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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's beyond satire. It's like the fall of the Roman Empire.

As a barbarian at the gates, I can only hope.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Without a shadow of a doubt, this has to be one of the most wretched foreign policy blunders in American history.

It's weapons grade bullgak perpetrated by a man child who bases foreign policy on doing the polar opposite of his predecessor.

He's not doing it to spite Obama... he has ALWAYS been against it.

...and the freaking majority of the GOP and handful of Democrats opposed it! (Schumer!!).

Feth me, they must be having a right old laugh in Israel and Saudi Arabia, because once again the American dog is getting wagged by the Israeli and Saudi tail.

?? Israel is our closest allies in this region so I'm surprised that you're surprised about this.

For SA, yeah that's interesting and it seems the US and SA are getting "closer". King Salmon is slowly moderating his kingdom... but, okay you don't like them. Don't lose sight that SA and Israel are honest-to-god adversaries towards Iran.

What I wouldn't give for a George Marshall or a Cordell Hull, a statesman who knew what they were doing. Hell, I'd settle for Nixon right now. At least he knew what he wanted and had the skill to get it...

Domestically, Trump is a mess.

Foreign policy wise? Let's see...
-withdrew from Paris Accord...
-withdrew from TPP...
-decimated ISIS...
-Syrian response...
-detente with North Korea (so far)
-and now withdrawing from Iran Nuke Accord

Once again I'll remind American dakka members that I sat through the Senate and Congress hearings on the Iran deal, and the GOP had FETHING nothing. No alternative. All they did was jump up and down, throw the toys from the pram and make themseves look like fething idiots.

Sure they did.

Maintain sanctions.

But, hey... European and Russian companies want access to Iranian markets.

The Moderates in Iran were gaining some traction, but the hardliners will push them aside.

Citation please? Because from where I stood... Obama chose not to take advantage of the Green Revolution... Iran still exported terror resources.

North Korea will look at this and wonder why bother dealing with a nation that breaks its word, and the European allies will not appreciate the USA laying down the law to them on economic sanctions...

NO.

The USA did *NOT* break its word.

This is not a ratified treaty.

And the idea that the USA will negotiate a new deal is pie in the sky nonsense that should be laughed out of town by anybody with more than two brain cells too rub together...

We'll see bruv.

If the American people had any sense, pride, or dignity left in them, then these buffoons should be chased out of Washington with a horsewhip...

I still want to do that ever day... EVERY DAY!



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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

It's beyond satire. It's like the fall of the Roman Empire.

As a barbarian at the gates, I can only hope.

Heh... nice touch!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So...the big question now is...what does this actually do and mean?

As far as Iran is concerned, theyre going to take another big financial hit, but as long as the agreement remains in place with the other partners, they can bypass US sanctions and carry on as they were, and there is no compelling reason for them to reenengage. The deal worked because many powers were acting in unison and a lot of work went into that.

As far as the US is concerned...I don't see a game plan, a follow up, a step 2, a plan B, short of violence.

Sanctions snap back as pre-Obama agreement.

These sanctions also pushes other countries for doing busy with Iran (unless the US waives it).


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 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Read the posts of the person defending this and you'll understand precisely how these things happen.

...which was telegraph WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY in advanced with the nomination of Pompeo and Bolton.

So nothing Trump says or does actually means that the US is doing anything?

Pretending that the elected leader of the US does not speak for the US is pretty silly. It’s right up there with “he’s not my president” level nonsense.

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Without a shadow of a doubt, this has to be one of the most wretched foreign policy blunders in American history.

It's weapons grade bullgak perpetrated by a man child who bases foreign policy on doing the polar opposite of his predecessor.

He's not doing it to spite Obama... he has ALWAYS been against it.

...and the freaking majority of the GOP and handful of Democrats opposed it! (Schumer!!).

Feth me, they must be having a right old laugh in Israel and Saudi Arabia, because once again the American dog is getting wagged by the Israeli and Saudi tail.

?? Israel is our closest allies in this region so I'm surprised that you're surprised about this.

