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I don’t think you can competitively run a Castellan and a Valiant. I’ve been trying but I’m not at all certain that you can take different houses in the same detachment (try as I might)

That being said, I think you go Raven for all of those re-rolls. I think I can fit two min batallions and 3 knights, even if one is a Castellan

So let me get this straight, if say I take an IK SHD that has a Questoris Knight and 2 Armigers and an Ad Mech Battalion as my army but my warlord is an Ad Mech character, can I spend 2 CP on Exalted Court and Heirlooms to give the Knight in my SHD a WL trait and relic even though my warlord is from a different faction?

 Silentz wrote:


It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

This tech priest gets it

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So let me get this straight, if say I take an IK SHD that has a Questoris Knight and 2 Armigers and an Ad Mech Battalion as my army but my warlord is an Ad Mech character, can I spend 2 CP on Exalted Court and Heirlooms to give the Knight in my SHD a WL trait and relic even though my warlord is from a different faction?

Yes.

Thats my plan as I'm fairly sure that CP regeneration is going to be a big boost to my knight army.

Right now I'm thinking 3 of the mid size knights, exact configuration to be decieded once I have a codex

But what is everyone else thoughts on Cannis Rex?
I have an army list in mind thats probably not optimised but I'm try to do something a little less oh another IG CP farm plus actual army.

I just sent this letter to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com

Hope this finds you well.

I'm writing regarding the Lance Formation from the new knights codex.

From the Imperial Knight Codex:

"Knight Lances

If your army is battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment in your army. That model gains the Character keyword. However, the command benefit of each Imperial Knight Super Heavy detachment is changed to none, unless it contains any combination of at least three Questorus Class, and/or Dominus Class unit"

From the big FAQ:

“When creating a Battle-forged army, the Battalion and Brigade Detachments are seen as not offering enough command points for the number of units you must include. As a result, we will increase the Battalion Detachment’s Command Benefits to +5 Command Points and the Brigade Detachment’s to +12 Command Points. These changes appear in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook errata, but are shown below for convenience."

From the blog post about the big FAQ:

“The rules team have done a great job of giving armies access to a whole host of characterful Stratagems to play with. The only issue was, Command Points were often in short supply, especially for ‘elite’ style armies. So, to reward players who build their lists using the Battalion and Brigade Detachments, we’re offering even more Command Points to these Troop-heavy forces."

The above change was done to help elite armies who couldn't get enough command points, compared to armies that can spam cheap battalions and brigades to get more command points, without fielding the now notorious Guard CP Battery (180 points guard battalion with, with CP regenerating warlord trait and relic).

So the reason for this email is to ask, why the imperial Knight Codex actively discourages running pure knights as an army?

In a 2000 point game my army can at most have 6CP if I run only imperial Knights. Yet the rules encourage me to run the notorious Astra Militarum CP battery, as for 180 points I can get an extra 5CP (bringing me up to 11CP) and the ability to regenerate CP. In addition, it seems like the intention is to penalize players that take the new Armiger models, as there are literally no benefits for taking them when a similarly priced Guard Battery grants CP, ObSec, and CP regeneration.

It seems that there was a lack of communication between the introduction of Armigers in Forgebane, where we were told that Armigers will be a great source of cheap CP, and printing of the codex where Armigers deny CP from IK detachments. It is understandable that the increased CP cited in the Big FAQ occurred after the IK codex was already printed, however, with an official correction or explanation, I see no reason to purchase models I cannot use.

In addition, with official Grand Tournament point values dropping to 1750, the handicap given to IK armies does not encourage anyone to purchase the new models, due to the Dominus class being too expensive points wise, and the Armigers being useless for CP.

I for one will be encouraging players in my area to delay purchasing any of the new models until this issue is resolved favorably.

Thank you, and have a good day,

And yes, I encourage everyone like minded to vote with their wallets.

SJ

Done, just sent them an email. Can send it to anyone who wants a laugh

Was going to get a castellan and two boxes of armigers until i saw armigers wont help with cp. :/

I'm still getting two boxes of Warglaives. Even without CP, two Guard Battalions allows me to do what I want to do, but I've sent my own angry email and will be commenting on all of their FB posts. Lol

Well if emails works change likely come before warglaives are released outside forgebane

Caederes wrote:
I don't think there's anything stopping you from giving one extra relic to your Lance and the other extra relic to your Auxiliary, ditto with the extra Warlord/character stratagem. It's certainly what I plan on doing if I go for a variation of Option 1) as listed above.

