Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Atrapos... strongest CC Knight?

Am I missing something?

Isn't the Lancer, undoubtedly, the strongest CC Knight purely through virtue of an innate 4++ (Now can be 3++) In melee and ranged?

Or do you simply mean the strongest close range Knight, not necessarily close combat?

Edit: Yes. I missed that the gun had a melee mode.

The Atropos can be 3++ vs shooting and 4++ in melee (4++ and 5++ normally) can reroll hits and wounds vs MC, vehicles and buildings rather than just hits on the charge.

However, I agree, the Lancer is better in melee due to the fact it can be 3++ in melee (2++ if you rotate, I think?) and the -1 to hit.

The Atropos gets there easier and has better guns on the way in, though.

The Atropos beats the Lancer because it gets to reroll all failed hits and wounds in CC with monsters and vehicles, whereas the Lancer only rerolls hits in the same situation, if it charged.

However, as you point out, the Lancer gets a 4++ in CC, 3++ with the strat, as opposed to 5++/4++. I prefer his 3++ against shooting though.

Finally, the Atropos has two actually quite nice guns.

Hey, they're both great, but I went for the Atropos because reroll hits and wounds is scary. Now the guy can hoof it 30" to be in CC in turn one, shooting on the way with no penalty, he's just got a new lease of life.

gendoikari87 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

not at will any time it’s targeted you can pop it, so you can weather one to bait them into thinking you’ll let that one go, then pop it when they start the big guns, now they’ve wasted at minimum 2 units shooting and have to choose if they’re going to keep firing at the same one

Dude. Would you fall for this trick? Never make strategies that assume your opponent is dumber than you.

In any case, defending three Knights with one stratagem is impossible at high level play. It's made even more difficult if the one the opponent opens up on is a Dominus or Imperialis Knight. The former because you have to commit 3CP to the defense. The latter because you don't have any margin of error for that damage table.

Oh, and those of you arguing three Knights are easier to defend than one need to work on your risk management skills. Instead of using mutually supporting units with diverse strengths and weaknesses to execute a strategy, you're doubling down on one set of strengths and weaknesses and mistaking redundancy for efficacy. I would be shocked if a Knight Lance ever made it to the last table in the state that they're in.

So whats the best setup for a gallant? the better save relic?

Personally I plan to run mine as House Raven to complement my Ad Mech army, Landstrider WL trait for the +2 to advances and charges, the Paragon Gauntlet, a Stormspear Rocket Pod, and a meltagun. Run up the field turn 1 and get a good chance at a turn 1 charge, Rotate Ion Shields for a 4++ because he's going to be a big target, and then proceed to smash face.

It appears that you get Rotate Ion Shields for 1cp on the Dominus if you take the Dominus as a Knight of the Cog in an AdMech detachment. Because GW doesn’t read their own rules.

SJ

Any way to buff Knights with psychic support so far?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It appears that you get Rotate Ion Shields for 1cp on the Dominus if you take the Dominus as a Knight of the Cog in an AdMech detachment. Because GW doesn’t read their own rules.

SJ

Purely raw, I don't believe the Dominuses would get access to any strategems from the admech codex, as they're from another book. You can see this backed up by the fact that GW reprinted all the relevant strategems in the knight codex. If they intended for you to cross reference the admech codex they wouldn't have bothered including the admech strats in the knight codex.

Even if there's some sort of legalese that theoretically let's you do this, a person would be an idiot to build a list around it right now. GW is FAQing codexes within a couple of weeks of them dropping. GW will update the admech FAQ to state that no, you must pay 3cp to rotate the shields on a Dominus, no ifs ands or buts.

So yeah, I guess you could theoretically use it for an event if it happens in the next week or something, but odds are it'll be FAQ'd soon if there is even any room for debate on this. RAI is obvious here, it's kind of like when the guard codex dropped and people were taking cover with tanks and using ogryn bodyguards to take wounds for tank commanders. There may not be anything saying you -cant- do that right now, but you'd be a fool to assume GW will let it slide.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It appears that you get Rotate Ion Shields for 1cp on the Dominus if you take the Dominus as a Knight of the Cog in an AdMech detachment. Because GW doesn’t read their own rules.

SJ

Purely raw, I don't believe the Dominuses would get access to any strategems from the admech codex, as they're from another book. You can see this backed up by the fact that GW reprinted all the relevant strategems in the knight codex. If they intended for you to cross reference the admech codex they wouldn't have bothered including the admech strats in the knight codex.

Pure RAW you get admech detachment you have access to that strategem and since it's keywords works...Strategems across codex DO work if keywords share with the sole exception of daemon deep strike which is specifically excluded and not even "this applies to all strategems across different codexes period" style but "this applies to this singular strategem" style.

