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I'm not saying Termies and Dreads are bullies. VV tend to be. ASM are. Tacs sometimes get to be.

I'm also not saying SM CC is good enough. But you'll get more mileage out of them understanding which is which.

 Melissia wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Termis are bad, avoid them.

Clearly the problem is you're only using one unit of terminators. I recommend using six units.

Jokes aside, they really aren't bad, you just can't expect to use them like they're jump pack assault units. You need to deploy and use them intelligently.

There's no intelligent use to Terminators, so don't purport as such.

The only useable terminator in the game is the SOT. Why? Because it's average loadout has strong shooting and the unit can be loaded up with 4 heavies in a 10 man. It is essentially a devastator squad that also has some power swords.

Every other terminator unit in the game has CC focus and sucks because of it. (low mobility CC units aren't just bad - they are practically auto lose if you take this unit) it wouldn't matter if they got thunderhammers for free - they still wouldn't be great units.

Aren't Poxwalkers low mobilitiy CC units? Didn't they do well?

Aren't non-AL Zerkers lower mobility than Termies? Don't they do well?

Termies are bad, but I think you're overstating.

Bharring wrote:
Aren't Poxwalkers low mobilitiy CC units? Didn't they do well?

Aren't non-AL Zerkers lower mobility than Termies? Don't they do well?

Termies are bad, but I think you're overstating.

Non Alpha Legion Berserker Marines aren't used without the Claw if used at all, and that's out the window now.

Also I want you to repeat what you said about Pox Walkers and understand why they are used. I'll give you a hint: it isn't for their melee.

Does it matter if their purpose is what you consider melee or not, in regards to if slow CC units are always auto-lose if you take them?

Those are kinda two very different scopes.

In the current meta, terminators are autolose imo. Too many 2 damage weapons.

Bharring wrote:
Does it matter if their purpose is what you consider melee or not, in regards to if slow CC units are always auto-lose if you take them?

Those are kinda two very different scopes.

They're taken for their screening and swarm abilities. They're a screen unit, not a melee unit.

Well this is pretty discouraging... I need some decent melee to chop up tough things like Necron, Death Guard, and to give me some defense against Space Wolves, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Dark Eldar.

That said, I am gimping myself by refusing to do certain things and add certain things to my collection. I refuse to add Custodes, Guilliman, tons of Scouts, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves to my army. If anything, I'd rather add things like AdMech, Assassins, Imperial Knights, or even Grey Knights and Deathwatch to the army instead, but I know there's a lot of 'meh' in those armies too. :/

It's tough following my own personal Rule of Cool while also trying to make a winning list.

Pox walkers aren't exactly a CC unit they are a 5+ fnp self regenerative horde. They are basically a swamp unit that ties units up for the rest of the game.

Why aren't tarpits a form of CC?

Outside of special chapters, some of the biggest losers in current 40K are things like Space Marine Assault Squads and equally things like Eldar Aspect Warriors who assault. They're all pricey and pale in comparison to 20-30 Ork boys who are dirt cheap and field 4-5 attacks a piece. Other newer codices seem to have some terribly good stuff too like Witches, etc.

I have two squads of 7 assault marines for my CSM and unfortunately, outside of the champion - they're mostly there to Deep Strike in and shoot stuff with melta/plasma...charging only to finish off a few models or tie-up larger/stronger units in close combat. I still take them because damn...they're cool (mine are all MkVI w/ old school jump packs, etc.). But good? Not so much.

I think the balance of this game is easier to see when you think along the lines of "ASM ~= Scorpians ~= Stormboyz". Or "Termies ~= Meganoobs ~= Wraithblades". Makes it a lot more obvious when one unit is underperforming vs you're really comparing the unit to something overperforming or in a different role.

But balance is bigger than that. Entire roles are invalidated in 8th ed by cheapness dominating.

Bharring wrote:
Why aren't tarpits a form of CC?

Because they could have effectively no CC damage and they still function.

Tar pitting is a garbage tactic that shouldn't be a thing, but given stupidly cheap body with invuls or fnp's and no proper anti horde weapons in the game it slows down the game and removes all player interaction with those units.

In 7th dropping a large blast from a vincator, LR etc removed said unit. Not in 8th a blast weapons are better against tanks and charictors than against hoards which is just so wrong.

Untill GW give armies proper anti horde weapons in 8th this swamping BS stays a thing. Which just make having fly even more clutch.

Aren't you basically saying durability shouldn't be a thing?

I like that building durable instead of killy can be a thing. I wish it were more a thing. MOst people would take half again the killy over double the durability on things right now, and that's part of the problem I think.

Bharring wrote:
Why aren't tarpits a form of CC?

You would call pre-Codex Conscripts a melee unit?

Martel732 wrote:
But balance is bigger than that. Entire roles are invalidated in 8th ed by cheapness dominating.

