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Trying to remember when Kroot Mercenaries was a thing, think it was 4th. Anyway... the problem with a Kroot dex is that it would fall short in content. Don't get me wrong its cool, Kroot where a thing for awhile and they do have an interesting tribal nitch in 40k. From puji traps, Krootox, Signature Evolution etc. Though I feel its more of a whats out there in the universe kind of nitch is what makes them so interesting. Vespid kind of fit in the same boat but they never tried to expand on the culture like Kroot. I think in the end its a big Meh... even back in the day when they tried to make it a thing it fell short. Not only in what they brought in firepower to the table but also in interest.

I would say there is a cult following for Kroot culture, and a lot of people support the continuation of Kroot cultures continued existence but don't want to invest in it. I think that is what your seeing and feeling hopeful about. But its honestly just people supporting you being you not that they want to run a Kroot Army. This is my worry with SoB right now. They're making a big push for the girls again and its good I support it. But I wont be investing in much of them myself maybe 7 models to support another project that needs imperial female figures. And the reasoning for that is as I was saying to make the army feel more vibrant and interesting when played on the table top.

GW might want to think about if they like these nitch cultures / races and if they want to roll them into some kind of 'Mercenaries' dex or what have you. PP does this and it does well with special characters or units to add more flavor to armies and their own lore etc. So it might be something GW would want to look into, the problem is when you have a unit or figure that gives abilities that break or turn an army into cheese. So its a really touchy thing but I could see that in the future to a point as long as its kind of low key in power.

I'd rather see current lines be updated to plastic before we add even more factions to balance. I know it's not going to happen that way, but it would be preferable in my mind.

Kroot are mercenaries. I think it'd be easy to design the codex not as a stand-alone faction, but something that could be run alongside many other armies (Tau obviously, Guard. Eldar, Chaos, Orks).

I’d love tau to get an allied army, especially since they make the most sense to have a huge list of allies...

airinhere wrote:

There was recently a huge drama about some poor schmoe who used a fancy named character in his army that was literally just a repaint and shoulderpad variant of its founding Legion who was disqualified for his dubious ways. The error was not in taking a overpowered special character, but instead he took him without the pay to win requirements demanded of the game creators. Meanwhile a panalopy of stupidly OP alternate Supermen were technically available to him if he had just painted his guys all red instead.
.

Lol - so you have no idea what actually happened right?

Please god no. I'd love an expansion to the auxiliaries available within the tau codex, but they do not deserve their own codex. It'd be another tempestus scion or harlequins, we just don't need it.

I think it would be fun to have a Codex Mercenaries filled with several kinds of aliens, some wacky abilities and a few special rules to include some old standbys like orks and chaos marines (in small bands).

You could substitute all manner of brands of models to fill the ranks for counts as...so in other words, it would never happen!

airinhere wrote:
I want armies that rely on the troops. I am beyond caring about coldstar commander armies that bent rules so bad it required a rewrite by the creators. Spamming ten generals must seem like a great game to many, but I just can't see what changed the game away from what it started as.

Coldstar Commanders could only take two weapons (a High-Output Burst Cannon and a Missile Pod) in the Index so they weren't ever used for anything other than buffing drone swarms. The regular (XV8/85) Commanders were the issue you're referring to.

Dude, it's all about troops currently. 7 points for strike teams? 5 points for kroot? Yes please.

I used to run a very kroot heavy list back around 2003. Back when their rifles gave +1 attack and Angkor Prok had rules they could be terrifying to any infantry that weren't terminators. Having 100 infiltrating troops pop up on you're most vulnerable flank was unsettling.

I voted Meh because I think they should have a Codex, but I wouldn't buy it or any kroot models. I'm not personally a fan of kroot, but I like their place in the lore and I would love to see the xenos get more love.

tneva82 wrote:

airinhere wrote:

There was recently a huge drama about some poor schmoe who used a fancy named character in his army that was literally just a repaint and shoulderpad variant of its founding Legion who was disqualified for his dubious ways. The error was not in taking a overpowered special character, but instead he took him without the pay to win requirements demanded of the game creators. Meanwhile a panalopy of stupidly OP alternate Supermen were technically available to him if he had just painted his guys all red instead.

Something is fishy with this story. Paint scheme has 0% relevance on what you can field and what not.

