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Gun lines work because people forgot transports exist.

No IG army is going to take down a proper mechanized marine force unless they go full anti armor.

And with the turn one nerf to scions they remain weak against a massed power armor rhino rush. Throw in counter deep striking or faster jump pack or biker scouts for the turn two drop.....

Without that at will plasma drop IG had this is not the one sided faq you are all making it out to be.

 sfshilo wrote:
Gun lines work because people forgot transports exist.

No IG army is going to take down a proper mechanized marine force unless they go full anti armor.

And with the turn one nerf to scions they remain weak against a massed power armor rhino rush. Throw in counter deep striking or faster jump pack or biker scouts for the turn two drop.....

Without that at will plasma drop IG had this is not the one sided faq you are all making it out to be.

They didn't forget them. They just are too expensive for what they bring. You are better off taking more guys and foot slog it.

I'm not convinced that gunlines are going to dominate post-FAQ. There are a couple of important things that have changed since the start of 8th that really hurt them.

1. "Gunlines" mostly just means "Guard", right? Their best long-range shooting is a lot weaker now than it used to be -- compare Earthshaker Platforms at the start of 8th to Russes or Basilisks now. And it's harder to spam mortars. And they can't also deep strike a bunch of plasma on turn 1. The only other gunline that's consistently put up respectable results is a Guilliman-based one, I think. Stuff like AdMech robots are scary on paper but in practice have never broken through.

2. There are lots of armies designed to punish gunlines. The game is very different post-Alatoic. Eldar (Craftworld and Dark, but especially Alatoic) are actually very good at playing this sort of mid-range game and beating gunlines while doing it. In general there are a lot more defensive options now. There are a number of factions with -1 to hit or at least 6+ FNP traits, and Tyranids (and Tau) have an always-in-cover option.

3. Some of the most vicious first turn alpha strike capability depends on infiltration, and this is untouched. Alpha Legion can still infiltrate a bunch of Berzerkers.

To my mind the standout unit post-FAQ is still just the basic Infantry Squad, and it's good not because it stands back and shoots but because it aggressively moves up the field and owns the board while protecting everything behind it. It's a durable, mid-range unit that's been wildly successful even pre-FAQ, and now looks even better relative to everything else (it helps that as soon as people find a unit with a cheap hurricane bolter it gets nerfed).

 sfshilo wrote:
Gun lines work because people forgot transports exist.

No IG army is going to take down a proper mechanized marine force unless they go full anti armor.

And with the turn one nerf to scions they remain weak against a massed power armor rhino rush. Throw in counter deep striking or faster jump pack or biker scouts for the turn two drop.....

Without that at will plasma drop IG had this is not the one sided faq you are all making it out to be.

Transports suck they are way too expensive and it's too easy to just cripple them into crawling along slower than the infantry they carry.

They are not the answer to gun lines.

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that reroll bubbles are even a thing is just impossibly stupid cockamamy nonsense.

This. A thousand times this. It's frustrating because I think GW got it right with Necrons: a smaller range on many abilities (3" instead of 6") and you have to target their most powerful buff to a single unit a turn. If all the current re-roll to hit auras worked like that I think things would be much better. I know this is only one very small part of the problem but I get so annoyed seeing entire armies hitting 90% of the time or better, then re-rolling 50% of their failed wound rolls too, all because of 1 or 2 characters. It makes the game feel completely non-interactive.

Spoletta wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
5th was hardly the most gunline edition ever, issues existed, but it wasn't "all gunlines all the time", and there was way more close combat than most of 6th or 7th.

Hell, that was the last time I could really make use of CSM's as actual aggressive and functional assault units. BP/CCW/Bolter with a couple meltas or flamers and a champ with a powerfist being dumped out of a Rhino that moved into position the previous turn was a beautiful thing. Even more beautiful was having a unit of Termi's or Oblits deep strike onto the icon the unit was carrying to crack a transport or soften up a target so the CSM's could get stuck in.

