Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Suzuteo wrote:

The thing about a Knight is that you have to eliminate threats to it to allow it to make back it's points. I doubt any Knight is going to kill more than 400 points worth of units without massive support. That's ultimately why I don't think Knights will be successful alone except against unprepared armies. There is also an efficiency problem because we can only use Full Tilt and Ion Shield once per phase. Fortunately, depending on the wording, Raven stratagem can be spammed because it affects multiple phases throughout the turn. Definitely use once during the Psychic phase and again in Movement and possibly again in Shooting.

That being said, the huge advantage of Mechanicum Knights means that we almost guaranteedly will be partnered with AdMech. Stygies Dragoons and Electro-Priests are probably our best bet for alpha striking. Kastelan Robots handle hordes.

Well on target rich enviroment castellan will make points back with volcano cannon vs leman russ and it\s kind in 4 turns. Then shoulder guns, melta guns, carapace weapons and plasma weapon. Plus making points back doesn't mean just killing. Soaking up firepower and area control also are important.

I almost wonder if the Blessed by Sancristans would be a good option for the Valiant instead of the relic flamer. Rerolls to wound is great, but on an average of 11 hits, you are going to do two-ish mortal wounds.

By the way, Heirlooms of the Household makes the recipient model also gain the character keyword. You don't need to use Exalted Court to make them a character first.

Wow. That's big. So you need to decide is 1/3 CP's worth to give warlord trait as well as relic. IF you want relic AND warlord trait for 3 knights that's whopping 6 CP. You could save 2 by settling for 1 extra warlord trait only.

tneva82 wrote:
Wow. That's big. So you need to decide is 1/3 CP's worth to give warlord trait as well as relic. IF you want relic AND warlord trait for 3 knights that's whopping 6 CP. You could save 2 by settling for 1 extra warlord trait only.

I am more likely to do an extra relic and an extra Warlord Trait. If I take Cunning Commander for one of those traits, it refunds itself. I am more apt to take the relics though.

Knights are so CP hungry with hard way to get them especially if they want more than 3 knights I might skimp on 3rd warlord trait. We'll see. I have to look what others there are besides 4++ that really appeal to me.

The rules for Armigers not counting towards CP makes this article kind of misleading.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/12/unit-focus-armiger-warglaivesgw-homepage-post-4/

While Armigers may be “small” by the standard of Imperial Knights, they’re still comparable in power to the mightiest war machines used by other armies, and thus, you’ll find them in the Lord of War slot. Unlike other Lords of War, you’ll be able to fit up to three Armigers in a single slot, making filling out a Super-heavy Detachment – and netting three Command Points – easy! We’d recommend pairing two with a fully fledged Imperial Knight for a balanced and powerful collection of units.

tneva82 wrote:
Knights are so CP hungry with hard way to get them especially if they want more than 3 knights I might skimp on 3rd warlord trait. We'll see. I have to look what others there are besides 4++ that really appeal to me.

1d4chan has all of their information updated in their tactics section now (they don't have the relics for the Houses in yet). I am still thinking going with House Mortan. I wish their Warlord Trait made more sense for them.

I'm currently starting a Gallant build to use alongside my Vostroyan Firstborn army as a Freeblade. Skipping the carapace weapon, as I want to save points where I can but I am going to splurge slightly and spend an extra 13 points on the chest mounted Meltagun as I want to be able to advance with my knight and still shoot (Assault weapon) and then use the 2CP stratagem to allow for a charge even if you advanced in the movement phase.

Am I correct in that you can make a lone knight in your force your warlord (Freeblade specifically)? If so, the 4++ Invunerable save (Ion Bulwark) WL trait or the +1 attack (Knight Seneschal) WL trait seem to be the ones to go with, depending on what kind of opponent you're facing. Up against Orks or a swarm army? Go with the extra attack WL trait. Up against a shooty force? Roll with the 4++ WL trait.

Freeblade Qualities and burdens I would chose would be Indomitable for the quality (+1 Wound and Leadership) and Driven to Slaughter (No fallback, change BS to BS:6+) and Obsessed with Vengeance (Can only target and charge the closest enemy unit). The knight has only 1 gun on it and will be charging anything it can every turn to try and do as much damage as possible before it dies, so even if I do fail the leadership test (At LD:10) it will rarely affect how I'm generally using the Knight.

Lastly, the Paragon Gauntlet seems to be the best option for the Gallant. It allows you to hit without the -1 penalty and use the Death Grip Stratagem so you hit on a 2+ with that single attack

I'm excited to get my knight built and try it out. At 367 points, I feel like it'll do well making back a fair portion of its points most games.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Anyone considered going heavy Amigers instead of heavy knights? I know Amigers in a supreme command detachment don't get the cp. But the fire power of a Helverin is no joke. Its the equivalent of two predator tank autocannons for just 174 points.

