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Have we thought about running scions as the troops portion of the AM CP battery? The reason I ask is they can deep strike in later in the game to cap objectives after the initial bloodletting happens. That way they won't give up first blood and it negates your opponents anti infantry weapons. Still need a place to hide the commander with Kurov's Aquila though. The other bonus is your first few drops can be null drops as you place the scions squads in reserve.

My biggest issue is your HQ is still squishy and has no friends and you can't use the regen if you have a deepstrike HQ.
Your scions are still better for objective capture than infantry squads though Imho. But should you try and add the psychic defence or CC ability your paying close to marine prices with more drops.

1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.

2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.

3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.


Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
Have we thought about running scions as the troops portion of the AM CP battery? The reason I ask is they can deep strike in later in the game to cap objectives after the initial bloodletting happens. That way they won't give up first blood and it negates your opponents anti infantry weapons. Still need a place to hide the commander with Kurov's Aquila though. The other bonus is your first few drops can be null drops as you place the scions squads in reserve.

That's was my initial idea too. Only reason I'm not is because I already have a ton of space marines I've been looking for an excuse to paint. IMHO scions will be the most optimal choice to run with knights.

Danny slag wrote:
1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.

3 questor class and a minimum battalion of marines is possible working out exact points but its possible

2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.

3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.

only if you use the strategum to give him a relic or warlord trait and they don't get house hold traditions in aux

Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)

Answers in bold and don't do double auxiliary its jus flat out tge worst way to run knights even 2 plus helvine is better.

Ice_can wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.

3 questor class and a minimum battalion of marines is possible working out exact points but its possible

2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.

3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.

only if you use the strategum to give him a relic or warlord trait and they don't get house hold traditions in aux

Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)

Answers in bold and don't do double auxiliary its jus flat out tge worst way to run knights even 2 plus helvine is better.

Thank you!
More questions. Someone earlier just mentioned that imperium is no longer a keyword...so how can knight ally with anything if that's true? Seems like that would be the only keyword they'd share with anything else.

Kdash wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
18 shots hitting 3+ with reroll. 14 hits rather than 12, 1/6 increase.

12 shots, 4+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

18 shots, 5+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

36 shots, 6+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.

1/6 boost seems pretty consistent.

Yes because your increaseing the success rate by 1/6 which is factoring in the chance of success

His calculations were based on directly increaseing the success by 1/6 giving you
15 hits, 8 hits, 9 hits 12 hits which is why yours are right and his isn't.

However if you look at your two 18 shot examples the first gives you an increase of 2/18 the second 1/18. Youve gained more successfull shots from rerolling 1's in the first rather than the second.

Its absolute success's that matter not relative ones

So, it is essentially 16% more hits, but, if it helps to break it down here is how i generally do the math via excel.

Number of shots / 6 * chance of hitting - i.e (18/6)*4 for when you're hitting on 3's.
Total shots - total hits / chance of 1's - i.e (18-12)/2 - only missing on 1's and 2's, so chance of 1's is half.
Total 1's / 6 * chance of hitting - i.e. (3/6)*4
Add original hits to re-roll 1's to hit.


Bit of a ball ache at first glance, but it helps break things down in steps for people that aren't happy doing it all in one formula.

No you increase the number of successfull hits not hits theres a huge difference

You want total shots/total that suceed

I suggested scions as an allied option a couple of pages back. I particularly like how you can have small squads which you can fit into transports - which as a bonus are pretty good units themselves. Knights have a horde problem and you could do a lot worse than a couple of Taurox Primes for dealing with it.

Here's how a 1750 point list might look. At 2k I'd drop a prime and add a 4th knight.

Knight Lance

Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod

Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod

Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber

Militarum Tempestus Battalion

Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword

Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol

Taurox Prime 124
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Autocannon

Taurox Prime 114
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Hotshot Volley Guns

An auxiliary detachment doesn't let you pick a house, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't unlock stratagems. It's the superheavy detachment where you get to make one of your guys a character.

