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 Red__Thirst wrote:
It's Upon Wings of Fire, correction on the name, and also it's not at the end of the movement phase, but before moving a jump pack unit on the table.
Here's the exact wording:



Gate of infinity has a similar wording regarding being set up.

Here's the new deployment rules from the Community page.



Now a couple of key things to note here.

In the second paragraph it specifically notes the unit as Arriving on the tabletop and deploying those units (not setting up, deploying), meaning they have not been placed on the tabletop previously as units using GoI or Upon Wings of Fire both must be to use the psychic power or stratagem.

Also, the statement regarding the third paragraph noting that any units not deployed from reserve by the end of turn 3 are destroyed, and if using GoI or UWoF stratagem places units in reserve as some argue it would mean they are destroyed immediately if either is used. That's pants-on-head stupid if you're arguing that. They're abilities that allow for limited (one unit) additional movement and don't violate the new beta rule.

An example using the UWoF Strat.

-I use Forlorn Fury stratagem before the first turn of the game starts to move+advance my Death Company across the board. Then the game starts and the DC move a second time, landing within ~6" of an enemy unit.
-I then, in my movement phase prior to moving the model, use the Upon Wings of Fire stratagem to pick up my Lemartes model that had been deployed already and place it within 6" of the Death Company that already moved previously in the movement phase and also keep the model outside of 9" of any enemy models as well.

This does not violate the beta rules. Gate of infinity doesn't either. You can only target a single unit with it.

Just my view on it. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

The only problem with it is that with only one unit going up the table that unit will problem be dead by the end of the opponent turn( unless you are advancing a unit so worthless that it doesn’t metter, which is highly unlikely)

This is the big problem for the "UWoF/GoI/Da Jump isn't reinforcements" argument, from p. 6 of the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

Emphasis mine. Seems pretty cut-and-dried, sadly.

"As if they are" and actually are, these are two very different things.

"As if they are" allows for stratagems like Ausex Scan or similar abilities to interact with the unit unit being teleported/moved on the tabletop. It doesn't mean they go into Reserves/Reinforcements.

Just my opinion. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-.

How would you go about making a case for them not being treated exactly the same as a unit arriving as reinforcements? What criteria would you use to determine the ways in which they are treated the same (e.g. Auspex Scan), and the ways in which they are treated differently (e.g. not restricted to the deployment zone)?

I don't think they actually go into reserves either - but the rule requires that you treat them as though that's what's happening. I don't really see how you can pick and choose which "arriving as reinforcements" rules you apply and which you don't.

If you want to continue talking about Preds - especially Preds vs Prisms - you should really start a new thread.

Something like 'Do you need 4+ Preds to get any value out of Killshot' was the original question.

(I actually own only 1 Prism, because I find players enjoy the "One box of anything but troops/transports" army list more than "Spam this one thing plus tax". Same reason I only own 1 Pred. But lots of Tacs, Rhinos, and Razorbacks.)

 kadeton wrote:
How would you go about making a case for them not being treated exactly the same as a unit arriving as reinforcements? What criteria would you use to determine the ways in which they are treated the same (e.g. Auspex Scan), and the ways in which they are treated differently (e.g. not restricted to the deployment zone)?

I don't think they actually go into reserves either - but the rule requires that you treat them as though that's what's happening. I don't really see how you can pick and choose which "arriving as reinforcements" rules you apply and which you don't.

There is precedence that the word " arrives" refers to the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield in regards to the Tactical Reserves rule:

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.

That is from the FAQ for Index: Xenos 1. So there appears to be a state already that does not use all the reinforcement rules even for units that sped more than a few seconds off the table. The use of the word "arrives" in the beta rules seems to be important, and that FAQ answer shows that a unit has already arrived on the battlefield as long as they have been deployed previously. That is what would have happened in the case of GoI or Shunt.

But that's for knife-ears. Obviously, for IOM, the rules are auto-destroyed!

(Kidding - great find, thanks!)

That's a rule about being destroyed after Turn 3. That doesn't apply to a unit that you relocate... but you still have to treat them as arriving from reinforcements every time you relocate them. Just like you'd treat the Swooping Hawks as arriving from reinforcements when you place them back on the table.

Editing, because this is becoming a really common conflation: A unit that's relocated doesn't go into reserves! It doesn't have to worry about being destroyed after turn 3, because it's not in reserves. It just has to follow all the same rules and restrictions as a unit arriving from reserves when you put it back on the table.

