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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 deviantduck wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
You left 2 predators out of cover against guard?

Edit: Also, fully decked predators are the definition of a good target. They are one of the most glass cannony model in the game.
This comment leads me to believe you think cover does something this edition. Guns that kill tanks have AP to negate cover.


I suggest that you go back to reading what cover does in this edition. A predator requires 442 points of catachan manticores to be taken out, which rises to 590 if it is in cover. Please state your definition of "Negate".
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




There didn't happen to be any terrain features that a tank fit *in*, only things to hide behind and for infantry to climb on.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Martel732 wrote:
So advice for non-raven guard? Other than play ravenguard?


If you are playing competitive lists you need to do the same. Which for imperium means soup. But sure for BA I’d take a bunch of scouts, and a DC squad (chainswords and bolters) use those to turn 1 screen clear (maybe also use scout bikes). Then bring in sanguinary guard and characters from reserve and start assaulting tanks. It would likely be better to have raven guard as your on table starting (minus DC), or just guard. But if you want to go pure that is where I would look.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tanks don't have to fit in, they just need to have a peeble under a track. Same as 7th "toe in cover" rule.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Dark Eldar HQ issues are highly overblown. One of your HQs can be Yvraine, one can be the nicely efficient Writ archon, who has captain+Lieutenant buff for 72pts, that sorts out one battalion (your ravagers+whatever you want to be Ynnari). Two succubi are only 100pts total, that gets you into a wych cult battalion, and Urien+Vexator Mask haemonculus gets you into a Coven battalion highly efficiently as well.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules as infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
So advice for non-raven guard? Other than play ravenguard?


If you are playing competitive lists you need to do the same. Which for imperium means soup. But sure for BA I’d take a bunch of scouts, and a DC squad (chainswords and bolters) use those to turn 1 screen clear (maybe also use scout bikes). Then bring in sanguinary guard and characters from reserve and start assaulting tanks. It would likely be better to have raven guard as your on table starting (minus DC), or just guard. But if you want to go pure that is where I would look.


I've thought about that, but the FAQ killed my intended soup list. I'll need to purchase 50 PL of IG to DS 50 PL of BA, which is only about 2-3 squads and 2 characters. Ugh.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:34:00


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Martel732 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.

I've been practically tabled in a single turn before - DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME?


You see, I ask, with the list I posted earlier there, because I do not see how the firepower of that list poses any kind of credible threat to tabling a competitive dark eldar list in any reasonable number of turns.

Assuming the scenario you just outlined occurs - I go second (which is less than half the time, I will always have +1 on the roll vs guard because..anyone would, really) - and the basilisks and mortars decide to attack my Reavers, they kill 8. Assuming I don't use the stratagem I have to make them -1 to hit, or have them in cover. 8/12 die, which definitely sorts out the unit. To 100% of the basilisks and mortars, i.e. all the upfront firepower the list has. The Shadowsword basically wipes a Ravager per turn its alive, that's the best target I have on the board for it. I assume it doesn't want to shoot at my RWJFs and risk hitting on 5s AND a 5++ invuln giving it unlucky rolls.

A ravager and 8 bikes does not seem like devastating, game-breaking upfront firepower.


Drukhari have much better units for 8th ed than marines. This much is patently obvious to me. Raiders are the perfect transport because of cost/invuln/open top/movement. T5 is actually largely irrelevant.


So, guard are broken, OP, ridiculously disgusting and nobody can beat them....

Except for Alaitoc CWE which is also broken...

Except for DE which is also broken...

Anyone else also broken? Shall we fill out the list of "exactly the same armies who were also in the meta before the beta change"?


Admittedly, it's looking like more a marine problem. I find Alaitoc Eldar the easiest of those three, because their models are the most expensive. To me, there's a direct correlation with how cheap your average model is this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Well taking marine vehicles is bad right now so I would advise against doing so their generally bad. Other than maybe the Razorback. Big models die too easily in this edition.


So now we start qualifying it. Oh, marine vehicles are bad. Tell me how my 13 pt spankers and 18 pt spankers are so much better.


They are more resilient to heavy weapons, easier to get in cover? Get chapter tactics, for BA can get FNP... a pred can die to 2 shots, the same points of marines never do the same.


Said marines also don't do anything meaningful in the game for their cost.


They live and score objectives which is more than 2 dead press ever contribute. I also never said you should load up on tacticals as a replacement, just hat press are bad.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






That is correct martel.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.


But the tank still isn't in a terrain feature. So no cover. Even if out of LoS, the tank still has to be 100% in a terrain feature.

" I also never said you should load up on tacticals"

AT this point, I contend every power armor marine model is basically bad. 6 pt kalabites. Need I say more?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:35:51


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.

wrong - your own models do not count.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




These debates always get to extremes.

I think guard are good - but its exaggerated. Marines by contrast are mostly bad - which is a shame but there you are.

But if we are now claiming you should never kill more than 400 points then its just pointless. This is a "do you even play" moment. In the current meta if your army doesn't expect to kill 700-800 points in the first turn on average dice then I'd question whether its any good.

The only way to avoid this was not putting that many points down on the table.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Tyel wrote:
These debates always get to extremes.

I think guard are good - but its exaggerated. Marines by contrast are mostly bad - which is a shame but there you are.

But if we are now claiming you should never kill more than 400 points then its just pointless. This is a "do you even play" moment. In the current meta if your army doesn't expect to kill 700-800 points in the first turn on average dice then I'd question whether its any good.

