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//please skip if you don't like people complaining about how they suck, and are frustrated about sucking

<rant>

I'm about ready to give up on 40k altogether. I'm so frustrated; every time I try to play a game it's like pulling teeth. It feels like after turn two, I never even have a chance, since my opponent always outstrips me in whatever mission we are doing. I don't understand how the game is always so one sided. Every freaking time I try most of my dudes are gone by turn 2 or 3, and in tactical card games, my opponent has 5+ VP's by that time as well. I have not had a good game in over a year, and I am sick of it. (A good game is a game where the game was won by a small margin, or neither player felt like the game was an exercise in futility) I've won one game in the past two years, and it was still completely one sided, just in my favor for once. It wasn't fun at all. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and my regular opponent has no idea either (according to him). It doesn't help he's a bit of a sore winner. I used to not care, but with how easily he keeps wiping me off the table, I'm about ready to slap him. Each game is taking 6 freaking hours to get to turn three, at which point I'm just surrendering because I'm so frustrated. The dice always seem to give my opponent 6s, no matter how much I shoot his units. I've tried to take breaks from the game, even several months, and it's just not working. I love the models, and painting is an excellent Sunday afternoon activity, but I feel like I'm being pulled in two directions; I love the game, but I hate the game.

Have any of you felt this way? Were you able to find a solution? I want to enjoy my hobby again, but I'm out of ideas, and I am honestly ready to pack it all up and sell it off to someone who can get some enjoyment out of it.

I’d say before giving up, consider finding some other people to play against. Your enjoyment of 40k is directly linked to the person across the table from you. Even if they’re a great person, it’s still the same guy over and over. Look on 40k club pages, hang around the local game store, find some other people who want to slam ‘hams. You get to fight different armies and strategies.

You also get different opinions and outlooks on rules. You and your buddy may have been playing a few things incorrectly but just assumed it was right, which could have been making games harder for you. Different players will quickly point out if you’re getting a rule wrong (Players love correcting mistakes more than anything else, doesn’t matter what game it is).

40k is an imbalanced mess try another game system.

Out of curiosity what kind of armies you are playing? For example if you are playing orks then against any codex army you are seriously underdogged from the get-go especially if you don't go for the one viable build of boyz(stormboyz and kommandos also count) and hundreds of them(200 isn't unreasonable!). So it's entirely possible you are playing at seriously disadvantaged. 40k is hardly balanced and there are too good units and units that might just as well be thrown to garbage bin if opponent is bringing anything sort of competive(and some units like stompa or lootas are hard to justify in CASUAL games...)

I'm putting my money on OP being an Ork player.

But in seriousness, what is your regular army and what do you regularly play against? There are some match ups this edition that make for very one sided games.

Some armies+lists will not stack up against others in 40k you need to give us more info as to what you run and what you face.

If you just play the same person and you want to give up that's also telling.

You wouldn't go to the same pizza hut over and over again that sucked and then say THATS IT I GIVE UP ON PIZZA.

ysmiwoaplwse wrote:
Have any of you felt this way?

Frequently. Especially the bit about wanting to slap a sore winner. That's part and parcel of multiplayer games - always has been, and probably always will be.

I don't think there is a solution, to be honest. My workaround is to take a break from playing if it becomes a drag - I personally like the modelling and painting aspects of the hobby just as much (if not moreso) than playing the game, so when I feel the urge to kill rising I'll retreat to the painting table and do a little hobbying until I get my mojo back.

Had an amazing game against orks recently. We played with the orks having Sustained Assault and combined it with Hold at All Costs from the open play scenarios.

ysmiwoaplwse, if you aren't enjoying the combination of the armies on the table, opponents, the scenarios, the terrain, etc., of the games played, then maybe some of those variables need to be changed.

The other alternative is to change what the army is made up of to match the competitive level of the opponent's army and then increase one's skill through practice so games can be closer.

I prefer to change the variables rather than change army and fully dive into developing player skill, but ymmv.

Sorry to hear you're having a rough time of it old bean, just remember it's only a bit of fun!

