US Politics

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**Disciple of Fate**

But NK isn't trying to do a bait and switch. Kim actually wants to meet Trump because it will make him look good. What will be the bait and switch is NK ignoring any deal made there.

**Da Boss**

And that, the damage control you are talking about, that is what I mean when I say we cringe towards America. Any other country that behaved the way they behaved, we'd at least be discussing sanctions on them. Instead we suck up to Trump and flatter him. Forgive me if I'm not particularly impressed with that, but it's of course due to America's unrivalled power. Which is why America taking ANY steps on the road to fascism is fething terrifying.

**whembly**

Da Boss... ya don't have to worry about the US going the fascism route.

Way too many armed citizens here.

**Da Boss**

And from where I'm sitting, plenty of them are cheering the fascists on.

(edit to add: I find it terrifying, but I do not think it is likely that the US will become a fascist state, just now much more possible than it seemed six years ago. And that's worrying enough! It looks to me like your systems have been corroded and damaged by excesses of money and lies, but they are still remarkably strong and well thought through in many regards. I have some hope that your legal system will help to protect your democratic systems, damaged as they are).

**whembly**

Da Boss wrote:
And from where I'm sitting, plenty of them are cheering the fascists on.

No where near enough dude.

**Disciple of Fate**

Da Boss wrote:
And that, the damage control you are talking about, that is what I mean when I say we cringe towards America. Any other country that behaved the way they behaved, we'd at least be discussing sanctions on them. Instead we suck up to Trump and flatter him. Forgive me if I'm not particularly impressed with that, but it's of course due to America's unrivalled power. Which is why America taking ANY steps on the road to fascism is fething terrifying.

But again, you said the world, not Europe. Europe has played that role to the US since 45 because we benefit from being the junior partner in the US hegemony. We're not going to shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to destoy our own system. NATO and the Washington Consensus are hugely important just to burn down with sanctions over one stupid President.

You're trying to put the actions of some of the closest US allies as somehow representative of the whole world.

**Da Boss**

I'd agree with that, for now. I'm saying the mere possibility is terrifying. America is a bloody scary country, when you're not under it's protection. You could wipe my country off the map without breaking a sweat, and without using nuclear weapons. To see your country behaving so erratically is deeply worrying.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
And that, the damage control you are talking about, that is what I mean when I say we cringe towards America. Any other country that behaved the way they behaved, we'd at least be discussing sanctions on them. Instead we suck up to Trump and flatter him. Forgive me if I'm not particularly impressed with that, but it's of course due to America's unrivalled power. Which is why America taking ANY steps on the road to fascism is fething terrifying.

But again, you said the world, not Europe. Europe has played that role to the US since 45 because we benefit from being the junior partner in the US hegemony. We're not going to shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to destoy our own system.

You're trying to put the actions of some of the closest US allies as somehow representative of the whole world.

That's a fair cop. Re-write that to "The allies of the US". However, even their main opponents are pretty damn careful not to antagonize them.

**Disciple of Fate**

Da Boss wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
And that, the damage control you are talking about, that is what I mean when I say we cringe towards America. Any other country that behaved the way they behaved, we'd at least be discussing sanctions on them. Instead we suck up to Trump and flatter him. Forgive me if I'm not particularly impressed with that, but it's of course due to America's unrivalled power. Which is why America taking ANY steps on the road to fascism is fething terrifying.

But again, you said the world, not Europe. Europe has played that role to the US since 45 because we benefit from being the junior partner in the US hegemony. We're not going to shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to destoy our own system.

You're trying to put the actions of some of the closest US allies as somehow representative of the whole world.

That's a fair cop. Re-write that to "The allies of the US". However, even their main opponents are pretty damn careful not to antagonize them.

Because the main opponents have nothing to gain from directly antagonizing the US. The US is in an entirely different hemisphere from its opponents. You can undermine the US without directly going against it. Both China and Russia are doing that pretty well in the Middle East and East Asia without needing to directly clash with the US. Letting Trump dig his own grave is much better than useless confrontation.