Just worked out that you can legally field Guilliman (Auxiliary), a minimum Guard battalion, and 4 Gallants (Knight Lance) in 2000 points. I wouldn't do it, but good lord that would be terrifying For CP, you get 3 (Guilliman Warlord) + 3 (Knight Lance) + 3 (Battle-Forged) + 5 (Battalion) = 14CP. You'll always spend at least 2CP on the Guard and Knight extra relics (Kurov's + Paragon Gauntlet), maybe 5CP if you want one of the other nice Knight relics a Gallant can use (i.e. Helm for +1 Attack, 2+ save, 5++ in combat, etc), then 3CP for the extra Warlords (4++ on one and Landstrider on the other seem like the best bets). Hopefully you refund a lot of those, then spam Full Tilt and Terryn's fight twice stratagem with Guilliman giving any nearby Knights re-roll 1s to-hit Also, because the Lance automatically makes one of the Knights a character and you can split the extra relic and warlord stratagems among the other three should you wish, you can have all 4 Gallants and Guilliman together capable of massed Heroic Interventions Just watch out for Flyers!

That sounds crazy fun.

Rule of 3 prevents 4 gallants, no?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Rule of 3 prevents 4 gallants, no?

Correct.

Ok since we're reviewing units, here are my thoughts so far.

The Imperialis/Mechanicus split is really important. Some of the stratagems are limited to one or the other - notably the "fight when you die" one is imperialis-only.

Don't take a Valiant. They force you to take imperialis. Actually it wants to be house Raven, with landstrider so it can get up close fast and start burning things. It can't then have the relic flamer, but I think it's a worthwhile trade-off to let you fire at all in turn 1.

That said, the harpoon is kind of a joke weapon, so the flamer has a lot of work to do to catch up. I really can't see a compelling reason to take this guy. Any model that routinely fails to fire on turn 1 is kind of a non-starter in my book.

I think a castellan with Cawl's wrath is probably worth its points. Specifically, a house Taranis (luckily the house my existing 4 knights are painted as!) knight with the 4++ warlord trait and Cawl's Wrath looks like a pretty solid option.

I actually think the preceptor looks like a solid all-rounder. If you check the maths on his gun it actually performs well against pretty much anything. It's obviously only worth taking him if you've got Armigers, but if you do then he'll be a perfectly adequate knight as well as buffing them. Not a superstar, but not a liability, basically.

This matters because the major problem knights seem to have is hordes. A decent way to deal with them might well be to send in a few armigers with a preceptor. I quite like armigers now. They've come down to a very respectable price point and can attack any target you want.

The paladin looks overcosted now. In fact the crusader does too, with a battlecannon. A battlecannon is better than a thermal cannon, but I don't think it's 28 points better. For the price you could have a carapace gun and points to spare. I'm pretty sure that's always a better option. Thermal cannon and ironstorm missile pod > battlecannon, and costs less. In reality, the decision might come down to a few points here or there. If you can afford it and the missile pod, the battlecannon is still the better of the two options.

The avenger is great, so the crusader remains by far the best option for most knights. I really wish they'd brought in a sweep attack option for chainswords and fists, to give us a reason to take them. Stomps are probably too good really.

It's definitely a strength that you have an army without many drops. I'd want to keep it that way. As such I think I'm abandoning my plan of using an admech detachment as allies. The guys you get just seem terrible. Instead I'm looking at a battalion of militarum tempestus, with a taurox prime or two. I'll be able to set up my characters in that along with a squad of 5 guys, and the others can deep strike in where needed. That also gives me a useful couple of null deployments at the start before I have to start dropping 400+ point models on the board. Here's what that list might look like at 1750:

Taranis Knight Lance

Castellan 604
2 Turrets
2 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Warden 427
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber
Stormspear Rocket Pod

Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber
Landstrider

Militarum Tempestus Battalion

Tempestor Prime 45
Tempestor Command Rod
Chainsword

Primaris Psyker 46
Force Stave

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
Hot Shot Lasguns/pistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
Hot Shot Lasguns/pistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
Hot Shot Lasguns/pistol

Taurox Prime 124
Taurox gatling cannon
Two Autocannons

Kind of oddly, it actually ends up working for the militarum tempestus regiment. Not a huge bonus, but it should generate an occasional extra shot now and then.

So regarding Knights Gallant. Should they get the Meltagun instead of the Heavy Stubber? And what about Carapace Weapons? It seems like they might actually benefit from having either a Stormspear or Ironstorm missile launcher for laying down some ranged shots while they rush up the field.

I'd probably take the Meltagun and that's it. You'll probably be using the advance and charge strat most of the time.

If you're House Raven, then a carapace weapon is a good idea if you can afford it since they can still advance and fire it with no penalty. A Meltagun complements it nicely since it wants to be up close and personal and the Heavy Stubber probably won't make a huge difference if whatever you want to charge is being screened anyway.