My recommendation is to implement a handicap system, every time someone wins they have 50 points less to spend in the next game.
Things will soon start getting closer and challenging for both sides!

Cheers
Kroem

Guy at my club plays Deathwatch, hes at the point of giving up until the next edition.

Part of the issue is looking at the army, deciding what it should be able to do and should play like, then discovering the berk who wrote the rules didn't agree and trying to do that is basically suicide.

Some of the factions currently have a few workable ways of playing them, but if you go outside that you may as well not bother.

maybe take your army, and proxy as another to see if you can find a play style you like

I second the issue of some armies simply being sub-par. As an ork player, pretty much every game since 5th was an uphill battle and at some point winning against armies my friends had owned for years simply turned to being unbeatable for me due to edition and codex changes.

So I have two pieces of advice for you:
1) If you want your games to be closer again, consider starting a second army. It switches up things for both you and your opponent, and you can play whatever you feel like. Currently Death Guard, Primaris Marines and Custodes are all pretty cheap to a playable amount of points. Pick whichever has the least in common with your main army.
2) Hobbies are supposed to be fun, if you're not having fun when playing WH40k, stop playing. Maybe the fun returns after a break, or when new rules are released for your army or a new edition is released. Don't waste your time on things that make you feel bad.

ysmiwoaplwse wrote:
I'm so frustrated; every time I try to play a game it's like pulling teeth. It feels like after turn two, I never even have a chance, since my opponent always outstrips me in whatever mission we are doing.

Hey I hear you, but it comes down to who you are playing and army match-ups. There are a lot of factors that need to be considered that we here on Dakka don't know. Your opponent is he WAAC type or is he a fun player? Is your opponent playing meta lists when your not? Or, is it an uneven match-up? Example, top tier codex vs mid to low tier codex/index kind of situation. The current state of the game doesn't 100% support single detachment, single codex lists. I have a feeling that's what your playing, but I don't know for certain. Ask yourself these two questions, are you bringing a knife to a gun fight or is your opponent bringing a gun to a knife fight. This matters a lot. Then ask this about the current units/armies you own. 'Am I able to bring a gun to a gun fight?'

Used to feel a bit like that in 6th / 7th, with my lame duck CSMs and puny Berserkers. Especially when my regular opponent finished his Blood Angels army and started collecting an Eldar Wraithhost.

Started collecting Dark Eldar as a side project, despite knowing they weren't much better.

And now look at them.

Armies relative strengths wax and wane over time, especially from one set of rules to the next. But yeah, as everyone else has said - what armies are you both playing? What aspects of the game are you finding particularly harsh - maybe you're playing them wrong? Are you playing with a decent amount of scenery and cover, or are you lining up your models on a flat featureless battleground and whoever shoots first wins?

Swap armies with the guy you're playing against.

This is a game entirely driven by spreadsheeting power coefficients. Quite plainly, there are armies that are hard countered by other armies, and without knowing what armies you are playing, your opponent is playing, anything beyond would simply be speculation.

My gut tells me your listbuilding is either inferior, or you are playing an army that struggles in the powergaming arena and that your opponents are rocking top tier tournament lists, which is never going to be fun for you if thats the case.

If you're not enjoying the game, don't play. Either figure out what you're doing wrong tactics wise or quit.

I've been having similar frustrations, and I've come up with a few other angles to think about these problems such that they're less irritating. (Advance warning: A solution may involve changing armies.)

First: "My opponent rolls better than me!" He probably doesn't, in the grand scheme of "his dice come up with better results than mine". When I find myself making that complaint if I go back and examine the situation objectively my opponent was able to force me to roll enough saves that I'd die on average rolls, where I wasn't able to force him to do the same. The problem here goes down to things that look killy but aren't in practice, or look tough but aren't in practice. Find more volume. Clutch 6+ saves or 6+ to-wound rolls are a marginal thing; they go away if you force your opponent to roll another die.