It is completely incorrect. It was nothing to do with paint.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I used to run a very kroot heavy list back around 2003. Back when their rifles gave +1 attack and Angkor Prok had rules they could be terrifying to any infantry that weren't terminators. Having 100 infiltrating troops pop up on you're most vulnerable flank was unsettling.

Their rifles need to do that again. It's ridiculous that they don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

airinhere wrote:

There was recently a huge drama about some poor schmoe who used a fancy named character in his army that was literally just a repaint and shoulderpad variant of its founding Legion who was disqualified for his dubious ways. The error was not in taking a overpowered special character, but instead he took him without the pay to win requirements demanded of the game creators. Meanwhile a panalopy of stupidly OP alternate Supermen were technically available to him if he had just painted his guys all red instead.

This is on par with those garbage Tumblr stories that didn't happen. Nobody has EVER done this.

I say this as a Tau player...

No way should the Tau have access to a hard-hitting close-combat unit.

Kroot should be skirmishers and scouts (which is why they should not be viable as a stand-alone force). They should not have tough hard-hitting units in any respect. They are indeed chaff units -- they die so that the "first among equals" don't have to!

What I would like is a troops unit, some cavalry and so forth that would have their own stratagems involving skirmishing and scouting. You could stick them in a detachment allied to your main force.

I agree on having Kroot Cavalry. Also, I'd like to see the return of Knarlocks. Vulture kindred were also a cool idea.

Alcibiades wrote:
I say this as a Tau player...

No way should the Tau have access to a hard-hitting close-combat unit.

Kroot should be skirmishers and scouts (which is why they should not be viable as a stand-alone force). They should not have tough hard-hitting units in any respect. They are indeed chaff units -- they die so that the "first among equals" don't have to!

What I would like is a troops unit, some cavalry and so forth that would have their own stratagems involving skirmishing and scouting. You could stick them in a detachment allied to your main force.

I say this as a Tau player...

I completely disagree with everything you just wrote.

Kroot are not the tau's lackeys, they are an independent race with preferred contracts with the Tau. They are a race of mercenaries, and mercenaries ARE NOT CHAFF. Mercenaries are extremely experienced soldiers who fulfill a role your own regulars can't. Relegating them as second class citizens and "chaff" is both illogical and boring. If the Tau mistreated them, they would quickly turn on the Tau, because they're literally bio-weapons. They deserve to be fully fleshed out and given the tools to deal with any other army. They should be their own separate faction from the Tau.

GW designers wanted to make Kroot their own faction way back when, but were too tight on funds to do so. They now have their chance and they should do it.

Also, why shouldn't Tau be allowed to soup in some good close combat? How is it any different to Guard and Ogryns? Or Guard and Custodes?

Dandelion wrote:
They are a race of mercenaries, and mercenaries ARE NOT CHAFF. Mercenaries are extremely experienced soldiers who fulfill a role your own regulars can't.

Yeah, being chaff. If they were such good soldiers GW would give them fancy stats. But they're 5ppm with stats to reflect it. Their only advantage is the scout move.


And thinking of them as an independent race is simply incorrect. The kroot "can be found scattered across the galaxy, but are most concentrated within the Eastern Fringe." Their homeworld, Pech, is within the borders of the tau empire and "the kroot there have wholly pledged allegiance." (tau codex 6th ed) So no, they are not an "independent race with preferred contracts with the Tau" They are a disparate alien species with a large diaspora, of which the main and central body has signed up to be a part of the tau empire.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
They are a race of mercenaries, and mercenaries ARE NOT CHAFF. Mercenaries are extremely experienced soldiers who fulfill a role your own regulars can't.

Yeah, being chaff. If they were such good soldiers GW would give them fancy stats. But they're 5ppm with stats to reflect it. Their only advantage is the scout move.
And thinking of them as an independent race is simply incorrect. The kroot "can be found scattered across the galaxy, but are most concentrated within the Eastern Fringe." Their homeworld, Pech, is within the borders of the tau empire and "the kroot there have wholly pledged allegiance." (tau codex 6th ed) So no, they are not an "independent race with preferred contracts with the Tau" They are a disparate alien species with a large diaspora, of which the main and central body has signed up to be a part of the tau empire.

And from those same bits of fluff talking about them having "wholly pledged allegiance to the Tau"? They also talk about how the Fire Caste don't treat them as expendable chaff and commanders who do treat them as such see themselves censured/disgraced.

