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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
And Seoul would be turned into a recreation of that hive city that the DKoK bombarded for more than 10 years.

Where do you think US air-power would target first? Offensive capability would be removed first.

You are naive as hell if you think that will stop it

 whembly wrote:
Here’s the video that was shown to Kim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUajFAl9vDY

Pretty ballsy... but maybe something that Kim responds to...

I think you might have put in the wrong link?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Here’s the video that was shown to Kim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUajFAl9vDY

Pretty ballsy... but maybe something that Kim responds to...

I think you might have put in the wrong link?

It's definitely the wrong link. Trump wouldn't watch BBC news, it would hurt his fragile ego to have his actions reported accurately.

Whoops,

The result of this meeting is pathetic. Truly pathetic in Trump's part. And even more pathetic will be the amount of support coming from the GOP side. Iran couldn't be counted on to maintain denuclearization with extensive oversight and no evidence they were enriching urainum beyond the agreed amount. But NK can be trusted to denuclearize with no oversight because Trump and Kim have a 'special bond'.

On the upside it's a ready-made argument for day-to-day interactions, and one that I imagine will cut pretty deep.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This agreement does not mean anything to begin with. The exercises is just something Trump threw out there without informing the US military. And really, practicing outside of SK is never going to happen. We're talking about 10.000 US troops versus 200.000 South Koreans with all their equipment that would need to be ferried over every year, and basically sending half the army overseas when you still have an official enemy right outside your border. Its completely unrealistic if it is even politically feasible. The whole point is that NK wants the US to stop practising with SK, they are going to push that harder now that Trump has already handed over the yearly exercise.

BTW, can Trump actually stop the military excersises in South Korea? Isn't there a Congressional decision on having those?

As Vakathi said, not really. The exercises are a natural development out of the Korean War to keep the alliance trained. The manner in which they have been conducted has shifted over time and there are years in which nothing was done. This however breaks a 20 year period of active training. Last time they got cancelled it was because the US achieved some actual progress in talks with NK (although NK reneged on them later),now they got cancelled at a whim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hes commander in chief. The only thing he can't order the armed forces to do without consent is go to war. During a war he can do anything with it.

Which is also why it's silly to keep saying things like. "He didn't even inform the military about the decision" - well - he doesn't have to.

This is such a terrible argument. Just because the president doesn't have to inform or discuss his opinions doesn't mean its a good idea if he just goes out and does things without them knowing. Yeah, technically he could declare war on China on TV tomorrow and not tell the military, but it would be fething stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
And Seoul would be turned into a recreation of that hive city that the DKoK bombarded for more than 10 years.

Where do you think US air-power would target first? Offensive capability would be removed first.

By which time you would already have tens of thousands of dead.

Where do you get the information that he didn't inform the relevant people anyways? I'm sure hes had briefings with his military staff about possible outcomes from this meeting. You know...they can ask questions. Plus - do they even need to know? This is not a pressing matter...

Ok, I have to say, the "can history be changed?" line really made my eye twitch...

 Ustrello wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
And Seoul would be turned into a recreation of that hive city that the DKoK bombarded for more than 10 years.

Where do you think US air-power would target first? Offensive capability would be removed first.

You are naive as hell if you think that will stop it

No - I just know what the US military is capable of. ESP our Navy. SK likely has the most advance anti missle systems on earth. A first strike against NK would result in approx 90% of their offensive capabilities being destroyed within a 30 minute period. Few in SK would die. NK would be rendered impotent in a few days. All they could do is hide in buildings and holes and hold out for guerrilla warfare.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Where do you get the information that he didn't inform the relevant people anyways? I'm sure hes had briefings with his military staff about possible outcomes from this meeting. You know...they can ask questions. Plus - do they even need to know? This is not a pressing matter...

It might not be, but this still is a thing your own government and allies would like you to run by them first.

That the U.S. might halt joint military exercises with South Korea appeared to catch Seoul somewhat off guard, with the South Korean defense ministry saying that it would need to understand the “exact meaning and intent” of Trump's statements Tuesday, according to The Associated Press.

American forces in South Korea, too, said they had not received updated orders, according to the AP, and would continue to work with South Korean partners toward military exercises until they hear differently from the Pentagon or U.S. Indo-Pacific Command.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/12/trump-kim-meeting-press-conference-637544


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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
And Seoul would be turned into a recreation of that hive city that the DKoK bombarded for more than 10 years.

Where do you think US air-power would target first? Offensive capability would be removed first.

