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Well, Wont be running an Admech detachment to go with them, so :p

My space bretonnians dont need peasants!

I'm sure I'll be running them time to time and since I don't do regiment/chapter/whatever hopping(nor multiple houses in same det. All my models have same colour scheme EXCEPT one I'll be using for freeblade) so future proof things.

Doctor-boom wrote:
What is the best bataillon to add to your knight army?
Seems the choices are
1. Regular ig: 2 commanders or 1 Psyker and 1 commander, 30guards
2. Dkk: 2 officer and 30 guards
3. Mechanicus: 2 engineer and 15 rangers
4. Sisters : 2 canoness and 15 sisters.f

Everything else looks like too much points.
Guard is either the cheapest or bring much needed psychic defence. On the other hand fragile for holding objectives.
Dkk won't flee so but not much else
Mechanics can repair your knights and sanitation potshots might do something. They have several way to be a tad harder to kill.
Sister have act of faith...

So which one to take. Really are there to give co and hold objective, so we are not expecting them to do miracles.

Id go 1 + 3 (vanguard)- 1 i can give mortars to so while they sit on the backfield objective they can clear some screen 3 because i can repair my knights and they are not bad for mid board objectives and both together because my knights are so CP hungary

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah that's not bad but problem is charging in shooting game. It's also knight house rather than mechanicum denying nice synergy between them. Reroll 1's aura baby!

What reroll 1s aura? You can have one knight reroll 1s once a game for a cp - then maybe again if you get lucky rolling for canticles.

Or you could just not bother with any of that. Cawl’s wrath fires an average of 7 shots, so you’ll probably get a single 1. Reroll it for a cp if you want. You risk getting several 1s that way it’s true, but with the admech battalion you might not roll any 1s and waste the whole thing.

To be fair, you do also get to reroll 1s for all the other guns using an admech battalion. My issue is that the guys in the battalion are so completely useless. 200 points for a slight buff once per game is nonsense.

This is why I think Guilliman is a much better option than a battalion. He brings 3cps an the ability to get them back when spent. He’s got a 12” reroll 1s aura with landstrider half mixed in. He’s one drop that can’t easily be killed, moves quickly and hits very hard.

Even then, I’m not sure I’d take him rather than another knight.

Knight of the cog is decent if you’ve got one knight in an admech army. Then it’s essentially a bonus. Using it the other way round requires too much investment.

Mandragola wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah that's not bad but problem is charging in shooting game. It's also knight house rather than mechanicum denying nice synergy between them. Reroll 1's aura baby!

What reroll 1s aura? You can have one knight reroll 1s once a game for a cp - then maybe again if you get lucky rolling for canticles.

Canticles had the reroll 1's? Yeah can't select more than once but then again with games over generally in 2-3 turns that's significant amount of game.

And it's not just plasma but volcano etc. Reroll's are big thing in 8th ed. Knights don't have natively that. Ability to have 1/3 of effective game that is pretty good.

To be fair, you do also get to reroll 1s for all the other guns using an admech battalion. My issue is that the guys in the battalion are so completely useless. 200 points for a slight buff once per game is nonsense.

IG guys aren't much better either.

And Guillimann is ONE model. That's 1. There's one big problem with 1 model units. They are able to be in one location only. With him you are looking at what 5 model army? Good luck holding any objectives. Your knights can't really move then as you need to hold objectives. With 6 objectives spread around that's a lot of ground to cover for 5 models.

Suzuteo wrote:
Agreed. Hence my recommendation of Raven Warden > Taranis Crusader > Taranis/Terryn Gallant. Support it with 2x Helverin or Warglaive if you want the tradition.

I personally am thinking Knights may do great as the third element of an AdMech+Guard army.

Why Taranis Crusader? Raven stratagem looks pretty sweet for a decked out shooty Knight.


Also carapace weapons: Which are worth and which not?

I put some recommendations for changes to the Knight Lance in Proposed Rules. I think Dominus Knights should grant an additional CP (though only one per Knight Lance).

Is Sally Forth with a Gallant with the Landstrider Warlord Trait a decent idea?

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: This is 8th edition you still need screens.

gendoikari87 wrote:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: This is 8th edition you still need screens.

Maybe, but with no T1 deepstrike they are definitely less critical for an army like Knights which is doing a good impression of a T1 alpha strike just by their very nature - high strenth, multi shot guns that reach almost anywhere with enough elevation to see over most terrain.