Second: This has been said before but consider the matchup. If you're throwing something like Grey Knights, Orks, or Deathwatch into Tyranids, Craftworlds, or Tau you're not going to have a good day. There isn't an easy solution beyond "buy a different army" for this one but if you know your opponent's book is better than yours try asking for softer lists. You may not get them, but if your opponent is unwilling to tone his play down that's a pretty strong sign you should be looking for other opponents.

Third: Consider the format. If you find yourself scooping in two turns after three hours of frustration it may be time to look at playing smaller games. Going down to 1k, or smaller depending on the armies involved, and restricting 300+pt models makes for faster play and allows models/armies that don't have answers to giant kill-everything robots more space to shine. Kill-Team (Heralds of Ruin, or GW's when that shows up eventually) may also give you a chance to put models you've enjoyed painting on the table without taking too long to accomplish nothing.

Fourth: If none of this works, if you find better opponents and use better-matched armies that are less sensitive to dice swings in smaller games and you're still having a long and frustrating time, then yes, it's probably time to try a different game.

ysmiwoaplwse wrote:
//please skip if you don't like people complaining about how they suck, and are frustrated about sucking

<rant>

I'm about ready to give up on 40k altogether. I'm so frustrated; every time I try to play a game it's like pulling teeth. It feels like after turn two, I never even have a chance, since my opponent always outstrips me in whatever mission we are doing. I don't understand how the game is always so one sided. Every freaking time I try most of my dudes are gone by turn 2 or 3, and in tactical card games, my opponent has 5+ VP's by that time as well. I have not had a good game in over a year, and I am sick of it. (A good game is a game where the game was won by a small margin, or neither player felt like the game was an exercise in futility) I've won one game in the past two years, and it was still completely one sided, just in my favor for once. It wasn't fun at all. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and my regular opponent has no idea either (according to him). It doesn't help he's a bit of a sore winner. I used to not care, but with how easily he keeps wiping me off the table, I'm about ready to slap him. Each game is taking 6 freaking hours to get to turn three, at which point I'm just surrendering because I'm so frustrated. The dice always seem to give my opponent 6s, no matter how much I shoot his units. I've tried to take breaks from the game, even several months, and it's just not working. I love the models, and painting is an excellent Sunday afternoon activity, but I feel like I'm being pulled in two directions; I love the game, but I hate the game.

Have any of you felt this way? Were you able to find a solution? I want to enjoy my hobby again, but I'm out of ideas, and I am honestly ready to pack it all up and sell it off to someone who can get some enjoyment out of it.

Could we see your list? Do you have an opponent's list? I'm afraid there isn't much to go on here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Swap armies with the guy you're playing against.

This is a good idea.

Hey dude, im playing Space Wolves, and i liked to play them melee oriented in 7th (with great succes in semi-competitive enviroment), now im getting my ass kicked from here to tuesday.

Then i was like, okay... Time to go tank heavy and change my perception/playstyle or keep loosing. So i bought a Fellblade that ive been wanting for years (that i sometimes proxy as Falchion) and i started winning games by shooting. Then Cuck Approved arrived, and nerfed my newly payed and painted tank to oblivion with 200 points increse, i can tell you i was on the brink of just letting the game go...

I simply said to my club members, this anti close combat edition is burning me out... If we abide by Chapter Approved point nerf on Fellblade/Falchion then i have to take a break from this hobby.

And actually the White Scars player was also fed up by his army not feeling very unique anymore, so we actually started ajusting some points, and bringing back some unique formations. And the game started getting enjoyable for us again. And 4 out of 6 players were okay with this, so yeah it devided the hobby further, but its either that or not playing/attending at all.

In a table top game, you should never beg for opponents OK for advantages/rules changes/home made etc. But honestly... its all you really can do or just sit around and hope a happy go lucky ork player comes your way.

This edition is junk, and the imbalance is greater than ever before. In 7th i knew i would loose some matches like eldar, but even if i played them out i could manage to pull some badass off, nowadays i can only advance and wait to die basicly.