You are naive as hell if you think that will stop it

No - I just know what the US military is capable of. ESP our Navy. SK likely has the most advance anti missle systems on earth. A first strike against NK would result in approx 90% of their offensive capabilities being destroyed within a 30 minute period. Few in SK would die. NK would be rendered impotent in a few days. All they could do is hide in buildings and holes and hold out for guerrilla warfare.

You do realize for NK not to notice that massive buildup it would have to be blind as well as deaf? NK is going to start shooting the second it realizes an invasion is coming. Hundreds of thousands of people might die and you unleash one of the largest humanitarian and economic crises seen in this century. And more importantly why? NK has been sitting pretty for decades, why is now, after they developed nukes the time to go for it?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/09/what-is-the-us-militarys-presence-in-south-east-asia

They should just open fire right now I guess.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
And Seoul would be turned into a recreation of that hive city that the DKoK bombarded for more than 10 years.

Where do you think US air-power would target first? Offensive capability would be removed first.

You are naive as hell if you think that will stop it

No - I just know what the US military is capable of. ESP our Navy. SK likely has the most advance anti missle systems on earth. A first strike against NK would result in approx 90% of their offensive capabilities being destroyed within a 30 minute period.

Even if we hold thay as true, 30 minutes under the barrage of potentially as many as thirty thousand big guns is no walk in the park. There is a reason the US has not tried to do this already.

More to the point, looking at every major US conflict of the last 30 years, even with satellites scanning every patch of ground, active airborne surveillance, and laser guided smart bombs, through Iraq and Serbia and Afghanistan and other places, anyone expecting air power to neutralize such capabilities in minutes is going to be sorely mistaken.

More likely is the big guns will run out of ammo in a couple of hours and NK will be unable to resupply them

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The result of this meeting is pathetic. Truly pathetic in Trump's part. And even more pathetic will be the amount of support coming from the GOP side. Iran couldn't be counted on to maintain denuclearization with extensive oversight and no evidence they were enriching urainum beyond the agreed amount. But NK can be trusted to denuclearize with no oversight because Trump and Kim have a 'special bond'.

On the upside it's a ready-made argument for day-to-day interactions, and one that I imagine will cut pretty deep.

Pretty much this. Trump has managed to achieve very little that has not been promised before whilst offering things up that other neighbouring states will also be over the moon about.


I particularly 'like' Trumps' statement when asked about transcripts of what KJU agreed was "I don’t need to verify as I have one of the great memories of all time."

So based on past history I think we can conclude that KJU could have agreed anything because Trump will not be able to recall any of it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/09/what-is-the-us-militarys-presence-in-south-east-asia

They should just open fire right now I guess.

Is this a joke? First of all those are not all combat troops. Second of all, the 7th Fleet is spread out over a vast area, not all hugging NK territorial waters ready to go. The 7th Air Force has about a 100 aircraft in SK. How is that an indication of an impending invasion?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The result of this meeting is pathetic. Truly pathetic in Trump's part. And even more pathetic will be the amount of support coming from the GOP side. Iran couldn't be counted on to maintain denuclearization with extensive oversight and no evidence they were enriching urainum beyond the agreed amount. But NK can be trusted to denuclearize with no oversight because Trump and Kim have a 'special bond'.

On the upside it's a ready-made argument for day-to-day interactions, and one that I imagine will cut pretty deep.

It’s.... a first tiny step in right direction...no?

And yeah, the media critic/supporters are losing their minds as this is “historic”. The agreement is nothing more than a promise at this point, but at least peace is given another chance. I think that folks weary of the adventurism of Iraq/Syria//Afghanistan/etc ought to look at the with skeptical and hopeful eyes.
Otherwise we’d be looking at a real ugly war that we haven’t seen in quite some time.

This thread proves the poll findings that a lot of Republicans have swung in behind Trump to the extent that they will defend anything he does on the basis that "he isn't forbidden by law not to..." or the equivalent, not matter what a foolish or immoral decision it was.

Are there really people who truly think it's a good idea to plan military operations without informing the military about the operational plan?

That said, of course Trump hadn't informed the military of his decision to halt the wargames because he didn't think of it himself until a few seconds before he blurted it out in a ploy to extend the amount of time he has looking presidenty and statesmanny on TV

He also came out with a load of toss spank about what great beaches NK has and how you could build the world's best hotels there.