Plus unlike Leman Russes who definitely need screening, knights can walk out of combat.

If there's one army that could forgo a screen, it's probably Imperial Knights

 Silentz wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: This is 8th edition you still need screens.

Maybe, but with no T1 deepstrike they are definitely less critical for an army like Knights which is doing a good impression of a T1 alpha strike just by their very nature - high strenth, multi shot guns that reach almost anywhere with enough elevation to see over most terrain.

Plus unlike Leman Russes who definitely need screening, knights can walk out of combat.

If there's one army that could forgo a screen, it's probably Imperial Knights

While I agree, Knights can probably get away without screens in most of their games, but, competitively, I’d always run them with a screen. It just covers off 1st turn smite spam, and will help protect against the remaining 1st turn charge options.

About a Battalion to escort the Knight... (I'm thinking about buying some good miniatures to model them as Feudal World Militia)

What if I go to the route of Guard, without limiting myself to a single Regiment but creating a generic Astra Militarum Battalion? Since it's so barebone, I think the advantage surpasses the loss of Doctrines.

I was thinking about a Krieg Liutenants (with CP regen) [23pt], a single Krieg Infantry Squad [50pt], a Primaris Psyker [46pt] and a couple of Elysian Drop Pod Trooper [50 each]. Total 5 drop, 30+2 bodies (20deepstriking) for 219pt.

They does not have Doctrine, but are still legit since all share AM keyword.
You have a single Infantry that can take Order ("move move move" if they survive enough to run take objectives, or whatever you need) that ignore Shooting for Morale (because, if possible, they should stay out of LoS and keep an objective). You have a (light) psyker defense, good CP regeneration from turn 1 (otherwise you should play an Elysian Commander to empower your deep strike), +5 CP and, more important than all, a couple of Troops with ObSec that can Deep Strike in the later turn of the game to exploit the damage your Knight have created (eventually, they can also drop when needed to screen your knight from a nasty CC unit).

I think that set-up is more useful than a full specialized AM (let's say, Cadian with Doctrines), because if you go cheap 10 Elysian (without special weapons) are better than 5 Scion and most of your unit will stay out of the table the better part of the game anyway.


My full list will be:
AM Battalion as above - 219pt
Cerastus Acheron (Raven) - 495pt [Yeah, I already have it modelled and half-painted, so I won't field a Valiant.... yet]
Questoris Warder (Raven) - 411pt
Questoris Gallant (either Freeblade or Raven) - 354pt

Total - 1479 (21 point left for some special weapon and/or dorsal missile for the Gallant... and I still have to assign Warlord trait and Relics with a good amount of CP to make the knight more resilient).

Kdash wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: This is 8th edition you still need screens.

Maybe, but with no T1 deepstrike they are definitely less critical for an army like Knights which is doing a good impression of a T1 alpha strike just by their very nature - high strenth, multi shot guns that reach almost anywhere with enough elevation to see over most terrain.

Plus unlike Leman Russes who definitely need screening, knights can walk out of combat.

If there's one army that could forgo a screen, it's probably Imperial Knights

While I agree, Knights can probably get away without screens in most of their games, but, competitively, I’d always run them with a screen. It just covers off 1st turn smite spam, and will help protect against the remaining 1st turn charge options.

don't forget screens aren't just about protecting against T1 charges, they're good for objectives, stopping shooty deepstrike (like plasceptors which are a pain) and in general they're extra cheap wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cybtroll wrote:
About a Battalion to escort the Knight... (I'm thinking about buying some good miniatures to model them as Feudal World Militia)

What if I go to the route of Guard, without limiting myself to a single Regiment but creating a generic Astra Militarum Battalion? Since it's so barebone, I think the advantage surpasses the loss of Doctrines.

I was thinking about a Krieg Liutenants (with CP regen) [23pt], a single Krieg Infantry Squad [50pt], a Primaris Psyker [46pt] and a couple of Elysian Drop Pod Trooper [50 each]. Total 5 drop, 30+2 bodies (20deepstriking) for 219pt.

They does not have Doctrine, but are still legit since all share AM keyword.
You have a single Infantry that can take Order ("move move move" if they survive enough to run take objectives, or whatever you need) that ignore Shooting for Morale (because, if possible, they should stay out of LoS and keep an objective). You have a (light) psyker defense, good CP regeneration from turn 1 (otherwise you should play an Elysian Commander to empower your deep strike), +5 CP and, more important than all, a couple of Troops with ObSec that can Deep Strike in the later turn of the game to exploit the damage your Knight have created (eventually, they can also drop when needed to screen your knight from a nasty CC unit).