 Dynas wrote:

Caederes wrote:
I don't think there's anything stopping you from giving one extra relic to your Lance and the other extra relic to your Auxiliary, ditto with the extra Warlord/character stratagem. It's certainly what I plan on doing if I go for a variation of Option 1) as listed above.

Just worked out that you can legally field Guilliman (Auxiliary), a minimum Guard battalion, and 4 Gallants (Knight Lance) in 2000 points. I wouldn't do it, but good lord that would be terrifying For CP, you get 3 (Guilliman Warlord) + 3 (Knight Lance) + 3 (Battle-Forged) + 5 (Battalion) = 14CP. You'll always spend at least 2CP on the Guard and Knight extra relics (Kurov's + Paragon Gauntlet), maybe 5CP if you want one of the other nice Knight relics a Gallant can use (i.e. Helm for +1 Attack, 2+ save, 5++ in combat, etc), then 3CP for the extra Warlords (4++ on one and Landstrider on the other seem like the best bets). Hopefully you refund a lot of those, then spam Full Tilt and Terryn's fight twice stratagem with Guilliman giving any nearby Knights re-roll 1s to-hit Also, because the Lance automatically makes one of the Knights a character and you can split the extra relic and warlord stratagems among the other three should you wish, you can have all 4 Gallants and Guilliman together capable of massed Heroic Interventions Just watch out for Flyers!

That sounds crazy fun.

I believe a FAQ said you can't Regen on before the battle strats like relics. Otherwise looks good!

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
If you're House Raven, then a carapace weapon is a good idea if you can afford it since they can still advance and fire it with no penalty. A Meltagun complements it nicely since it wants to be up close and personal and the Heavy Stubber probably won't make a huge difference if whatever you want to charge is being screened anyway.

I am going House Mortan. So I definitely want up close and personal. I actually thought about the Ironstorm for helping with screens.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Rule of 3 prevents 4 gallants, no?

Correct.

Yeah unfortunately I've not played too much 40K since the Big FAQ so that rule keeps creeping up on me to destroy my crazy ideas
You could still do a similar list with 3 Knights + Guilliman + Guard, just either upgrade (i.e. Stormspears) the Knights (maybe change into more expensive variants at the cost of weaker melee?) or invest more into the Guard (Pask, Mortar teams, etc) with the ~360 points you'll have spare. Conceptually a Knight torpedo bodyguard for Guilliman sounds almost awesome enough to justify owning 3 of the same Knight variant.

As far as weapons on the Gallant are concerned, it really depends on what you are doing. House Raven is the best choice if you want to give them some decent weaponry, namely the Stormspear rocket pods on top (overall the best carapace weapon). If you're not bothering with carapace weapons, the Gallants probably want to be Terryn for fight-twice (while expensive in a CP starved army, it's different from other factions' fight twice stratagems by working after a Knight has fought rather than at the end of the phase, can be a huge difference maker) and extra D6 discard the lowest for advance and charge rolls, though if that compromises the other Knights/relics in your list then don't bother (most Knights don't want to be Terryn) and look for something more universal. Landstrider and Full Tilt are really all the Gallants need to make it in quickly.

EDIT: Mortan? Hmm. See if the points saved on the meltagun are worth spending elsewhere in your list; if not, that meltagun can do some good work. I think the Stormspear maths out to be the best carapace weapon in almost any situation, but if you don't necessarily plan on shooting it every turn or having the Gallant survive too long, saving points on the Ironstorm probably isn't a bad idea.

I think the Strategem where you treat a wounded Knight at the non degraded stat line is gold. 1 Cp ( i forget the name) Probably use that one every turn. most opponents will focus fire a single knight before moving on to the next (as they should) thus you will basically always be having all your knights at full functionality. That is vital for BS/WS stats.

Guilliman is annoyingly good. The only thing better though is probably another knight.

Stratagems are good, but I think you're better off with more killing power most of the time.

Here's a really straightforward 2k list. Looks pretty scary to me. 4 knights with lots of big guns.

Castellan 604
2 Turrets
2 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Crusader 485
Rapid-fire Battlecannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
2 Heavy Stubbers

Crusader 457
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber

Warden 452
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Reaper Chainsword
Stormspear Rocket Pod

I guess you could use the exalted court stratagem, though I'm not sure what else you need really so I think maybe you'd just look after your 6 precious CPs. Then hang back and blaze away.

Incidentally, house Krast seem utterly brutal. You have rerolls to hit if you charge, are charged or heroically intervene (so always, basically). You've got a relic that makes all your weapons do 1 more damage to anything with 10+ wounds and a warlord trait that makes you always reroll 1s to hit.

