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 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Reading you guys talk about trump right now almost reminds me of the night he got elected. I wonder what the reaction will be the same when this turns out to be a good deal...

As I just told my co-worker:

If this turns into the real deal, I will take back my hostile attitude towards it, apologize if I need to. He may even get my vote in 2020. Until then, this is just him running his mouth with no idea what hes doing. For having the "best memory", he also seems to have the issue of "his recollection keeps changing". Time shall see, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

EDIT: Spelling.

It seems to me that if Trump can denuclearise Korea it will be great, but that will have to be balanced against his re-nuclearising Iran, which is in a considerably more volatile region.

On aggregate Trump would come out with a deficit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Has the NK congress ratified this letter yet? Can the next Kim just trash it?

Didn't Kim kill off all of his successors?

No he killed off the old guard/his competitors. He still has a sister and a wife, given his age and if he isn't sterile or something, getting kids is on the table.

China appears to have known about drill cancellation, Pentagon and SK have received no such orders


Mueller's team must inform defense of "the identify of any individuals or entities alleged to be the 'others, including former senior foreign politicians' whom Manafort allegedly cause to act as foreign agents without registering by Friday June 15.

Well, according to the Trump administration and many people in here, they signed a worthless non-binding paper since the POTUS can’t make any deals with anyone that actually matter.

I’m surprised Kim didn’t insist on meeting with our Congress and the real leaders of making deals rather than our figurehead.

 d-usa wrote:
Well, according to the Trump administration and many people in here, they signed a worthless non-binding paper since the POTUS can’t make any deals with anyone that actually matter.

I’m surprised Kim didn’t insist on meeting with our Congress and the real leaders of making deals rather than our figurehead.

Maybe that's why he is coming to Washington?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You know nothing about trump if you think he'd make a bad deal. His entire ego is about making good deals. He wrote a best selling book - called - the art of the deal.

But he's a pretty bad businessman, when you get down to it. He's got several failed projects behind him, hotels, casinos, even an airline. Some were saved by financiers on the condition Trump provides only his name and stays out of daily management.

I'll give him kudos on his fearless attitude though, there's nothing he thinks he can't do.

Well hes done quite a lot - became a billionaire while simultaneously being a bad business man and then became president of the United States. When nobody said he could. LOL. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a huge fan of him myself. I do think he has a skill set and a presence that leads him to win in negotiations. Some of the dumbest people I know get deals on cars and boats when they buy them and I can't believe they paid so little. That is the way I see Trump. Hes like your standard Redneck type guy that can walk out of a dealership with 10k off his new Chevy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Reading you guys talk about trump right now almost reminds me of the night he got elected. I wonder what the reaction will be the same when this turns out to be a good deal...

As I just told my co-worker:

If this turns into the real deal, I will take back my hostile attitude towards it, apologize if I need to. He may even get my vote in 2020. Until then, this is just him running his mouth with no idea what hes doing. For having the "best memory", he also seems to have the issue of "his recollection keeps changing". Time shall see, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

EDIT: Spelling.

It seems to me that if Trump can denuclearise Korea it will be great, but that will have to be balanced against his re-nuclearising Iran, which is in a considerably more volatile region.

On aggregate Trump would come out with a deficit.

That is a good point - I never really considered Iran denuclearized anyways though. I don't trust Iran. I don't trust NK anymore - I do think NK has a lot to gain from coming out of their closet and joining the world. They have an image of what they could have been just south of them I think. The suffering - being broke...that has to get old.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

That assumes that Kim actually cares about getting a deal with Trump/The USA.

He may well do, because apparently the sanctions are biting hard.

OTOH he may not care, since he's now got his day in the international top table diplomacy sun, and the Chinese are talking about scaling back their sanctions.

Let's ignore the Republican bs-tronic view for a moment and review the gains and concessions on both sides.

Kim got a world peace summit with the President of the USA, and the Chinese started talking about ending sanctions. He didn't make any promises or concessions.

Trump got a world peace summit with the hereditary dictator of North Korea. He abandoned the previous US principle of verifiable and irreversible denuclearisation, and he promised to end military preparedness against a state which is at war with the UN. He also green-lit NK's human rights abuses.

This clearly is 5-0 to Kim.

Sorry, I broke the swear filter again.

 d-usa wrote:
Well, according to the Trump administration and many people in here, they signed a worthless non-binding paper since the POTUS can’t make any deals with anyone that actually matter.

I’m surprised Kim didn’t insist on meeting with our Congress and the real leaders of making deals rather than our figurehead.

This is true - which is why we aren't going to get the real details until trump addresses congress. Even the worthless democratic congressmen will have no choice but to go along with any possitive NK deal Trump made with Kim. Otherwise - they risk losing support from their voter base.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

Most countries in East Asia would rather have the US stay in the region, on account that China is the one filling in as Great Satan in East Asia.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Well, according to the Trump administration and many people in here, they signed a worthless non-binding paper since the POTUS can’t make any deals with anyone that actually matter.

I’m surprised Kim didn’t insist on meeting with our Congress and the real leaders of making deals rather than our figurehead.