**whembly**

Da Boss wrote:
I'd agree with that, for now. I'm saying the mere possibility is terrifying. America is a bloody scary country, when you're not under it's protection. You could wipe my country off the map without breaking a sweat, and without using nuclear weapons. To see your country behaving so erratically is deeply worrying.

I think you have much more to worry about a possible 2nd Civil War then my country wiping your country "off the map".

Even then, it's such a remote possibility...that the odds are you'd be struck by lightning twice.

Keep in mind, our country goes through a "mini-revolution" every 4 years or so. Whether it's a different party taking control of the Whitehouse and/or swinging the House/Senate to different party.

We & you will be fine. Keep calling out the BS's and mind the bluster. Ya'll be fine.

**Mario**

whembly wrote:Da Boss... ya don't have to worry about the US going the fascism route.

Way too many armed citizens here.

And way too many are okay with things as they are going (and a two party system that leans rather to the right anyways). Pledge of Allegiance in school (I think?), that kneeling could be seen as disrespect to the country (and be a controversy for such a long time). Why are there so many flags? Or look through any police shooting thread where half the people justify any police shooting with the flimsiest of justifications. Or how about the deification of soldiers and the military? Relatively high degree of religiousness. Then we have all the rugged individualists/patriots who on the one hand say they'd stand up to fascism/totalitarianism but on the other hand also seem to implicitly support all kinds of policies that point towards fascism(-lite). To me it looks like most of them would fall in line instead of actually doing something about it.

At times it's creepy and worrying.

whembly wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
I'd agree with that, for now. I'm saying the mere possibility is terrifying. America is a bloody scary country, when you're not under it's protection. You could wipe my country off the map without breaking a sweat, and without using nuclear weapons. To see your country behaving so erratically is deeply worrying.

I think you have much more to worry about a possible 2nd Civil War then my country wiping your country "off the map".

Even then, it's such a remote possibility...that the odds are you'd be struck by lightning twice.

Keep in mind, our country goes through a "mini-revolution" every 4 years or so. Whether it's a different party taking control of the Whitehouse and/or swinging the House/Senate to different party.

We & you will be fine. Keep calling out the BS's and mind the bluster. Ya'll be fine.

That's not a mini-revolution, just an election in a rather homogenous two party system. Those are two right wing parties, one more centrist (with a few left-ish ideas at times) and the other fell off the crazy cliff somewhere (right now). That's a barely more radical than a mild course correction. From the inside it may look like politically left and right but only because all the options outside of the tiny accepted window get ignored.

**NinthMusketeer**

Da Boss wrote:
I'd agree with that, for now. I'm saying the mere possibility is terrifying. America is a bloody scary country, when you're not under it's protection. You could wipe my country off the map without breaking a sweat, and without using nuclear weapons. To see your country behaving so erratically is deeply worrying.

Unprecedented, but not erratic. The current administration and sheer incompetence/corruption of the GOP is a direct result of a trend that has been clearly going on for decades. There is a very distinct cause and effect here whereby 40% of citizens have become increasingly delusional while the other 60% become increasingly apathetic. But what the current administration has done is mobilize a lot of those citizens who didn't bother to vote and made them realize that yes, elections do have consequences. And like I've mentioned before one could not create a plan that would set the GOP up for long-term failure more than what they are already doing. This is the party of white people (shrinking demographic), cuts to supporting the elderly (growing demographic), denying climate change (increasingly a problem), sexual harassment (with women trending towards greater political participation), and favoring the rich (as we enter the worst wealth gap since the 1920s). They have spent the last decade promising a lot only to finally get power and deliver worse than nothing. They have nothing left but lies, which are all well and good until the next economic crash hits. All of this was something a lot of people saw coming, whether they wanted to believe it or not anyone looking at things with a reasonably intelligent mindset knew US politics were going to get worse before they got better. But they will get better.

Removed - BrookM

**TheAuldGrump**

whembly wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
And from where I'm sitting, plenty of them are cheering the fascists on.

No where near enough dude.

A lot of them are the fascists....

The Auld Grump

**BaronIveagh**

TheAuldGrump wrote:

A lot of them are the fascists....
The Auld Grump

Yeah, makes me yearn for the good old days of WW2 where anyone yelling 'Heil Hitler' was fair game.