Stratagems would let you pay CPs to upgrade your guy, if you get them, but I don't think you do.

A better idea might be to take an armiger. You don't get CPs unless you bring 3 big knights but you get to make one a character and you do unlock stratagems, relics and house traits. I think this means it makes way more sense to bring a knight and two little friends if you're bringing knight allies than just the knight on his own. The armigers are good anyway.

Scions do seem the way to go.
Personally I'm going to have to ally in space marines because that's what I have.
Rough math my 1750 list comes out to essentially:

Crusader
Gallant
Armiger

2 watch captains
3x5 intercessor squads with an inceptor in each

The marine portion of that is 650 pts. Still would rather have scions, but intercessors with SIA and auto bolters are kinda nasty. Plus mine all have the shoulder shield that aesthetically matches the knights and looks cool, and looking cool makes your dice roll better according to science.

Deathwatch is certainly another good option. Your troops are ok and you can have a librarian too. It's an option where no unit is a tax or a liability. They even help quite a bit with hordes.

I think I'd personally keep the points down, with just 3 units of 5 intercessors. I don't think it's worth including an inceptor unless you've got a bunch of other stuff in there. If I was going to add stuff I'd put 4 aggressors and an inceptor into one squad, then leave the other 2 barebones with bolt rifles. Those are good units for 100 points.

Here's my own 2k deathwatch/lance list. I must say, I think it ill be fun, but both factions are CP hogs, so that might prove to be a problem!

One squad holding an objective, one in the razor with the WM, one deepstriking, 7 drops, 11CP.

SH Detachment ----
Cerastus Knight-Atropos
Knight Gallant
Knight Warden

Battalion Detachment ----
Librarian: Force axe, Storm Bolter
Watch Master

Intercessors: 5x Bolt Rifle
Intercessors: 5x Bolt Rifle
Veterans: Storm Bolter & Storm shield x2, Chainsword & Storm Bolter x2, Deathwatch Frag Cannon

Razorback: Twin assault cannon

I can just make my ultramarine batallion and Canis Crusader and warden fix into a 1750 list. But thats squeezing the marines down to 430 points. At 2k I can add a helverin and some carapace weapons and a few extras for the boots on the ground.

Mandragola wrote:
I suggested scions as an allied option a couple of pages back. I particularly like how you can have small squads which you can fit into transports - which as a bonus are pretty good units themselves. Knights have a horde problem and you could do a lot worse than a couple of Taurox Primes for dealing with it.

Here's how a 1750 point list might look. At 2k I'd drop a prime and add a 4th knight.

Knight Lance

Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod

Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod

Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber

Militarum Tempestus Battalion

Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword

Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol

Taurox Prime 124
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Autocannon

Taurox Prime 114
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Hotshot Volley Guns

An auxiliary detachment doesn't let you pick a house, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't unlock stratagems. It's the superheavy detachment where you get to make one of your guys a character.

Stratagems would let you pay CPs to upgrade your guy, if you get them, but I don't think you do.

A better idea might be to take an armiger. You don't get CPs unless you bring 3 big knights but you get to make one a character and you do unlock stratagems, relics and house traits. I think this means it makes way more sense to bring a knight and two little friends if you're bringing knight allies than just the knight on his own. The armigers are good anyway.

Taking Guilliman in a Super-Auxilliary opens Stratagems. Taking any Space Marine LoW opens Stratagems for that Chapter because it does, indeed, get a Chapter. I'd be shocked if Knights couldn't pick a Household keyword (even if no bonus) and Stratagems.

Danny slag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.

3 questor class and a minimum battalion of marines is possible working out exact points but its possible

2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.

3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.

only if you use the strategum to give him a relic or warlord trait and they don't get house hold traditions in aux

Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)

Answers in bold and don't do double auxiliary its jus flat out tge worst way to run knights even 2 plus helvine is better.