I think that set-up is more useful than a full specialized AM (let's say, Cadian with Doctrines), because if you go cheap 10 Elysian (without special weapons) are better than 5 Scion and most of your unit will stay out of the table the better part of the game anyway.


My full list will be:
AM Battalion as above - 219pt
Cerastus Acheron (Raven) - 495pt [Yeah, I already have it modelled and half-painted, so I won't field a Valiant.... yet]
Questoris Warder (Raven) - 411pt
Questoris Gallant (either Freeblade or Raven) - 354pt

Total - 1479 (21 point left for some special weapon and/or dorsal missile for the Gallant... and I still have to assign Warlord trait and Relics with a good amount of CP to make the knight more resilient).

Feudal world militia? Mordian iron guard would be good for that.

gendoikari87 wrote:

don't forget screens aren't just about protecting against T1 charges, they're good for objectives, stopping shooty deepstrike (like plasceptors which are a pain) and in general they're extra cheap wounds.

T1 change actually stopped shooty deepstrike a bit. T1 charges still plenty of ways that works. BA slamcaptain if he wants though not likely wanting alone. But say death company with pre-turn 1 move could work(ish) though not getting pasted if knights go first might be an issue.

T2 shooty deep strike is nice bonus though if they are used for screen role it's harder to screen them T1. If they aren't screened they likely gets pulped.

But objectives is golden. Well depends on scenario you play. We play lots of maelstrom so ability to have stuff near as many objectives as possible is crucial. Hate to have to move knight away from enemy just to cover that objective. Imagine gallant having to choose between charge and vp's...

So, which knights would you recommend for a House Terryn army?

 Astmeister wrote:
So, which knights would you recommend for a House Terryn army?

For me I'm doing:

Lancer
Gallant
3x Warglaives

The Raven stratagem Order of Companions affects the RFBC more than any other questoris class weapon.

Re-roll 1s increases your number of successes by 1/6. So instead of having one success you would have 7/6 success. Using this we can determine the effect of Order Of Companions stratagem on different weapons. Because, number of shot roll, hit rolls, wound rolls and damage rolls are sequential they all feed into each other (so we can multiply them).

Note as we are using ratios number of shots, ballistic skills, strength and damage become irrelevant.

Heavy stubber/avenger: rolls to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit and to wound it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 = 49/36 or 136%.

Ironstorm pod: rolls for number of shots, to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s for number shots, to hit and to wound it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 343/216 or 159%.

Stormspear pod/melta gun: rolls to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 343/216 or 159%.

Thermal Cannon: rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 2401/1296 or 185%.

The Rapid Fire Battle Cannon is a bit different. a 1d6 number of shots weapon with re-roll ones does increase its output by 16.66%. However, 2d6 re-rolling 1s means you go from 58% chance of rolling 7 or more to a 73% chance of rolling 7 or more. That's a 25% increase.

Rapid Fire Battle Cannon: rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 5/4 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 1715/864 or 199%.

So depending on the weapon Order of Companions stratagem can give you between 36-99% increase in damage output (assuming my maths is right).

So the avenger gets a 35% increase, and the RFBC gets a 99% increase. Obviously all these calculations assume you are shooting a target with unlimited wounds and theirs no damage getting wasted on overkill.

So with Order of Companions RFBG is pretty brutal.

Thoughts? Mistakes?

 Mushkilla wrote:
The Raven stratagem Order of Companions affects the RFBC more than any other questoris class weapon.

Re-roll 1s increases your number of successes by 1/6. So instead of having one success you would have 7/6 success. Using this we can determine the effect of Order Of Companions stratagem on different weapons. Because, number of shot roll, hit rolls, wound rolls and damage rolls are sequential they all feed into each other (so we can multiply them).

Note as we are using ratios number of shots, ballistic skills, strength and damage become irrelevant.

Heavy stubber/avenger: rolls to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit and to wound it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 = 49/36 or 136%.

Ironstorm pod: rolls for number of shots, to hit and to wound. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s for number shots, to hit and to wound it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 343/216 or 159%.

Stormspear pod/melta gun: rolls to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll 1s to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 343/216 or 159%.

Thermal Cannon: rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 2401/1296 or 185%.