This is true - which is why we aren't going to get the real details until trump addresses congress. Even the worthless democratic congressmen will have no choice but to go along with any possitive NK deal Trump made with Kim. Otherwise - they risk losing support from their voter base.

The real details are what's written in the signed statement. Everything else is meaningless, and most of it a product of Trump's overactive imagination.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That assumes that Kim actually cares about getting a deal with Trump/The USA.

He may well do, because apparently the sanctions are biting hard.

OTOH he may not care, since he's now got his day in the international top table diplomacy sun, and the Chinese are talking about scaling back their sanctions.

Let's ignore the Republican bs-tronic view for a moment and review the gains and concessions on both sides.

Kim got a world peace summit with the President of the USA, and the Chinese started talking about ending sanctions. He didn't make any promises or concessions.

Trump got a world peace summit with the hereditary dictator of North Korea. He abandoned the previous US principle of verifiable and irreversible denuclearisation, and he promised to end military preparedness against a state which is at war with the UN. He also green-lit NK's human rights abuses.

This clearly is 5-0 to Kim.

Sorry, I broke the swear filter again.

China just wants a piece of the pie. The can get some too if they play nice.

What, so that's a win for... the USA? How?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

I think it is fair to say that no matter what happens, even if Trump should actually manage to finally bring peace to Korea, US troops will be staying in South Korea and at least Japan for the foreseeable future. South Korea may actually send US troops away at some point as part of a peace process or even reunification with the north, but Japan is going to want to keep them around seeing as that Japan is far from friendly with both China and Korea.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

Most countries in East Asia would rather have the US stay in the region, on account that China is the one filling in as Great Satan in East Asia.

You will miss us when we are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

I think it is fair to say that no matter what happens, even if Trump should actually manage to finally bring peace to Korea, US troops will be staying in South Korea and at least Japan for the foreseeable future. South Korea may actually send US troops away at some point as part of a peace process or even reunification with the north, but Japan is going to want to keep them around seeing as that Japan is far from friendly with both China and Korea.

What they want and what happens may be very different things.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Well hes done quite a lot - became a billionaire while simultaneously being a bad business man and then became president of the United States. When nobody said he could. LOL. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a huge fan of him myself. I do think he has a skill set and a presence that leads him to win in negotiations. Some of the dumbest people I know get deals on cars and boats when they buy them and I can't believe they paid so little. That is the way I see Trump. Hes like your standard Redneck type guy that can walk out of a dealership with 10k off his new Chevy.

All of Trump's businesses have performed below the stock market average. If he had taken the money he inherited from his dad and just stuck it in an index fund he would be 3 times richer today than he actually is.

Since 1988, Trump's wealth has increased by 300%, whilst the S&P500 has grown by 1366% since that time.

http://fortune.com/2015/08/20/donald-trump-index-funds/

As for getting a discount on a Chevy, literally anyone can do that. If you're not driving the price down then you're paying way over the value of the car.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What, so that's a win for... the USA? How?

I can imagine a joint effort between China and the United states to rebuild NK into a civilized and prosperous nation. It could be a good thing if china also decides they want to throw down the hatchet and start doing business. With prosperity will come social change. All positive things. Ofc it could go another way - I chose to be positive right now.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

Most countries in East Asia would rather have the US stay in the region, on account that China is the one filling in as Great Satan in East Asia.

You will miss us when we are gone.

I mean by the time when the US is gone you will miss it too, because such a dramatic shift in 70 years of policy will probably be bad news for the US overall.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Observe the magic of having a few months pass by and changing a few letters in a countries name

Iran:

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Well, he pulled out of the deal. I guess we all know what America's word is worth now, eh?

Sure... go with that.

If you wanted it enshrined, it needed to be ratified as a treaty.

I think the countries would know that...

So, do you believe there is no diplomatic solution?

Sure... sanctions.

North Korea:

 whembly wrote:

I mean the status quo wouldseem to be continuing the same things over and over again.... adopting a Mean Girls tactic by ignoring their existence and hope really, really hard that sanctions would change their despicable ways?

Many believed we’re on brink of war.... seems like Trump rattled Kim a bit and brought him to the table. Once at the table... did you expect Trump to continue his “ rocket man” and “my nuke button is bigger” rhetoric??? This is his weird version of diplomacy...

Now if he tries to give away the candy store without significant concession... I’ll be right there with you in condemning trump. But considering an ugly war may be on hold for the time being... I’m willing to see how this unfolds.

NK already has nukes with recent advancement of ICBM that can reach US soils. Iran isn’t there yet, so sanctions is still an effective tool for Iran, especially for a country who wants to be a regional powerhouse. NK’s leadership seems content to maintain power over their country.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

Most countries in East Asia would rather have the US stay in the region, on account that China is the one filling in as Great Satan in East Asia.

You will miss us when we are gone.

I mean by the time when the US is gone you will miss it too, because such a dramatic shift in 70 years of policy will probably be bad news for the US overall.