For SA, yeah that's interesting and it seems the US and SA are getting "closer". King Salmon is slowly moderating his kingdom... but, okay you don't like them. Don't lose sight that SA and Israel are honest-to-god adversaries towards Iran.

What I wouldn't give for a George Marshall or a Cordell Hull, a statesman who knew what they were doing. Hell, I'd settle for Nixon right now. At least he knew what he wanted and had the skill to get it...

Domestically, Trump is a mess.

Foreign policy wise? Let's see...
-withdrew from Paris Accord...
-withdrew from TPP...
-decimated ISIS...
-Syrian response...
-detente with North Korea (so far)
-and now withdrawing from Iran Nuke Accord

1) I know you hate the earth and plug your ears and push false narratives on climate change but you are really just punishing your children and grandchildren (potential) with this obtuse stance

2) Not knowledgeable enough to comment on the TPP

3) Using plans from Obama who did a majority of the leg work in destroying ISIS, the only thing Trump did was start to kill more civilians and not put out the numbers

4) what response? basically blowing up some empty airfields and "chemical weapon sites" which most likely had been emptied since he gave an advanced warning

5) That was more of China's doing and you seem to forget that past two or three times something like this has happened

6) More nuclear weapons in an already destabilized region, oh boy

 d-usa wrote:
So nothing Trump says or does actually means that the US is doing anything?

Pretending that the elected leader of the US does not speak for the US is pretty silly. It’s right up there with “he’s not my president” level nonsense.

Leaving an agreement from previous administration is not breaking the countries' word.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So nothing Trump says or does actually means that the US is doing anything?

Pretending that the elected leader of the US does not speak for the US is pretty silly. It’s right up there with “he’s not my president” level nonsense.

Leaving an agreement from previous administration is not breaking the countries' word.

Lol

 Ustrello wrote:

1) I know you hate the earth and plug your ears and push false narratives on climate change but you are really just punishing your children and grandchildren (potential) with this obtuse stance

So you say.

2) Not knowledgeable enough to comment on the TPP

IT was "okayish"... but, definitely needed refinement. It's on Trump team to make it better, so... withhold your verdict.

3) Using plans from Obama who did a majority of the leg work in destroying ISIS, the only thing Trump did was start to kill more civilians and not put out the numbers

Okay... and Trump's only enjoying the current economic success because of Obama's policies.

4) what response? basically blowing up some empty airfields and "chemical weapon sites" which most likely had been emptied since he gave an advanced warning

Destroyed aircrafts (hard to replace) and runways (merely delays them shortterm).

5) That was more of China's doing and you seem to forget that past two or three times something like this has happened

The South Korean PM would disagree with you there.

6) More nuclear weapons in an already destabilized region, oh boy

...which this Iran Accord really didn't do much to "stabilize" the region.

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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So nothing Trump says or does actually means that the US is doing anything?

Pretending that the elected leader of the US does not speak for the US is pretty silly. It’s right up there with “he’s not my president” level nonsense.

Leaving an agreement from previous administration is not breaking the countries' word.

Lol

Why is it imperative for a current POTUS to abide by the previous administration's "hand shake" agreement?

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

1) I know you hate the earth and plug your ears and push false narratives on climate change but you are really just punishing your children and grandchildren (potential) with this obtuse stance

So you say.

2) Not knowledgeable enough to comment on the TPP

IT was "okayish"... but, definitely needed refinement. It's on Trump team to make it better, so... withhold your verdict.

3) Using plans from Obama who did a majority of the leg work in destroying ISIS, the only thing Trump did was start to kill more civilians and not put out the numbers

Okay... and Trump's only enjoying the current economic success because of Obama's policies.

4) what response? basically blowing up some empty airfields and "chemical weapon sites" which most likely had been emptied since he gave an advanced warning

Destroyed aircrafts (hard to replace) and runways (merely delays them shortterm).

5) That was more of China's doing and you seem to forget that past two or three times something like this has happened

6) More nuclear weapons in an already destabilized region, oh boy

Maybe I will try it this way, you are obviously a pious man. Do you think God would really people who are trashing the gift that he has given humanity? Do you think he would not judge them the same as other people who have squandered his gifts?