The Rapid Fire Battle Cannon is a bit different. a 1d6 number of shots weapon with re-roll ones does increase its output by 16.66%. However, 2d6 re-rolling 1s means you go from 58% chance of rolling 7 or more to a 73% chance of rolling 7 or more. That's a 25% increase.

Rapid Fire Battle Cannon: rolls for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage. So its base output is 100% or 1. With re-roll for number of shots, to hit, to wound and damage it becomes 5/4 * 7/6 * 7/6 * 7/6 = 1715/864 or 199%.

So depending on the weapon Order of Companions stratagem can give you between 36-99% increase in damage output (assuming my maths is right).

So the avenger gets a 35% increase, and the RFBC gets a 99% increase. Obviously all these calculations assume you are shooting a target with unlimited wounds and theirs no damage getting wasted on overkill.

So with Order of Companions RFBG is pretty brutal.

Thoughts? Mistakes?

Rerolling 1's doesnt come close to increaseing your successes by 1/6 because when you reroll those 1's they can still role a miss on a 3+ your looking at 2/3 of a 1/6 increase. On a 4+ 0.5 of a 1/6 increase.

In otherwords on a 3+ shooting knight rerolling 1's to hit = 11.11% More success's

U02dah4 wrote:

Rerolling 1's doesnt come close to increaseing your successes by 1/6 because when you reroll those 1's they can still role a miss on a 3+ your looking at 2/3 of a 1/6 increase. On a 4+ 0.5 of a 1/6 increase.

In otherwords on a 3+ shooting knight rerolling 1's to hit = 11.11% More success's

My understanding is re-roll 1s always results in a 16.6% increase in success, regardless of the roll required to hit/wound.

Chance to hit on a 3+:

4/6

Chance to hit on a 3+ with a re-roll 1s:

4/6 + 1/6*4/6

So let X be your percentage chance to hit:

X + 1/6 * X

(1+1/6) * X

Which is exactly a 1/6 increase over X. Therefore re-roll 1s always equals a 1/6 or 16.6 percent increase in success, regardless of what you need to roll to succeed. If that makes sense?

I might be wrong though.

EDIT: Hitting on 3s has a 2/3 chance of success. Hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s has a 2/3 + 1/6*2/3 = 7/9.

7/9 / 2/3 = 1.166

So hitting on 3s re-rolling ones results in a 16.6% increase in the number of hits. Not sure where you are getting 11.1% from.

EDIT 2: Right I see where you are getting 11.1% from. Going from 66% to 77.7% is 11.11 more percentage points, but its an increase of 16.67 percent.

If you normally get 100 hits when hitting on 3s, you will get 116 hits when hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s.

For rerolling to hit and to w rolls of 1 it would depend on what you were targeting
You would take the 111.11 and multiply it by
On a 6+ wound 1.0278 = 114.2%
On a 5+ wound 1.0555 = 117.3%
On a 4+ wound 1.0833 = 120.4%
On a 3+ wound 1.1111 = 123.4%
On a 2+ wound 1.1389 = 126.5%

 Mushkilla wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

Rerolling 1's doesnt come close to increaseing your successes by 1/6 because when you reroll those 1's they can still role a miss on a 3+ your looking at 2/3 of a 1/6 increase. On a 4+ 0.5 of a 1/6 increase.

In otherwords on a 3+ shooting knight rerolling 1's to hit = 11.11% More success's

My understanding is re-roll 1s always results in a 16.6% increase in success, regardless of the roll required to hit/wound.

Chance to hit on a 3+:

4/6

Chance to hit on a 3+ with a re-roll 1s:

4/6 + 1/6*4/6

So let X be your percentage chance to hit:

X + 1/6 * X

(1+1/6) * X

Which is exactly a 1/6 increase over X. Therefore re-roll 1s always equals a 1/6 or 16.6 percent increase in success, regardless of what you need to roll to succeed. If that makes sense?

I might be wrong though.

That's right, You're wrong!

Think of the re-roll 1's as taking that same percentage to hit but applying it to the 16.6%

Hit on a 4+? You get 8.3% greater chance to hit because when you re-roll the '1' you're still only hitting half the time.

So hitting on a 3+ is a 66% chance of success. Re-rolling that 1 only adds 66% of that 16.6, or 10.95% additional chance to hit, resulting in 76.95% to hit overall.

Roughly a 2 in 3 chance without re-roll '1's' to hit vs. 3 in 4 chance to hit with re-roll '1's'.