Thus as long as you have ad mech det RAW that strategem IS usable...But RAI is rather obvious. We'll see how long it takes to change.

Since the Dominus route feels best left for the future, I'm thinking of expanding my Knight and Guard with a couple more Questors from Renegade and a pair of Armigers.

From the looks of things, I can get essentially this combination of arms on my Questors taking into account the limits on points and sprue parts:
2x Avengers
1x RFBC
1x Thermal
1x Chainsword
1x Gauntlet

So, here's the question. Is it better to run a pair of Crusaders and a Gallant or a mix of Crusader, Warden, and.... probably a Paladin I guess?

Why not magnetize the lot and run whatever suits your fancy for each game?

What is the best bataillon to add to your knight army?
Seems the choices are
1. Regular ig: 2 commanders or 1 Psyker and 1 commander, 30guards
2. Dkk: 2 officer and 30 guards
3. Mechanicus: 2 engineer and 15 rangers
4. Sisters : 2 canoness and 15 sisters.f

Everything else looks like too much points.
Guard is either the cheapest or bring much needed psychic defence. On the other hand fragile for holding objectives.
Dkk won't flee so but not much else
Mechanics can repair your knights and sanitation potshots might do something. They have several way to be a tad harder to kill.
Sister have act of faith...

So which one to take. Really are there to give co and hold objective, so we are not expecting them to do miracles.

tneva82 wrote:
Why not magnetize the lot and run whatever suits your fancy for each game?

Already did. That's why I talk in terms of which arms I have in my army and then I have to remember what knight that combo actually refers to.

Doctor-boom wrote:
What is the best bataillon to add to your knight army?

So which one to take. Really are there to give co and hold objective, so we are not expecting them to do miracles.

I like IG for cheap bodies, mechanicus for bringing in reroll buff auras for knights. Castellan that reroll 1's to hit sounds evil. D3 cawl's wrath that is very unlikely to overheat? Oh yes please!

tneva82 wrote:

Doctor-boom wrote:
What is the best bataillon to add to your knight army?

So which one to take. Really are there to give co and hold objective, so we are not expecting them to do miracles.

I like IG for cheap bodies, mechanicus for bringing in reroll buff auras for knights. Castellan that reroll 1's to hit sounds evil. D3 cawl's wrath that is very unlikely to overheat? Oh yes please!

Agreed, an admech battalion does sound good. Other than that though, you're basically paying a bunch of points for 5 CPs, and getting 5 drops too. I do think that's a problem in an army that wants to go first so much.

The problem with Admech is that you get the cool synergy with the knight of the cog stratagem, for one turn of the game, and then what? I guess you could do it again to give a gallant rerolls of 1s to hit in combat. But the actual rangers seem worse than useless to me. I'd actually consider trying to fit in an IG battalion and a tech priest on his own as an auxiliary, as that seems to be enough to unlock admech stratagems (due to the weirdly inconsistent way GW goes about writing rules!).

Sisters are interesting. They have Celestine, so at least one unit isn't a tax. A unit of hvy bolter retributors could also be useful, as they'll usually get to fire twice a turn. And the sisters are kind of ok for the price.

An option with guard is to bring some added firepower. I like how you can have a tank commander as an HQ, as he might actually accomplish something. Likewise a primaris psyker. I actually think it could be good to bring some scion troops, for late-ish game objective grabbing. You can of course just take 3 infantry squads and 2 officers, but they feel painfully useless to me.

I'm far from convinced that a battalion is a good idea. Maybe at 2k, so you can still have 4 proper knights with it, but if it's a choice between a knight or a few CPs and bodies I'd go for a knight every time. I can live with using fewer stratagems. I feel like if I bring 4 knights and I meet a guy with 3 knights and some trash infantry, I win. Thanks for first blood and a few extra kill points.

Ultimately I think there are two ways to lose as IKs: if your opponent can kill all your knights and if they can flood the board to capture all the objectives. If I'm taking allies I want them to help me with at least one of those problems, and right now I'm not seeing how that's the for a lot of these options. I need the allies to actually do something - not just bring CPs and then die.

This is why Guilliman has such potential. He brings 3CPs and makes a great warlord. He's 1 drop, he can't be picked out, he's a beast in cc and he makes nearby knights reroll 1s to hit for free. Oh and you get a mini version of landstrider with him too. It's a shame I hate him so much, because he'd be great if I didn't!

