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What do you think and why?

When i see for example an AM player who has no struggle getting 12-15 CP at the start of a 2000p game. And a Custodes player who has maybe 6-9 CP. I wonder is fair shouldnt they have the same number? and if you factor in that an AM player will get porbably another 6-10 CP during the game it gets worse.

I voted that there is a big difference between the codexes when it comes to how powerful their CP are.

I definitely think that not all codexes are created equal when it comes to stratagems.

The problem begins when you have an army like Guard, with adequate but fairly mediocre stratagems, becoming a CP battery for armies like Custodes, who have some pretty badass stratagems!

Some codexes barely use or need CP. Daemons use about 7 CP on average before the game starts.

I didn't vote because my answer isn't up there.

It's fine that some armies generate more command points but this should be factored into the power of their stratagems. It's not. I mean in the case of AM - they generate the easiest AND have some of the best stratagems too.

Command point regurgitation needs to die a horrible death also - plus command points should also stay with the detachment that generated them.

Maybe a good solution for problems with elite army command point generation (custodes/GK) maybe have all of their really expensive HQ's generate additional command points.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't vote because my answer isn't up there.

It's fine that some armies generate more command points but this should be factored into the power of their stratagems. It's not. I mean in the case of AM - they generate the easiest AND have some of the best stratagems too.

Command point regurgitation needs to die a horrible death also - plus command points should also stay with the detachment that generated them.

Maybe a good solution for problems with elite army command point generation (custodes/GK) maybe have all of their really expensive HQ's generate additional command points.

Agreed on the regeneration - CP regeneration is a bit dumb.

What AM stratagems do you think are "Best"?
The only ones I can think of are Crush Them! which is solidly atrocious unless used on a Baneblade, and Defensive Gunners which is ... also the same. Kinda okay, unless you use it on a Baneblade.

Pretty much 100% agree with Unit1126PLL. Some armies have some okay stratagems, with just one or two really good ones. Other armies have a ton of phenomenal stratagems. But all the armies use the same basic model for starting with a set number of stratagems, which means that some armies can throw around their stratagem weight a lot harder than others.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't vote because my answer isn't up there.

It's fine that some armies generate more command points but this should be factored into the power of their stratagems. It's not. I mean in the case of AM - they generate the easiest AND have some of the best stratagems too.

Command point regurgitation needs to die a horrible death also - plus command points should also stay with the detachment that generated them.

Maybe a good solution for problems with elite army command point generation (custodes/GK) maybe have all of their really expensive HQ's generate additional command points.

Agreed on the regeneration - CP regeneration is a bit dumb.

What AM stratagems do you think are "Best"?
The only ones I can think of are Crush Them! which is solidly atrocious unless used on a Baneblade, and Defensive Gunners which is ... also the same. Kinda okay, unless you use it on a Baneblade.

Take cover is awesome - overlapping feilds of fire is amazing - crush them is crappy but hilarious. Plus there are a ton of little 1 pointers that are useful and they can afford to use like grenades strategem.

A lot of that depends on the build and stratagems in question. Often an IG army with gobs of CP cant use even half those it has over the course of a game. Often, because those units are individually rather weeny, they dont have as much effect as they can with other armies. Not always the case, but is a consideration.

That said, IG and Custodes are also something of a unique case, being as polar opposite as you can get, and IG in particular being built around hordes of units not just hordes of models. In previous editions, when army construction was much more restrictive, IG actually required special rules to fit in. Officers were part of command squads and couldnt be taken separately, and you could take a platoon command squad with six infantry squads and a unit of conscripts and multiple heavy and special weapons units all as a single Troops slot, while now that could be several detachments on its own.

However, as to the fundamental imbalance of different CP counts, I dont think we have good data on that, the usefulness of those CP's varies wildly depending on circumstances, and some armies are much more heavily built around them than others, and GW may want certain armies to have more or less, we dont really know.

EDIT: I definitely agree that there are issues with things like IG being used as a CP battery for other factions, Soup needs to get clamped down on hard.

meh, guard has no where near the powerful stratagems that are in some other books. I'd Rank them solidly behind (in no particular order) CSM, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Eldar, Nids, 1000 Sons, Deathguard, Daemons. They are space marine levels of stratagem, but have a ton of CP. They are no where near the top in good stratagems. As Unit said, the problem is that they act as a battery (3 CP + regen) for basically every competitive imperium army.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't vote because my answer isn't up there.

