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Now that Chapter Approved is now just a glimmer in the eye of many players I thought I would return to the topic about paying for rules such as CA and the codex (more the data sheets for units). However, this isn't a thread where i sit here and rant into the void! I want to start with a blank slate and not say whether I think it is good or bad that we pay for additional rules. I want you guys to tare out each others throats so potentially the sacrificing might bring down a chaos god and reveal some kind of wisdom from the mess.

Although, to have a discussion, I need to have a leaping off point with a few potential things we can all debate as a community (basically topics I want you to keep in mind or discuss).

1. How much orginal content was in CA?
2. How much of CA do you use?
3. GW have been bringing out lots of FAQ (with a big one recently) for free.
4. How do other GW games handle rules in comparison to 40k?
5. What improvement did your codex give you over the index, do you think it was worth it and did you read any of the lore in your codex?

Full disclosure: I did not buy CA but I do own a few codecies from different editions even for stuff I don't main. Sometimes it is just to read the lore.

In addition, this thread was inspired by the recent words of a game developer in a video my friend showed mel thengame developer listed a bunch of things he believed should never be charged for and a few of those items were things GW does charge for. Again, not saying I do or do not agree (not sure I know the answer myself) but might be fun to discuss. Maybe might even learn something.

I like hardback codexes so I'm happy to pay for those. With CA I'm happy that GW charge for that too. I think of it like an expansion to the game.

So like you I want to turn up to a game with the BRB, my codex and optionally CA.

It's actually the free content I'd like changed. All of the errata and FAQs ought to be searchable online rather than spread across a hundred PDFs.

I wish GW would hurry up and fix more stuff so that I can buy more armies. I didn't buy CA because none of it was particularly relevant to my armies.

No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I wish GW would hurry up and fix more stuff so that I can buy more armies. I didn't buy CA because none of it was particularly relevant to my armies.

Unless you're buying Grey Knights or playing a hypercompetitive meta I'm not sure what's stopping you. Most armies besides GK are good. Also wouldn't it be better to buy the things you want now before they get fixed and there's a rush on them, resulting in a lack of stock that won't be fixed for weeks?

On topic: Nnnnah. But I won't pay for anything unless I absolutely have to due to my budget. I got the 8th Tyranid codex but thats more of a tradition since I own every Nid codex since 2nd Ed. All my other armies are fine for now with pdf versions since the current codexes (eapecially GK and AdMech) feel more like placeholders.

It is a miniature game. I want to spend my money on new miniatures, paints and terrain. All rules should be free to download and get online updates a few times a year or so.

Absolutely not. I'd even like to have completely free rules for my miniatures

Release more kits and allow more combinations via kitsbashing or conversions, that's how I would happily invest my money in more GW stuff. Not on more/better rules.

We already pay over the odds for the rule books as is we should not have to pay more for fixes.

It's their fault rules are wrong not ours.

CA for me was absolutely worth it for the missions. I do think the points changes in CA should've been a free pdf instead. With a game as big as 40k and a change as big as 8th I expect they'll need quite a few of these minor point/rule updates (in fact, I don't think 40k will or even can ever be "finished"). I think these tweaks should be free, while expansions like the CA missions can be charged for.

I am really happy with their rate of faq/errata nowadays btw. Stuff like the Trygon Tunnel rule being practically unusable for 3 editions should be a thing of the past now.

Personally no, I wouldn't be happy paying for GW to make improvements.

I've gotten my money's worth out of the Index books I've bought. They're out of date now but everyone I play against uses them so it's still fair and it's a lot of fun. I've really been enjoying 8th Ed.

Minor point changes and rule changes don't really bother me but I can see why it'd be important for competition.

The odd FAQ to fix a typo should always be free. I don't want to pay to have GW's mistakes fixed for me.

Paying extra for something that should have been there in the first place?

No
If I buy a car with a set of tires I won't pay extra to get a working set of tires a month later because the original ones were broken


This is NewGW with Nu40k and the game has still the same problems as 15 years ago
Why should I trust them (and give them money) that their next big update will solve this?