We have also noticed a downturn in the economy or did you forget the DOW Jones dropped almost 2 thousand points since trump has taken office and is in general on a downward trend compared to the past 5 years?

Because the President of the United States represents the United States and is the word of the United States.

It's kind of like parenting. You can let your kid do whatever the hell they want and play the "I didn't tell him that he couldn't do that, you told him he couldn't do that" game of parent against parent. Or you can realize that when either mom or dad speak, they both speak as "the parent" and shooting your credibility with your kids in the foot.

President Obama spoke as the US. President Trump speaks as the US.

 Ustrello wrote:



Maybe I will try it this way, you are obviously a pious man. Do you think God would really people who are trashing the gift that he has given humanity? Do you think he would not judge them the same as other people who have squandered his gifts?

Pious man? Moi? o.O

No one is advocating to trash the environment.

We have also noticed a downturn in the economy or did you forget the DOW Jones dropped almost 2 thousand points since trump has taken office and is in general on a downward trend compared to the past 5 years?

By most metrics, the economy is doing better now than the last 5 years. Unless you believe there's a reckoning due to GOP/Trump's policy... which, hasn't manifested yet.


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 d-usa wrote:
Because the President of the United States represents the United States and is the word of the United States.

It's kind of like parenting. You can let your kid do whatever the hell they want and play the "I didn't tell him that he couldn't do that, you told him he couldn't do that" game of parent against parent. Or you can realize that when either mom or dad speak, they both speak as "the parent" and shooting your credibility with your kids in the foot.

President Obama spoke as the US. President Trump speaks as the US.

But, not in a vacuum d...

o.O

Presidents are still beholden by the Treaty functionary if the desire to enshrine an agreement as the "law of the land". Otherwise, the agreement might as well be written in no.2 pencil that can be erased by the following administration.

Trump campaigned against this about as much as "da wall". So... in a way, American has spoken.

The high point of the Dow Jones was roughly Jan 26th 20172018. Since then it's been on a downward trend generally.

And by withdrawing from the Paris accords you kinda are advocating for trashing the environment.

Yes, America has spoken and has shown that there is no reason to negotiate with a POTUS.

Nobody disagrees that any POTUS can simply choose to ignore whatever agreement another POTUS has made. Hell, that's been common knowledge in internal US affairs since the beginning of time.

But, until this last decade, the different US branches and different US Presidents have put up a unified front to the outside world. We have done a 180 now, and there is no reason for anyone to negotiate with our current or future POTUS.

It's like a divorced couple that refused to co-parent. and just does everything to spite the other parent. Neither has to agree with the other parent, one can have a 9pm bedtime and the other can have a 10pm bedtime just to spite the other one. One can say the kid can play Xbox, and the other one can forbit it just to spite the other one. Both are perfectly within their rights, but as an end result both parents render themselves ineffective by playing stupid games.

Obama spoke for the US, now Trump speaks for the US. And yes, the US just contradicted itself and lost credibility and bargaining power.


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 Wolfblade wrote:
The high point of the Dow Jones was roughly Jan 25th 2017. Since then it's been on a downward trend generally.

And by withdrawing from the Paris accords you kinda are advocating for trashing the environment.

January 25th, 2018.

It's been a pretty gakky year by DOW Jones standard though, down ~10% over the past 3.5 months.

 d-usa wrote:
Yes, America has spoken and has shown that there is no reason to negotiate with a POTUS.

Nobody disagrees that any POTUS can simply choose to ignore whatever agreement another POTUS has made. Hell, that's been common knowledge in internal US affairs since the beginning of time.

But, until this last decade, the different US branches and different US Presidents have put up a unified front to the outside world. We have done a 180 now, and there is no reason for anyone to negotiate with our current or future POTUS.

It's like a divorced couple that refused to co-parent. and just does everything to spite the other parent. Neither has to agree with the other parent, one can have a 9pm bedtime and the other can have a 10pm bedtime just to spite the other one. One can say the kid can play Xbox, and the other one can forbit it just to spite the other one. Both are perfectly within their rights, but as an end result both parents render themselves ineffective by playing stupid games.