This is why getting into Rapid Fire range is better than re-rolling '1's'.

Which would you rather have? One shot with 78% chance to hit, or two shots each with a 66% chance to hit?

The damage potential is greater in the second scenario.

EDIT: Guess I'm not the only one to take Probability and Statisics...

18 shots hitting 3+ with reroll. 14 hits rather than 12, 1/6 increase.

12 shots, 4+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

18 shots, 5+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

36 shots, 6+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

1/6 boost seems pretty consistent.

Order of companions is excellent. Personally I think it makes most sense on a Castellan with Cawl's Wrath. You don't overheat, you don't just get one shot from your volcano lance, and stuff dies - a lot. House Raven is pretty awesome, all round.

I don’t think knights need screens really – and in any case I don’t think it’s really an option. Trying to protect knights from something like plasmaceptors is basically impossible. Your screen will be shot dead in turn 1, or you’ll have overtaken them, and down the inceptors come down on turn 2. Smite spam isn't really a thing post-Big-FAQ. Good riddance.

A better idea is to have another knight. This way, when the plasmaceptors come down you can rotate the shields of their target, then scrub them away in your turn. Knights don’t like being shot with plasma, but inceptors don’t like being shot with avenger gatling cannons or rapid-fire battlecannons either.

For me, the fundamental problem with a CP-battery battalion in a knight list is that on the battlefield they are a liability, not an asset. Guard infantry are useless except in very large numbers, which you’re not bringing. It’s all very well saying they are just there to hold objectives, but how are you getting them to these objectives – and how are you keeping them alive?

The guard work better in other imperial armies than they do for knights, because those armies have other infantry. IG added to an IK army will end up on the receiving end of any and all small arms fire. They will give up easy kill points and maelstrom objectives that ask your opponent to kill units. They make it significantly less likely that you’ll get first turn.

Again, I’d much rather have one more knight that might be alive by the end of the game to claim an objective – or might have helped me to kill everything – rather than some dead infantry with flashlights lying around an objective somewhere. I genuinely think they’ll lose you more games through giving up first turn, first blood, kill points and maelstrom, than they’ll win through the 5 extra CPs and some extra bodies.

Instead I think you just need to embrace the insanity when playing knights. Anyone can deal with a single knight easily enough. Can they deal with four or five though? What if the knights go first and shoot dead the people with the anti-tank guns?

I like Guilliman because in some ways he’s quite a lot like another knight, but he brings a lot of other stuff to the table. You’d have 9 CPs and he’d help you regenerate them if you made him warlord. You get rerolls of 1s and +1 to advance and charges – so potentially up to +3 with landstrider. I’d actually consider running him with a house Terryn gallant, as you could then use the fight again stratagem (for 2 CPs on average) and the fight yet again if killed one too.

Or if points allow, take a small detachment of knights with a proper army of something else. Maybe a “real” IG army would be better if it had a Questoris or Dominus knight and a couple of armigers, for example.

 Mushkilla wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

Rerolling 1's doesnt come close to increaseing your successes by 1/6 because when you reroll those 1's they can still role a miss on a 3+ your looking at 2/3 of a 1/6 increase. On a 4+ 0.5 of a 1/6 increase.

In otherwords on a 3+ shooting knight rerolling 1's to hit = 11.11% More success's

My understanding is re-roll 1s always results in a 16.6% increase in success, regardless of the roll required to hit/wound.

Chance to hit on a 3+:

4/6

Chance to hit on a 3+ with a re-roll 1s:

4/6 + 1/6*4/6

So let X be your percentage chance to hit:

X + 1/6 * X

(1+1/6) * X

Which is exactly a 1/6 increase over X. Therefore re-roll 1s always equals a 1/6 or 16.6 percent increase in success, regardless of what you need to roll to succeed. If that makes sense?

I might be wrong though.

EDIT: Hitting on 3s has a 2/3 chance of success. Hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s has a 2/3 + 1/6*2/3 = 7/9.

7/9 / 2/3 = 1.166

So hitting on 3s re-rolling ones results in a 16.6% increase in the number of hits. Not sure where you are getting 11.1% from.