The only way to avoid this was not putting that many points down on the table.


Fair enough. This is why I was gonna start a bunch of valhallans on the board and DS all the BA. But nope, GW killed that.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.

wrong - your own models do not count.


Enemy models absolutely count towards 50% obscured from the perspective of the firing model. Friendly models do not. So, unless you're talking about a mortar team shooting you from out of LOS behind a friendly baneblade here..

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The tank still needs to be 100% in a terrain feature. Useless.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules as infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
So advice for non-raven guard? Other than play ravenguard?


If you are playing competitive lists you need to do the same. Which for imperium means soup. But sure for BA I’d take a bunch of scouts, and a DC squad (chainswords and bolters) use those to turn 1 screen clear (maybe also use scout bikes). Then bring in sanguinary guard and characters from reserve and start assaulting tanks. It would likely be better to have raven guard as your on table starting (minus DC), or just guard. But if you want to go pure that is where I would look.


I've thought about that, but the FAQ killed my intended soup list. I'll need to purchase 50 PL of IG to DS 50 PL of BA, which is only about 2-3 squads and 2 characters. Ugh.


That is a matter of gaming PL 6 scouts is 8 power. 3 of those squads and a starting DC squad is something like 42 power. So that is 2 10 man sanguinary guard squads. So guard need to cover any characters.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.

wrong - your own models do not count.


Enemy models absolutely count towards 50% obscured from the perspective of the firing model. Friendly models do not. So, unless you're talking about a mortar team shooting you from out of LOS behind a friendly baneblade here..


Wrong, everything counts, including friendly models. Those mortars would give cover.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I was hoping to get away from scouts. But evidently not.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
The tank still needs to be 100% in a terrain feature. Useless.


They have to be "Within a terrain feature", the same definition as infantry. So no, a peeble is enough.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Spoletta wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.

wrong - your own models do not count.


Enemy models absolutely count towards 50% obscured from the perspective of the firing model. Friendly models do not. So, unless you're talking about a mortar team shooting you from out of LOS behind a friendly baneblade here..


Wrong, everything counts, including friendly models. Those mortars would give cover.


Not if the tank wasn't in a terrain feature.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The tank still needs to be 100% in a terrain feature. Useless.


They have to be "Within a terrain feature", the same definition as infantry. So no, a peeble is enough.


Infantry must be completely within cover. Your post is contradictory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:45:57


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





The point is “in a terrain feature” literally means if half a tread is in the terrain the model is “in”
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The cover rules explicitly state "completely". Or perhaps "entirely".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:48:11


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





For a unit, any part of your “base” being on the cover counts as in cover. The entirety of the model need not be the rules require the unit to be wholly within cover, which means every model must be on the cover. A tank is only a single model.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Here, i'll just give you the FAQ or this will go on and on.

Q: Do units that are not Infantry (Vehicles, Monsters,
etc.) gain the benefit of cover from woods, ruins etc. if they are at
least 50% obscured by that piece of terrain but are not actually
on or within it?
A: No. Unless they are Infantry, such a unit must meet
the two following conditions to gain the benefit of cover:

• All of its models must be either on or within
the terrain.

• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point
of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is
obscuring the target, only that it is obscured).


Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?

A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every
model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long
as all the models in that unit are either on or partially
within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.


Any more doubts?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Okay. Great. But this also helps the IG get 2+ saves on all their 90 pt cheese tanks. Seems like a net loss, actually. There is just no getting around cheaper being better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:53:42


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Spoletta wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.

wrong - your own models do not count.


Enemy models absolutely count towards 50% obscured from the perspective of the firing model. Friendly models do not. So, unless you're talking about a mortar team shooting you from out of LOS behind a friendly baneblade here..


Wrong, everything counts, including friendly models. Those mortars would give cover.

Show me in the rules where it says intervening models give covers saves.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





This is spelled out in the second FAQ question in the brb faq

For example, units gain the bene t of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the bene t of cover.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Breng77 wrote:
This is spelled out in the second FAQ question in the brb faq

For example, units gain the bene t of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the bene t of cover.


Yeah, I get that now. This actually makes more sense for vehicles, but as I pointed out, that helps the IG get a LOT of cheap 2+.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Well that's refreshing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
This is spelled out in the second FAQ question in the brb faq

For example, units gain the bene t of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the bene t of cover.


Yeah, I get that now. This actually makes more sense for vehicles, but as I pointed out, that helps the IG get a LOT of cheap 2+.

That's gonna help everyone. The way it should have been all along. It's so great we are playing beta 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:58:38


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. They obey the same rules an infantry PLUS the 50% obscurement.


Indeed, but since predators have a low profile, you can just put a couple of marines in front of it and it's in cover.

Also, if he shoots from out of LOS you are automatically 50% obscured.

wrong - your own models do not count.


Enemy models absolutely count towards 50% obscured from the perspective of the firing model. Friendly models do not. So, unless you're talking about a mortar team shooting you from out of LOS behind a friendly baneblade here..


Wrong, everything counts, including friendly models. Those mortars would give cover.

Show me in the rules where it says intervening models give covers saves.


Ok, again:

• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point
of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is
obscuring the target, only that it is obscured
).

Yes Martel, this helps IG too (but is definitely something that helps assault more than shooting), but for them it's much harder. SM tanks have low profiles and big dudes, IG tanks have tall profiles and small dudes. They can't cover it easily, they need to put tanks one in front of each other.
   
 
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