As for 8th, I do think cover and terrain needs to count for more for sure.

This i don't understand, in my view cover is fine...ok almost fine.

It has this weird issue with your models having to step on a peeble to be eligible to get cover, but apart from that it's the same old 50% obscured rule we always had. The only difference is that infantry is in cover with just the peeble.


I think that a lot of people are playing this wrong and think that for a non infantry model to be in cover it needs to be inside the cover and obscured by 50% by it, which is most of the time impossible.
Instead the rule is quite clear (and there is even a FAQ that clarifies this), if you have even a toe into an area terrain and there is something between you and shooting model (anything is fine, even enemy models) that covers you by 50%, then you are in cover. It's so easy. It's literally enough to put 3 marines or 2 primaris in front of your predator to give it cover.

As for the bonus it is the best system we ever had (ok played only from 5th so i have no idea if we had something better before that). It has a big impact, can be negated by shooting overly powerful weapons at the model, does not devalue highly armored models and cannot reach overbusted levels of invulnerability that puts your faction out of the meta if you don't have rules to ignore it.

Sure, i would be in favor of removing the peeble necessity, but apart from that what's wrong with it?

The issue is that you can have a thick wood in the middle of the table obscuring a shot between two units in their own deployment zones, but if neither are actually in or touching the terrain...suddenly it doesn't actually obscure anything, and that does have a notable impact on the game relative to previous editions where a cover save would have been granted, particularly turn 1 alpha strike stuff. Mid table terrain basically has to block LoS to provide any sort of defensive value for the first turn or two, otherwise it gets shot through like it just wasn't there if nobody is actually in or touching it. Likewise, against very powerful weapons, the -1ASM is nowhere near as resilient as a 4+ or 5+ cover save against very powerful weapons available in previous editions, essentially the big guns can blow straight through cover now. Now, I don't have as big an issue with the latter so much as it shifts the benefits of cover to better protect against small arms and weeny fire and that short of shift I can live with, but it does have to be acknowledged. The former issue is a big problem.

The firepower certainly went up.

Consider Melta vs Plas
Melta Guns used to not be particularly favored, because you typically didnt' need them for the big targets. But they were clearly better at cracking those hard targets than Plasma Guns.

They wanted to give PGs a safe-fire mode. Instead of giving them the safe-fire mode of Plas other factions had, they just made baseline Plas safe, and gave it a +1 mode that still Gets hot. That +1 mode is just *too good* at cracking the hard targets MGs are designed for, while the non-Gets Hot is still just as good as last edition. Further, with so many +1-to-hits or free-ish reroll-1s, Gets Hot isn't nearly as scary, despite being a much more negative result when it does happen.

In much of the game, they just "fixed" things by dialing the firepower up of the thing they were fixing. It destroys niches and breaks the durability-vs-firepower scale.

Just look at the Reapers vs Devs discussions. It is widely accepted that being able to pay for half again the firepower is much more useful than being able to more than double your durability! That should be a very obvious sign of a problem!

I'm hopeful that those who think the FAQ will lead to durability actually mattering will be proved right.

Side note - I really do miss the damage chart. I'd love it if we brought it back - even without the Explodes - as a replacement for degrading statlines. I think that'd be a *lot* more fun. Lascannons and Brightlances having a *chance* to destroy a weapon or lock a tread in one shot, even if it's unlikely, can be a lot of fun. Leads to a much more dynamic game. Just going off of remaining HP out of large-ish pools heavily normalizes the result.

Slipspace wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that reroll bubbles are even a thing is just impossibly stupid cockamamy nonsense.

This. A thousand times this. It's frustrating because I think GW got it right with Necrons: a smaller range on many abilities (3" instead of 6") and you have to target their most powerful buff to a single unit a turn. If all the current re-roll to hit auras worked like that I think things would be much better. I know this is only one very small part of the problem but I get so annoyed seeing entire armies hitting 90% of the time or better, then re-rolling 50% of their failed wound rolls too, all because of 1 or 2 characters. It makes the game feel completely non-interactive.