Just want to add something a few years ago a person i knew left GW (he quit because it wasn't working out for him or something). He told me GW was pushing the sales of rule books over models and was even giving special bonuses to store staff who sold more rules than models. That was years ago so things might have changed or it could be a lie/overemphasis from an employee but something to think about.

Personally I think GWs approach to fixing rules and points cost is disgusting. The whole argument they had for 8th edition was that it would simplify things, less books etc. Now what we're seeing is regular, major changed to codexes and major rule books that require either CA and / or FAQ print outs.

GW should offer a digital download with every book purchase. As rules get updated, the digital downloads should also be updated. It annoys me that they rushed out the Necron Codex with a major error by incorrectly categorising Deathmarks and Lychguard as troops - something that was clearly not checked before being sent to print and yet they then issue an FAQ 2 weeks later without even so much as an apology to those who bought the book - which isn't bloody cheap!

Only thing I'll credit GW with is there customer service for models bought. Any issues, they quickly resolve the matter - it's just a shame this approach does not apply to the rules team.

 Peregrine wrote:
And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

I think this is an important point. I, too, sat down to read the fluff in my new book, only to find that most of it was just copied and pasted from my much older book.

I don't see the point in paying premium prices for hardback books when a lot of the content is just copy-pasted from previous ones. I'd rather just buy the actual rules and read my old books if I want the fluff.

I brought CA and I like the new missions. The rest of the book was lacking in content I thought. I will buy CA 2018 depending on the content, but it's very likely.

For me I don't really purchase things because I need them or what have you, especially in this hobby. I buy them because I love having the stuff and because it hits me right in the nostalgia bone.

I gotmtold all the missions in CA we're just compy and pastes from older editions. Could someone correct me?

 lolman1c wrote:
Just want to add something a few years ago a person i knew left GW (he quit because it wasn't working out for him or something). He told me GW was pushing the sales of rule books over models and was even giving special bonuses to store staff who sold more rules than models. That was years ago so things might have changed or it could be a lie/overemphasis from an employee but something to think about.

Been saying this since 6th edition don't know how people can miss the obvious.

People can keep using old models for decades not everyone feels the need to update, but you have to buy the rules to play and those they can endlessly cycle the books with only minor changes to justify it.

I think that it's poor show to pay £30 for a Codex (or £50 if you'd like a fancy collector's edition), only for a significant amount of rules inside it to change and become void. I'd much rather if GW would just put out a Codex when it's all been tested and ready; I believed that the Indexes were there to let them do that while people could play, and while they made their money off selling the Indexes. It'd be better if we could skip Indexes entirely to have fully revised Codexes, but I'd certainly prefer it to having to pay for an Index, then a Codex, then a book to fix the Codex.

I have a couple of this edition's collector edition Codexes, and I mostly bought them because they're pretty pieces, but I do want to use them from time to time as well, and I don't fancy paying for what is essentially a proofread of something I already paid a considerable sum for.

 General Annoyance wrote:
I think that it's poor show to pay £30 for a Codex (or £50 if you'd like a fancy collector's edition), only for a significant amount of rules inside it to change and become void.

This 100%.

Much like a video game, I don't mind paying for expansions (i.e. CA). However, paying for every little rule is a bit... uhm... lame?

I'd gladly pay for a rules subscription if it meant they dedicated more staff to it's support.

Isn't the AoS app like 0.99p a month or something? Hell that's £12 a year I would gladly pay! Freaking hell, I'd probably still buy the codex as well for my main army!

Would I pay for patches to my games, no, would I pay for MODS, no, would I pay for cosmetic DLC or content clearly removed to be charged as DLC later, nope, would I pay for large DLC that has been well made and worth the asking price, yes.

This is how I take GW, the last chapter approved was not worth the asking price, does that mean the next one won’t be? I will judge that when I see it m, either way I won’t pay for patches to a game that doesn’t work, and 40k is just that for me at the moment, others may disagree of course.

GW's rules distribution is still stuck 15 years in the past. Peregrine is right here, the codex fluff is sparser than it's been in the past, and the rules themselves are ever to be in flux.

