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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Happened at the same time as the most recent school shooting. Only one of these two things gets the media dick hard.

Alternatively, an "assassination attempt" that occurred when Trump was nowhere near the location and was clearly an attempted suicide by cop gets no coverage because it isn't newsworthy. No need to resort to complaining about media coverage of school shootings to explain it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Happened at the same time as the most recent school shooting. Only one of these two things gets the media dick hard.

Alternatively, an "assassination attempt" that occurred when Trump was nowhere near the location and was clearly an attempted suicide by cop gets no coverage because it isn't newsworthy. No need to resort to complaining about media coverage of school shootings to explain it.

You would not believe the number of attempted hits that have come nowhere near a president. Some people just assume because a name is on a building that they're there.

BaronIveagh wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

You’d think that would have gotten more coverage.

Happened at the same time as the most recent school shooting. Only one of these two things gets the media dick hard.

BaronIveagh wrote:You would not believe the number of attempted hits that have come nowhere near a president. Some people just assume because a name is on a building that they're there.

Sounds like you're agreeing it wasn't really newsworthy, which is a pretty big swing from literally 2 posts ago

Anyway in a most inconvenient turn of events, that incident actually did get quite a bit of coverage.

 Ouze wrote:

Sounds like you're agreeing it wasn't really newsworthy, which is a pretty big swing from literally 2 posts ago

Unless they get him, it really isn't. I mean, even a wounding would be sort of 'meh'.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm for letting him have his whole term. One is on principle, if a POTUS is elected they deserve to get the whole four years, or put another way the nation deserves to endure the whole four years

I think it would be best for Trump to go the whole term, barring communist revolution lmao, for the very simple reason that he's so much of a fuckup that he won't leave any room for the competent evil people with him to breathe. If he didn't essentially impose constant crisis mode they would be able to go much further. The damage that Trump does is less than the damage that Pence would do.

Not so long ago they had Bush and now with Trump some people long for those times as if he did so much better. No matter how far it swings to the left, after Trump is done with the USA it will swing back again after people have pushed this chapter from their memories. I don't know where on the "competent <-> feth up" scale that one will reside but it feels like the pants on head crazy part of the right wing is here to stay for a while and can't be dislodged that easily.

 Ouze wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
I have family from Germany that was around when Auschwitz 1.0 was in operation. And right up until the death camps were captured by allied soldiers and put in the public eye, they were considered, by the wider population of Germany, exactly that sort of crazy idea that no one took seriously.

I think this is historical revisionism. The persecution of the Jews in Germany was enshrined in public laws and a lot of the stuff that happened was reported. This was known to the world in 1942, so I don't buy that the people who lived 10 miles from the camps didn't know they existed.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Yes, rumors were all over the place. Yes, soldiers came back with stories of rounding Jews up, and even summary executions. And yes, a hideous amount of anti-Semetism was written into German law at the time. But a camp where they have turned murder into an industrial process? Pull the other one, it's got bells on...

Out here in New Mexico we've got secret military installations all over, not least of which is Area 51. Nobody knows exactly what's going on there, not even people whose lands border on the property those installations are on. And that's with the U.S security apparatus keeping the curious away; I can only imagine anyone who got too close to one of the Nazi death camps didn't come home to tell the tale.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
I have family from Germany that was around when Auschwitz 1.0 was in operation. And right up until the death camps were captured by allied soldiers and put in the public eye, they were considered, by the wider population of Germany, exactly that sort of crazy idea that no one took seriously.

I think this is historical revisionism. The persecution of the Jews in Germany was enshrined in public laws and a lot of the stuff that happened was reported. This was known to the world in 1942, so I don't buy that the people who lived 10 miles from the camps didn't know they existed.

J
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Yes, rumors were all over the place. Yes, soldiers came back with stories of rounding Jews up, and even summary executions. And yes, a hideous amount of anti-Semetism was written into German law at the time. But a camp where they have turned murder into an industrial process? Pull the other one, it's got bells on...

Out here in New Mexico we've got secret military installations all over, not least of which is Area 51. Nobody knows exactly what's going on there, not even people whose lands border on the property those installations are on. And that's with the U.S security apparatus keeping the curious away; I can only imagine anyone who got too close to one of the Nazi death camps didn't come home to tell the tale.