They could make a list with 2 Castellans in. Give one Cawl's wrath and 4++. The other gets the Krast relic and trait. List could look like this:

Krast Knight Lance

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
Krast Trait
Krast Relic

Crusader 457
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber

Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber

Personally, I'm planning to take a Castellan with full Siegebreakers, a Custodes Outrider of 3 bike squads and one Captain (adding an extra for 11 total) with the -1 to be Hit flag and then a minimum AM CP battalion.

Castellan is 4++ with Cawl's Wrath. So all his anti-vehicle with 11 Hurricane Bolters for chaff (66/132 shots!) And a manageable 9 CP.

 Silentz wrote:
I feel that results might not bear out this lack of faith in the Valiant.

I think you can thunder it up the middle of the board flaming stuff and sniping a character a turn, charging anything within range just to get the additional movement distance, then when it dies use the stratagem to make it 50% likely to detonate and do d6 mortals to all units in 3d6" range. (edit this is not entirely accurate... assuming no rerolls I think it is 75% chance to blow up but only 25% chance to blow 3d6)

It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

At the absolute worst it is a total zone denial tool as your opponent will be spending a considerable amount of energy trying to stay more than 20"-28" away from it so they won't get harpooned and cremated next turn.

The thing about a Knight is that you have to eliminate threats to it to allow it to make back it's points. I doubt any Knight is going to kill more than 400 points worth of units without massive support. That's ultimately why I don't think Knights will be successful alone except against unprepared armies. There is also an efficiency problem because we can only use Full Tilt and Ion Shield once per phase. Fortunately, depending on the wording, Raven stratagem can be spammed because it affects multiple phases throughout the turn. Definitely use once during the Psychic phase and again in Movement and possibly again in Shooting.

That being said, the huge advantage of Mechanicum Knights means that we almost guaranteedly will be partnered with AdMech. Stygies Dragoons and Electro-Priests are probably our best bet for alpha striking. Kastelan Robots handle hordes.

Suzuteo wrote:
Now that the codex is out, the rumors thread should move here to the tactica thread.

In any case, here are my impressions:

Dominus Knights suck. They cost an awful lot, are less durable than Questoris Knights because there's no way anyone can afford 3 CP Rotate Ion Shields every turn, and only one of them has access to the tools to fulfill its role (the Castellan).

The best lone Knight you can run now is a Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear. You can take two Helverins for support. I think they are mediocre, but they do give your Warden that delicious move, advance, shoot, charge turn one--rerolling 1s the entire time.

Perceptor sucks. The Las-Impulsor is a jack of all trades weapon that essentially halves the range of better guns. Paradoxically, it pretty much forces you to take Helverins, which are a hyper-specialized T6 vehicle killer.

Mechanicus Knights have so many advantages, it's not even a fair comparison. Best Houses (Taranis and Raven), best stratagem (Machine Spirit Resurgent), access to Canticles (Death Grip with Invocation of Machine Might instant kills a ton of stuff), and they get the Castellan.

Imperialis Knights suck unless you run a Hawkshroud Lance. Furthermore, they can only take Valiant. The only bright side is outflanking Gallants, but there are much, much better deep strike options out there.

Freeblades are a big missed opportunity. I don't think the qualities are appealing enough or the burdens harsh enough to ever make someone not want to pick.

Finally, the Auxiliary and Lance rules are not fluffy and unduly punishing, especially to the Imperialis side, which relies on having a tradition to make up for their lack of Machine Spirit Resurgent.

In summary, the codex creates some really strong builds and adds much needed value to Knights, but it also intentionally created some weird de-synergy and inequality.

I would have to respectfully disagree. For maybe 100 points more, Dominus class is far more shooty than any of the regular knights. The fire power output is far higher. Not to mention the option to use that siegebreaker missile to snipe an important character is pricelss. So, If you want efficiency in fire output, Dominus outperforms regular knights by shots and damage per point. The only issue would be that if you have enough fire power to destroy a Dominus in one turn, then its more points lost compared to losing a regular knight to shooting on turn 1. However, nowadays, with the strategem on ion shields to give +1 save, and the warlord trait of 4++, its not so easy to destroy a knight, much less a Dominus class in one turn of shooting. I mean, we are talking about a 28W, T8, 4++ (upgradable to 3++).

Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

Seriously?! What the hell for?

Yeah. 1/2 I could maybe understand but the 1/3 is vicious.

I wanted to chime in and sing the praises of one strat I haven't seen mentioned much yet- the Ravens' "Order of Companions"

For those who have not seen, for 2 CP it lets you re-roll 1's for the number of shots, to hit, to wound, and the number of wounds when variable. On a beast like the Castellan, this has an enormous impact, increasing the long-range damage efficiency by up to 68%, as shown below. A big part of the reason is how many times it comes into play when looking at the Castellan's weapons, with the two big ones both having variable shots. For reference, re-rolling 1s on a D6 gives you an average of 3.92 while a D3 gives 2.3333.