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2018/05/08 16:26:45
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Skaorn wrote: Seems like a lot of people need to become more educated about how adult interactions and consent work. No means no at any point.
It's a hunk of resin with some rules in a book, and I'm asking to put it on a table and roll dice. I'm not demanding you take your pants down, bite the terrain, and find a happy place until I finish.
Come on, now. Jesus Christ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 16:29:47
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2018/05/08 16:29:30
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Skaorn wrote: Seems like a lot of people need to become more educated about how adult interactions and consent work. No means no at any point.
No one is trying to rape anyone, here.
Sometimes being ignorant and scared of things in a tabletop game can be overcome with a simple conversation, and both people end up having fun. Don't know if you don't try. Can be totally civil about it, too.
2018/05/08 16:31:02
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
I find it annoying that I have to go to FW to find a competent dreadnought, but that's the extent for me. I personally don't own any FW, and am not likely to do so.
2018/05/08 16:33:31
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
tneva82 wrote: I go to store, ask for game. Somebody says he would like. However seeing what he has makes me realize it won't be fun game. I have in my rights to decline. I'm neither legally nor morally obliged to play. The GAMES ARE NOT MANDATORY! I have not signed contract anywhere I'm forced to play games I don't want.
You are correct.
However you will also be judged for that decision and if your reasons are ignorant, dumb or nonsensical then expect to be judged negatively.
2018/05/08 16:38:43
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Scott-S6 wrote: However you will also be judged for that decision and if your reasons are ignorant, dumb or nonsensical then expect to be judged negatively.
Yeah. That's the point no one is getting.
Look, there are tons of things I just don't want to play against. Straight-up Imperial Knights? No thanks, boring. Space Marine Bubble Horde marching across the table? Pass. That guy with the obscenely huge mob of Orks that takes an hour to move? Nope. The dude that smells like butthole, feet, and armpit? Absolutely not. The whiny guy? Forget it.
You can pass on anything you want. For any reason you want. But don't be fool enough to think that your reasons for doing so won't be judged, because I have the right and capacity to judge. And don't be surprised if your reputation for refusing games based on silly reasons like "I am not familiar with that model" or "some guy was a jerk on the internet about it" won't earn you a reputation and result in you being that guy sitting in the corner with his models all alone.
Jesus, man... do these people make friends at the FLGS? That fixes 99% of these weird hangups.
Also, EDIT:
What is the absolute worst that can happen playing against models you're not familiar with?
What, you lose?
Oh, no, sound the alarms. A game where 50% of the players in a game lose didn't land in my favor sometimes. Better torch my models and start collecting toenail clippings or something instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 16:40:51
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2018/05/08 16:41:47
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Not really
Person 1: Wanna play a game
Person 2: Sure I only play game type x if you wanna play with me
Person 1: Yeah Sure/ No Thanks
What you are advocating for in this thread
Person 1: Wanna play a game
Person 2: Sure i only play game type x if you wanna play with me
Person 1: WTF you cant play game type x and you have to play me in game mode y........ YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME REEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
At the end of the day, it boils down to a simple courtesy.
If you and I agree to do something together, then it's pretty scummy for you to have me come all the way to meet you and then you start enforcing additional restrictions on me after I've gone through the trouble of driving and putting a list together. A simple, "Yeah I'll play but I don't play Forge World" will probably just get an "Okay" from me on the phone or whatever, and I may silently judge you- but that'll be the end of it and you won't be wasting either of our time.
Read my first post in this thread. I said that it should have been set up before ever meeting at the store (imo it's on both players for not communicating well enough). But its especially relevant when traveling out of town, certain things are generally accepted in some areas and not in others. I'm assuming that the guy in question was used to nobody bringing forgworld and probably wrongly assumed that the guy wanting to play played the same way he did. The old saying of assumptions makes a@@holes applies equally to both players imo.
But regardless of this people saying that someone HAS to play you is ridiculous. Nobody has to play anyone and they can have any reason for it. They can not want to play against FW, unpainted model, because you smell bad, because you look mean, ect, ect ,ect. Its up to them.
Asmodios wrote: Your example about the online shooter is actually really bad. Most if not all modern games have an extensive in-game lobby if not private servers so you can play the exact way you want. Want to play only certain map packs?... that's fine just select those. Want to play without rocket launchers?.... that's fine select a server that does not include those. Even at the highest levels of MLG most games have a "banning" portion of the map where you ban certain maps/heroes.
What many people are arguing for in this thread is meeting a guy who plays a game online and only plays certain game mode such as (team deathmatch, no perks, no killstreaks). You ask him for a game and he says he plays the above rules and if you'd like to play with him that the only type of lobby he will join. What the argument of this thread seems to be is that the above player shouldn't be allowed to play on such a server and instead should be forced to play in a game mode with everything in the game unlocked. using your own stipulations the LVO shouldnt be allowed for having non GW official terrain rules.... You should go force them to play the correct way just like you would to the guy that doesnt want to play against FW.
You shot yourself in the foot with that analogy.