Another thing that gets missed in the evolution of the concentration camps is that they started with revolving doors. It's not a perfect example, but think of them as a jail for non criminal crimes. Some folks did their time and were released in the early days of the concentration camps in Germany. Another factor was outside of Germany when Jews were being rounded up it was frequently done by locals with little German oversight. Something else lost in history is the number of other non desirables rounded up. Statistically, if you were a Jew in a concentration camp and you looked to your left and right one of those people was not a Jew.

A minor quibble, Jews weren't sent to Concentration Camps under the Final Solution but Extermination Camps, there was a difference even if these days Concentration Camp tends to be used as a catch-all.

But a camp where they have turned murder into an industrial process? Pull the other one, it's got bells on...

It was no accident that the Extermination Camps were all situated outside of Germany.

Trump did a good deed the other day when he pardoned Jack Johnson the boxer.

His 'crime' was to have a relationship with a white woman, and with Johnson being African-American, that kind of thing was frowned upon in those days with Jim Crow and all that.

His life story is quite interesting and he ended up being a freemason in Scotland of all places...

 Vulcan wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
I have family from Germany that was around when Auschwitz 1.0 was in operation. And right up until the death camps were captured by allied soldiers and put in the public eye, they were considered, by the wider population of Germany, exactly that sort of crazy idea that no one took seriously.

I think this is historical revisionism. The persecution of the Jews in Germany was enshrined in public laws and a lot of the stuff that happened was reported. This was known to the world in 1942, so I don't buy that the people who lived 10 miles from the camps didn't know they existed.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Yes, rumors were all over the place. Yes, soldiers came back with stories of rounding Jews up, and even summary executions. And yes, a hideous amount of anti-Semetism was written into German law at the time. But a camp where they have turned murder into an industrial process? Pull the other one, it's got bells on...

Out here in New Mexico we've got secret military installations all over, not least of which is Area 51. Nobody knows exactly what's going on there, not even people whose lands border on the property those installations are on. And that's with the U.S security apparatus keeping the curious away; I can only imagine anyone who got too close to one of the Nazi death camps didn't come home to tell the tale.

Actually this is wrong too. Nazi Germany prosecuted Germans for spreading 'rumors' that Jews were being gassed in 43 and 44. SD reports from the time claim that for at least parts of Eastern Germany the name of Auschwitz was known. Of course they didn't know exactly what was going on, but the murder of Jews on a vast scale wasn't exactly a secret even in Germany itself.

And as pointed out above, the death camps were not in Germany itself. Germans lived relaticely close to concentration camps in Germany and even benefitted from slave labor. The idea that something like this can be kept utterly secret in the US is just a fantasy. There are too many people involved in these sort of things.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
I have family from Germany that was around when Auschwitz 1.0 was in operation. And right up until the death camps were captured by allied soldiers and put in the public eye, they were considered, by the wider population of Germany, exactly that sort of crazy idea that no one took seriously.

I think this is historical revisionism. The persecution of the Jews in Germany was enshrined in public laws and a lot of the stuff that happened was reported. This was known to the world in 1942, so I don't buy that the people who lived 10 miles from the camps didn't know they existed.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Yes, rumors were all over the place. Yes, soldiers came back with stories of rounding Jews up, and even summary executions. And yes, a hideous amount of anti-Semetism was written into German law at the time. But a camp where they have turned murder into an industrial process? Pull the other one, it's got bells on...

Out here in New Mexico we've got secret military installations all over, not least of which is Area 51. Nobody knows exactly what's going on there, not even people whose lands border on the property those installations are on. And that's with the U.S security apparatus keeping the curious away; I can only imagine anyone who got too close to one of the Nazi death camps didn't come home to tell the tale.

Actually this is wrong too. Nazi Germany prosecuted Germans for spreading 'rumors' that Jews were being gassed in 43 and 44. SD reports from the time claim that for at least parts of Eastern Germany the name of Auschwitz was known. Of course they didn't know exactly what was going on, but the murder of Jews on a vast scale wasn't exactly a secret even in Germany itself.

And as pointed out above, the death camps were not in Germany itself. Germans lived relaticely close to concentration camps in Germany and even benefitted from slave labor. The idea that something like this can be kept utterly secret in the US is just a fantasy. There are too many people involved in these sort of things.

Auschwitz or Auschwitz II-Birkenau? Because Auschwitz was widely known, it was used for propaganda purposes, showing off the wonderful care the camp inhabitants had including sports facilities, medical care, swimming pool etc.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Auschwitz or Auschwitz II-Birkenau? Because Auschwitz was widely known, it was used for propaganda purposes, showing off the wonderful care the camp inhabitants had including sports facilities, medical care, swimming pool etc.