The scout move and their old "Fieldcraft" rule is what was supposed to represent their being extremely skilled at being skirmishers and operating in forests and jungles (or in Damocles Gulf, Imperial cities), which was always how the Carnivore squads were described as operating in the Tau order of battle. They weren't heavy infantry(that's the Fire Warriors), they weren't stationary support units(Pathfinders and Broadsides), they weren't shock troops(Stealth and Crisis Suits)...they were there to act as forward harassment units and in some cases as bait in a trap--and in those instances the Fire Caste would try to minimize the casualties as much as possible.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The scout move and their old "Fieldcraft" rule is what was supposed to represent their being extremely skilled at being skirmishers and operating in forests and jungles (or in Damocles Gulf, Imperial cities), which was always how the Carnivore squads were described as operating in the Tau order of battle. They weren't heavy infantry(that's the Fire Warriors), they weren't stationary support units(Pathfinders and Broadsides), they weren't shock troops(Stealth and Crisis Suits)...they were there to act as forward harassment units and in some cases as bait in a trap--and in those instances the Fire Caste would try to minimize the casualties as much as possible.

No doubt, but that's what the current rules have them as. They used to have move through cover, stealth (forests) and infiltrate. Now they just have the scout move. They're the tau screen in 8th ed.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The scout move and their old "Fieldcraft" rule is what was supposed to represent their being extremely skilled at being skirmishers and operating in forests and jungles (or in Damocles Gulf, Imperial cities), which was always how the Carnivore squads were described as operating in the Tau order of battle. They weren't heavy infantry(that's the Fire Warriors), they weren't stationary support units(Pathfinders and Broadsides), they weren't shock troops(Stealth and Crisis Suits)...they were there to act as forward harassment units and in some cases as bait in a trap--and in those instances the Fire Caste would try to minimize the casualties as much as possible.

No doubt, but that's what the current rules have them as. They used to have move through cover, stealth (forests) and infiltrate. Now they just have the scout move. They're the tau screen in 8th ed.

Right, but that's not what you said. You tried to quote the 6th edition Codex to justify your stance. Skitarii had Move Through Cover and a Scout move; now they have neither. Move Through Cover doesn't really seem to exist at this juncture.

Realistically, Gun Drones(and only Gun Drones) should be brought down in price to serve as a screen but that's not going to happen I think.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Right, but that's not what you said. You tried to quote the 6th edition Codex to justify your stance. Skitarii had Move Through Cover and a Scout move; now they have neither. Move Through Cover doesn't really seem to exist at this juncture.

Realistically, Gun Drones(and only Gun Drones) should be brought down in price to serve as a screen but that's not going to happen I think.

Not at all. I used the 6th ed codex to demonstrate that Dandelion was getting the fluff about the kroot being an "independent race with preferred contracts with the Tau" wrong.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Right, but that's not what you said. You tried to quote the 6th edition Codex to justify your stance. Skitarii had Move Through Cover and a Scout move; now they have neither. Move Through Cover doesn't really seem to exist at this juncture.

Realistically, Gun Drones(and only Gun Drones) should be brought down in price to serve as a screen but that's not going to happen I think.

Not at all. I used the 6th ed codex to demonstrate that Dandelion was getting the fluff about the kroot being an "independent race with preferred contracts with the Tau" wrong.

Except he wasn't, since they do still talk about the fact that some of the Kroot's mercenary activities are "overlooked".

There are kroot mercenaries. Then there are the large body of kroot who are integrated members of the tau empire and only serve them.

The assertion that the kroot are an independent race of mercenaries with preferred contracts with the tau is a simply incorrect.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
There are kroot mercenaries. Then there are the large body of kroot who are integrated members of the tau empire and only serve them.

The assertion that the kroot are an independent race of mercenaries with preferred contracts with the tau is a simply incorrect.

And the assertion that the Kroot are not a semi-independent race(which they are--they're closer to the way that some of the Roman auxiliaries were treated than slaves or the like as some insist) with members of the race serving as mercenaries that have preferred contracts with the T'au is simply incorrect as well.