Try it this way I have 6 dice I need a 3+ 4/6 of the time i hit 2/6 of the time I miss 0.666% successess

Now add in reroll 1's

I have 6 dice I need a 3+ 4/6 of the time i hit 1/6 of the time I miss. 1/6 of the time I reroll now if it added a 1/6 to success rate then all those rerolls would be successes

But of the rerolled 1/6 2/3 of the time I hit and 1/3 I miss
Or an increase of (1/6)×(2/3) =11.11%
77.77% net success rate
Now imagine your knight is wounded and had a 5+BS

I have 6 dice I need a 5+ 2/6 of the time i hit 4/6 of the time I miss. 1/6 of the time I reroll now if it added a 1/6 to success rate then all those rerolls would be successes

But of the rerolled 1/6 1/3 of the time I hit and 2/3 I miss
Or an increase of (1/6)×(1/3) =0.056
0.3888% net success rate

U02dah4 wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

Rerolling 1's doesnt come close to increaseing your successes by 1/6 because when you reroll those 1's they can still role a miss on a 3+ your looking at 2/3 of a 1/6 increase. On a 4+ 0.5 of a 1/6 increase.

In otherwords on a 3+ shooting knight rerolling 1's to hit = 11.11% More success's

My understanding is re-roll 1s always results in a 16.6% increase in success, regardless of the roll required to hit/wound.

Chance to hit on a 3+:

4/6

Chance to hit on a 3+ with a re-roll 1s:

4/6 + 1/6*4/6

So let X be your percentage chance to hit:

X + 1/6 * X

(1+1/6) * X

Which is exactly a 1/6 increase over X. Therefore re-roll 1s always equals a 1/6 or 16.6 percent increase in success, regardless of what you need to roll to succeed. If that makes sense?

I might be wrong though.

EDIT: Hitting on 3s has a 2/3 chance of success. Hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s has a 2/3 + 1/6*2/3 = 7/9.

7/9 / 2/3 = 1.166

So hitting on 3s re-rolling ones results in a 16.6% increase in the number of hits. Not sure where you are getting 11.1% from.

Try it this way I have 6 dice I need a 3+ 4/6 of the time i hit 2/6 of the time I miss 0.666% successess

Now add in reroll 1's

I have 6 dice I need a 3+ 4/6 of the time i hit 1/6 of the time I miss. 1/6 of the time I reroll now if it added a 1/6 to success rate then all those rerolls would be successes

But of the rerolled 1/6 2/3 of the time I hit and 1/3 I miss
Or an increase of (1/6)×(2/3) =11.11%
77.77% net success rate
Now imagine your knight is wounded and had a 5+BS

I have 6 dice I need a 5+ 2/6 of the time i hit 4/6 of the time I miss. 1/6 of the time I reroll now if it added a 1/6 to success rate then all those rerolls would be successes

But of the rerolled 1/6 1/3 of the time I hit and 2/3 I miss
Or an increase of (1/6)×(1/3) =0.056
0.3888% net success rate

It really is a 16.6% increase in effectiveness. What it's doing is giving you an extra chance of success 16.6% of the time. That extra chance has exactly the same chance as you'd normally have. It's therefore 16% of X, where X is your original chance of success.

So for instance if you need a 6 to hit, you go from 16.6% chance of hitting to 19.4% - because you've added 16.6% of 16.6%. If you need a 2+ then you go from 83.3% to 97.2% - because you've added 16.6% of 83.34%.

tneva82 wrote:
18 shots hitting 3+ with reroll. 14 hits rather than 12, 1/6 increase.

12 shots, 4+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

18 shots, 5+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

36 shots, 6+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

1/6 boost seems pretty consistent.

Yes because your increaseing the success rate by 1/6 which is factoring in the chance of success

His calculations were based on directly increaseing the success by 1/6 giving you
15 hits, 8 hits, 9 hits 12 hits which is why yours are right and his isn't.

However if you look at your two 18 shot examples the first gives you an increase of 2/18 the second 1/18. Youve gained more successfull shots from rerolling 1's in the first rather than the second.

Its absolute success's that matter not relative ones

gendoikari87 wrote:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: This is 8th edition you still need screens.

This. Unless you want to find out how well your Knights stand up to Fusion Blasters and Meltaguns...

 lash92 wrote:
Why Taranis Crusader? Raven stratagem looks pretty sweet for a decked out shooty Knight.

Also carapace weapons: Which are worth and which not?

Oh damn. Now that I see the actual copy for the stratagem, I think you're right. Raven Crusader is the way to go. I was under the impression that you could use it in any phase to reroll all of the 1s in that phase. Turns out it's only for shooting, which makes Raven Gallant and Warden much less appealing.