Sorry, yes Auschwitz-Birkenau. The SD was monitoring what people knew and heard about what was going on. People in the Eastern part of Germany knew relatively more than those in the West based on those documents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well the NK story still continues. Kim seems to keep hammering on the meeting with Trump, Kim is certainly making himself look better in comparison.

An excellent read about what was known during that time:

https://books.google.com/books/about/What_We_Knew.html?id=UOCxQgAACAAJ&hl=en

Lots of interviewed with many groups and some original research as well. It was a hard read, but I recommend it every time the topic comes up.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And as pointed out above, the death camps were not in Germany itself. Germans lived relaticely close to concentration camps in Germany and even benefitted from slave labor. The idea that something like this can be kept utterly secret in the US is just a fantasy. There are too many people involved in these sort of things.

If you think that, I refer you to the testimony of the gas chamber door delivery and installation team. They ordered the doors from a company, who sent out two guys and a truck to install what would become the gas chamber doors. On arriving at the scene the only people these men saw were armed guards. Armed guards on the roofs, armed guards on the ground, armed guards inspecting their papers. They went to the directed building, they unloaded, and, as they installed them, asked the commander why they needed these doors. The commander replied it was for experiments with pressure. To which the men suggested that they had another model that was actually better for what they claimed to be doing at the same cost, and they could go get those doors instead. The commander replied that no, we'll go with these, and would not be deterred by the door deliverymen that they had a better one. So the men installed the doors, and drove away, feeling something was distinctly wrong, but never seeing a single inmate.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And as pointed out above, the death camps were not in Germany itself. Germans lived relaticely close to concentration camps in Germany and even benefitted from slave labor. The idea that something like this can be kept utterly secret in the US is just a fantasy. There are too many people involved in these sort of things.

If you think that, I refer you to the testimony of the gas chamber door delivery and installation team. They ordered the doors from a company, who sent out two guys and a truck to install what would become the gas chamber doors. On arriving at the scene the only people these men saw were armed guards. Armed guards on the roofs, armed guards on the ground, armed guards inspecting their papers. They went to the directed building, they unloaded, and, as they installed them, asked the commander why they needed these doors. The commander replied it was for experiments with pressure. To which the men suggested that they had another model that was actually better for what they claimed to be doing at the same cost, and they could go get those doors instead. The commander replied that no, we'll go with these, and would not be deterred by the door deliverymen that they had a better one. So the men installed the doors, and drove away, feeling something was distinctly wrong, but never seeing a single inmate.

Its not what I think, its about what is historically documented. Sure, some might not have any idea what was going on, but a lot of it was "out of sight, out of mind". The documents exist showing that Nazi Germany had to supress rumors about them gassing Jews.

As for the testimony above, without more context its hard to say why they saw no inmates, such as what the year was or which camp etc. But yes, some people might really not have noticed, but that gets harder and harder once the war progresses and it becomes much more visible.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The documents exist showing that Nazi Germany had to supress rumors about them gassing Jews.

I can show you documents proving they had to suppress rumors about the actions of the einsatzgruppen as well, but I highly doubt that anyone would have actually believed half the gak that men like Oskar Dirlewanger, a man deemed cruel and inhuman in his treatment of Jews by the SS, actually did. To the degree that the army Chaplains of the of the German army filed a protest due to the effect they were having on moral when they involved regular soldiers in their operations.

It's one thing to hear a rumor, it's another to actually believe it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The documents exist showing that Nazi Germany had to supress rumors about them gassing Jews.

I can show you documents proving they had to suppress rumors about the actions of the einsatzgruppen as well, but I highly doubt that anyone would have actually believed half the gak that men like Oskar Dirlewanger, a man deemed cruel and inhuman in his treatment of Jews by the SS, actually did. To the degree that the army Chaplains of the of the German army filed a protest due to the effect they were having on moral when they involved regular soldiers in their operations.

It's one thing to hear a rumor, it's another to actually believe it.

True, but there had been plenty of horrible things directly witnessed even if the details were rumors. Germans after the war put quite some effort into obfuscating what they really knew. They build up the entire clean Wehrmacht myth as well. To say that most Germans didn't know because they weren't aware of the exact details is just not true is what I'm saying. In certain aspects the Germans have gone really far in taking responsibility while in other aspects it took decades to face what truly happened with fathers and grandfathers.