6 Helverins cost 1,044 points and packs the equivalent of 12 predator tank autocannons. That's 24d3 shots.with each shot doing 3 damage. @_@

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Am I correct in that you can make a lone knight in your force your warlord (Freeblade specifically)? If so, the 4++ Invunerable save (Ion Bulwark) WL trait or the +1 attack (Knight Seneschal) WL trait seem to be the ones to go with, depending on what kind of opponent you're facing. Up against Orks or a swarm army? Go with the extra attack WL trait. Up against a shooty force? Roll with the 4++ WL trait.

Freeblades don't seem to be characters on their own and aux detachment gets no characters so to do that you need to spend CP's to make freeblade character with WL trait. Albeit that means you have the normal warlord to assign still.

tneva82 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Am I correct in that you can make a lone knight in your force your warlord (Freeblade specifically)? If so, the 4++ Invunerable save (Ion Bulwark) WL trait or the +1 attack (Knight Seneschal) WL trait seem to be the ones to go with, depending on what kind of opponent you're facing. Up against Orks or a swarm army? Go with the extra attack WL trait. Up against a shooty force? Roll with the 4++ WL trait.

Freeblades don't seem to be characters on their own and aux detachment gets no characters so to do that you need to spend CP's to make freeblade character with WL trait. Albeit that means you have the normal warlord to assign still.

I was under the impression that a freeblade if fielded as a lone LoW (I intend to use mine as part of a Supreme Command Detachment) you could make it your warlord, which would confer character to the Knight, and then open up the knight relic list. Or did I misunderstand how freeblade knights work in conjunction with a larger Imperial force (Guard in my case)?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

What HQ you were planning to field with knight? With FAQ Imperium keyword is out now. What faction keyword knight share with some HQ models you plan apart from Imperium?

Haven't heard that freeblades would be automatically characters. If they are then different.

Warlord btw doesn't give automatically character. You can make any model(even lowly ripper swarm) your warlord but then unless it has character no warlord trait.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I would have to respectfully disagree. For maybe 100 points more, Dominus class is far more shooty than any of the regular knights. The fire power output is far higher. Not to mention the option to use that siegebreaker missile to snipe an important character is pricelss. So, If you want efficiency in fire output, Dominus outperforms regular knights by shots and damage per point. The only issue would be that if you have enough fire power to destroy a Dominus in one turn, then its more points lost compared to losing a regular knight to shooting on turn 1. However, nowadays, with the strategem on ion shields to give +1 save, and the warlord trait of 4++, its not so easy to destroy a knight, much less a Dominus class in one turn of shooting. I mean, we are talking about a 28W, T8, 4++ (upgradable to 3++).

Your point only makes sense if you're set on running Knights. But there are a ton of more efficient shooting vehicles that you take for 600 points. (Shadowswords are an easy example.) Really, you have to get your Knights into CC to make their points back. This was the case before the codex, and even more so after the codex, since the best improvements are going toward Questoris Knights with a Thunderstrike Gauntlet.

Shieldbreaker Missiles look better on paper than in practice. But they are one shot per turn, one use per battle, cost 2CP, and might not even hit.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

Seriously?! What the hell for?

Yeah. You must have missed that. But the math easily bears out that Questoris Knights are much more durable than Dominus Knights. For example, they take 30% more lascannon shots.

Yeah shadowsword wrecks many targets. Of course castellan vs shadowsword duel is likely to end up in castellan win even if shadowsword gets to shoot first. 3d3=6 shots, 3 hits, let's say 3 wounds. 3++ so 1 through, 2d6 damage=7. Result firepower about halves damage with volcano lance plus plasma + shoulder+carapace. Did shadowsword have titanic keyword btw? If yes even better. No way shadowsword can take that firepower long enough to take out target. Even 2nd turn won't be enough.

What questor btw wrecks leman russ without even using even half the guns it has? As it is with russes volcano lance alone makes up points in 4 turns. Add in no CP battery for enemy IG after turn 1.

Same toughnesd same saves fewer W how are they more durable.

Sure its more pricey to protect them but if you doiuble brigade you can do it for a couple of turns if thats your priority

tneva82 wrote:
What HQ you were planning to field with knight? With FAQ Imperium keyword is out now. What faction keyword knight share with some HQ models you plan apart from Imperium?

Haven't heard that freeblades would be automatically characters. If they are then different.