I can attest to how unfun this is. The last game I played was my Custodes against a friend's Blood Angels. The vast majority of hit rolls were 2+ re-rollable, with plenty of 3+ re-rollable and a good helping of 2+ to wound following it.

Felt like rolling all those dice was completely pointless in light of the very predictable outcome.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really.

Did you play 5th or just get told about it?

5th was the single most gunline focused edition ever.

You're funny. I recall TWC, Nob Bikers and GK Paladins being the standout problem children of 5th. None of which are gunline units.

When I was thinking about jumping into the game, near the end of 5th, these very boards bemoaned GK Paladins being OP. It also bemoaned Leafblower, too.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really.

Did you play 5th or just get told about it?

5th was the single most gunline focused edition ever.

You're funny. I recall TWC, Nob Bikers and GK Paladins being the standout problem children of 5th. None of which are gunline units.

3 units. Congrats.

Also I didn't use the 5th edition GK codex, but couldn't individual Paladins just get Psycannons? That would make for a gunline that teleports to the opponent's face at least.

This will always be the problem with 40k as long as GW insists on sticking with the outdated turn structure. As long as one entire army goes before the other nothing can fix it. GW even knows the solution, look at the re-release of necromunda, alternative activations, with the added depth that command units can activate a varying number of other units with themselves adding even more tactical considerations.
Alternating activations is the only way to fix 40k being a game of alpha strikers and minimal depth.

I agree with the OP. But question:

Why isn’t terrain blocking Gun Line Alpha Strike?

Or, at least where I play, it’s almost impossible to hit one or two units from Turn 1 unless you’re a Flyer or ignoring LoS artillery.

OMG Deppstrike is so much better in 8th!

OMG deep strike is broken!

YES SOUP FOR YOU!

NO SOUP SOUP FOR YOU!

The rule set for 8th is degrading so fast it is sad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geifer wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that reroll bubbles are even a thing is just impossibly stupid cockamamy nonsense.

This. A thousand times this. It's frustrating because I think GW got it right with Necrons: a smaller range on many abilities (3" instead of 6") and you have to target their most powerful buff to a single unit a turn. If all the current re-roll to hit auras worked like that I think things would be much better. I know this is only one very small part of the problem but I get so annoyed seeing entire armies hitting 90% of the time or better, then re-rolling 50% of their failed wound rolls too, all because of 1 or 2 characters. It makes the game feel completely non-interactive.

I can attest to how unfun this is. The last game I played was my Custodes against a friend's Blood Angels. The vast majority of hit rolls were 2+ re-rollable, with plenty of 3+ re-rollable and a good helping of 2+ to wound following it.

Felt like rolling all those dice was completely pointless in light of the very predictable outcome.

And i bet that blood angels player was pretty pleased with his "tactical genius" right?

The 40k ruleset is in a sad saaaaaad place right now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really.

Did you play 5th or just get told about it?

5th was the single most gunline focused edition ever.

You're funny. I recall TWC, Nob Bikers and GK Paladins being the standout problem children of 5th. None of which are gunline units.

3 units. Congrats.

Also I didn't use the 5th edition GK codex, but couldn't individual Paladins just get Psycannons? That would make for a gunline that teleports to the opponent's face at least.

They couldnt each take one, it was 2 per 5 IIRC.

Martel732 wrote:
I actually prefer the current cover system Make high AP weapons more expensive, and stop handing out invulns like candy.

100% agree with this.

Also, there should be a mechanic to splash through damage like in Sigmar. If you shoot a weapon with strength more than double that of the target unit, extra damage is converted into mortal wounds.

So if you shoot a Multi-Melta into Guardsmen and wound, dealing 5 damage, that should be 5 dead guardsmen because 8 (strength) is more than double 3 (toughness). So the squad loses 1 guardsmen and takes 4 mortal wounds.