Obama spoke for the US, now Trump speaks for the US. And yes, the US just contradicted itself and lost credibility and bargaining power.


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 Wolfblade wrote:
The high point of the Dow Jones was roughly Jan 25th 2017. Since then it's been on a downward trend generally.

And by withdrawing from the Paris accords you kinda are advocating for trashing the environment.

January 25th, 2018.

It's been a pretty gakky year by DOW Jones standard though, down ~10% over the past 3.5 months.

Overall my accounts have a performance of -4 percent compared to 2016 of 9 percent growth and 2017 20 percent growth (the two growth years being Obama's and the loss Trumps) and my stocks and bonds are spread out over a diverse area.

 d-usa wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
The high point of the Dow Jones was roughly Jan 25th 2017. Since then it's been on a downward trend generally.

And by withdrawing from the Paris accords you kinda are advocating for trashing the environment.

January 25th, 2018.

It's been a pretty gakky year by DOW Jones standard though, down ~10% over the past 3.5 months.

Whoops, my bad, hit the wrong key, fixed now.

My returns (government plans):

https://www.tsp.gov/InvestmentFunds/FundPerformance/returnSummary.html

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:



Maybe I will try it this way, you are obviously a pious man. Do you think God would really people who are trashing the gift that he has given humanity? Do you think he would not judge them the same as other people who have squandered his gifts?

Pious man? Moi? o.O

No one is advocating to trash the environment.

Except for Scott Pruitt...

I mean, Scott Pruitt's basically a Captain Planet villain without the subtlety.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The big thing I see is a dramatic undermining of US credibility abroad. Our diplomatic deals will not be seen with nearly the same legitimacy. It also pretty much kills Trump's chances of reaching diplomatic solutions to major issues during his Presidency. I'd bet this will affect the Korea talks.

Yep. Trump is cheering himself on as he walks in to talks with NK, while at the same time showing the US will walk away from another deal based on nothing but a political whim.

NK isn't stupid. There is now no chance NK will commit to anything up front, in exchange for ongoing benefits. Which means an idea built around dismantling nuke and ICBM capabilities now, in exchange for on-going access to Chinese fuel is a non-starter. And I can't think of NK deal that isn't built around that basic structure.

The stupidity of Trump's decision on Iran is really quite hard to fully appreciate.


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 whembly wrote:
This is *why* the treaty route should've been used.

And of course you were arguing so strongly for Republicans to get on board with ratifying such a treaty.

The Iran deal took the form it did not because Obama just couldn't be bothered writing it all out in a formal treaty for ratification by congress. It took that form it did because there was no way a Republican congress was ever going to sign off anything Obama put up.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:



Maybe I will try it this way, you are obviously a pious man. Do you think God would really people who are trashing the gift that he has given humanity? Do you think he would not judge them the same as other people who have squandered his gifts?

Pious man? Moi? o.O

No one is advocating to trash the environment.

Except for Scott Pruitt...

Oh... by all means please demonstrate that Pruitt is trashing the environment...

 whembly wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:



Maybe I will try it this way, you are obviously a pious man. Do you think God would really people who are trashing the gift that he has given humanity? Do you think he would not judge them the same as other people who have squandered his gifts?

Pious man? Moi? o.O

No one is advocating to trash the environment.

Except for Scott Pruitt...

Oh... by all means please demonstrate that Pruitt is trashing the environment...

Wait seriously? Holy gak

 sebster wrote:

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 whembly wrote:
This is *why* the treaty route should've been used.

And of course you were arguing so strongly for Republicans to get on board with ratifying such a treaty.

Nope. Me, and the majority of congressional critters opposed it.

The Iran deal took the form it did not because Obama just couldn't be bothered writing it all out in a formal treaty for ratification by congress. It took that form it did because there was no way a Republican congress was ever going to sign off anything Obama put up.