Sorry! I broke the swear filter again!!

 whembly wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The result of this meeting is pathetic. Truly pathetic in Trump's part. And even more pathetic will be the amount of support coming from the GOP side. Iran couldn't be counted on to maintain denuclearization with extensive oversight and no evidence they were enriching urainum beyond the agreed amount. But NK can be trusted to denuclearize with no oversight because Trump and Kim have a 'special bond'.

On the upside it's a ready-made argument for day-to-day interactions, and one that I imagine will cut pretty deep.

It’s.... a first tiny step in right direction...no?

And yeah, the media critic/supporters are losing their minds as this is “historic”. The agreement is nothing more than a promise at this point, but at least peace is given another chance. I think that folks weary of the adventurism of Iraq/Syria//Afghanistan/etc ought to look at the with skeptical and hopeful eyes.
Otherwise we’d be looking at a real ugly war that we haven’t seen in quite some time.

But its a tiny step on a road that we have gone down multiple times, except now NK's hand is much stronger. We have been through these steps even at the high point of the above mentioned adventurism.

And yes,its is historic for no other reason than a US president meeting dear leader. But any US president could have chosen to do this, the question is, what does it actually add of value beyond giving Kim something to show at home?


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
This thread proves the poll findings that a lot of Republicans have swung in behind Trump to the extent that they will defend anything he does on the basis that "he isn't forbidden by law not to..." or the equivalent, not matter what a foolish or immoral decision it was.

Are there really people who truly think it's a good idea to plan military operations without informing the military about the operational plan?

That said, of course Trump hadn't informed the military of his decision to halt the wargames because he didn't think of it himself until a few seconds before he blurted it out in a ploy to extend the amount of time he has looking presidenty and statesmanny on TV

He also came out with a load of toss spank about what great beaches NK has and how you could build the world's best hotels there.

Sorry! I broke the swear filter again!!

Imagine a Trump hotel in NK though, "Ocean view or concentration camp view?"

 whembly wrote:
It’s.... a first tiny step in right direction...no?

It means nothing if there is no commitment. What has actually been gained. We are in the same position as we were yesterday. Shaking hands doesn't mean anything. You can shake hands whilst ruining friendships between allies as seen at the G7.

but at least peace is given another chance.

There has been 'peace' for 50 years or so. There's been no major conflict since the Korean War. No one is shelling each other daily and so on. All Trump has managed to do is give vindication to a despot and his brutal control of a population.

NK is probably the only place in the world where Trump would get permission to build a hotel.

Well, that's not 100% correct. He probably could get permission in Saudi Arabia, Russia or Israel.

feth us all, what a world we are living in! That the extreme right-wing Republican President of the USA should flip off the G7 to go and buddy-buddy with the hereditary dictator of the last true Communist paradise on Earth!

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/09/what-is-the-us-militarys-presence-in-south-east-asia

They should just open fire right now I guess.

Is this a joke? First of all those are not all combat troops. Second of all, the 7th Fleet is spread out over a vast area, not all hugging NK territorial waters ready to go. The 7th Air Force has about a 100 aircraft in SK. How is that an indication of an impending invasion?

What is you joke is that you don't think the US Navy could sneak forces into a giant area the size of the pacific ocean without NK knowing about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s.... a first tiny step in right direction...no?

It means nothing if there is no commitment. What has actually been gained. We are in the same position as we were yesterday. Shaking hands doesn't mean anything. You can shake hands whilst ruining friendships between allies as seen at the G7.

but at least peace is given another chance.

There has been 'peace' for 50 years or so. There's been no major conflict since the Korean War. No one is shelling each other daily and so on. All Trump has managed to do is give vindication to a despot and his brutal control of a population.

What if Kim comes to the US? Allows NK and SK to move inbtween each other? Allows US industry to move in and turn NK into an economic power house. These are all things that are possible if you get to the point where we can communicate without the fear of nukes being chucked around willy nilly.

BTW - we still don't know a dang thing about what has been agreed upon. You know nothing about trump if you think he'd make a bad deal. His entire ego is about making good deals. He wrote a best selling book - called - the art of the deal.

Reading you guys talk about trump right now almost reminds me of the night he got elected. I wonder what the reaction will be the same when this turns out to be a good deal...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/09/what-is-the-us-militarys-presence-in-south-east-asia

They should just open fire right now I guess.

Is this a joke? First of all those are not all combat troops. Second of all, the 7th Fleet is spread out over a vast area, not all hugging NK territorial waters ready to go. The 7th Air Force has about a 100 aircraft in SK. How is that an indication of an impending invasion?

What is you joke is that you don't think the US Navy could sneak forces into a giant area the size of the pacific ocean without NK knowing about it.