I feel this is getting awfully off topic from ICE death camps though

Well, to circle back, I think it's impossible right now that in the US that migrant children are being herded into death camps. Remember this is now a country where literally 50% of the country would give anything to make the other team look bad; there isn't a real sense of national unity. Too many people would know.

If you want to make the point that it's possible for the US to slide into industrial genocide like Germany did, or the way we did to the Native Americans like the trail of tears and so on, and we need to stay vigilant to prevent that I would readily agree. There is nothing magical or special about US citizens that would prevent the exact same kind of stuff from developing here the same way that it did there, the way it did back then.

We're pretty far from that now I think and hopefully we won't ever go back in the direction, hopefully the baby steps we've taken now towards authoritarianism do not last.

I think I would agree. Though I believe you are further down the road than baby steps given the militarized nature of your police forces and the level of incarceration in your society. I also find it terrifying that the most powerful country in the world is on that road at all. Nazi Germany was horrific, but beatable. The USA is likely not. At least not with anything resembling current society afterwards, in my view. You've built yourselves a military that no one can stand up to, and weapons of such fearsome power that the world has to cower and cringe to keep you happy.

The world hardly cowers and cringes to keep the US happy. And thay amazing military is less valuable in the nuclear age when a world war is just going to see the world burn.

Have you seen how our leaders in Europe speak to Trump? The only one who even vaguely doesn't tolerate his gak is Merkel, and I 50% believe that is because she knows she can't fake it very well. Politically, we absolutely do cringe and pander to the US's bs.

But Europe has always done that since 45 with the exception of France for a time, because it benefits us immensly. The world is larger than one of the most dedicated groups of US allies. If anything the moment when the US wielded the most power (1989/1991-2010ish) is over when considering how opposing powers have started behaving since the 2010s.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
And thay amazing military is less valuable in the nuclear age when a world war is just going to see the world burn.

I think that's really only useful as a last-ditch invasion deterrent. No one stopped the annexation of Crimea or the low-intensity conflict in Ukraine.

 Ouze wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
And thay amazing military is less valuable in the nuclear age when a world war is just going to see the world burn.

I think that's really only useful as a last-ditch invasion deterrent. No one stopped the annexation of Crimea or the low-intensity conflict in Ukraine.

No of course not, but if we're talking about the US going full Nazi then world war 3 might no be far off either, as Da Boss said Nazi Germany was beatable in relation to current US might. Having a great military in a rational world is much better like you say.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, to circle back, I think it's impossible right now that in the US that migrant children are being herded into death camps. Remember this is now a country where literally 50% of the country would give anything to make the other team look bad; there isn't a real sense of national unity. Too many people would know.

If you want to make the point that it's possible for the US to slide into industrial genocide like Germany did, or the way we did to the Native Americans like the trail of tears and so on, and we need to stay vigilant to prevent that I would readily agree. There is nothing magical or special about US citizens that would prevent the exact same kind of stuff from developing here the same way that it did there, the way it did back then.

We're pretty far from that now I think and hopefully we won't ever go back in the direction, hopefully the baby steps we've taken now towards authoritarianism do not last.

The Auld Grump

 Da Boss wrote:
Have you seen how our leaders in Europe speak to Trump? The only one who even vaguely doesn't tolerate his gak is Merkel, and I 50% believe that is because she knows she can't fake it very well. Politically, we absolutely do cringe and pander to the US's bs.

The key here is that it's so dam EASY to manipulate Trump, why not act nice towards him and reap the benefits?

Maybe that is part of the reason why Trump and Kim might actually meet. They are both craving the legitimacy of being acknowledged by other leaders.

NinthMusketeer: I'm not seeing that myself. I see him pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord, pulling out of the Iran deal, and generally trashing multilateral-ism all over the place. And we pretty much have to play nice.

I can't believe they are getting this thing back on track. It makes Trump look even worse after the official letter. What are they hoping to get out of this is the big question, meeting Kim has nothing to do with Trump's stated goals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
NinthMusketeer: I'm not seeing that myself. I see him pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord, pulling out of the Iran deal, and generally trashing multilateral-ism all over the place. And we pretty much have to play nice.

Consider it damage control, Trump could be a lot worse towards Europe. We're not going to convince Trump otherwise, but we can reduce the potential damage to Europe.

It could be a negotiation tactic. North Korea is historically flakey, but if you threaten to cancel before they’ve gotten their handout they might be more willing to actually be genuine.

North Korea might be the one place where Trump being Trump is a good thing. He is unpredictable so NKs usual bait and switch isn’t a sure thing like against a “normal” US president.