On the other hand, Freeblade Warden with Legendary Hero, Weary Machine Spirit and Haunted by Failure is also nice. What does everyone think the second Burden should be? Weary Machine Spirit is a given since we can always cancel it out with Machine Spirit Resurgent.

Maybe Stormspear and Heavy Stubber.

Suzuteo wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: This is 8th edition you still need screens.

This. Unless you want to find out how well your Knights stand up to Fusion Blasters and Meltaguns...

If people want to deep strike melta guns to fire at your knights then you can't stop them. Screens won't work.

Two reasons for this. The big FAQ came out, so they are coming down on turn 2. So your screen of 10 guys with T3 and 5+ saves no-longer exists. Also knights have a move stat of 12", while IG have a move of 6". Screens don't work if they are behind you.

You cannot cover the whole board, permanently, with 30 imperial guardsmen. People are going to get to fire their plasma guns and meltas at your knights.

The good news is that a melta gun fired by a 3+ BS model does an average 0.58 wounds to a knight with rotated shields, outside of 6" (which they will be after deep striking). Even without the stratagem it's 0.77 wounds. So instead of stressing over something that's not actually a threat, spend your points on more knights, accept that being on a battlefield is dangerous and you'll inevitably take some damage, and do unto others harder than they do unto you.

IG Screening will work against some units if you don't get 1st turn.
But your mainly into them for the CP farm.
However a pure knight list is either going full tabling and its going to be very much superheavies vrs hoard lists or having to score objectives.
Another issue is psykic defence and anyone in a building 6.5+ inchs is can't be beat on.

My plan even though its more points is a UM battalion. Still get the 5+ Cp refunds and can take scouts and CC HQ's with deny the witches. Its not as efficient/WAC as thr IG CP farm but with the flak missle and Hellfire shell you also add in some MW ability that knights lack outside of CC bar a warlord trait that noone will be taking.

U02dah4 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
18 shots hitting 3+ with reroll. 14 hits rather than 12, 1/6 increase.

12 shots, 4+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

18 shots, 5+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

36 shots, 6+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

1/6 boost seems pretty consistent.

Yes because your increaseing the success rate by 1/6 which is factoring in the chance of success

His calculations were based on directly increaseing the success by 1/6 giving you
15 hits, 8 hits, 9 hits 12 hits which is why yours are right and his isn't.

However if you look at your two 18 shot examples the first gives you an increase of 2/18 the second 1/18. Youve gained more successfull shots from rerolling 1's in the first rather than the second.

Its absolute success's that matter not relative ones

So, it is essentially 16% more hits, but, if it helps to break it down here is how i generally do the math via excel.

Number of shots / 6 * chance of hitting - i.e (18/6)*4 for when you're hitting on 3's.
Total shots - total hits / chance of 1's - i.e (18-12)/2 - only missing on 1's and 2's, so chance of 1's is half.
Total 1's / 6 * chance of hitting - i.e. (3/6)*4
Add original hits to re-roll 1's to hit.


Bit of a ball ache at first glance, but it helps break things down in steps for people that aren't happy doing it all in one formula.

Ice_can wrote:
IG Screening will work against some units if you don't get 1st turn.
But your mainly into them for the CP farm.
However a pure knight list is either going full tabling and its going to be very much superheavies vrs hoard lists or having to score objectives.
Another issue is psykic defence and anyone in a building 6.5+ inchs is can't be beat on.

My plan even though its more points is a UM battalion. Still get the 5+ Cp refunds and can take scouts and CC HQ's with deny the witches. Its not as efficient/WAC as thr IG CP farm but with the flak missle and Hellfire shell you also add in some MW ability that knights lack outside of CC bar a warlord trait that noone will be taking.

I mainly agree with you. The only thing is that I don't think the IG will make any difference to a knights vs horde game, except by giving the horde player a few KPs and giving the knight player one less guy to kill the horde. If anything they help the horde player if they can charge IG and then consolidate into knights without taking overwatch. You can only fall back if there's somewhere the knight can physically walk to, after all.

Similarly the IG aren't particularly relevant if an enemy needs removing from the upper floors of a building.

There may be mileage in your plan, or others like it, of having an allied battalion that actually does stuff. Scouts are a decent unit - albeit somewhat less required post-big-faq. Having the occasional flak missile or hellfire shell to fire at things is no bad thing either, and null zone could make or break a game.

I'm not saying that you should never take allies with IKs. Just that I don't think the 180 point IG battalion is a complete no-brainer.