I will be using that interpretation, makes sense specially because it would be idiotic GoI and Interceptor shunts being only usable on turn 2.
Rebasing my lists around inceptors now with GoI GMDK

Freezerassasin wrote:

 kadeton wrote:
How would you go about making a case for them not being treated exactly the same as a unit arriving as reinforcements? What criteria would you use to determine the ways in which they are treated the same (e.g. Auspex Scan), and the ways in which they are treated differently (e.g. not restricted to the deployment zone)?

I don't think they actually go into reserves either - but the rule requires that you treat them as though that's what's happening. I don't really see how you can pick and choose which "arriving as reinforcements" rules you apply and which you don't.

There is precedence that the word " arrives" refers to the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield in regards to the Tactical Reserves rule:

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.

That is from the FAQ for Index: Xenos 1. So there appears to be a state already that does not use all the reinforcement rules even for units that sped more than a few seconds off the table. The use of the word "arrives" in the beta rules seems to be important, and that FAQ answer shows that a unit has already arrived on the battlefield as long as they have been deployed previously. That is what would have happened in the case of GoI or Shunt.

That is Tactical Reserves not Reinforcements. They are NOT the same.

I'm carrying a post over from another thread to here, but it's very relevant. Thoughts?

DarthDiggler wrote:
On page 172 of my digital edition it says every GK psykers gains Brotherhood of Psykers so every single one of them, including characters, smites on a 5.

I know I’m going to get attacked for this, but just in case someone with an open mind is reading.......

I think the reason people have trouble winning with GK is because they are deep striking turn 1. Why would you deep strike when the enemy screens are still up?

GK can’t screen the enemy so no DS T1 and no movement out of DS helps GK much more than it hurts them. Your backfield will be safe T1 as long as you have LOS blocking terrain.

Horde lists took a hit with the lose of poxwalkers and Tide of Traitors only allowed to be used once. Less horde helps GK.

Shining Spears will not be able to deploy out of DS, soul burst and assault. That helps GK.

Dark Reapers are more expensive and won’t be able to Fire and Fade into a Wave Serpent. That helps GK.

Fire Raptors are 90pts more. That helps GK.

Tyrant Spam is gone. That helps GK.

GK can still charge T2 with a reroll from the Warlord trait after the enemy army has spread out. They didn’t spread out? Then who cares if you can’t DS T1.

As long as you can hide a Rhino(s) size T1 you should survive T1 and use smoke to move up, then drop on T2 freely. Remember Scions aren’t coming down T1. Obliterators aren’t coming down T1. You don’t need to come down to kill Poxwalkers before they get their abilities up.

I’m not saying you will roll up to the table with GK and sleepwalk through 5 wins, but the competitive separation has definitely been shrunk because of what other armies can’t do anymore.

fe40k wrote:
Grey Knights aren't dead; 40k is dead.

It's that simple - go Astra Militarum gunline, or go home.

And in less than 12 months with a FULL RESET.

THIS IS THE EDITION WE ASKED FOR!!!!!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm carrying a post over from another thread to here, but it's very relevant. Thoughts?

DarthDiggler wrote:
On page 172 of my digital edition it says every GK psykers gains Brotherhood of Psykers so every single one of them, including characters, smites on a 5.

I know I’m going to get attacked for this, but just in case someone with an open mind is reading.......

I think the reason people have trouble winning with GK is because they are deep striking turn 1. Why would you deep strike when the enemy screens are still up?

GK can’t screen the enemy so no DS T1 and no movement out of DS helps GK much more than it hurts them. Your backfield will be safe T1 as long as you have LOS blocking terrain.

Horde lists took a hit with the lose of poxwalkers and Tide of Traitors only allowed to be used once. Less horde helps GK.

Shining Spears will not be able to deploy out of DS, soul burst and assault. That helps GK.

Dark Reapers are more expensive and won’t be able to Fire and Fade into a Wave Serpent. That helps GK.

Fire Raptors are 90pts more. That helps GK.

Tyrant Spam is gone. That helps GK.

GK can still charge T2 with a reroll from the Warlord trait after the enemy army has spread out. They didn’t spread out? Then who cares if you can’t DS T1.

As long as you can hide a Rhino(s) size T1 you should survive T1 and use smoke to move up, then drop on T2 freely. Remember Scions aren’t coming down T1. Obliterators aren’t coming down T1. You don’t need to come down to kill Poxwalkers before they get their abilities up.

I’m not saying you will roll up to the table with GK and sleepwalk through 5 wins, but the competitive separation has definitely been shrunk because of what other armies can’t do anymore.

This list is laughable. It just shows how far behind gk were but also highlights just how stupidly out of whack 8th has become in less than 12 months.