Buy making everything effective against everything, and every buff being a reroll, its turn 8th into a game of sheer volume of dice for the most part.

Its just straight up better to throw 60 dice from 60 models over 30 dice from 10. As your taking up 6 times the board space and lose 1/3 of damage output for each loss.

This is where everything should have a role, but nothing should be auto-win.

So a Lascannon should be a great option vs a Wartrukk, but a bad option against Lootas.

An ASM should be a great option against Lootas, but a terrible option against a Wartrukk.

Maybe give the ASM an Executioner, Powerfist, and Melta Bomb, and now it's better against Wartrukks than Lootas, for it's cost.

That's how it should work in theory, anyways.

drbored wrote:
Well this is pretty discouraging... I need some decent melee to chop up tough things like Necron, Death Guard, and to give me some defense against Space Wolves, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Dark Eldar.

That said, I am gimping myself by refusing to do certain things and add certain things to my collection. I refuse to add Custodes, Guilliman, tons of Scouts, Blood Angels, or Space Wolves to my army. If anything, I'd rather add things like AdMech, Assassins, Imperial Knights, or even Grey Knights and Deathwatch to the army instead, but I know there's a lot of 'meh' in those armies too. :/

It's tough following my own personal Rule of Cool while also trying to make a winning list.

I personally use dreads to fill the CC role in my army they have guns so they are doing a bit of damage the entire game and have ok durability for their cost. 153 points for a venerable dread with an assault cannon is pretty good,

I have found assaultcents to be quite good. They cost face but with the hurricane bolters and choice of meltas or flamers can easily pull double duty.

Bharring wrote:
Aren't you basically saying durability shouldn't be a thing?

I like that building durable instead of killy can be a thing. I wish it were more a thing. MOst people would take half again the killy over double the durability on things right now, and that's part of the problem I think.

No I just define durability differently.
Custodes and hive tyrents are durable units.

Throwing 40+ model units around on mass is not durability its just swamp building, and no fun to play against. No claiming objectives, no manovering just wait for it to be over when you cant keep having a hot dice streak.

I just think it's sad that supersoldiers with power armor and vicious chainsaw swords fill the same roll as guardsmen or poxwalkers, but worse. Way worse. :/

But everything doesn't have a role. Because guardsmen.

Ice - I'm going to have to disagree. Respectfully.

Reasonable sized Ork Boyz units in a someone-combined-arms list is one of my favorite armies to play against.

Gaunts flooding in front of a couple big Nids is a blast.

The pure spam of pure Ork Boyz or pure whatever else isn't so much fun, but hordes as part of an army certainly can be fun.

How do you keep them from overwhelming them while also trying to pull off something in their backfield? Or do you just try to thin them out and try to counterassault when you're out of time?

I have the same problem with pure big-model armies as I have with hordes. An army with one Knight might be skewed. I don't care to play against an army with nothing but knights, though. Win or lose, it just doesn't interest me.

Bharring that is Martel's typical response I would ignore him too. Guard is okay but not nearly at the level he portrays them as - it is a waste of time arguing with him.

On it's face, it may have seemed like that, but Martel's position actually does adjust over time. Perhaps not as much as we might believe it should, but he's not one of the forum-goers who can't be reasoned with.

I've found him to be a rational, engaging poster who's helped me flesh out my own understanding when we've had disagreements.

I disagree with his point here, or at least the severity of it, but the point that an overtuned unit would make otherwise-worthwhile units obsolete should remain in consideration.

After all, while the 7E CWE codex did hurt DAVU, it was Scatter Bikes, not the codex, that killed DAVU.

I don't follow the durability/tarpit CC discussion. Codex Space Marines have no durable melee units that can function effectively as tarpits. The closest ones are probably some form of Terminators, an expensive/low model count unit that very notably lack objective secured.

It's an offshoot of the rejection of the idea that different CC units have different roles.

Bharring wrote:
Ice - I'm going to have to disagree. Respectfully.

Reasonable sized Ork Boyz units in a someone-combined-arms list is one of my favorite armies to play against.

Gaunts flooding in front of a couple big Nids is a blast.

The pure spam of pure Ork Boyz or pure whatever else isn't so much fun, but hordes as part of an army certainly can be fun.

How do you keep them from overwhelming them while also trying to pull off something in their backfield? Or do you just try to thin them out and try to counterassault when you're out of time?

I have the same problem with pure big-model armies as I have with hordes. An army with one Knight might be skewed. I don't care to play against an army with nothing but knights, though. Win or lose, it just doesn't interest me.

I've played against hard skew both directions. And atleast most armour skew lists allow a level of counter play.

Mass cheap models with fnps or invulnerable saves can ignore playing the game beyond camping objectives. The only armies that have even close to enough power to chew through mass invuls or fnp are tabeling gunline builds and most of them can't do it fast enough in a competative timed game.