Thank you!
More questions. Someone earlier just mentioned that imperium is no longer a keyword...so how can knight ally with anything if that's true? Seems like that would be the only keyword they'd share with anything else.

Imperium is not a keyword within a detatchment it is between detatchments so can have a knights detatchment and a guard detatchment what you cant have is a supreme command detatchment with a knight and guard

Audustum wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
/Snip.

Taking Guilliman in a Super-Auxilliary opens Stratagems. Taking any Space Marine LoW opens Stratagems for that Chapter because it does, indeed, get a Chapter. I'd be shocked if Knights couldn't pick a Household keyword (even if no bonus) and Stratagems.

Just downloaded the codex to check. Found a couple of interesting things.

You do get stratagems for an auxiliary detachment. You also get household traditions actually, which I thought you didn't. The Knight Lances rule is seperate from the Household Traditions rule. All knight detachments are from a household and unlock stratagems, but only lances get you CPs and a character.

So this means you can take an auxiliary knight and upgrade it to be a character and/or have a relic. I'd thought you'd have to bring armigers to make this work but you don't. They do let you make the knight into a character though.

Interestingly, all knights in a knight lance have to be from the same household. You can't have 3 knights from different households in one detachment. This goes further than the restriction in most other codices, which let you take any chapter of marines (for example) but lose chapter tactics if you do. Knights flat out aren't allowed to. However Freeblades are a total exception to this. A freeblade can join a detachment with anyone you like, and it doesn't remove their household benefits.

Also you only get a character from one lance in your army. If you somehow took 2 lances (say by taking 3 big knights in one, 1 big knight and 2 armigers in a second) you'd still only get one character.

Freeblades do still pick whether they are Imperial or mechanicum - which is really interesting. It means you can access stratagems and relics that would normally only be available to the other "side" to what you've taken. So for example you could take an imperial knight lance but bring a mechanicum castellan armed with Cawl's Wrath, or maybe get an imperial freeblade Gallant for a mechanicum army, which could then use the "fight again when killed" stratagem.

I might well paint up a freeblade to have access to this option. I'm not sure it's really worth it for my Taranis knights, but it's worth considering. It would be fun too.

Interesting that you're interpreting the wording differently to how I did.

Knightly lance is one charictor per superheavy detachment.
Also the house hold traditions also state super heavy detachment. I read that as only the superheavy detail and not the superheavy aux detachment.

Ice_can wrote:
Interesting that you're interpreting the wording differently to how I did.

Knightly lance is one charictor per superheavy detachment.
Also the house hold traditions also state super heavy detachment. I read that as only the superheavy detail and not the superheavy aux detachment.

Oh no, you're right. It specifically says "excluding super-heavy auxiliary detachments" under "abilities". No household traits for auxiliary knights. And they can't be freeblades either, as those also come under the same "abilities" heading.

I still think you get stratagems though. That just seems to require Imperial Knight detachments. And you can have a relic if your warlord is a knight, or just by playing a stratagem to get one. note that you can spend 1cp to make a knight get a relic and become a character - though he wouldn't get a warlord trait unless you decided to make him your warlord... and I don't think it's too late to make that call when you play the stratagem. Dunno!

I got confused because it starts out in "Might of the Forge Worlds" by talking about "Imperial Knight Detachments". Only in the "abilities" section (for lances, household traits and freeblades) does it start talking about super-heavy detachments.

Still, thank you both for checking and writing all that up!

Mandragola wrote:
If people want to deep strike melta guns to fire at your knights then you can't stop them. Screens won't work.

Two reasons for this. The big FAQ came out, so they are coming down on turn 2. So your screen of 10 guys with T3 and 5+ saves no-longer exists. Also knights have a move stat of 12", while IG have a move of 6". Screens don't work if they are behind you.

You cannot cover the whole board, permanently, with 30 imperial guardsmen. People are going to get to fire their plasma guns and meltas at your knights.

