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I was replying to the comment that they needed a 50% nerf.

45 still seems too high, but we're closer than we thought.

Bharring wrote:
Fraser,
My point is that Reapers are now in the same range as ML Devs, and nobody thinks ML Devs are OP.

The point about adding chumps was to show the differences. You could get more than double your durability by maxing out a Dev squad, for only half again the points, but nobody does it.

Because ML devs can't move and shoot. Plus are susceptible to -1 to hit abilities. These are the 2 factors that matter - unlike +1 T (which doesnt matter) No when you are taking 2+ saves in cover.


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Bharring wrote:
I was replying to the comment that they needed a 50% nerf.

45 still seems too high, but we're closer than we thought.

I think that was probably an exaggeration - They have been silly good for a long time. They are still silly good. Was hoping they would go down to being just...good. You know? Ultimately though - the changes in this FAQ are even more oppressive than silly reapers. These changes are down right terrible.

I have no idea how warlocks and stuff play because I'm an Ork player but when I saw those nerfs I was like "Wtf? Who even complained about Warlocks?!"

The alpha strike has been mitigated by the FAQs.
This is not a bad move.
What I like in my 30k games is that the game develops smoothly.
Both side move forward unti they are in touch with the enemy.
Such games are much more satisfying and rewarding than the alpha strike games which make me nervous even or stress me before the game has even started.

There's also the little things like how many skirmishers (ASM or Scorpions) it takes to lock down Reapers vs lock down Devs. It doesn't matter much because skirmishers and complicated maneuvers are so rarely done in 40k, but it's not nothing.

Reapers aren't simply "Devs ++". Better, sure. But there are things Devs have that Reapers don't.

The no-penalties thing is probably the biggest thing Reapers have. I might be undervaluing it a little. Still 40+ pts per Reaper seems way too high.

If you think that T4 vs T3 doesn't matter because you can do a 2+ in cover, you must not have used a lot of units without ablaitive wounds before.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Who's still moaning about Guilliman?

He's the one guy holding Marines up and now at 400 I think I just gotta play Raven Guard.

Playing RG is your only choice at this point. Ultras do way more damage but get blasted off the table and have 0 ability to get into possition. Going to look into ravengaurd Spamming Agressors/Intercessors/hellblasters with ancient.

Yeah it's terrible and I think the point I'm about to make any reasonable player would agree.

I don't want/need to win every game but I don't want to get tabled turn one

The fact that the reapers have an always hit on 3+ is enough for them to cost more than marines.

Moving and shooting is way more valuable to survival than +1T and you do that significantly better than marines.

The always hitting on 3+ makes all the difference. Moving and then shooting at anything with a native -1 (which there are a lot of) makes those reapers TWICE as good at shooting than the marines. TWICE.

Also you are only paying lip-service to the fact that 10 of those reapers are going to be shooting twice with word of phoenix.

So they are twice as damaging against some targets. One unit of them can shoot twice per turn, exarchs weapon is really good (and FREE), their secondary fire mode is significantly better AND they are cheaper!

Yep balanced as can be. The mental gymnastics you guys are going through to justify them costing LESS than a unit they are 50-100% better than is crazy. I haven't even gone into the much better synergy with tactics, strategems and psychic powers...

Bharring wrote:
Fraser,
My point is that Reapers are now in the same range as ML Devs, and nobody thinks ML Devs are OP.

The point about adding chumps was to show the differences. You could get more than double your durability by maxing out a Dev squad, for only half again the points, but nobody does it.

They're absolutely not in the same ballpark as devs, only in a vacuum where points alone are being considered, but context is everything. Reapers can hide in a wave serpent with Yvraine, pop out safely, still hitting on 3+ that can't be modified btw by -1 to hit modifier units, and get two rounds of shooting through Yvraine in a single turn. They can then be given conceal for -1 to hit, fire and fade to be moved into cover or out of LoS, and even lightning fast reflexes for an additional -1 to hit. How exactly is that remotely comparable to a devastator squad? I play Eldar/DA/BA/Necrons, I love all my armies, and play with both reapers and devastators, I don't think they remotely compare when you place them in there proper context. I try to run my devs in my DA list is a somewhat comparable way: with Azrael and lieutenant for re rolls and 4++, dark shroud for -1 to hit, and an ancient for value after death, but that is way more support cost than the reapers need and no double shooting to boot.