Warlord btw doesn't give automatically character. You can make any model(even lowly ripper swarm) your warlord but then unless it has character no warlord trait.

Ah, I had forgotten the removal of Imperium only as the keyword for a battleforged detachment. I almost always run mono codex (I do make the occasional Guard + Blood Angels lists but they're both in their own detachments). I had planned on running a pair of Company Commanders alongside a Lord Commissar in the Supreme Command with a Command squad as the elite and the Freeblade as my LoW in the detachment, then allying in a Battalion detachment of Guard with Tank Commanders, lots of infantry squads, a Valkyrie, a couple of armored sentinels, and a couple of artillery tanks. Just a blend of armor and infantry to help back the knight up at range.

I can just run the Battalion with a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment. I'll get fewer orders perhas, but I can live with that.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah shadowsword wrecks many targets. Of course castellan vs shadowsword duel is likely to end up in castellan win even if shadowsword gets to shoot first. 3d3=6 shots, 3 hits, let's say 3 wounds. 3++ so 1 through, 2d6 damage=7. Result firepower about halves damage with volcano lance plus plasma + shoulder+carapace. Did shadowsword have titanic keyword btw? If yes even better. No way shadowsword can take that firepower long enough to take out target. Even 2nd turn won't be enough.

What questor btw wrecks leman russ without even using even half the guns it has? As it is with russes volcano lance alone makes up points in 4 turns. Add in no CP battery for enemy IG after turn 1.

Except a Shadowsword comes in the 400 points range, doesn't eat CP like a fat kid at Hometown Buffet, and can get the Catachan or Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrine? Why wouldn't you take the option that requires less investment and has fewer dependencies and greater efficiency?

Comparing a Castellan to a Shadowsword is a bit unfair. The former does cost 50% more than the Shadowsword and is specialized to kill something like the Shadowsword. (I mentioned the Shadowsword because it's a better choice than the Castellan in almost every situation.)

Most of the Questoris Knights can close into CC with a Leman Russ, which effectively kills it even if it does not actually do so that turn.

U02dah4 wrote:
Same toughnesd same saves fewer W how are they more durable.

Sure its more pricey to protect them but if you doiuble brigade you can do it for a couple of turns if thats your priority

They have a 3++ invulnerable save, whereas the Dominus is stuck with 4++ unless you spend 3 CP, which is exorbitant. You will quickly run out of CP to use.

Your 3 CP is not going to be spent giving your Dominus a better invulnerable save. It is going to be spent doing two or three other, more impactful things with your other Knights. (Taking a Dominus creates a risk mitigation and opportunity cost nightmare.)

Even 600 pts shadowswords won't kill dominus. And dominus isn't particularly shv specialist.

As fmr questor vs russ...that requires h2h weapon rather than gun and will happen t3 earliest short of super luck on advance and charge rolls. Russ begins game like 36" away and moves away. Have fun chasing one. Plus you need to clear chaff to get past first and exposes knights on the rote

And if enemy points volcano cannon at it 3cp(2 ig bat plus regen) is cheap price

Suzuteo wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I would have to respectfully disagree. For maybe 100 points more, Dominus class is far more shooty than any of the regular knights. The fire power output is far higher. Not to mention the option to use that siegebreaker missile to snipe an important character is pricelss. So, If you want efficiency in fire output, Dominus outperforms regular knights by shots and damage per point. The only issue would be that if you have enough fire power to destroy a Dominus in one turn, then its more points lost compared to losing a regular knight to shooting on turn 1. However, nowadays, with the strategem on ion shields to give +1 save, and the warlord trait of 4++, its not so easy to destroy a knight, much less a Dominus class in one turn of shooting. I mean, we are talking about a 28W, T8, 4++ (upgradable to 3++).

Your point only makes sense if you're set on running Knights. But there are a ton of more efficient shooting vehicles that you take for 600 points. (Shadowswords are an easy example.) Really, you have to get your Knights into CC to make their points back. This was the case before the codex, and even more so after the codex, since the best improvements are going toward Questoris Knights with a Thunderstrike Gauntlet.

Shieldbreaker Missiles look better on paper than in practice. But they are one shot per turn, one use per battle, cost 2CP, and might not even hit.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

Seriously?! What the hell for?

Yeah. You must have missed that. But the math easily bears out that Questoris Knights are much more durable than Dominus Knights. For example, they take 30% more lascannon shots.

Knights are cool, knights are fun, and this is a knight tactica thread. Why wouldn't I want to discuss running knights... lol They might not be the most efficient shooting unit in the entire 40k universe, but they don't have to be. Everything has its own individual strengths. If everyone was only going strictly for shootiest unit, then everyone would only play one single army... That's not the case right?