Swap isn't often feasible as that requires level of trust in handling. Imagine what happens if somebody scratches paint? Or damages whole model. Same reason i would never ever ever play aos raw(which basically requires putting models over base of other for 2 models to fight)

Wouldn#t want others play with my models, sure wouldn't even dare to play with others. If i damage my model fine. Others? Less so.

I do to an extent, 8th has a really bad alpha strike problem which I was screaming was gonna be an issue even before 8th dropped when I saw they have garunteed turn one deep strike, able to charge outta deep strike, and got rid of the old wounding system. Honestly the current wound system is one of the biggest issues for alpha strike. T7 and t6 don't mean crap anymore since even S4 wound on 5+ with the addition of strats they wound on 4. I mean I used to infultrate a squad of rubric flamers, run them up, then use vets of the long war. I was wounding T7 units on 4s with 8d6 auto hitting shots.

If they wanna fix alpha strike they need to fix turn one

I lost most of my games when I first started playing 8th edition but I feel that is part of learning and I am doing okay now.

tneva82 wrote:
Swap isn't often feasible as that requires level of trust in handling. Imagine what happens if somebody scratches paint? Or damages whole model. Same reason i would never ever ever play aos raw(which basically requires putting models over base of other for 2 models to fight)

Wouldn#t want others play with my models, sure wouldn't even dare to play with others. If i damage my model fine. Others? Less so.

Agree. A few months ago I a friend lent me a metal chaos dread (from before they were helbrutes) so I could push my DG to 2000 points. During deployment I dropped it on the table by accident and it turned into a pile of metal bits. Even though the owner told me not to worry, I felt terrible.

Trust me, you don't want me to play your army. My old game board used to have multiple dents in it where I knocked my metal SAG from the top floor of a ruin.

Still very interested to find out what the OP and his usual opponent are playing. That could shed a lot of light on the subject (if not completely show us why there is an issue).

One more thing... to all of you that are suggesting starting a new army or switching armies, for many people it's just not that easy. While I used to think GW models were far more expensive than they should be, after building many Gundam models that have far less detail on the small scale and most have no water slide decals, I've come to see that GW models really aren't overpriced. That said, they aren't cheap. Adding an additional 2000 point army to your collection or attempting to sell what you have and starting a brand new 2000 point army costs hundreds of dollars if not thousands (in the case of DKoK for example).

In the end, we really need to see the lists and what we can do to help the guy out without suggesting that he switch armies or add an additional army to his collection. If he does have the money to switch armies or add a new one, then go for it! But, for many, it's just not that easy.

SG

While there are a ton of variables there...

Ditch 40K for a while, heck maybe forever. It's not an amazing game, really, so there are plenty of other rules sets and genres to explore/enjoy. Maybe try out some cool board games for a while instead, or role-playing games. I think people often feel tied to 40K because so many of their friends play it, or the local community is big on it...seriously get on your group page or head to the store and see what else people want to play. There is a portion of the 40K audience which is 40K-only, but most of us are gamer geeks in general and would glady play something else.

You can recoup a good bit of money via eBay or selling off your models if you ever just ditch it.

In general games are clearly decided by the end of turn 2, latest turn 3.

2-3 turns is the appropriate length for a game before it becomes a "mop-up" exercise. I play a loooot of 40k, casual/narrative, escalation, and highly competitive. There is a clear winner in almost every case by turn 3. This is exacerbated by playing at lower points. You should target 1000 minimum for a game.

Make sure you're playing matched play rules. And open war cards can be fun, but they do not make a balanced game, or a remotely close to balanced game. Try the missions in chapter approved, with progressive scoring. My personal favorites are the ITC champions missions - they're used in tournaments but don't let this dissuade you from trying them - they are good for a balanced 40k experience, and you don't need to be a die hard competitive player to enjoy progressive scoring & secondary objectives. They also add a dimension to the game where you can score points without actually annihilating the opponent, so if you're outgunned you can still win by controlling the map and avoiding combat.

Other things that can help:

1. Leverage "reserves." This will help you avoid getting blasted off the table turn 1. The most successful lists place their critical units either out of line of sight or off the table to start.