Funny, when Marines Move & Shoot as well as Guardsmen standing still, everyone complains about how Guardsmen are OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hitting on a 3+ vs hitting on a 4+ is a third again better, not TWICE as good. Only against things with a -2-to-hit are the reapers *twice* as good at shooting. Which are very rare, and rarely army-wide.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The alpha strike has been mitigated by the FAQs.
This is not a bad move.
What I like in my 30k games is that the game develops smoothly.
Both side move forward unti they are in touch with the enemy.
Such games are much more satisfying and rewarding than the alpha strike games which make me nervous even or stress me before the game has even started.

Melee Alpha strike got nerfed. Some melee alpha strike. not even all of it.
Shooting Alpha strike is however mostly unaffected outside of plasma scions. And those can happily wait until turn 2 unless you use nothing but.

That's why people are complaining. If they wanted to nerf Alpha Strike (which would be great) they should have addressed both. not one 1 side.
I expect a lot more Eldar victories with lists similar to the LVO to take tournaments now that all their counters got invalidated and they only received a minor point increase.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I'd love it if Exarchs went up +10ppm across the board, but I'm not holding my breath.

The big advantage of everyone-takes-a-heavy comes at a huge disadvantage of no cheap chumps to take incomming fire. a 10-man Dev squad needs to lose 6 guys before they lose any firepower, but only has 4 guns. Same points gets you, what, 6 Reapers? So Devs can increase their durability by 2.5x, for about the same points that Reapers can improve their firepower by 1.5x.

What makes the Reapers come off slightly better there is the game is currently all about the alpha, and Devs aren't really considered the priority that Reapers are. So most people would rather half again the firepower over more than double the durability.

I'd be totally fine with 34 pt ML Devs vs 35 pt Reapers. I think we're mostly on the same page.

Repeat after me:
Nobody. Will. Take. 10. Man. Squads. Of. Either. Because. Of. Morale. Being. A. Liability.

said no Dark Angel ever

To add to this, I was literally looking to pick up 4-6 more marines to add to my Devastator sqd because I lost the entire Plasma cannon sqd to shooting Tun 1 last week where a few ablative wounds would have done wonders. With Weapons of the Dark Ages and a cherub, keeping plasma cannons alive is a wonderful thing (can't really use transports due to the -1 to move getting out and hurting Overcharge.

 peteralmo wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fraser,
My point is that Reapers are now in the same range as ML Devs, and nobody thinks ML Devs are OP.

The point about adding chumps was to show the differences. You could get more than double your durability by maxing out a Dev squad, for only half again the points, but nobody does it.

They're absolutely not in the same ballpark as devs, only in a vacuum where points alone are being considered, but context is everything. Reapers can hide in a wave serpent with Yvraine, pop out safely, still hitting on 3+ that can't be modified btw by -1 to hit modifier units, and get two rounds of shooting through Yvraine in a single turn. They can then be given conceal for -1 to hit, fire and fade to be moved into cover or out of LoS, and even lightning fast reflexes for an additional -1 to hit. How exactly is that remotely comparable to a devastator squad? I play Eldar/DA/BA/Necrons, I love all my armies, and play with both reapers and devastators, I don't think they remotely compare when you place them in there proper context

This is an old and, frankly, tired argument. You're effectively saying, "They're super good if you give them 150 points in transport support and another 100+ in HQ support (crossing your fingers that the HQ gets their psychic power off), and maybe even better the more points - command and otherwise - you pump into them!"

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fraser,
My point is that Reapers are now in the same range as ML Devs, and nobody thinks ML Devs are OP.

The point about adding chumps was to show the differences. You could get more than double your durability by maxing out a Dev squad, for only half again the points, but nobody does it.

They're absolutely not in the same ballpark as devs, only in a vacuum where points alone are being considered, but context is everything. Reapers can hide in a wave serpent with Yvraine, pop out safely, still hitting on 3+ that can't be modified btw by -1 to hit modifier units, and get two rounds of shooting through Yvraine in a single turn. They can then be given conceal for -1 to hit, fire and fade to be moved into cover or out of LoS, and even lightning fast reflexes for an additional -1 to hit. How exactly is that remotely comparable to a devastator squad? I play Eldar/DA/BA/Necrons, I love all my armies, and play with both reapers and devastators, I don't think they remotely compare when you place them in there proper context

This is an old and, frankly, tired argument. You're effectively saying, "They're super good if you give them 150 points in transport support and another 100+ in HQ support (crossing your fingers that the HQ gets their psychic power off), and maybe even better the more points - command and otherwise - you pump into them!"