Well they wouldn't have to, because the sea within striking distance isn't the size of the Pacific Ocean. The issue is that you seem to genuinely believe that the US could move in assets and launch a devastating first strike to prevent serious retaliation without NK ever suspecting anything. Moving the forces required for such a strike would just not allow for such secrecy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s.... a first tiny step in right direction...no?

It means nothing if there is no commitment. What has actually been gained. We are in the same position as we were yesterday. Shaking hands doesn't mean anything. You can shake hands whilst ruining friendships between allies as seen at the G7.

but at least peace is given another chance.

There has been 'peace' for 50 years or so. There's been no major conflict since the Korean War. No one is shelling each other daily and so on. All Trump has managed to do is give vindication to a despot and his brutal control of a population.

What if Kim comes to the US? Allows NK and SK to move inbtween each other? Allows US industry to move in and turn NK into an economic power house. These are all things that are possible if you get to the point where we can communicate without the fear of nukes being chucked around willy nilly.

BTW - we still don't know a dang thing about what has been agreed upon. You know nothing about trump if you think he'd make a bad deal. His entire ego is about making good deals. He wrote a best selling book - called - the art of the deal.

Reading you guys talk about trump right now almost reminds me of the night he got elected. I wonder what the reaction will be the same when this turns out to be a good deal...

Really? NK has had the ability to "chuck" nukes for 1 year out of its 73 year existence. Trying to argue that this is what stopped any progress is just facetious. It doesn't matter what the US offers,what matters is what Kim needs for Kim's regime to survive.

Again, nothing has been agreed upon beyond vague promises to get rid of nuclear weapons in exchange for security promises. To pretend anything significant got spoken about and decided upon in 30 minutes is just unrealistic.

And yes, Trump loves making deals so much his entire business history is a how to on how not to make them.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/09/what-is-the-us-militarys-presence-in-south-east-asia

They should just open fire right now I guess.

Is this a joke? First of all those are not all combat troops. Second of all, the 7th Fleet is spread out over a vast area, not all hugging NK territorial waters ready to go. The 7th Air Force has about a 100 aircraft in SK. How is that an indication of an impending invasion?

What is you joke is that you don't think the US Navy could sneak forces into a giant area the size of the pacific ocean without NK knowing about it.

Well they wouldn't have to, because the sea within striking distance isn't the size of the Pacific Ocean. The issue is that you seem to genuinely believe that the US could move in assets and launch a devastating first strike to prevent serious retaliation without NK ever suspecting anything. Moving the forces required for such a strike would just not allow for such secrecy.

What happens every time we do military excersizes there with our navy with SK? It's a giant build up of force that NK has to prepare for every single time we do it. It would be the perfect ruse for the invasion. Which is what this is all about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NK has had nukes for quite a while. Only Recently have they have the ability to launch missles that reach can reach the US.

This has always been about protecting SK and Japan.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 whembly wrote:
It’s.... a first tiny step in right direction...no?

It means nothing if there is no commitment. What has actually been gained. We are in the same position as we were yesterday. Shaking hands doesn't mean anything. You can shake hands whilst ruining friendships between allies as seen at the G7.

but at least peace is given another chance.

There has been 'peace' for 50 years or so. There's been no major conflict since the Korean War. No one is shelling each other daily and so on. All Trump has managed to do is give vindication to a despot and his brutal control of a population.

You can see the conundrum in this situation... no?

I mean the status quo wouldseem to be continuing the same things over and over again.... adopting a Mean Girls tactic by ignoring their existence and hope really, really hard that sanctions would change their despicable ways?

Many believed we’re on brink of war.... seems like Trump rattled Kim a bit and brought him to the table. Once at the table... did you expect Trump to continue his “ rocket man” and “my nuke button is bigger” rhetoric??? This is his weird version of diplomacy...

Now if he tries to give away the candy store without significant concession... I’ll be right there with you in condemning trump. But considering an ugly war may be on hold for the time being... I’m willing to see how this unfolds.

Has the NK congress ratified this letter yet? Can the next Kim just trash it?

 Xenomancers wrote:


Reading you guys talk about trump right now almost reminds me of the night he got elected. I wonder what the reaction will be the same when this turns out to be a good deal...

As I just told my co-worker:

If this turns into the real deal, I will take back my hostile attitude towards it, apologize if I need to. He may even get my vote in 2020. Until then, this is just him running his mouth with no idea what hes doing. For having the "best memory", he also seems to have the issue of "his recollection keeps changing". Time shall see, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

EDIT: Spelling.

 d-usa wrote:
Has the NK congress ratified this letter yet? Can the next Kim just trash it?