Accordingly, I'm looking at all-knight options for this 1750pt tournament I'm going to. I'm looking at two variants. One has a Castellan, gallant and 2 errants; the other has a castellant, warden, errant and two armigers. On the whole I think I prefer the second option, though there isn't much in it. Let me know your thoughts:

Option 1. 1750 on the nose.

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Errant 395
Thermal Cannon
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber

Errant 395
Thermal Cannon
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber

Gallant 367
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Meltagun

Option 2. 1748

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Errant 400
Thermal Cannon
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber

Warden 427
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod

2 Armiger Warglaives 164
2 Heavy Stubbers

To be honest I think option 2 is significantly better. The warden is a lot better than an errant, especially with its ironstorm pod. I'm not sure how two armigers stack up compared with a gallant but I like at least having the option of hanging back and shooting. The surprisingly long range on their meltas should help with that.

The trouble is, fielding 4 big scary knights at 1750 is very tempting indeed!

I'm toying with the idea of a Sally Forth Valiant. It solves a lot of his range and squishiness issues.

 raverrn wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of a Sally Forth Valiant. It solves a lot of his range and squishiness issues.

You can't Sally Forth Dominus-class Knights.

A house Raven valiant with landstrider is massively better than any other option, so far as I can see. The ability to get the harpoon and 4 meltas into range on turn 1 is huge.

Even then, I really don't like how you're forced to rush the enemy. Bad things happen to knights that go near the enemy - they get smited and people rapid fire plasma at them. I like the option to hang back for a turn or two if I need to, eliminating threats, before I move forward. I'm not a fan of any unit that has to act in a particular way, especially when you're investing so many points in the thing.

gendoikari87 wrote:
with a single knight elimination of threats quickly is a priority because they’re all going after your one knight.... when you have 2-3 and a bunch of armigers that story changes rapidly.

The opponent's strategy does not change when you take multiple Knights. It changes when you take units that disrupt his strategy to kill your Knights. One Knight, two, three. Doesn't matter as long as you also bring stuff to kill the things that the opponent relies on to kill your Knight or Knights.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also the opponent has to choose whether to shoot the 4++ knight or the 2+/5++ first and bank on whether or not you’ll blow rotate ion shields on the wrong one. And then after that head game is done the armigers that haven’t been shot at ride in and wreck face in cc

This is terrible game theory and economics. Always assume your opponent is going to make the optimal choice and then consider your optimal choice in response. Nobody who wins tournaments ever relies on their opponents making play mistakes, but always seeks to maximize the impact of his skill on the game state.

Furthermore, realize that Rotate Ion Shield, Ion Bulwark, etc. are SCARCE defensive resources that become suboptimal when defense demanded exceeds defense supplied. If you have one Knight, you can protect 100% of your Knight. Every Knight you add beyond that demands more defensive resources.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
A house Raven valiant with landstrider is massively better than any other option, so far as I can see. The ability to get the harpoon and 4 meltas into range on turn 1 is huge.

Even then, I really don't like how you're forced to rush the enemy. Bad things happen to knights that go near the enemy - they get smited and people rapid fire plasma at them. I like the option to hang back for a turn or two if I need to, eliminating threats, before I move forward. I'm not a fan of any unit that has to act in a particular way, especially when you're investing so many points in the thing.

You're not going to even want to get the meltas into range turn one because their primary targets are probably screened or deep striking anyway. Remember, Knights cannot move or advance over infantry. Only fall back. Also, without Ion Bulwark or Sacred Ion, your Valiant is dead turn one unless you remove threats to it. If most armies can kill Magnus in one turn, they can kill your Valiant too.

Smite spam is not too effective against Mechanicum Knights. Benevolence gives us an additional 5+ save from mortal wounds.

I totally agree with you on forced choices though. I think the best Knight is still the Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear, followed by Taranis/Raven Crusader because they have the option of plinking the first or second turn while acting as a counter-charger for your artillery. Death Grip with Knight of the Cog is 2 CP to almost guaranteedly kill a Captain or Space Marine character.

Mandragola wrote:
A house Raven valiant with landstrider is massively better than any other option, so far as I can see. The ability to get the harpoon and 4 meltas into range on turn 1 is huge.

Even then, I really don't like how you're forced to rush the enemy. Bad things happen to knights that go near the enemy - they get smited and people rapid fire plasma at them. I like the option to hang back for a turn or two if I need to, eliminating threats, before I move forward. I'm not a fan of any unit that has to act in a particular way, especially when you're investing so many points in the thing.

How fast that thing goes? 10" move, 2" landstrider, let's be generous and 4" for advance. 16". Unless enemy wants that's not range for melta nor harpoon. You aren't even quaranteed T1 flamer for anything but chaff.