Yes. Thats how the Eldar army works. Synergy between units.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Fraser,
My point is that Reapers are now in the same range as ML Devs, and nobody thinks ML Devs are OP.

The point about adding chumps was to show the differences. You could get more than double your durability by maxing out a Dev squad, for only half again the points, but nobody does it.

They're absolutely not in the same ballpark as devs, only in a vacuum where points alone are being considered, but context is everything. Reapers can hide in a wave serpent with Yvraine, pop out safely, still hitting on 3+ that can't be modified btw by -1 to hit modifier units, and get two rounds of shooting through Yvraine in a single turn. They can then be given conceal for -1 to hit, fire and fade to be moved into cover or out of LoS, and even lightning fast reflexes for an additional -1 to hit. How exactly is that remotely comparable to a devastator squad? I play Eldar/DA/BA/Necrons, I love all my armies, and play with both reapers and devastators, I don't think they remotely compare when you place them in there proper context

This is an old and, frankly, tired argument. You're effectively saying, "They're super good if you give them 150 points in transport support and another 100+ in HQ support (crossing your fingers that the HQ gets their psychic power off), and maybe even better the more points - command and otherwise - you pump into them!"

LOL, Eldar psykers don't cross there fingers to get psychic powers off...Also, what exactly are you arguing here? No eldar player considers either Yvraine or a Wave Serpent as this anchor-around-your-neck tax, they're both individually great units and the stratagems are very powerful and dirt cheap. I think you're trying to suggest that the eldar play has to jump through hoops or something to make reapers good? No, they are basically effortlessly good. Devs on the other hand do take a lot of dedication to prop them up properly.

Bharring wrote:
Funny, when Marines Move & Shoot as well as Guardsmen standing still, everyone complains about how Guardsmen are OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hitting on a 3+ vs hitting on a 4+ is a third again better, not TWICE as good. Only against things with a -2-to-hit are the reapers *twice* as good at shooting. Which are very rare, and rarely army-wide.

Might have something to do with paying 3x the amount for the model using the same heavy weapon and not being 3x as effective, or maybe seeing units that do something extremely similar for a fraction of the cost?

Yvraine is generalyl considered a tax.

How are you paying 3x for a ML Dev than a Reaper? Are you buying each squad a Land Raider?

What would you say if the comparisons vs Marines were where you shot a ML the stratagem and cherub, and the others at a Falcon in the open, with Roboute Gilleman standing right next to them?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

There was a lot of counterplay in list building and deployment. Set up zone where they can not deepstrike.

Except the beta rules does not stop some form of first turn charges. (Raven guards, alpha legion).

I also do not see the semqntic difference between loosing to deep strikers turn 1, and lascannons turn 1.

In an ideal world, you would have good terrain rules so that lascannons couldn't see/hurt/target/whatever your units.
GW's ... questionably mediocre ... terrain rules in this case are making shooting a "point and click" that it really shouldn't be.

My biggest problem with how terrain works is that it benefits the units who need it the least and is basically useless for those who need it the most.

Bharring wrote:
Yvraine is generalyl considered a tax.

How are you paying 3x for a ML Dev than a Reaper? Are you buying each squad a Land Raider?

What would you say if the comparisons vs Marines were where you shot a ML the stratagem and cherub, and the others at a Falcon in the open, with Roboute Gilleman standing right next to them?

Sorry in my head I was referring to a guardsmen but I didn't say that.

And to the ML stratagem, at most if I roll well I'm doing 6 mortal wounds. Did I just blow your mind?

Well, depends what your'e shooting at.

My point was that if you look at reapers as Forwarned + Phoenix + Guide + Doom + Jinx + Fire & Fade + Serpent .... vs Devs w/o support, it's clearly onesided.

CWE certainly have better stratagems and psykers, but Devs have stratagems and pskers and support characters too.


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That 6MW is a great point of comparision - if I said that a ML Dev had 6MW and a Reaper can do at most 3 non-mortals with his Krak-equivelent, wouldn't that be misleading?

Bharring wrote:
Yvraine is generalyl considered a tax.

How are you paying 3x for a ML Dev than a Reaper? Are you buying each squad a Land Raider?

What would you say if the comparisons vs Marines were where you shot a ML the stratagem and cherub, and the others at a Falcon in the open, with Roboute Gilleman standing right next to them?