If the person wants to play no rockets, they join a private server (i.e. play with friends).
If the person Quick-Plays a game (i.e. sets up a random PUG), then he shouldn't be surprised when the quickplay game doesn't have rocket launchers banned.
Not really Person 1: Wanna play a game Person 2: Sure I only play game type x if you wanna play with me Person 1: Yeah Sure/ No Thanks What you are advocating for in this thread Person 1: Wanna play a game Person 2: Sure i only play game type x if you wanna play with me Person 1: WTF you cant play game type x and you have to play me in game mode y........ YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME REEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
No, actually. What I am advocating for is for people not to do this:
"Wanna play a game?" "Sure, 2k points?" "Sure."
~~Drives to store~~
"Ok here's my list." "Oh, that's Forge World. We're not playing."
That's not fine. If the person mentions ahead of time no Forge World, then it will have saved me the trouble of driving to the store to play them. And I will still judge them for being silly, because while they can say know, I can also judge them for their opinions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 16:46:38
2018/05/08 16:52:48
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Read my first post in this thread. I said that it should have been set up before ever meeting at the store (imo it's on both players for not communicating well enough). But its especially relevant when traveling out of town, certain things are generally accepted in some areas and not in others. I'm assuming that the guy in question was used to nobody bringing forgworld and probably wrongly assumed that the guy wanting to play played the same way he did. The old saying of assumptions makes a@@holes applies equally to both players imo.
But regardless of this people saying that someone HAS to play you is ridiculous. Nobody has to play anyone and they can have any reason for it. They can not want to play against FW, unpainted model, because you smell bad, because you look mean, ect, ect ,ect. Its up to them.
Well, dude- at the end of the day a 'Forge World' model is as much a part of 40k as a Rhino, Land Raider, or Leman Russ. So the big thing is, one person is coming with the intent of playing the full actual game. The other is expecting an edited, house-ruled version of the game.
If I invite you over for a potluck, and then freak out because you brought fried chicken and I only wanted vegan dishes- I'm the jerk for not letting you know.
Asmodios wrote: You wont play against me because i have FW? REEEEEEEEE play me now
Dude, no one is demanding anyone play them. At all. I have seen none of that. Hell, if anything- people who are Anti-FW not wanting to play against me sounds more like a bonus than a lost opportunity. I want to play all the crazy uncommon stuff out there. But what IS being said is "people have a right to question your reasoning behind it, challenge it, and if your position is stupid then it'll get ridiculed".
Plain and simple.
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2018/05/08 16:54:25
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Person 1: WTF you cant play game type x and you have to play me in game mode y........ YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME REEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
That is a far more extreme and hyperbolic argument than anyone has made in favor playing FW units.
That's what it boils down to though at its core
You wont play against me because i have FW? REEEEEEEEE play me now
I guess we all view things through a different lens, but I see most positions expressed as more reasonable than that. I see them based more on it being lame and judging someone for it than insisting on anything. ("It" being refusal to play against FW models as a blanket rule.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/08 16:58:20
2018/05/08 17:00:47
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Read my first post in this thread. I said that it should have been set up before ever meeting at the store (imo it's on both players for not communicating well enough). But its especially relevant when traveling out of town, certain things are generally accepted in some areas and not in others. I'm assuming that the guy in question was used to nobody bringing forgworld and probably wrongly assumed that the guy wanting to play played the same way he did. The old saying of assumptions makes a@@holes applies equally to both players imo.
But regardless of this people saying that someone HAS to play you is ridiculous. Nobody has to play anyone and they can have any reason for it. They can not want to play against FW, unpainted model, because you smell bad, because you look mean, ect, ect ,ect. Its up to them.
Well, dude- at the end of the day a 'Forge World' model is as much a part of 40k as a Rhino, Land Raider, or Leman Russ. So the big thing is, one person is coming with the intent of playing the full actual game. The other is expecting an edited, house-ruled version of the game.
If I invite you over for a potluck, and then freak out because you brought fried chicken and I only wanted vegan dishes- I'm the jerk for not letting you know.
Asmodios wrote: You wont play against me because i have FW? REEEEEEEEE play me now
Dude, no one is demanding anyone play them. At all. I have seen none of that. Hell, if anything- people who are Anti-FW not wanting to play against me sounds more like a bonus than a lost opportunity. I want to play all the crazy uncommon stuff out there. But what IS being said is "people have a right to question your reasoning behind it, challenge it, and if your position is stupid then it'll get ridiculed".
Plain and simple.
yeah there have been tons of people in here saying he has to play against FW. How you play this game is your choice. Do i play against FW? Yes. Do i expect everyone else to play against FW? No. Yeah i think its great seeing awesome FW models on the table across from me... but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Ill admit that he should have clarified how he played before the game but the funniest thing is it seems like it worked out just fine knocking down the points and playing a FW free game.
2018/05/08 17:01:21
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
I guess we all view things through a different lens, but I see most positions expressed as more reasonable than that. I see them based more on it being lame and judging someone for it than insisting on anything.