2. Use a ton of terrain. Shooting is SO STRONG in this edition that you absolutely must have LOS blockers in the middle of the table, and on the sides at the very least. Check out competitive tables as a starting point, the game should feature a significant amount of this.

3. Don't play the frustrating armies. If you're like me and you only have 1-2 days a week to play because of work /family, make them count. Skip games with guys running a ton of Dark Reapers, or guys running a ton of Artillery (guns without needing LOS). These are the two biggest problems in 40k right now, because they make the game less tactical.

4. Be up front that you're looking for a casual game.

5. Accept that losses can be reduced to poor decision making on your part. Trace back why you are losing specific games and hold yourself accountable for it. Losing is frustrating but you learn more from defeat than you do from victory.


If you would like to send a private message, I would be happy to discuss any of these in greater detail, as well as help you with your list.

 Marmatag wrote:


1. Leverage "reserves." This will help you avoid getting blasted off the table turn 1. The most successful lists place their critical units either out of line of sight or off the table to start.

Or put valuable units in rhinos, people. I know it's popular to hate on transports, but they can work.

 ServiceGames wrote:
Still very interested to find out what the OP and his usual opponent are playing. That could shed a lot of light on the subject (if not completely show us why there is an issue).

One more thing... to all of you that are suggesting starting a new army or switching armies, for many people it's just not that easy. While I used to think GW models were far more expensive than they should be, after building many Gundam models that have far less detail on the small scale and most have no water slide decals, I've come to see that GW models really aren't overpriced. That said, they aren't cheap. Adding an additional 2000 point army to your collection or attempting to sell what you have and starting a brand new 2000 point army costs hundreds of dollars if not thousands (in the case of DKoK for example).

In the end, we really need to see the lists and what we can do to help the guy out without suggesting that he switch armies or add an additional army to his collection. If he does have the money to switch armies or add a new one, then go for it! But, for many, it's just not that easy.

SG

I will clarify: I don't advocate going out and buying a completely different 2,000pt army untried/untested/unseen. I recommend proxying in the short term to figure out if a new army would even help, trying small games/kill-team games to figure out if you like an army with just a few things rather than diving in to the tune of many hundreds of dollars only to discover you're right back where you started, and trying allies if applicable (Custodians and Space Marines particularly benefit hugely from a small number of added Guardsmen) to see if you can solve your problem without starting over from scratch.

40k isn't worth playing - it's just not. GW hasn't demonstrated that they're capable of balancing anything, let alone making armies roughly equal in some sort of strength; there will be armies that just destroy other armies, and there won't be much you can do about it.

The problem is that the lore of the game is fantastic - which is probably what keeps a lot of people playing now; nostalgia+background fluff, and the desire to play in that universe/a tabletop game. If any other tabletop game had rules/balancing this poor, it wouldn't survive, period.

Also, people commenting how faction strength waxes and wanes over time just goes to show the issue, one that sadly we've come to accept; "I'm sorry, but you didn't choose the right time to start playing the army that interests you most; should have join X years ago, when your army was the top dog!". - Can elder 40k gamer honestly recommend this game to their friends, knowing that it's very probably a faction that a new player settle on is likely to be bad? I can't.

I'd like to add that sitting down and actually discussing the game you just played, the army both of you played, and the codices in general could go a LONG way.

Maybe you're doing something obvious that a lot of players key in on, you may not realize what you're doing, and it may be opening your army up for all sorts of exploits. Don't expect people to know your codex, but they probably know theirs... and they can tell you exactly how they're mincing you up so hard. Really, tell them you're tired of being a whooping boy and want to make some honest progress into not being thrashed so hard. If they're worth gaming with, they'll help you past that point you're at.

It is really amazing how little discourse between players comes up. We (the community) have no idea why whatever happens happened, we can only speculate or only have half the data. The other half of the data to make the full picture is across the table from you. Try to get some information out of them before blasting the internets with a salty rant that just comes across as frustrated instead of genuinely trying to get better.

/rant