Yvraine is 132 points, is extremely durable with a 4++ and wound leaching, allows a unit to shoot twice in one turn, or a different soulburst action like move twice, has a re roll 1's psychic buff, smite, and is even decent if caught in combat. I personally never view as a tax, rather an amazing force multiplier.

 lolman1c wrote:
I have no idea how warlocks and stuff play because I'm an Ork player but when I saw those nerfs I was like "Wtf? Who even complained about Warlocks?!"

Worst unit in the codex pre nerf. Now - still the worst unit in the codex lol.


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 fraser1191 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Yvraine is generalyl considered a tax.

How are you paying 3x for a ML Dev than a Reaper? Are you buying each squad a Land Raider?

What would you say if the comparisons vs Marines were where you shot a ML the stratagem and cherub, and the others at a Falcon in the open, with Roboute Gilleman standing right next to them?

Sorry in my head I was referring to a guardsmen but I didn't say that.

And to the ML stratagem, at most if I roll well I'm doing 6 mortal wounds. Did I just blow your mind?

Pretty sure it's max 3 mortal wounds and only vs a flyer - how do you get 6?

Warlocks are so bad because Spiritseers are so much better.

SpiritSeers got nerfed too.

Or did you think Protect/Quicken/Conceal were the weakest things in the CWE codex?


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You can now use Cherub to fire twice on the model that uses the stratagem - per FAQ.

But obviously that didn't happen, because obviously Marines weren't helped at all by the FAQ...

Bharring wrote:
Well, depends what your'e shooting at.

My point was that if you look at reapers as Forwarned + Phoenix + Guide + Doom + Jinx + Fire & Fade + Serpent .... vs Devs w/o support, it's clearly onesided.

CWE certainly have better stratagems and psykers, but Devs have stratagems and pskers and support characters too.


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That 6MW is a great point of comparision - if I said that a ML Dev had 6MW and a Reaper can do at most 3 non-mortals with his Krak-equivelent, wouldn't that be misleading?

Okay bear with me here.
How many psychic powers do vanilla Marines have to buff Devs? 0 (but arguably you could say Tigurius' -1 to hit)
How many stratagems do Devs have to help them? 2. Hellfire and Flakk. (Scions of Guilliman as well, but according to you I must use my best support units/abilities, Guilliman, that's now 400 pts of support so far)

So just for funsies yes, Dev shooting at dark reapers using Hellfire shells plus a cherub( rolling well) can do 6 MW. Potentially just killing the squad. So that's a 23pt model( marine with HB) with 405pts (RG and cherub) of support to do 6 MW or 204pts of damage.

But that's in a void, no one plays in a void.

I have a gut feeling most Eldar players would use the advantage of having no move penalty to start in cover or in a vehicle if they needed to reposition, I would.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I have no idea how warlocks and stuff play because I'm an Ork player but when I saw those nerfs I was like "Wtf? Who even complained about Warlocks?!"

Worst unit in the codex pre nerf. Now - still the worst unit in the codex lol.


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 fraser1191 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Yvraine is generalyl considered a tax.

How are you paying 3x for a ML Dev than a Reaper? Are you buying each squad a Land Raider?

What would you say if the comparisons vs Marines were where you shot a ML the stratagem and cherub, and the others at a Falcon in the open, with Roboute Gilleman standing right next to them?

Sorry in my head I was referring to a guardsmen but I didn't say that.

And to the ML stratagem, at most if I roll well I'm doing 6 mortal wounds. Did I just blow your mind?

Pretty sure it's max 3 mortal wounds and only vs a flyer - how do you get 6?

You're right Flakk can only be used against something with Fly.
But six is with the Dev cherub to fire twice

The flak missile stratagem says specifically that you can only make 1 to hit roll though. Wont that prevent you from using it on the second shot with cherub?

Null Zone doesn't improve Dev performance? My Devs hate Invulns. Granted, Null Zone isn't the greatest power, and doesn't synergise with Devs particularly well. Just pointing out that it's easy to forget and think that SM have 0 powers to help.

Only counting stratagems that are specifically aimed at Devs? 2. Only counting stratagems that are specifically aimed at Reapers? 1. Or is there a reason other stratagems in the SM book can't be used on Devs just like other stratagems in the CWE book can be used on Reapers?

Oh, my point with that last line *was* to be rediculous. To show that you can make it 1-sided either way. I certainly don't deny that CWE have better stratagems/pskers than SM. But comparisons where CWE get all that stuff and SM don't is just as bunk as the reverse.