AP dramatically should be toned down. AP-3 or better is handed out like candy. And 3++ should be SUPER rare on characters. Not "Oh let's see, i have 400 points to spend, time for two 3++ Custode Bike Captains because 0 downside."

Plas got mega buffed.

Over the last few editions, FireDragons/Reapers got too cheap.

Tau Plasma/Fusion got too good in 6e/7e

Scions are a thing

Moving while firing Heavy weapons became possible on 6s, then became jsut a -1 to hit

It's not a new thing. The game has been making it easier and easier to bring heavy weapons to bear.

Danny slag wrote:
This will always be the problem with 40k as long as GW insists on sticking with the outdated turn structure. As long as one entire army goes before the other nothing can fix it. GW even knows the solution, look at the re-release of necromunda, alternative activations, with the added depth that command units can activate a varying number of other units with themselves adding even more tactical considerations.
Alternating activations is the only way to fix 40k being a game of alpha strikers and minimal depth.

That would make the game a lot more dynamic and engaging.

hobojebus wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Gun lines work because people forgot transports exist.

No IG army is going to take down a proper mechanized marine force unless they go full anti armor.

And with the turn one nerf to scions they remain weak against a massed power armor rhino rush. Throw in counter deep striking or faster jump pack or biker scouts for the turn two drop.....

Without that at will plasma drop IG had this is not the one sided faq you are all making it out to be.

Transports suck they are way too expensive and it's too easy to just cripple them into crawling along slower than the infantry they carry.

They are not the answer to gun lines.

FALSE *Dwight Schrute.png*

It takes 9 wounds to make a Rhino slower than infantry. They move 12" plus advance places them at almost triple the speed. Add on to that the disembark and move your infantry can be in the enemy lines turn 2 with very little effort.

12 rhino move + 3.5 advance + 3 disembark + ~1 for base + 6 for regular move

25 inches. I don't know about you, but last time I checked it was 24" between zones.

Pancakey wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that reroll bubbles are even a thing is just impossibly stupid cockamamy nonsense.

This. A thousand times this. It's frustrating because I think GW got it right with Necrons: a smaller range on many abilities (3" instead of 6") and you have to target their most powerful buff to a single unit a turn. If all the current re-roll to hit auras worked like that I think things would be much better. I know this is only one very small part of the problem but I get so annoyed seeing entire armies hitting 90% of the time or better, then re-rolling 50% of their failed wound rolls too, all because of 1 or 2 characters. It makes the game feel completely non-interactive.

I can attest to how unfun this is. The last game I played was my Custodes against a friend's Blood Angels. The vast majority of hit rolls were 2+ re-rollable, with plenty of 3+ re-rollable and a good helping of 2+ to wound following it.

Felt like rolling all those dice was completely pointless in light of the very predictable outcome.

And i bet that blood angels player was pretty pleased with his "tactical genius" right?

The 40k ruleset is in a sad saaaaaad place right now.

Nah, he's cool.

What's not cool is playing the game on auto-pilot because you already know what's going to happen.

AP is not the problem, big stuff just has not enough Wounds, while basic infantry is too cheap
If Bolters need less shots to kill a Bloodthirster than to kill equal points of Horros, than something is wrong

 Daedalus81 wrote:

25 inches. I don't know about you, but last time I checked it was 24" between zones.

The question is, what can I bring that is worth to get over into the other zone to fight if I have something better that can just stay back and shoot

Yes, Rhino Rush works, but as a Space Wolves and Thousand Sons player, I don't see a reason to move my units to the enemy and get them killed for a minor benefit

 Geifer wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
The fact that reroll bubbles are even a thing is just impossibly stupid cockamamy nonsense.