At one point they had it fairly well spelled out that the Kroot rotated out the 'pure' members of their race as Tau Auxiliaries so that the weirdness like the Vulture Kindreds wouldn't be flaunted in the Tau's faces.

not gunu lie... I kinda want dino riders in 40k... I could see them working will with my Orks. XD

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
They are a race of mercenaries, and mercenaries ARE NOT CHAFF. Mercenaries are extremely experienced soldiers who fulfill a role your own regulars can't.

Yeah, being chaff. If they were such good soldiers GW would give them fancy stats. But they're 5ppm with stats to reflect it. Their only advantage is the scout move.


And thinking of them as an independent race is simply incorrect. The kroot "can be found scattered across the galaxy, but are most concentrated within the Eastern Fringe." Their homeworld, Pech, is within the borders of the tau empire and "the kroot there have wholly pledged allegiance." (tau codex 6th ed) So no, they are not an "independent race with preferred contracts with the Tau" They are a disparate alien species with a large diaspora, of which the main and central body has signed up to be a part of the tau empire.

If marines were such good soldiers, then GW would give them fancy stats.

Most of my lore knowledge comes from 3rd, so I may be out of the loop a bit but here is what the wiki says:

In order to gather genetic material from all over the galaxy, the Kroot offer themselves as mercenaries, and sell their services to anyone willing to pay them. They travel the galaxy taking limited contracts from both major and minor races (most of which are too small to be included in the game), and are regularly employed by the Tau. While the contract with the Tau is supposed to be an exclusive one, the Kroot regularly send out their warspheres to continue their mercenary trade amongst the wider cosmos.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kroot

They may have pledged themselves to the Tau, but they certainly act independently. Allegiances are so finicky sometimes...

Also, Kroot are capable of ambushing Eldar Rangers and tearing them apart according to my 3rd ed codex, so they're evidently effective. If they got 2 attacks with AP-1, and +2 to saves in cover they could easily go up to 7 pts. Right now Kroot are boring to play simply because the only thing they're good at is dying. I once charged a Guard squad with kroot and my kroot got murdered.

Realistically, Gun Drones(and only Gun Drones) should be brought down in price to serve as a screen but that's not going to happen I think.

Give them BS 6+ and drop them to 7-8 points and you now have a perfect screen. Though kroot hounds are also good as chaff (in both fluff and games)

 lolman1c wrote:
not gunu lie... I kinda want dino riders in 40k... I could see them working will with my Orks. XD

Not if you know the history of the Kroot...

The first encounters between the Tau and Kroot were fighting against Orks.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
not gunu lie... I kinda want dino riders in 40k... I could see them working will with my Orks. XD

Not if you know the history of the Kroot...

The first encounters between the Tau and Kroot were fighting against Orks.

I bought the plastic I can make up what ever history I want!

 lolman1c wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
not gunu lie... I kinda want dino riders in 40k... I could see them working will with my Orks. XD

Not if you know the history of the Kroot...

The first encounters between the Tau and Kroot were fighting against Orks.

I bought the plastic I can make up what ever history I want!

Not if they don't have them as being able to ally with each other...

 Kanluwen wrote:

And the assertion that the Kroot are not a semi-independent race(which they are--they're closer to the way that some of the Roman auxiliaries were treated than slaves or the like as some insist) with members of the race serving as mercenaries that have preferred contracts with the T'au is simply incorrect as well.
At one point they had it fairly well spelled out that the Kroot rotated out the 'pure' members of their race as Tau Auxiliaries so that the weirdness like the Vulture Kindreds wouldn't be flaunted in the Tau's faces.

I'm not asserting that, you're not even twisting my words, you're putting words in my mouth.
There are kroot who travel the galaxy and fight for the highest bidder. They are independent. I have never challenged this.
Then there are kroot who are a part of the tau empire, who have wholly pledged allegiance, not mercenaries with preferred contracts. They are integrated members. Not slaves (which I never claimed), but members of the tau empire, like the vespids or gue'vesa, or nicassar or demiurge.
This is all according to the 6th ed codex, which was valid during 7th ed, and unless the 8th ed codex has retconned it, that is still the current fluff.
Anghkor Prok pleged his warriors to he greater good, and that pledge is still honoured. The kroot get payment, but what's the point of being in an empire if you don't get anything from it?
If you think me claiming they were chaff meant I was claiming they were chaff in the fluff, let me make it clear, I was referring to their current position in 8th in terms of gameplay.