I'm sure the 'start out of LOS then move into firing positions' gets used. I use it. It's nice to either be out of LOS or have a cover save, and not get the -1-to-hit that Devs would get doing the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xeno,
I agree that that was correct. But didn't the FAQ change that?

The -2 is common. Moving -1, flyer/RG/altoric/tiggarius -1.

LOL @ Dev strats/psychic powers. This is probably why I think Reapers should be like 60 points each (which is not reasonable) because of such good synergies and admittedly a significant amount of my salt comes from the terrible marine strats/powers.

The SM support characters are important, the captain and lt are vital to the ability of anything marine but they cost as much as yvranne and don't double the firepower of a unit, movement of another and melee of a third.

Regardless, it appears that you don't think 37 points is the right spot and could be convinced that 40-45 is a better one. I tend to think that they are 30-50% better than their current cost so I could be convinced to get into the 45-50 ppm camp so really we are not that far apart.

At their current cost I can't run RG or flyers because I expect to see too many reapers (local meta had 3-4 armies out of 16 that are eldar that run 27ish reapers and that was back right when the codex cropped) I don't think the price change is going to bother these lists.

This failed nerf with the nerf to deepstriking armies (which buffs eldar gunlines) just strikes me as completely whiffing but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I'm also disappointed that SS didn't get touched but that's another subject...

Just chekced FAQ - looks like it does work with cherub now. My marines have been on the shelf for a long time.

Honestly. That sounds pretty good. Though I am not exactly sure how they reached that answer - looks like an obvious mistake when you read the stratagem.

 fraser1191 wrote:


Okay bear with me here.
How many psychic powers do vanilla Marines have to buff Devs? 0 (but arguably you could say Tigurius' -1 to hit)
How many stratagems do Devs have to help them? 2. Hellfire and Flakk. (Scions of Guilliman as well, but according to you I must use my best support units/abilities, Guilliman, that's now 400 pts of support so far)

So just for funsies yes, Dev shooting at dark reapers using Hellfire shells plus a cherub( rolling well) can do 6 MW. Potentially just killing the squad. So that's a 23pt model( marine with HB) with 405pts (RG and cherub) of support to do 6 MW or 204pts of damage.

But that's in a void, no one plays in a void.

I have a gut feeling most Eldar players would use the advantage of having no move penalty to start in cover or in a vehicle if they needed to reposition, I would.

So the eldar army has buffs that can be put on Dark Reapers. Many of those buffs are psychic powers. Which means that the eldar player has to pay for the psyker. Sure space marines don't have equivalent buffs, but the 55pts an eldar player paid for a Warlock are points that weren't paid for something else. It's not like they're free or anything. So, leave buffs out of your comparison.


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bananathug wrote:
.

LOL @ Dev strats/psychic powers. This is probably why I think Reapers should be like 60 points each (which is not reasonable) because of such good synergies and admittedly a significant amount of my salt comes from the terrible marine strats/powers.

If an eldar player is going to pay for psychic buffs in their units, then the psykers who cast them need to be free. It's stupid to charge them twice. Hell, if you start charging for buffs in units, there's a very good chance that the eldar player is paying 3-5 times as much, seeing as there's a cap on how many psykers they can take.

Yvranne is likely to double the firepower of a unit. A little under half the time, it's the power you're CP-ing to reroll (and thus not CPing other powers), as you need a natural 7+. And a little less than a quarter of the time, you burn the CP and still don't get it.

The SM support characters are auras. They effect every unit in range - so more than one. They don't risk failing. They don't risk hurting themselves (rarely). They don't cost CP to be reasonably reliable. They don't cost you your SM Tactics.

Don't get me wrong, Yvraine still seems good in comparison. But the SM support characters have lots of things Yvraine doesn't have.

Generally, I think most of us agree any price below 35ppm or above 50ppm would be wrong.

I wish there were more reason to need different profiles in the game. I love seeing a 3-5man Reaper squad. I hate seeing 3 squads. I hate seeing 10mans. Similarly, I love seeing a Dev squad or two. I hate seeing 3x5man Devs or 0 Devs in a list. But obviously, the rules don't support that.

SS *did* get touched, just indirectly. Can't WWP/Quicken. Quicken casters got points bumps. Ynnari got a nerf. Not sure if the change was enough, though.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The flak missile stratagem says specifically that you can only make 1 to hit roll though. Wont that prevent you from using it on the second shot with cherub?

No they actually FAQd that so you can buy the cherub and basically use the stratagem twice, it's a silver lining to this "big" faq