**reds8n**

https://www.axios.com/broad-based-pay-rises-retraining-automation-executives-3e68d31c-51bc-4bde-a362-7ce12b039e7c.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic

Very few Americans have enjoyed steadily rising pay beyond inflation over the last couple of decades, a shift from prior years in which the working and middle classes enjoyed broad-based wage gains as the economy expanded.

Why it matters: Now, executives of big U.S. companies suggest that the days of most people getting a pay raise are over, and that they also plan to reduce their work forces further.

Show less
Quick take: This was rare, candid and bracing talk from executives atop corporate America, made at a conference Thursday at the Dallas Fed. The message is that Americans should stop waiting for across-the-board pay hikes coinciding with higher corporate profit; to cash in, workers will need to shift to higher-skilled jobs that command more income.

Troy Taylor, CEO of the Coke franchise for Florida, said he is currently adding employees with the idea of later reducing the staff over time "as we invest in automation." Those being hired: technically-skilled people. "It's highly technical just being a driver," he said.

The moderator asked the panel whether there would be broad-based wage gains again. "It's just not going to happen," Taylor said. The gains would go mostly to technically-skilled employees, he said. As for a general raise? "Absolutely not in my business," he said.
John Stephens, chief financial officer at AT&T, said 20% of the company's employees are call-center workers. He said he doesn't need that many. In addition, he added, "I don't need that many guys to install coaxial cables."
Because of the changes coming, AT&T is pushing employees to take nano-degree programs to prepare them for other jobs — either at AT&T or elsewhere.

..thanks for the tax cuts though.

**LordofHats**

It's almost like thinking saving the rich money will result in a better job situation for everyone is completely out of touch with reality or something.

**A Town Called Malus**

LordofHats wrote:
It's almost like thinking saving the rich money will result in a better job situation for everyone is completely out of touch with reality or something.

If only there was some way people could have known!

**tneva82**

Pays off to vote for Trump eh?

**BaronIveagh**

reds8n wrote:
The message is that Americans should stop waiting for across-the-board pay hikes coinciding with higher corporate profit; to cash in, workers will need to shift to higher-skilled jobs that command more income.

Which are actually few and far between even if you have the skills and experience.

**Bran Dawri**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
It's almost like thinking saving the rich money will result in a better job situation for everyone is completely out of touch with reality or something.

If only there was some way people could have known!

Like every other time it's been tried?

**Ouze**

No, no, it will be different this time!

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ouze wrote:
No, no, it will be different this time!

I swear, it's like an episode of COPS. . .but one of those episodes where the wife is throwing that super redneck husband's gak all over the lawn through the windows of the house, while he's on the lawn saying "baby I'm sorry!!! I swear this time will be different!!!"

Only problem is. . . some of the "wives" in this situation happily welcome the trashy dude back into the house and believe that things will be different this time.

**Spinner**

It's all eighteenth-dimensional chess. The more people are underpaid or even lose their jobs, the more economic anxiety they'll have. And, as we all know, economic anxiety is the defining trait of the Trump supporter!

**Redcruisair**

So Poland is willing to pay $2B for a permanent US military base within its borders.

How will this go down in the White House I wonder? What do you guys think about it?

https://www.politico.eu/article/nato-poland-offers-us-up-to-2-billion-for-permanent-american-military-base/

Poland wants a permanent U.S. military presence — and is willing to pony up as much as $2 billion
to get it, according to a defense ministry proposal obtained by Polish news portal Onet.

The Polish offer reflects a long-standing desire in Warsaw to build closer security relations with the U.S.
and put American boots on the ground. The push dates back to Poland’s entry into NATO in 1999, but has taken
on added urgency in the wake of Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region four years ago and aggressive posture toward the alliance.

Coming just over a month before NATO leaders gather in Brussels for a summit, the Polish initiative is bound
to anger Russia, and will be looked at with skepticism by European allies that want to improve relations with Moscow, such as Italy and at times Germany.

**whembly**

reds8n wrote:
https://www.axios.com/broad-based-pay-rises-retraining-automation-executives-3e68d31c-51bc-4bde-a362-7ce12b039e7c.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic

Very few Americans have enjoyed steadily rising pay beyond inflation over the last couple of decades, a shift from prior years in which the working and middle classes enjoyed broad-based wage gains as the economy expanded.

