just negotiating with the Pres. You have to negotiate actual treaties that are constitutionally passed by Congress and signed.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Since it doesn’t look like the mueller investigation will amount to anything, (snip)..

I am curious. What do you base that on?

The plea deals are for process crimes (ie, lying to the FBI). Manafort is being charged for things unrelated to the campaign. None of those will be enough to impeach from the House & removed from office by super-majori Senate.

Sure it’s possible that Mueller is keeping something close to vest... but so far.? I wouldn’t hold your breath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nels1031 wrote:

 skyth wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).
.

Bill Clinton

James Carville, who worked for Bill Clinton.

Yup!

Smart campaign manager.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

As repeated over and over again, why would anybody ever negotiate with the US again? There's no point doing it when the Dems are in the White House and don't control congress due to Republican obstructionism and the now fact that a republican president will throw any agreement into the bin, and there is no point doing it when the Republicans are in power as they are completely detached from reality on pretty much every international issue.

And I’ve pointed out that the international community knows this from day one.

If you want something to withstand the test of time we have formal process to enter into international treaties. If not, such agreements can be rescinded by next administration via the pen.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s the economy stupid. (I forget who coined that).

Meaning....as long as jobs/economy is still rocking, he’ll have a more than a fighting chance at a 2nd term.

Since it doesn’t look like the mueller investigation will amount to anything, I’m hoping he doesn’t go after the 2nd term and goes out “while he’s winning”. But we all know his ego won’t allow that,,,

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

I'm curious, how does 5 guilty pleas and something like 19 indictments indicate it'll amount to nothing, especially when some of the charges are conspiracy against the US?

He's saying there is nothing tying Trump yet.

The other point to consider is this. If the Democrats sweep in 2018, there will be great pressure on non Democrats to vote for Trump, to avoid complete control.

Oh crap I am posting here again.

Why would you assume that? Many people voted independent so they wouldn't have to vote for Trump. I mean if they didn't want Trump then, why would..... Ooooooh yeah I get you. Team red votes for team red whenever there is a chance of obstructing democrats and the government.

Can we do that bet again d-USA, I have a new date for when I think Whembly will flip!

 whembly wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

The international order will be tested fir sure with another 4 years of trump..but we’re Marylyn talking about changing deals right? Those can be changed again with a different potus.

As repeated over and over again, why would anybody ever negotiate with the US again? There's no point doing it when the Dems are in the White House and don't control congress due to Republican obstructionism and the now fact that a republican president will throw any agreement into the bin, and there is no point doing it when the Republicans are in power as they are completely detached from reality on pretty much every international issue.

And I’ve pointed out that the international community knows this from day one.

If you want something to withstand the test of time we have formal process to enter into international treaties. If not, such agreements can be rescinded by next administration via the pen.

Which means that for the purpose of international agreements, you have less than 2 productive years out of every 4 or 8 years. One hell of a way to lose a global order.

 Frazzled wrote:

He's saying there is nothing tying Trump yet.

The other point to consider is this. If the Democrats sweep in 2018, there will be great pressure on non Democrats to vote for Trump, to avoid complete control.

As a non Democrat, I'd sooner vote Libertarian. Let's be honest, the Republican party as a bastion of conservatism has died. It's a freak show now, with nothing to offer us but hollow promises and conspiracy theories.

We need a return to the Bull Moose party.

Whig Party 2020

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

He's saying there is nothing tying Trump yet.

The other point to consider is this. If the Democrats sweep in 2018, there will be great pressure on non Democrats to vote for Trump, to avoid complete control.

As a non Democrat, I'd sooner vote Libertarian. Let's be honest, the Republican party as a bastion of conservatism has died. It's a freak show now, with nothing to offer us but hollow promises and conspiracy theories.

We need a return to the Bull Moose party.

Libertarians are just as bad tbh. Most of them are just Republican Lite.

A Libertarian is someone who thinks that small government is the best thing for America. A Republican is someone who says that small government is the best thing for America, but doesn't really mean it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
there is a huge potential rival in the People's Republic of China, who have a very different and unpleasant vision of the future.

When the Chinese start invading other countries willy-nilly, that might perhaps be true. But right now, at this very moment, in the grand scheme of things, the Chinese are clearly the good guys.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
there is a huge potential rival in the People's Republic of China, who have a very different and unpleasant vision of the future.

When the Chinese start invading other countries willy-nilly, that might perhaps be true. But right now, at this very moment, in the grand scheme of things, the Chinese are clearly the good guys.

Well to be fair, what Russia does with 10k square mile Peninsulas, China really wants to do with about 1.3 million square miles of international waters so... yeah that's a thing. Short memories and all that. China would love to be able to say "we put in our best effort."

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

He's saying there is nothing tying Trump yet.

The other point to consider is this. If the Democrats sweep in 2018, there will be great pressure on non Democrats to vote for Trump, to avoid complete control.

As a non Democrat, I'd sooner vote Libertarian. Let's be honest, the Republican party as a bastion of conservatism has died. It's a freak show now, with nothing to offer us but hollow promises and conspiracy theories.

We need a return to the Bull Moose party.

I 100% agree with that...

Or the blue dog democrats makes a comeback.