Command point regurgitation needs to die a horrible death also - plus command points should also stay with the detachment that generated them.

This 100%.

GW Needs to take a look at armies and how they generate CP. Elite armies should have *more* CP than others, not less. They have all these incredibly expensive Stratagems they can only ever use once, because they're starved for the very resource they need.

I guarantee I'd run Custodes without guard if I had enough goddamn CP to not need them.

Generally, I like the "concept" of CP regeneration (if not necessarily the implementation) as it potentially stretches CPs and Stratagems a bit more to later terms.

One of the worst aspect of CPs, IMO, is that they tend to make a game heavily loopsided towards the first turn even more so.

In a perfect world, CPs/Stratagem could've been a game design tool to do the opposite, mitigate the alpha-strike-emphasis of an IGO-UGO game like 40K and help armies (or what's left of them) power up towards the later turns to make them equally as important as the first and second one.

Ultimately, Command Points rewards you buying more models, so that’s why it’s there. ;-)

 Cephalobeard wrote:
GW Needs to take a look at armies and how they generate CP. Elite armies should have *more* CP than others, not less. They have all these incredibly expensive Stratagems they can only ever use once, because they're starved for the very resource they need.

I guarantee I'd run Custodes without guard if I had enough goddamn CP to not need them.

This. The way CPs are generated is the inverse of what it should be.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ultimately, Command Points rewards you buying more models, so that’s why it’s there. ;-)

That argument fails to hold water when the armies that are the most starved for CP are also the cheapest to buy. If CP was some evil plan by GW to increase sales, Custodes would be absolutely swimming in them.

Breng77 wrote:
meh, guard has no where near the powerful stratagems that are in some other books. I'd Rank them solidly behind (in no particular order) CSM, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Eldar, Nids, 1000 Sons, Deathguard, Daemons. They are space marine levels of stratagem, but have a ton of CP. They are no where near the top in good stratagems. As Unit said, the problem is that they act as a battery (3 CP + regen) for basically every competitive imperium army.

Armywide +1 to hit - is fantastic. +1 armor to a unit is great too. In fact - all the army specific stratagems for AM are good enough to bring a specific detachment just to be able to use them.

 EnTyme wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ultimately, Command Points rewards you buying more models, so that’s why it’s there. ;-)

That argument fails to hold water when the armies that are the most starved for CP are also the cheapest to buy. If CP was some evil plan by GW to increase sales, Custodes would be absolutely swimming in them.

Nah, it still requires you to buy models to fill out detachments. I like the CP mechanic don’t get me wrong, the only thing I hate is regenerating them. They should have stayed a finite resource to manage. Astra Militarum take the piss, as they start with 12+ and make more every turn. The Eldar are almost as abusive.

The starting CP number should be a hard cap - CP-gain abilities should not let a player surpass that. This means that a Guard or T'au fella going second cannot get more CP because the enemy used stratagems. While minor, this makes the game a bit more fair.

CP should have been attached to HQ's, with the expensive/"leadery" HQ's of elite armies giving more. Something like, each Captain in your army gives +3 CP while a Librarian might only give +2. It'd even help balance out the HQ's a bit if an Exalted Sorcerer gave more CP than a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, for example.

Nice poll, OP.

I have no idea what is going on with the CP escalation:

I played a doubles game a few weeks ago, me and a DG player vs an IG player and an AM player. I had 12CP (which I spent 8 of to get my Daemons into deep strike) and my partner had 9CP, I thought that was an acceptable amount but then the IG player had 15CP and the AM player had 14CP. Me and my DG friend were starved of CP by turn 3 but our opponants were still swimming in it.

I thought this was some kind of crazy good CP farming but then I saw a GSC vs DE game a couple of days ago where they had 10+ CP each (can't remember exact numbers) and were generating more CP each turn with special rules.

Not sure how I feel about the CP generating and/or the highly CP efficient armies. All I really want is to be able to play my Khorne Daemons without crippling my CP supply before the game even begins (though I should just be thankful these new armies can't steal all of that investment I put into the Daemons because it happens before the battle).