Audustum wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

 kadeton wrote:
How would you go about making a case for them not being treated exactly the same as a unit arriving as reinforcements? What criteria would you use to determine the ways in which they are treated the same (e.g. Auspex Scan), and the ways in which they are treated differently (e.g. not restricted to the deployment zone)?

I don't think they actually go into reserves either - but the rule requires that you treat them as though that's what's happening. I don't really see how you can pick and choose which "arriving as reinforcements" rules you apply and which you don't.

There is precedence that the word " arrives" refers to the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield in regards to the Tactical Reserves rule:

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.

That is from the FAQ for Index: Xenos 1. So there appears to be a state already that does not use all the reinforcement rules even for units that sped more than a few seconds off the table. The use of the word "arrives" in the beta rules seems to be important, and that FAQ answer shows that a unit has already arrived on the battlefield as long as they have been deployed previously. That is what would have happened in the case of GoI or Shunt.

That is Tactical Reserves not Reinforcements. They are NOT the same.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults
unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn
begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.

The rule you are claiming stops GoI and Shunting IS the Tactical Reserve Rule. The destroyed after turn 3 and these restrictions are part of the same rule. They both refer to units arriving on the battle field. We have evidence that arriving is the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield, not everytime it is set up. This is all I need to feel comfortable that this is RAI with enough RAW support.

I won't convince you of this clearly. You can use any interpretation you want until this gets an official answer. I have emailed GW to get one, and I hope everyone else does instead of moping around or getting pointlessly angry with each other.

Freezerassasin wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

 kadeton wrote:
How would you go about making a case for them not being treated exactly the same as a unit arriving as reinforcements? What criteria would you use to determine the ways in which they are treated the same (e.g. Auspex Scan), and the ways in which they are treated differently (e.g. not restricted to the deployment zone)?

I don't think they actually go into reserves either - but the rule requires that you treat them as though that's what's happening. I don't really see how you can pick and choose which "arriving as reinforcements" rules you apply and which you don't.

There is precedence that the word " arrives" refers to the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield in regards to the Tactical Reserves rule:

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.

That is from the FAQ for Index: Xenos 1. So there appears to be a state already that does not use all the reinforcement rules even for units that sped more than a few seconds off the table. The use of the word "arrives" in the beta rules seems to be important, and that FAQ answer shows that a unit has already arrived on the battlefield as long as they have been deployed previously. That is what would have happened in the case of GoI or Shunt.

That is Tactical Reserves not Reinforcements. They are NOT the same.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults
unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn
begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.

The rule you are claiming stops GoI and Shunting IS the Tactical Reserve Rule. The destroyed after turn 3 and these restrictions are part of the same rule. They both refer to units arriving on the battle field. We have evidence that arriving is the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield, not everytime it is set up. This is all I need to feel comfortable that this is RAI with enough RAW support.

I won't convince you of this clearly. You can use any interpretation you want until this gets an official answer. I have emailed GW to get one, and I hope everyone else does instead of moping around or getting pointlessly angry with each other.

No, no it's not the rule I'm claiming. The rule I'm claiming is on pg. 177 of the Rulebook. This is also the rule that gives you a -1 to Hit on your GMDK's after using Gate.

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlfield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot mvoe or Advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, e.t.c.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has nt arrived on the battlefield by the end f the battle counts as having been destroyed.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
It's Upon Wings of Fire, correction on the name, and also it's not at the end of the movement phase, but before moving a jump pack unit on the table.
Here's the exact wording:



Gate of infinity has a similar wording regarding being set up.

Here's the new deployment rules from the Community page.



Now a couple of key things to note here.

In the second paragraph it specifically notes the unit as Arriving on the tabletop and deploying those units (not setting up, deploying), meaning they have not been placed on the tabletop previously as units using GoI or Upon Wings of Fire both must be to use the psychic power or stratagem.

Also, the statement regarding the third paragraph noting that any units not deployed from reserve by the end of turn 3 are destroyed, and if using GoI or UWoF stratagem places units in reserve as some argue it would mean they are destroyed immediately if either is used. That's pants-on-head stupid if you're arguing that. They're abilities that allow for limited (one unit) additional movement and don't violate the new beta rule.

An example using the UWoF Strat.

-I use Forlorn Fury stratagem before the first turn of the game starts to move+advance my Death Company across the board. Then the game starts and the DC move a second time, landing within ~6" of an enemy unit.
-I then, in my movement phase prior to moving the model, use the Upon Wings of Fire stratagem to pick up my Lemartes model that had been deployed already and place it within 6" of the Death Company that already moved previously in the movement phase and also keep the model outside of 9" of any enemy models as well.

This does not violate the beta rules. Gate of infinity doesn't either. You can only target a single unit with it.