The good news is that a melta gun fired by a 3+ BS model does an average 0.58 wounds to a knight with rotated shields, outside of 6" (which they will be after deep striking). Even without the stratagem it's 0.77 wounds. So instead of stressing over something that's not actually a threat, spend your points on more knights, accept that being on a battlefield is dangerous and you'll inevitably take some damage, and do unto others harder than they do unto you.

If people engaged in such fatalist thinking, nobody would run shooting at all.

There are plenty of infiltrating and scouting melta units ontop of the usual deep strike. Some Tau units also just straight up move across the board. Furthermore, screening other Knights or melee units from getting into CC with your Knight is important, as many Knight builds are most vulnerable in CC.

As someone who plays AdMech+Guard, let me tell you that Move! Move! Move! is the most commonly used order in turns one and two. And you don't have to move your Knight ahead of your screen if you know the hammer is coming down next turn.

Mandragola wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Interesting that you're interpreting the wording differently to how I did.

Knightly lance is one charictor per superheavy detachment.
Also the house hold traditions also state super heavy detachment. I read that as only the superheavy detail and not the superheavy aux detachment.

Oh no, you're right. It specifically says "excluding super-heavy auxiliary detachments" under "abilities". No household traits for auxiliary knights. And they can't be freeblades either, as those also come under the same "abilities" heading.

I still think you get stratagems though. That just seems to require Imperial Knight detachments. And you can have a relic if your warlord is a knight, or just by playing a stratagem to get one. note that you can spend 1cp to make a knight get a relic and become a character - though he wouldn't get a warlord trait unless you decided to make him your warlord... and I don't think it's too late to make that call when you play the stratagem. Dunno!

I got confused because it starts out in "Might of the Forge Worlds" by talking about "Imperial Knight Detachments". Only in the "abilities" section (for lances, household traits and freeblades) does it start talking about super-heavy detachments.

You get stratagems and relics for sure. You don't get traditions. You do get Freeblades though, I think. If you look at the Freeblade Qualities and Burdens, the only requirement is that your army is battleforged. SH Auxiliary is still battleforged; in fact, Lances also require you to be battleforged.


One important thing: You are only allowed to give Q&B to ONE Freeblade per detachment. ONE.

I like the idea of a freeblade Castellan rocking Cawl's Wrath with a pair of House Mortan wardens

Mandragola wrote:
Deathwatch is certainly another good option. Your troops are ok and you can have a librarian too. It's an option where no unit is a tax or a liability. They even help quite a bit with hordes.

I think I'd personally keep the points down, with just 3 units of 5 intercessors. I don't think it's worth including an inceptor unless you've got a bunch of other stuff in there. If I was going to add stuff I'd put 4 aggressors and an inceptor into one squad, then leave the other 2 barebones with bolt rifles. Those are good units for 100 points.

The inceptor was just there to add some more horde firepower and let them fall back and shoot if they have to screen for the knights. You might be right though and it's not really worth the points in many cases. Cutting those means room for better carapace weapons on the knights.

Codex in hand, can now fully clarify a few things;

1) Can't mix different Households in the same detachment which is a bit of a bummer. There's a rule explicitly spelling it out.

2) Freeblades do get Qualities and Burdens in Super Heavy Auxiliary detachments.

3) Knights in Super Heavy Auxiliaries don't get Household Traditions.

4) From what I can tell, the Outflank stratagem does work on a full three-strong unit of Armigers.

Interestingly, though Imperial Knights Super Heavy detachments get zero Command Points unless they have any combination of three or more Questoris and/or Dominus type Knights, the "example army" page common to every codex contradicts that rule. It shows a picture of a Valiant, a Warden and a Warglaive, and says;

"Comprising three Lords of War, this force....also fulfils the requirements of a Battle-forged Super-heavy Detachment, meaning that it goes to battle with an impressive six Command Points to spend on Stratagems."