They just need to good enough. And I think that with all the buffs IK has received, they are "good enough" now. I just watched another battle report last night. a 4 knight army went up against a Ynnari force (2000 pts both) with 3 squads of dark reapers and altoic goodness and illanari characters and psykers. The knight force didn't even run any Dominus units, but it still won in the end. It tabled the Ynnari force.

You can only use the strategem to buff ion saves on one knight so if your buffing your questoris your not buffing your dominous. Your also not buffing it indefinitely if you run a knight at 3++ its still going to take damage and eventually its not worth it

It also means that only 1 questoris is a 3++ the rest are 5++ and guess who is getting shot first

Yes it is more costly to buff the dominous but you can so its disingenuous to say its less tough its just tactically poor to buff its invul so why not give it the 2+ armour save and the ++'s to another knight

As a solo knight though 2+ 4++ 6+++ 28W is pretty tough


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyone considered going heavy Amigers instead of heavy knights? I know Amigers in a supreme command detachment don't get the cp. But the fire power of a Helverin is no joke. Its the equivalent of two predator tank autocannons for just 174 points.

6 Helverins cost 1,044 points and packs the equivalent of 12 predator tank autocannons. That's 24d3 shots.with each shot doing 3 damage. @_@

With the armigers I don't think its the case of or but of and - you get more value out of a warlord trait and relic on a galant than an armager but when I look at what id build armigers are definitely a great choice for non characters or freeblades
1 crusader
1 warden
1 gallant
1 armager freeblade
1 armager

A list of 9 armagers and 2 helvarins would be cool but dont overdo it on the helvarins sure all that 3 damage sounds awesome against vehicles but when you meet that horde army your 6 helvarins only have enough firepower to kill 108 pts of guardsman and will never make their points back.

My opinion on the Dominus class:

Valliant is good, because the flamer solves problems knights have. Flyers, horde infantry and -1/2/3 to hit things. (Hemlocks).
The Harpoon is just a gimmick, but if you are close enough, it can pop a transport per turn.

Castellan seems to weak for me. He is just good with Cawl's wrath. With this relic he should be pretty good.

On the other hand, I only recommend Dominus Knights for character sniping.

Hemlock gets pretty much wrecked by Castellan. Auto hit yes but hitting like a brick when you hit is also good way. It packs enough shots to land hits and each hit hurts.

Oh and btw mechanicum traits and strategems are better than knight house so that Cawl's wrath is accessible. Or just forget household traditions. Though main point of interest is volcano lance. Plasma is just a bonus

Questoris knights give you a far more durable army because they are so much cheaper. You get a lot more T8 wounds across your list by taking them. Armigers give you even more wounds per point, though at only T7 they aren’t quite as valuable.

You do get the 4++ to stick on one knight though. The Castellan is a great candidate for that.

However, there are two ways to make your knights live a long time. One is to be tough. The other is to kill the things that threaten you, fast. Castellans are good at this. Valiants are terrible at it.

I’ve watched a couple of batreps now featuring valiants. Tabletop tactics have one in which when a valiant does almost nothing in turns 1 and 2. After that it starts to have fun, killing mortarion and a bunch of other stuff. In another report against nids the valiant gets taken out in cc.

Overall I’m not convinced that either is a “must have”. I do think the Castellan is useful because it looks like it wins duels against the kinds of things that usually scare knights. The valiant’s problem is that going near the enemy is risky and slow. A house raven one with landstrider and a 2+ save would be my choice I think, so that it could get around the board.

Yeah neither are must have's which is great.

And I agree on valiant having trouble doing much early. It has threat range of 28" to begin with. That's easily ignored on gunlines. If gunline doesn't want you need at least 4" advance roll to get anything and even then first target will be cheap chaff.

Castellan meanwhile at least can threaten from T1 on the word go and thanks to size and 8th ed LOS rules not many places on board where you can hide anything but basic infantry. And if those are squishy characters(ork weirboys, IG CP battery etc) even that won't be protection.

Suzuteo wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
I feel that results might not bear out this lack of faith in the Valiant.

I think you can thunder it up the middle of the board flaming stuff and sniping a character a turn, charging anything within range just to get the additional movement distance, then when it dies use the stratagem to make it 50% likely to detonate and do d6 mortals to all units in 3d6" range. (edit this is not entirely accurate... assuming no rerolls I think it is 75% chance to blow up but only 25% chance to blow 3d6)

It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

At the absolute worst it is a total zone denial tool as your opponent will be spending a considerable amount of energy trying to stay more than 20"-28" away from it so they won't get harpooned and cremated next turn.