Didn't Kim kill off all of his successors?

 d-usa wrote:
Has the NK congress ratified this letter yet? Can the next Kim just trash it?

Do you have a point?

Oh wait: the Nith Circuit needs to approve it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/09/what-is-the-us-militarys-presence-in-south-east-asia

They should just open fire right now I guess.

Is this a joke? First of all those are not all combat troops. Second of all, the 7th Fleet is spread out over a vast area, not all hugging NK territorial waters ready to go. The 7th Air Force has about a 100 aircraft in SK. How is that an indication of an impending invasion?

What is you joke is that you don't think the US Navy could sneak forces into a giant area the size of the pacific ocean without NK knowing about it.

Well they wouldn't have to, because the sea within striking distance isn't the size of the Pacific Ocean. The issue is that you seem to genuinely believe that the US could move in assets and launch a devastating first strike to prevent serious retaliation without NK ever suspecting anything. Moving the forces required for such a strike would just not allow for such secrecy.

What happens every time we do military excersizes there with our navy with SK? It's a giant build up of force that NK has to prepare for every single time we do it. It would be the perfect ruse for the invasion. Which is what this is all about.

NK has had nukes for quite a while. Only Recently have they have the ability to launch missles that reach can reach the US.

This has always been about protecting SK and Japan.

You do realize that one of the largest exercises in years in SK involved three aircraft carriers and around a 100 or so US AF planes? That's a grand total of around 300 aircraft. Its far from a giant buildup. The invasion of Iraq say 150.000 Us troops move into the region plus allies, how does 10.000 represent anywhere near a giant buildup? No exercise has ever come close to the huge buildup required to deliver a knockout punch in days. You don't think NK will notice when one year 10 times the normal amount of US troops suddenly come over to exercise? Does NK not have a functioning intelligence agency?

NK has not had nukes for quite a while, what NK had was a nuclear device they were unable to miniaturize to a sufficient extent or develop a reliable delivery system until last year. Again, they did not have the ability to "chuck" nukes around and even now we're talking about perhaps one or two, which sure as hell are going to be launched if the US is going to attempt an invasion. Again, why invade NK when it is far too late now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

The detonated a small Nuke in 2006. This is essentially the point at which you can declare NK a nuclear power. 3 years later the bomb got 3 times stronger. It doesn't really matter though - a 1 kt explosion would decimate a city.

Delivering a bomb to a neighboring country is not hard - you can actaully load it into a cannon and fire it that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_atomic_cannon I'm sure NK could build this right?

Observe the magic of having a few months pass by and changing a few letters in a countries name

Iran:

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Well, he pulled out of the deal. I guess we all know what America's word is worth now, eh?

Sure... go with that.

If you wanted it enshrined, it needed to be ratified as a treaty.

I think the countries would know that...

So, do you believe there is no diplomatic solution?

Sure... sanctions.

North Korea:

 whembly wrote:

I mean the status quo wouldseem to be continuing the same things over and over again.... adopting a Mean Girls tactic by ignoring their existence and hope really, really hard that sanctions would change their despicable ways?

Many believed we’re on brink of war.... seems like Trump rattled Kim a bit and brought him to the table. Once at the table... did you expect Trump to continue his “ rocket man” and “my nuke button is bigger” rhetoric??? This is his weird version of diplomacy...

Now if he tries to give away the candy store without significant concession... I’ll be right there with you in condemning trump. But considering an ugly war may be on hold for the time being... I’m willing to see how this unfolds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

The detonated a small Nuke in 2006. This is essentially the point at which you can declare NK a nuclear power. 3 years later the bomb got 3 times stronger. It doesn't really matter though - a 1 kt explosion would decimate a city.

Delivering a bomb to a neighboring country is not hard - you can actaully load it into a cannon and fire it that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_atomic_cannon I'm sure NK could build this right?

Its was nuclear power with no delivery mechanism until last year. Its very useful if all your enemies willingly stand around it when you make it go off.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You know nothing about trump if you think he'd make a bad deal. His entire ego is about making good deals. He wrote a best selling book - called - the art of the deal.

But he's a pretty bad businessman, when you get down to it. He's got several failed projects behind him, hotels, casinos, even an airline. Some were saved by financiers on the condition Trump provides only his name and stays out of daily management.

I'll give him kudos on his fearless attitude though, there's nothing he thinks he can't do.