Why?

 d-usa wrote:
Well, according to the Trump administration and many people in here, they signed a worthless non-binding paper since the POTUS can’t make any deals with anyone that actually matter.

I’m surprised Kim didn’t insist on meeting with our Congress and the real leaders of making deals rather than our figurehead.

So... you think previous potus can bind future potus??? Because that’s really what you’re saying....

 whembly wrote:
NK already has nukes with recent advancement of ICBM that can reach US soils. Iran isn’t there yet, so sanctions is still an effective tool for Iran, especially for a country who wants to be a regional powerhouse. NK’s leadership seems content to maintain power over their country.

North Korea is the prime example of why just blindly trusting sanctions doesn't work in these instances. One of the poorest and most underdeveloped countries in the world managed to develop nuclear weapons under heavy sanctions. How would sanctions cripple Iran's ability to develop nukes when it couldn't even stop NK when the world was on the same side?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

On the positive, it's a great excuse for the US to start pulling troops out of the region. Just think of all the countries will celebrate when the Great Satan leaves the area to the beneficent China.

Most countries in East Asia would rather have the US stay in the region, on account that China is the one filling in as Great Satan in East Asia.

You will miss us when we are gone.

I mean by the time when the US is gone you will miss it too, because such a dramatic shift in 70 years of policy will probably be bad news for the US overall.

Why?

Because nobody, not even someone as disruptive to US international politics as Trump has seriously considered pulling back US troops. If the moment comes that US troops pull out of the region, that likely means a serious decline of US influence and power, plus the knock on effect for the US's economic system. Unless we have an even more bonkers person becoming president that is.

US troops aren't going anywhere in any kind of foreseeable future.

If anything more troops might be moving to East Asia because of China.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You know nothing about trump if you think he'd make a bad deal. His entire ego is about making good deals. He wrote a best selling book - called - the art of the deal.

But he's a pretty bad businessman, when you get down to it. He's got several failed projects behind him, hotels, casinos, even an airline. Some were saved by financiers on the condition Trump provides only his name and stays out of daily management.

I'll give him kudos on his fearless attitude though, there's nothing he thinks he can't do.

I literally giggled when I read that comment by Xeno. I know posting that is skirting rule #1 but honestly I don't think there's a serious response to be had to such a blatantly false sentiment.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The basic point is that Trump has gone off script and promised to halt exercises, without any concession from Kim.

All Kim did at this meeting, in the statement, was to reaffirm the statement he had given back in April, to denuclearise Korean peninsula.

Whether you think this was a great piece of negotiation on Trump's part seems to depend on whether you are a Republican.

The Auld Grump

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You know nothing about trump if you think he'd make a bad deal. His entire ego is about making good deals. He wrote a best selling book - called - the art of the deal.

But he's a pretty bad businessman, when you get down to it. He's got several failed projects behind him, hotels, casinos, even an airline. Some were saved by financiers on the condition Trump provides only his name and stays out of daily management.

I'll give him kudos on his fearless attitude though, there's nothing he thinks he can't do.

I literally giggled when I read that comment by Xeno. I know posting that is skirting rule #1 but honestly I don't think there's a serious response to be had to such a blatantly false sentiment.

Trump didn't write that book. It was ghost-written for him. The real author got a 50% perpetual deal, which is unheard of, without having to negotiate about it.

The truth is that Trump is a gakky, useless negotiator. As we saw at Singapore.

Kim gave away nothing and got an unprecedented equals level meeting with the POTUS, proposed reductions in the sanctions by China, the promise of ending joint military defence exercises by his two most dangerous enemies, and US presidentlal endorsement of his human rights abuses.

Trump got nothing, and horrified his regional allies and military high command.

 d-usa wrote:
Well, according to the Trump administration and many people in here, they signed a worthless non-binding paper since the POTUS can’t make any deals with anyone that actually matter.

I’m surprised Kim didn’t insist on meeting with our Congress and the real leaders of making deals rather than our figurehead.

Nothing of substance was accomplished at this meeting. Trump and Kim had a face to face conversation in a room. We don’t know the content of that conversation. The USA has incurred no obligations or commitments because of this meeting. No treaty or agreement has been presented to Congress for ratification. At this time Trump has the ability to steer and enact foreign policy through the executive branch power at his disposal during his term as President. If no agreement manifests and gets ratified by Congress then the next administration is free to conduct foreign policy as they see best whether that is a continuation of anything Trump did or a complete repudiation of it or anything in between.
All we know now is that Trump skipped the G7 to meet with Kim, met with Kim and is now describing that meeting with Kim in a manner that at least in his own estimation, makes him look good. We’ll have to wait and see if anything of substance materializes in the upcoming days/weeks.

 Frazzled wrote:

Why?

Because it makes you looks unstable and long time allies you anger have long time memories. Canada might take decades to get less pissed at the US. And, believe it or not, that's actually an ally the US needs to secure it;s northern boarder and make sure the Russian nukes are not on their way. US trade also uses Canada's waterways, and atm they do it free.

And contrary to Trump's lies, the USA has a trade surplus with Canada.