Just my view on it. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

^ this

A very good interpretation of the faq rules, backed up by actual rules quotes.

Pancakey wrote:


This list is laughable. It just shows how far behind gk were but also highlights just how stupidly out of whack 8th has become in less than 12 months.

k

Thanks for that useful input and repetitious comment you'll continue to sling in response to any post for the next 3 weeks.

Freezerassasin wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Freezerassasin wrote:

 kadeton wrote:
How would you go about making a case for them not being treated exactly the same as a unit arriving as reinforcements? What criteria would you use to determine the ways in which they are treated the same (e.g. Auspex Scan), and the ways in which they are treated differently (e.g. not restricted to the deployment zone)?

I don't think they actually go into reserves either - but the rule requires that you treat them as though that's what's happening. I don't really see how you can pick and choose which "arriving as reinforcements" rules you apply and which you don't.

There is precedence that the word " arrives" refers to the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield in regards to the Tactical Reserves rule:

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.

That is from the FAQ for Index: Xenos 1. So there appears to be a state already that does not use all the reinforcement rules even for units that sped more than a few seconds off the table. The use of the word "arrives" in the beta rules seems to be important, and that FAQ answer shows that a unit has already arrived on the battlefield as long as they have been deployed previously. That is what would have happened in the case of GoI or Shunt.

That is Tactical Reserves not Reinforcements. They are NOT the same.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults
unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn
begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.

The rule you are claiming stops GoI and Shunting IS the Tactical Reserve Rule. The destroyed after turn 3 and these restrictions are part of the same rule. They both refer to units arriving on the battle field. We have evidence that arriving is the first time a unit is set up on the battlefield, not everytime it is set up. This is all I need to feel comfortable that this is RAI with enough RAW support.

I won't convince you of this clearly. You can use any interpretation you want until this gets an official answer. I have emailed GW to get one, and I hope everyone else does instead of moping around or getting pointlessly angry with each other.

My only problem with this interpretation is the fact that in the actual faq rule it mentions units being deployed from elsewhere (teleportariums, high orbit, etc). If a unit is already deployed on the battlefield how does "Tactical Reserves" affect them?

We have a similar discussion going on in the Ork thread.

For those who believe that Gate of Infinity or Upon Wings of Fire etc must adhere to the beta Tactical Reserves rule consider these points;

1. When embarked in a transport the units are "removed from the battlefield". Does that mean they are destroyed in turn 4 if they haven't disembarked or if they embark? Does it also mean that units can't disembark outside of their deployment zone turn 1?
2. With regards to certain FAQ answers - please be aware that these responses only relate to their particular question. You cannot and should not infer other meanings from them unless they are explicitly stated. The FAQ response around Auspex Scan for example does not prove that unit's moved by a psychic power are Tactical Reserves, only that they can be shot by Auspex Scan. The same applies to the ruling on Heavy Weapons, this only tells us how firing heavy weapons interacts with such movement and nothing else.
3. As per another question in the FAQ, if a unit has a psychic power cast on it, it must, by definition, have already arrived on the battlefield (or the power could not be cast).

GK players - keep calm and slay daemons until a clarification is made available. Anyone with a lick of common sense would allow you to use GOI to move within charge distance. GW will sort it.

Personally, I don't think GK are 'dead'. In fact I think this FAQ helped them.

^ Listen to this ork, he says smart things

Actually you don't want to kill daemons with GK. Weaken them with GK, then kill with something other than GK. Or the daemons just come back.

Further, putting units in deep strike based on points versus model count is a disaster for GK.

This FAQ was a nail in the coffin for GK. They aren't even viable in a soup based scenario. You could bring a patrol with a GMNDK so you could Gate the GMNDK turn 1 if indeed that's how it works, but do you really want to lose 300 points just to say you did a turn 1 DS?

A smart greenskin? Isn't that an Orksimoron?

Orkimedes at yerr service ladz! I gotz da squiggly bitz, da best gubbinz an all da dakka ya could eva need!

 Marmatag wrote:

Further, putting units in deep strike based on points versus model count is a disaster for GK.

Maybe, but it's an overall solid change for the game.

This FAQ was a nail in the coffin for GK.

Still a little premature for that. They're not going to suddenly take #1 at a tournament, of course.

I concur with your analysis Red__Thirst. You articulated what I was trying to say in a much more concise and superior way lol.

 Marmatag wrote:
Actually you don't want to kill daemons with GK. Weaken them with GK, then kill with something other than GK. Or the daemons just come back.

Further, putting units in deep strike based on points versus model count is a disaster for GK.