This. A thousand times this. It's frustrating because I think GW got it right with Necrons: a smaller range on many abilities (3" instead of 6") and you have to target their most powerful buff to a single unit a turn. If all the current re-roll to hit auras worked like that I think things would be much better. I know this is only one very small part of the problem but I get so annoyed seeing entire armies hitting 90% of the time or better, then re-rolling 50% of their failed wound rolls too, all because of 1 or 2 characters. It makes the game feel completely non-interactive.

I can attest to how unfun this is. The last game I played was my Custodes against a friend's Blood Angels. The vast majority of hit rolls were 2+ re-rollable, with plenty of 3+ re-rollable and a good helping of 2+ to wound following it.

Felt like rolling all those dice was completely pointless in light of the very predictable outcome.

And i bet that blood angels player was pretty pleased with his "tactical genius" right?

The 40k ruleset is in a sad saaaaaad place right now.

Nah, he's cool.

What's not cool is playing the game on auto-pilot because you already know what's going to happen.

Glad to here hes cool!

I know what you mean about the auto pilot. The 40k ruleset is in a sad saaaaaad place.

Every time a rule is changed there is a huge knee jerk reaction and the sky is falling. Honestly, I feel that there is no way anyone on these boards will be happy with 40k. They have been complaining about the game since forever. Why do they even play it? People want to go back to 5th edition now? Do we need to resurrect some old threads from back then? Everyone remember Stelek right. Half of dakka now feels like stelek -lite.

I am actually a fan of the game. The only complaint I have is the number of documents all the rules are spread out on. Just consolidate them onto an App where all the rules can be updated simultaneously without costing us more money. This is 2018 after all.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
People want to go back to 5th edition now?

there are at least 2 gaming groups around here that took that path and rolled back to 5th (but we had different rules for szenarios and mission points here so it is 5th with house rules) and they are happy with it

Everything you've mentioned is why this is a -beta- rule. Concrete feedback like this through TESTING and not THEORY is what is needed though.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Every time a rule is changed there is a huge knee jerk reaction and the sky is falling. Honestly, I feel that there is no way anyone on these boards will be happy with 40k. They have been complaining about the game since forever. Why do they even play it? People want to go back to 5th edition now? Do we need to resurrect some old threads from back then? Everyone remember Stelek right. Half of dakka now feels like stelek -lite.

I am actually a fan of the game. The only complaint I have is the number of documents all the rules are spread out on. Just consolidate them onto an App where all the rules can be updated simultaneously without costing us more money. This is 2018 after all.

This is how I feel as well. I have been coming to Dakkadakka for years and yyyeeaars. Every. Single. Edition. Games Workshop is the devil, they can't write rules, the game is gak, the rules are gak, they are ruining the story. On and on and on... I actually quit DakkaDakka for awhile, not 40k, and it made my gaming experience so much better. My friends and I did the same thing. For 8th I came back to start the Space Wolves tactica thread and sell my extra Tau army... I am thinking of simply leaving Dakka again though. I am excited about the game and just last week had an AWESOME, intense and fun game with my best friend. But when I come here it's just constant tears and salt and kind of depresses the experience.

Legitimate issue discussion is fine but this online community has gotten fairly toxic. It's almost as bad as Counter-Strike or LOL.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Did 5th have a problem with alpha strike gun lines dominating everything? Not really.

Did you play 5th or just get told about it?

5th was the single most gunline focused edition ever.

You're funny. I recall TWC, Nob Bikers and GK Paladins being the standout problem children of 5th. None of which are gunline units.

3 units. Congrats.

Also I didn't use the 5th edition GK codex, but couldn't individual Paladins just get Psycannons? That would make for a gunline that teleports to the opponent's face at least.

3 incredibly popular units that could exploit 5th ed's wound allocation rules. They were seen on practically every table. So. Many. Counts. As. Units. Of. TWC...

The Leafblower list was fairy dust. It was mythical. In all my time playing I never encountered it, yet I saw all of the above units all the time.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Gun lines work because people forgot transports exist.

No IG army is going to take down a proper mechanized marine force unless they go full anti armor.