Even the codex writers weren't sure how to handle the Armiger/Command Point situation Those "example army" pages are aimed at beginners; it'd be pretty funny if a beginner buys that set of models following the advice of the codex, then learns the army only has 3CP instead of 6CP because of the Knight Lance army rule

Caederes wrote:
Codex in hand, can now fully clarify a few things;

1) Can't mix different Households in the same detachment which is a bit of a bummer. There's a rule explicitly spelling it out.

2) Freeblades do get Qualities and Burdens in Super Heavy Auxiliary detachments.

3) Knights in Super Heavy Auxiliaries don't get Household Traditions.

4) From what I can tell, the Outflank stratagem does work on a full three-strong unit of Armigers.

Interestingly, though Imperial Knights Super Heavy detachments get zero Command Points unless they have any combination of three or more Questoris and/or Dominus type Knights, the "example army" page common to every codex contradicts that rule. It shows a picture of a Valiant, a Warden and a Warglaive, and says;

"Comprising three Lords of War, this force....also fulfils the requirements of a Battle-forged Super-heavy Detachment, meaning that it goes to battle with an impressive six Command Points to spend on Stratagems."

Even the codex writers weren't sure how to handle the Armiger/Command Point situation Those "example army" pages are aimed at beginners; it'd be pretty funny if a beginner buys that set of models following the advice of the codex, then learns the army only has 3CP instead of 6CP because of the Knight Lance army rule

I think at this point it’s got to be FAQ’d. Not a single person outside of the rules team can see why they have made it this way. That in itself is very telling

Even if they compromise and change the requirement to 1 Dominus or Questoris Knight per Super Heavy detachment, that would at least be acceptable.

I'm really happy that Freeblades do get their special rules in Super Heavy Auxiliaries, at least they got that part right! Seems like they are designed to operate as the solo-Knight additions to other armies, hence why the Freeblade rules are weaker than the household traditions overall.

Sorry if it's been asked and answered, but..

What place does the Forgeworld line have in the new Codex rules?
I have a Cerastus Atropos from Forgeworld that might one day be part of a Knight army but I wonder if they can even use any of the rules from the codex?

Ok apologies for my confusion over freeblades. It comes from the fact that Freeblades are listed under the abilities that you get in a super-heavy detachment. I now see that that entry is just saying that freeblades don’t break up a household detachment.

So yes, an auxiliary freeblades will get his qualities and burdens and access to stratagems and relics. It’s a bit weird that only one model per detachment gets Q+Bs though. It means there’s no point in a lance of freeblades and armigers shouldn’t really be freeblades either.

It’s good that auxiliary knights can get the full benefits though - it makes a lot of sense for freeblades to work on their own effectively.

@Mandragola
No need for apologies. Everything was speculation up until somebody actually saw the Q&B page.

I actually would have been shocked if Freeblades couldn't operate alone.

Anyhow, for lone Knights, I think a Raven Crusader is ideal, followed by a Freeblade Warden. Legendary Hero looks surprisingly good on one, but what about the burdens? Weary Machine Spirit is a given due to the Machine Spirit Resurgent stratagem cancelling it out at will for 1 CP, but what about the other? I am thinking Haunted by Failure.

Does anyone have the FW Terryn upgrade sprue and knows if you can put carapace weapons on them?

Does Landstrider apply to the warlord using it or just nearby knights?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Does Landstrider apply to the warlord using it or just nearby knights?

Both, it's all Knights from the same Household as the Warlord within 6", and as models are in range of their own auras provided the keywords line up, all checks out.

Caederes wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Does Landstrider apply to the warlord using it or just nearby knights?

Both, it's all Knights from the same Household as the Warlord within 6", and as models are in range of their own auras provided the keywords line up, all checks out.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was weighing up in my mind the best warlord trait/relics for various knights. I reckon I would take the knight seneschal trait with para gauntlet for a Gallant.