This FAQ was a nail in the coffin for GK. They aren't even viable in a soup based scenario. You could bring a patrol with a GMNDK so you could Gate the GMNDK turn 1 if indeed that's how it works, but do you really want to lose 300 points just to say you did a turn 1 DS?

See, I thought the daemon strategem was the final nail in the coffin for them. If nothing else, GW has proven endlessly capable of finding new places in the coffin to practice their nail driving techniques.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
1. When embarked in a transport the units are "removed from the battlefield". Does that mean they are destroyed in turn 4 if they haven't disembarked or if they embark? Does it also mean that units can't disembark outside of their deployment zone turn 1?

No. Embarking in a transport is not the same as going into tactical reserves, and nothing tells you to treat it like going into tactical reserves. There's no reason to apply the tactical reserves rule to transports, or any other effect that removes units from the battlefield, unless you're specifically told to treat those units like they're going into tactical reserves.

It's worth noting that relocation effects that remove a unit and place it somewhere else are also not putting that unit into tactical reserves. All that you're told to do is apply the same restrictions when placing them. Being destroyed after turn 3 is not part of the placement restrictions.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
2. With regards to certain FAQ answers - please be aware that these responses only relate to their particular question. You cannot and should not infer other meanings from them unless they are explicitly stated. The FAQ response around Auspex Scan for example does not prove that unit's moved by a psychic power are Tactical Reserves, only that they can be shot by Auspex Scan. The same applies to the ruling on Heavy Weapons, this only tells us how firing heavy weapons interacts with such movement and nothing else.
3. As per another question in the FAQ, if a unit has a psychic power cast on it, it must, by definition, have already arrived on the battlefield (or the power could not be cast).

I mean... do you even hear yourself? You literally just said "You cannot and should not infer other meanings from [FAQ rulings]," and then said "As per another question in the FAQ..."

So which is it? Are we referencing other questions that tell you how to treat these units in similar situations, or not? You can't just pick and choose the FAQs that you agree with to support your argument, and ignore the ones that clearly and unambiguously contradict it.

Yes the ha knights are dead
Thank slaanesh for that
Even thousand sons do the GK KOB netter than the GK
Time to put the GKs in a retirement home

I’m sure Reece will be around soon to tell us that we just haven’t been playing the army right and this beta rule actually helps GK because other armies can’t deepstrike on us.

 kadeton wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
1. When embarked in a transport the units are "removed from the battlefield". Does that mean they are destroyed in turn 4 if they haven't disembarked or if they embark? Does it also mean that units can't disembark outside of their deployment zone turn 1?

No. Embarking in a transport is not the same as going into tactical reserves, and nothing tells you to treat it like going into tactical reserves. There's no reason to apply the tactical reserves rule to transports, or any other effect that removes units from the battlefield, unless you're specifically told to treat those units like they're going into tactical reserves.

It's worth noting that relocation effects that remove a unit and place it somewhere else are also not putting that unit into tactical reserves. All that you're told to do is apply the same restrictions when placing them. Being destroyed after turn 3 is not part of the placement restrictions.

You treat them like tactical reserves for some rules but not others, got it. You're told to apply those rules with regards firing heavy weapons only. That's what the FAQ tells you. Nothing more.

 kadeton wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
2. With regards to certain FAQ answers - please be aware that these responses only relate to their particular question. You cannot and should not infer other meanings from them unless they are explicitly stated. The FAQ response around Auspex Scan for example does not prove that unit's moved by a psychic power are Tactical Reserves, only that they can be shot by Auspex Scan. The same applies to the ruling on Heavy Weapons, this only tells us how firing heavy weapons interacts with such movement and nothing else.
3. As per another question in the FAQ, if a unit has a psychic power cast on it, it must, by definition, have already arrived on the battlefield (or the power could not be cast).

I mean... do you even hear yourself? You literally just said "You cannot and should not infer other meanings from [FAQ rulings]," and then said "As per another question in the FAQ..."

So which is it? Are we referencing other questions that tell you how to treat these units in similar situations, or not? You can't just pick and choose the FAQs that you agree with to support your argument, and ignore the ones that clearly and unambiguously contradict it.

Well where I reference the FAQ it is in direct response to a question that explicitly and clearly answers something. I'm not inferring meaning from this and using it for something else. It quite literally says that you can only cast a power on a unit that is already on the board. I'm not taking this to mean anything but that. If a unit is on the board is it in tactical reserves? Really? I'll let you make your own mind.

Can't wait for that ruling though.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I’m sure Reece will be around soon to tell us that we just haven’t been playing the army right and this beta rule actually helps GK because other armies can’t deepstrike on us.

I see Reece is the new Matt Ward. Always need that boogeyman!