And with the turn one nerf to scions they remain weak against a massed power armor rhino rush. Throw in counter deep striking or faster jump pack or biker scouts for the turn two drop.....

Without that at will plasma drop IG had this is not the one sided faq you are all making it out to be.

Transports suck they are way too expensive and it's too easy to just cripple them into crawling along slower than the infantry they carry.

They are not the answer to gun lines.

FALSE *Dwight Schrute.png*

It takes 9 wounds to make a Rhino slower than infantry. They move 12" plus advance places them at almost triple the speed. Add on to that the disembark and move your infantry can be in the enemy lines turn 2 with very little effort.

12 rhino move + 3.5 advance + 3 disembark + ~1 for base + 6 for regular move

25 inches. I don't know about you, but last time I checked it was 24" between zones.

Meanwhile, you can't disembark after the transport moves, only before. [I actually think this is a huge issue with actually transporting anything; you're always a turn behind where you actually want/need your units to be. And since you have to disembark at the top of the move, instead of the bottom - it gives your opponent too much of an opportunity to gun it down, along with anything inside, before the transport/transportees can do anything.]

So... yeah, your numbers are off. The opponent now has one additional round to gun down your transport. Worse yet, you give the squad inside a 1/6 of losing a person, per model in the transport.

Rhinos are likely the most viable transport out there; they're very durable and cheap - other factions transports however, aren't (in one, or both, aspects).

Orks pay 82points for a T6, W10, Sv4+ model (Mv12"). The squad of 12 Boyz inside cost 6*12=72points. And, they get a 1/6 chance per boy to lose a model when the T6 Trukk blows up (which, lets be realistic, it's a T6, Sv4+ model - if an army has issues killing that, they've got bigger problems than a squad of 12 boyz).

Aye, while IG was strong in 5E, the "leafblower" thing was monstrously overplayed. It started out as something someone named their 2500pt 'Ard Boyz army list that won in 2009 after it got first turn every single game against opponents who admittedly did little or no counterdeployment.

Then suddenly any IG list with a vehicle in it, especially a Chimera, was suddenly a "leafblower", and armies that looked nothing like that 2500pt 'Ard Boyz list got labelled as such

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I actually prefer the current cover system Make high AP weapons more expensive, and stop handing out invulns like candy.

100% agree with this.

Also, there should be a mechanic to splash through damage like in Sigmar. If you shoot a weapon with strength more than double that of the target unit, extra damage is converted into mortal wounds.

So if you shoot a Multi-Melta into Guardsmen and wound, dealing 5 damage, that should be 5 dead guardsmen because 8 (strength) is more than double 3 (toughness). So the squad loses 1 guardsmen and takes 4 mortal wounds.

AP dramatically should be toned down. AP-3 or better is handed out like candy. And 3++ should be SUPER rare on characters. Not "Oh let's see, i have 400 points to spend, time for two 3++ Custode Bike Captains because 0 downside."

That change is not good. It basically makes anti-tank weapons TAC weapons that can kill tanks and destroy hordes. And it doesn't even help agaisnt hordes, you shoot a melta shot at a terminator squad and you could melt 3 of them with mortal wounds. Remember that mortal wounds punish elite units harder than cheap hordes, because they are paying for good armour and invulnerable saves that they can't use.

 TedNugent wrote:
Or if someone could just explain why the number of shots on assault cannons were doubled.

A TL assault cannon is literally 12 shots. Then you get the reroll to hit anyway on top of it.

That's not even power creep. It f'ing quadrupled in firepower.

You also need to consider how garbage it was in 7th.
It also lost AP in the transition to 8th to compensate for having more shots.

If you look at all weapons that were AP4 in 7th, they got AP-1
All weapons that had Rending also received an additional -1

Assault cannons, otoh, only have AP-1, but as the above, should have AP-2. This is clearly because GW wanted to better represent the gun that has 6 barrels and spits metal.
More shots was a better representation then better AP.

-