 Arachnofiend wrote:
CP should have been attached to HQ's, with the expensive/"leadery" HQ's of elite armies giving more. Something like, each Captain in your army gives +3 CP while a Librarian might only give +2. It'd even help balance out the HQ's a bit if an Exalted Sorcerer gave more CP than a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, for example.

Yay Tau!

It sounded like all this CP stuff was going to be fun little bonuses a player could use in a critical moment to push his army to victory but now it's getting stupid. Some armies barely use them and some armies can fall if they don't use them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I didn't vote because my answer isn't up there.

It's fine that some armies generate more command points but this should be factored into the power of their stratagems. It's not. I mean in the case of AM - they generate the easiest AND have some of the best stratagems too.

Command point regurgitation needs to die a horrible death also - plus command points should also stay with the detachment that generated them.

Maybe a good solution for problems with elite army command point generation (custodes/GK) maybe have all of their really expensive HQ's generate additional command points.

Yeah honestly at first i was eh thats cute on girlymans blue dudes

but then suddenly im facing tau and admech and just going the hell. can i take my turn in peace or do you have to declare something everything i do a thing.

Command points are a cool idea, and I think so far they are implemented very well, save for a couple small adjustments.

They give this game a tactical depth that wasn't there before, and also can create variety in how different armies factions play.

The unfortunate side of command points is the lower tier armies generally have something in common - it's difficult to get CP, or their stratagems aren't very good.

The nice thing is, it's easier to add a few new stratagems, than it is to add a few new units or rework how units work fundamentally.

I am wholly in favor of this implementation so far. The only change I would make, is that you cap out at 12 CP, whether that is from your stock starting CP, or generated through abilities that recoup them when lost.

I think it's awesome they came up with unique detachment rules for dark elder, that helps with their CP. problem is it's the same thing GW always does, they didn't have a cohesive plan or direction and they just now figured out that some armies need special detachment and CP rules, after half the codecies have already been released, which screws the ones already out.
Some armies can be 12 CP with 500pts, some can't even get over 6 with a full 2000 points.

I think the CP system was meant to pomote lore friendly army building by rewarding things that aren't nonsensical, but instead it just turned the cheese up as most Cheese-beards do funky lists just to get extra CP and benefit from every chapter/faction/craftworld in the same army.

Personally I would like to see CP as a resource each turn that is generated rather than a flat amount based on detachment abuse that some factions can do far easier than others.

Each player generates 3CP at the start of the Battle Round, with CP not carrying over to the next turn. That way it's up to the player to decide if they use all their CP on a big 3CP strat in one turn, or stagger them out on several cheaper ones.

Obviously this would mean that some codexes would need their stratagems to be overhauled to fit into this model.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Personally I would like to see CP as a resource each turn that is generated rather than a flat amount based on detachment abuse that some factions can do far easier than others.

Each player generates 3CP at the start of the Battle Round, with CP not carrying over to the next turn. That way it's up to the player to decide if they use all their CP on a big 3CP strat in one turn, or stagger them out on several cheaper ones.

Obviously this would mean that some codexes would need their stratagems to be overhauled to fit into this model.

Would be interesting or additionally CP could be generated off objectives. giving people a reason to stick on them or push people off early instead of ignoring them.

My only issue with CPs is that every new army is getting CPs back in some way, except for Chaos factions, with the Tallyman only getting CP from the specific DG ones. Yeah, it's fluffy or something... but why not extend that to every faction.

You're an eldar, gain your cps back from eldar Strategems.
You're an UM, gain them back from SM Strategems only.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Personally I would like to see CP as a resource each turn that is generated rather than a flat amount based on detachment abuse that some factions can do far easier than others.

Each player generates 3CP at the start of the Battle Round, with CP not carrying over to the next turn. That way it's up to the player to decide if they use all their CP on a big 3CP strat in one turn, or stagger them out on several cheaper ones.

Obviously this would mean that some codexes would need their stratagems to be overhauled to fit into this model.

how about turning Command Points into Victory points? and vice versa. First blood? get a CP. Kill the Warlord? Get a CP. Last turn of your game, turn all your unused CPs into VPs.