It's a cumbersome system and the value for money is terrible. GW needs to move to either a free or subscription based distribution model. Although no more than $5 a month for full access, and a competent in-house army builder.

Did I buy Chapter Approved? No. Did I snap a picture on my phone of the points updates for my armies from a buddy's copy? Yes. I don't need the missions, and I saw people discuss the minor rules updates online.

Like others, if the new Chapter Approved has quality content in it, I'd be fine buying it - but if not, I'll do the same next year. However, in all things, I will say I prefer an updated and (hopefully) more balanced game, even if it means the BRB (also didn't buy that), and my codices (did buy those) are slowly changed into obscurity. I keep my own updated document which addresses all rules changes and points changes.

So, I'll say the end result is a net positive, even if GW's methods are clunky and bizarre. Having seen this kind of constant change coming, I was a big proponent of the codices being $20 and softback...since we knew from the beginning we'd likely be changing information in them. They should have been cheaper and people would have been more comfortable writing in them and marking them up, etc.

I agree. I was actually excited when I learned the Index would be like £15. Then I remember going in store and asking to buy the marine codex like a mo th later and choking on my shock to hear it was double the price!

It's also interesting to know they could and have charged £15 for rule books but continue not to. Also, their prices confuse the hell out of me. £30 for marine codex that doesn't have much more than other stuff that ost £25. And the price of the digital books also cost £25 (which is a shock because digital work comes with literally no production costs). Yet, after doing some AoS research, most of their books are about £15-20 and hardback. If prices were similar there wouldn't be much complaints but the almost random pricing highlights something.

 lolman1c wrote:
Also, their prices confuse the hell out of me. £30 for marine codex that doesn't have much more than other stuff that ost £25. And the price of the digital books also cost £25 (which is a shock because digital work comes with literally no production costs). Yet, after doing some AoS research, most of their books are about £15-20 and hardback. If prices were similar there wouldn't be much complaints but the almost random pricing highlights something.

Most Codexes are between 100 and 150 pages for £25. Codex: Space Marines is 208 pages for £30 so actually much better value.

eBooks would be fine at the same price as the hardbacks if only they were updated with errata.

 lolman1c wrote:
Yet, after doing some AoS research, most of their books are about £15-20 and hardback. If prices were similar there wouldn't be much complaints but the almost random pricing highlights something.

Only reason why Age of Sigmar prices are cheaper is because they need more people playing the game. They have enough people playing 40K they know they can be old school and keep prices high and people will still buy.

At first I thought the format would be good. Now that we have to buy for point adjustments I am not liking. As many said that should be given free as Errata since that is what it is. We shouldn't have to pay for Errata. Missions and other stuff added to the game, yes I am fine paying for, but Errata? No. That just means GW can't do their job properly again sadly. And then charging people for the job they couldn't do. At least with the Big FAQ 1 the point adjustments are there in Errata, or is it in FAQ.

One more thing. Coming back to the hobby, one thing I don't like is I am always worried about making WYSIWYG. Instead of every 2 or 4-5 years of our armies being invalidated, it can be 2 weeks, or twice a year now our armies being invalidated. So now I just make Rule of Cool minis and if someone has a complaint against them, I will just not play them. That said, this is better than what GW did before. At least they are trying now. So if mistakes are made in the process, so be it. BUT DON'T CHARGE FOR IT. All point price adjustments need to be FREE.

*edit*

I just read the title said improvements. I believe the poll is misleading a bit. Yes I will gladly pay for improvemnts if it wasn't done on purpose like how we get DLC or expansions that should have been in the game originally like lots of video games do. But if it's more like Witcher 3 was done, then yes I would gladly pay for improvements.

What I don't want to is pay for point adjustments. Those should always be free through Errata.

Only willing to pay for new rule books/codices. Never going to pay for Chapter Approved-style changes to the game.

Maybe in the future we’ll have a true living ruleset, and they’ll figure out how to both charge us appropriately and a good digital format for it. I’d be happy to pay for that.

I'm only really happy to pay for new editions. GW doesn't do fixing very well so if something is like 8th where it's bad enough I don't want to play then I won't be interested until the next overhaul.