Why it matters: Now, executives of big U.S. companies suggest that the days of most people getting a pay raise are over, and that they also plan to reduce their work forces further.

Show less
Quick take: This was rare, candid and bracing talk from executives atop corporate America, made at a conference Thursday at the Dallas Fed. The message is that Americans should stop waiting for across-the-board pay hikes coinciding with higher corporate profit; to cash in, workers will need to shift to higher-skilled jobs that command more income.

Troy Taylor, CEO of the Coke franchise for Florida, said he is currently adding employees with the idea of later reducing the staff over time "as we invest in automation." Those being hired: technically-skilled people. "It's highly technical just being a driver," he said.

The moderator asked the panel whether there would be broad-based wage gains again. "It's just not going to happen," Taylor said. The gains would go mostly to technically-skilled employees, he said. As for a general raise? "Absolutely not in my business," he said.
John Stephens, chief financial officer at AT&T, said 20% of the company's employees are call-center workers. He said he doesn't need that many. In addition, he added, "I don't need that many guys to install coaxial cables."
Because of the changes coming, AT&T is pushing employees to take nano-degree programs to prepare them for other jobs — either at AT&T or elsewhere.

..thanks for the tax cuts though.

I ain't rich... just barely able to maintain my Warhammer hobby. And the tax cut gave me an immediate benefit.

**nels1031**

Might as well, we already train there on a regular basis, and they are very committed members of NATO.

I went to Poland twice for maintenance support during the first + second (I think but could be wrong, I remember it was a big deal for us to enter Poland in 2000 ) training exercises that Poland hosted after it became a NATO member in 1999. It was a hellacious drive from my post in Bamberg.

Could lead to a round of BRAC in Germany.

**whembly**

Redcruisair wrote:
So Poland is willing to pay $2B for a permanent US military base within its borders.

How will this go down in the White House I wonder? What do you guys think about it?

https://www.politico.eu/article/nato-poland-offers-us-up-to-2-billion-for-permanent-american-military-base/

Poland wants a permanent U.S. military presence — and is willing to pony up as much as $2 billion
to get it, according to a defense ministry proposal obtained by Polish news portal Onet.

The Polish offer reflects a long-standing desire in Warsaw to build closer security relations with the U.S.
and put American boots on the ground. The push dates back to Poland’s entry into NATO in 1999, but has taken
on added urgency in the wake of Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region four years ago and aggressive posture toward the alliance.

Coming just over a month before NATO leaders gather in Brussels for a summit, the Polish initiative is bound
to anger Russia, and will be looked at with skepticism by European allies that want to improve relations with Moscow, such as Italy and at times Germany.

OOOOOOoooh... Trump may take them up on that offer...

**nels1031**

Edit:Whoopsy!

**A Town Called Malus**

whembly wrote:

OOOOOOoooh... Trump may take them up on that offer...

He'll tweet about it, then Putin will get in touch and it'll be dropped.

**whembly**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
whembly wrote:

OOOOOOoooh... Trump may take them up on that offer...

He'll tweet about it, then Putin will get in touch and it'll be dropped.

Right... he's Putin's puppet... I forgot.

**r_squared**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Have you seen how our leaders in Europe speak to Trump? The only one who even vaguely doesn't tolerate his gak is Merkel, and I 50% believe that is because she knows she can't fake it very well. Politically, we absolutely do cringe and pander to the US's bs.
The key here is that it's so dam EASY to manipulate Trump, why not act nice towards him and reap the benefits?

Quite simply, because it doesn't work. Take the UK as an example. Apart from the people thinking he's a massive bell-end the government has been consistently simpering upto him and kissing his arse, but that won't stop him trying to get us to break up the NHS and sell it off to American health companies, but only after he's forced us to pony up even more money for drugs because the American health system can't compete.

He's not a capitalist, he's a monopolist, and he wants Americans to hold all the monopolies, and feth everyone else.

As a foreign national you can no more manipulate Trump than you can control a drunken bull in a China shop with a balloon on a stick.