Like I said with previous posters... if there were no way a Republican congress was ever going to sign off anything Obama puts up... then, maybe the agreement isn't all that.

 whembly wrote:
With the deal... nothing.

Under the Iran deal, the IAEA has the right put in Iran as many inspectors as it deems necessary, with freedom to investigate all nuclear facilities, and any possible supply chain point that might be importing or moving any equipment that could be used to develop prohibited weapons. If Iran prevents any IAEA agent, or Iran is found to be in breach of its agreement, then the full sanction regime can be restored immediately.

So your claim is not only false, it utter delusion.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So nothing Trump says or does actually means that the US is doing anything?

Pretending that the elected leader of the US does not speak for the US is pretty silly. It’s right up there with “he’s not my president” level nonsense.

Leaving an agreement from previous administration is not breaking the countries' word.

I know you are a red stooge here to defend your team. But this doesn't even make sense. Leaving an AGREEMENT the country made is not going back on its word? Did you actually read what you wrote?

Whembly, Mitch McConnell blocked every attempt to appoint or hold hearings for new judges. Are they "not all that"? That's blatant partisanship of one side trying to screw the other.

 sebster wrote:

 whembly wrote:
With the deal... nothing.

Under the Iran deal, the IAEA has the right put in Iran as many inspectors as it deems necessary, with freedom to investigate all nuclear facilities, and any possible supply chain point that might be importing or moving any equipment that could be used to develop prohibited weapons. If Iran prevents any IAEA agent, or Iran is found to be in breach of its agreement, then the full sanction regime can be restored immediately.

So your claim is not only false, it utter delusion.

Not true.
Iran says military sites are off-limits for nuclear inspections despite U.S. pressure

The agreement allowed Iran to dictate the terms of IAEA access, which included asking permission for inspections, the ability to deny access to military sites and the ability to take nearly a month’s time to clean up at sites.

They have a month to clean up a uranium enrichment program?

You don't know how nuclear power works, do you?

 whembly wrote:
Intercontinential missiles were not included...

They could still refine uranium that could be used for atomic weapons...

The deal has very little teeth and didn't little, if at all, to restrain their pursuits.

That's the kind of half-truth crap you keep reading, and keep believing no matter how times people explain to you it's pure bunk.

It is true that Iran could still have a stockpile of uranium. But that stockpile was now limited to 300kg, less than 1/50 of its total before the deal was struck. It was enough to allow Iran to continue to keep a toe in the nuclear industry, it was a fraction of what was needed to maintain a weapons capability. At the same time Iran's centrifuges were cut by 80%, making a quick return to weapons capability impossible.

But you got spoon fed 'can still refine uranium' and bought in to that while remaining completely ignorant of the greater context. Once again you just play along, dancing to the tune of people who tell you lies.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So nothing Trump says or does actually means that the US is doing anything?

Pretending that the elected leader of the US does not speak for the US is pretty silly. It’s right up there with “he’s not my president” level nonsense.

Leaving an agreement from previous administration is not breaking the countries' word.

I know you are a red stooge here to defend your team. But this doesn't even make sense. Leaving an AGREEMENT the country made is not going back on its word? Did you actually read what you wrote?

I did.

The Iran deal did not represent America’s word, it represented Obama’s word. Our Constitution and our laws are no secret.

EVERYONE...our allies and Iran would know that a president has no power unilaterally bind the US to an international agreement. We give our word when we enact a treaty or pass some legislative laws to lock in those commitments.

...like the Paris Accord...

and so forth.

Again, CNN is reporting a Russian related fund gave Cohen $500k, some of which was used to pay off Daniels.

 whembly wrote:
It's NOT an enforcible treaty.

Please understand... that is my point.

You need to understand your point is absolute junk. Pure fiction. Trash.

The Iran deal states that on a finding by the IAEA that Iran was found with a prohibited program or capability, or was failing to provide the IAEA with the required access, the previous sanctions regime could be immediately re-instated. That is enforcement, it is a sword hanging over Iran, that if they ever breach the treaty they would find themselves back in economic strangulation they suffered from roughly 2005 to 2015.

So stop posting utter nonsense.