The thing about a Knight is that you have to eliminate threats to it to allow it to make back it's points. I doubt any Knight is going to kill more than 400 points worth of units without massive support. That's ultimately why I don't think Knights will be successful alone except against unprepared armies. There is also an efficiency problem because we can only use Full Tilt and Ion Shield once per phase. Fortunately, depending on the wording, Raven stratagem can be spammed because it affects multiple phases throughout the turn. Definitely use once during the Psychic phase and again in Movement and possibly again in Shooting.

That being said, the huge advantage of Mechanicum Knights means that we almost guaranteedly will be partnered with AdMech. Stygies Dragoons and Electro-Priests are probably our best bet for alpha striking. Kastelan Robots handle hordes.

with a single knight elimination of threats quickly is a priority because they’re all going after your one knight.... when you have 2-3 and a bunch of armigers that story changes rapidly. Also the opponent has to choose whether to shoot the 4++ knight or the 2+/5++ first and bank on whether or not you’ll blow rotate ion shields on the wrong one. And then after that head game is done the armigers that haven’t been shot at ride in and wreck face in cc

Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

tneva82 wrote:
Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

not at will any time it’s targeted you can pop it, so you can weather one to bait them into thinking you’ll let that one go, then pop it when they start the big guns, now they’ve wasted at minimum 2 units shooting and have to choose if they’re going to keep firing at the same one

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah neither are must have's which is great.

And I agree on valiant having trouble doing much early. It has threat range of 28" to begin with. That's easily ignored on gunlines. If gunline doesn't want you need at least 4" advance roll to get anything and even then first target will be cheap chaff.

Castellan meanwhile at least can threaten from T1 on the word go and thanks to size and 8th ed LOS rules not many places on board where you can hide anything but basic infantry. And if those are squishy characters(ork weirboys, IG CP battery etc) even that won't be protection.

Hmmm, 28 inches seem like a pretty big threat range to me. And even if it can't bring all of its guns to bear on turn 1, it will definitely be able to do so on turn 2. The guns it has on its carapace are substantial. Let's say we go 3 siege breaker cannons. That's the equivalent of having 6 predator tank autocannons shooting on turn 1. I think that's not too shabby for turn 1 shooting from the Valiant. Turn 2 onwards, we will then add the awesome firepower of the confragation cannon and that ridiculous spear, and the 4 melta guns.

And this is of course, assuming the opposing player knows how scary that confrag cannon is, and has purposely positioned himself far back enough to be out of that 28 inch threat range turn 1. To me, both the Dominus models fufill two different roles while being awesome at shooting in general, and tough to kill as well. So, if I could, I would choose to run both.

I am leaning towards a tricked out melee Gallant (very cheap), and then using the points saved for a Valiant and a Castellan. Which one would the opponent want to focus on? With the landstrider warlord trait, the Gallant could potentially be right in their face turn 1, The Castellan is firing all its ranged weapons turn 1, while the Valiant is moving into the middle of the board, creating a huge area denial midboard while providing supporting fire as well.

Give all 3 knights defensive artifacts. I expect to be shot at. With all the new heirlooms and warlord traits and such, IK just got a lot more durable to shooting while being able to handle a lot of different situations now. For example, the Gallant can have landstrider trait and Sanctuary heirloom (5++ in melee). If shot at, I will spend the 1 cp to raise its Ion shields to 4++. Valiant will take the Ion bulwark warlord trait and use Traitor's Pyre. So, that has a 4++ as well. The Castellan will use the Armour of the Sainted Ion giving it a 2+, 5++. All three will be pretty durable.

gendoikari87 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

not at will any time it’s targeted you can pop it, so you can weather one to bait them into thinking you’ll let that one go, then pop it when they start the big guns, now they’ve wasted at minimum 2 units shooting and have to choose if they’re going to keep firing at the same one

You fire your AT guns from lesser to bigger. Until he pops all your previous guns have got through without ion shield. If knight intercepts then not only you got previously guns without ion shield now you can fire(say that volcano cannon) at another target all together.

Just wanted to bring up the Atropos, the strongest CC Knight in the game, precodex. While it's lost that spot to a pimped out Gallant, it does benefit hugely from the advance&charge strat, as its base move is 14" and it advances 2d6".

This means that if he has a target within 30" he has a pretty great chance of getting it in CC that turn. That's a mighty big threat area. For this reason, I think the Atropos might be best suited to House Raven, purely to unlock the shoot+advance trait. One of his guns has a range of 9" too, so it synergises well with it.

The guy is now a real landstrider.