Suzuteo wrote:

I totally agree with you on forced choices though. I think the best Knight is still the Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear, followed by Taranis/Raven Crusader because they have the option of plinking the first or second turn while acting as a counter-charger for your artillery. Death Grip with Knight of the Cog is 2 CP to almost guaranteedly kill a Captain or Space Marine character.

I think I'm right there with you, I like the Raven Gallant with a Stormspear a lot but I feel like a Raven Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet and Stormspear might be one of the best all rounders. The upgrade of the Paragon Gauntlet over the Thunderstrike Gauntlet outweighs the improvement of Endless Fury over a regular Avenger Gatling Cannon to me. Not only does the Paragon Gauntlet make it much more threatening against other Titanic units, it also makes its Death Grip more reliable since it's hitting on 3+ instead of 4+. I still feel like the Gallant is the best "duelist" out of all of them since given its 2+ WS and 5 attacks, the Paragon Gauntlet can one round another knight, let alone almost every vehicle in the game, fairly easily. It's definitely going to be a hard choice for me to decide between them for my Ad Mech army.

I think cheapo Gallant is the third best option. I feel the problem with Gallant is that its really dependent on getting into CC to make its points back (more forced choices). Furthermore, the Reaper is 30 points we're not getting back, whereas Endless Fury or Avenger is always useful.

Indeed, the key comparison seems to be:

Thermal Cannon vs. Gauntlet + Stormspear vs. Reaper, +1A, +1WS

Suzuteo wrote:
I think cheapo Gallant is the third best option. I feel the problem with Gallant is that its really dependent on getting into CC to make its points back (more forced choices). Furthermore, the Reaper is 30 points we're not getting back, whereas Endless Fury or Avenger is always useful.

Indeed, the key comparison seems to be:

Thermal Cannon vs. Gauntlet + Stormspear vs. Reaper, +1A, +1WS

Yeah. Gallant got nice boost but I'm not convinced it's good for TAC list unless the extra points open you up something good. In a shooty game h2h dedicated knight seems bit risky. Even with all the speed boosts T1 charge isn't quaranteed and def not against anything opponent doesn't WANT to get charged. So you are looking at T2 and even then if you don't have ability to clear chaff gallant will be clearing those first. Indeed T1 charge can be trap where enemy WANTS you to charge that chaff and be isolated.

Agreed. Hence my recommendation of Raven Warden > Taranis Crusader > Taranis/Terryn Gallant. Support it with 2x Helverin or Warglaive if you want the tradition.

I personally am thinking Knights may do great as the third element of an AdMech+Guard army.

I'm leaning toward Taranis or Vulker. Taranis for 6+++ and troll ability to bring back dead knight back, vulker gives rerolls and strategem looked nice enough. Either way mechanicum knight so that if I have ad mech allies gives me buff auras.

I have been saying this, so excuse me if I sound like a broken record, but a 50% chance to zombify your slightly more durable Knight is not going to be as impactful as being able to advance and shoot on top of rerolling 1s in every phase.

Definitely less CP hungry though. I may yet opt for Taranis Warden if it just becomes unmanageable, but so far, it seems okay to spend 3 CP per turn for top row stats and rerolling 1s.

Suzuteo wrote:
I have been saying this, so excuse me if I sound like a broken record, but a 50% chance to zombify your slightly more durable Knight is not going to be as impactful as being able to advance and shoot on top of rerolling 1s in every phase.

Definitely less CP hungry though. I may yet opt for Taranis Warden if it just becomes unmanageable, but so far, it seems okay to spend 3 CP per turn for top row stats and rerolling 1s.

Well yes but I'm not just for bringing him back(btw 75% with CP reroll). 6+++ means also 16% boost in survivability flat out. Plus maybe get extra AP for shooting. That might be nice for the relic gatling gun.

Advance and shoot is nice but it also makes you hit worse so it's not something I'll be doing all the time. I want my crusader to hit as much as possible. Not to mention castellan. If I pay 600 pts for castellan then by Emperor's Gog's I want him to hit with the volcano lance!

And besides it's also troll ability. Imagine opponents face when he finally takes down castellan only for it to come back knowing for 1CP(unless I missed that it's not available with that house) he'll shoot at full effect anyway Might not happen often, hell might not even be worth it if you want to optimize but lists here aren't super optimized anyway giving even flash gits chance to not be auto loss so I'm not even interested in optimizing every decimal. Sometimes rule of cool trumps absolute efficiency.

I dunno, Im a fan of Griffith, three extra stomps is pretty baller.

Yeah that's not bad but problem is charging in shooting game. It's also knight house rather than mechanicum denying nice synergy between them. Reroll 1's aura baby!