Another issue this as is that this sort of gatekeeper mindset can start to infect local leagues, tournaments- and even the shops. Get enough people convinced that Forge World is 'unfair' and that gets in someone's ear... suddenly you're being turned away at a tournament because your Chaos Bikers are Horus Heresy Alpha Legion guys on Outrider bikes. Suddenly shop owners are telling people to take models off the table and driving away customers that otherwise buy everything else at the shop. Suddenly you have a meta that's telling new players (as I was told years ago) that Forge World is 'not official' or 'not tournament legal' and it harms the greater community as a whole.
IMHO, when you go out 'in the wild' to lay PUGs- you are going with the full expectation that you will be playing the full, complete version of the game. Someone can ask that you play their own variation of the game and exclude certain things- but then again, this should all be within reason. Again, at a certain point it seems far less like a reasonable request to balance the game and more like someone trying to force people to play the way their opponents want them to play.
It's just a hell of a lot easier for me to say, "Sorry, I want to enjoy some of these models I spent my money on, painted, and put together. I'll find someone else to play with. Good luck".
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2018/05/08 17:03:09
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Asmodios wrote: Your example about the online shooter is actually really bad. Most if not all modern games have an extensive in-game lobby if not private servers so you can play the exact way you want. Want to play only certain map packs?... that's fine just select those. Want to play without rocket launchers?.... that's fine select a server that does not include those. Even at the highest levels of MLG most games have a "banning" portion of the map where you ban certain maps/heroes.
What many people are arguing for in this thread is meeting a guy who plays a game online and only plays certain game mode such as (team deathmatch, no perks, no killstreaks). You ask him for a game and he says he plays the above rules and if you'd like to play with him that the only type of lobby he will join. What the argument of this thread seems to be is that the above player shouldn't be allowed to play on such a server and instead should be forced to play in a game mode with everything in the game unlocked. using your own stipulations the LVO shouldnt be allowed for having non GW official terrain rules.... You should go force them to play the correct way just like you would to the guy that doesnt want to play against FW.
You shot yourself in the foot with that analogy.
If the person wants to play no rockets, they join a private server (i.e. play with friends).
If the person Quick-Plays a game (i.e. sets up a random PUG), then he shouldn't be surprised when the quickplay game doesn't have rocket launchers banned.
Not really
Person 1: Wanna play a game
Person 2: Sure I only play game type x if you wanna play with me
Person 1: Yeah Sure/ No Thanks
What you are advocating for in this thread
Person 1: Wanna play a game
Person 2: Sure i only play game type x if you wanna play with me
Person 1: WTF you cant play game type x and you have to play me in game mode y........ YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME REEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
No, actually. What I am advocating for is for people not to do this:
"Wanna play a game?"
"Sure, 2k points?"
"Sure."
~~Drives to store~~
"Ok here's my list."
"Oh, that's Forge World. We're not playing."
That's not fine. If the person mentions ahead of time no Forge World, then it will have saved me the trouble of driving to the store to play them. And I will still judge them for being silly, because while they can say know, I can also judge them for their opinions.
Read my first post again. I said it should have all been clarified before ever setting up a game. Still, doesn't change the fact that the guy has every right to refuse a game at any point and for any reason.
2018/05/08 17:03:32
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Asmodios wrote: yeah there have been tons of people in here saying he has to play against FW. How you play this game is your choice. Do i play against FW? Yes. Do i expect everyone else to play against FW? No. Yeah i think its great seeing awesome FW models on the table across from me... but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Ill admit that he should have clarified how he played before the game but the funniest thing is it seems like it worked out just fine knocking down the points and playing a FW free game.
Who has said "you must play against X"?
No, what has been said is "Forge World is part of the game. It is perfectly legal, but if you don't want to play it, whatever".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: Read my first post again. I said it should have all been clarified before ever setting up a game. Still, doesn't change the fact that the guy has every right to refuse a game at any point and for any reason.
Show me at what point anyone argued against this right.
Hell, I turned down a game against a guy because I hated his obnoxious color scheme.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/08 17:07:30
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2018/05/08 17:16:20
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Asmodios wrote: yeah there have been tons of people in here saying he has to play against FW. How you play this game is your choice. Do i play against FW? Yes. Do i expect everyone else to play against FW? No. Yeah i think its great seeing awesome FW models on the table across from me... but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Ill admit that he should have clarified how he played before the game but the funniest thing is it seems like it worked out just fine knocking down the points and playing a FW free game.
Who has said "you must play against X"?
No, what has been said is "Forge World is part of the game. It is perfectly legal, but if you don't want to play it, whatever".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: Read my first post again. I said it should have all been clarified before ever setting up a game. Still, doesn't change the fact that the guy has every right to refuse a game at any point and for any reason.
Show me at what point anyone argued against this right.
Hell, I turned down a game against a guy because I hated his obnoxious color scheme.
Im not going to reread through 7 pages but every post I've replied to has gone something like
Me: the guy shouldn't have to play against anything he doesn't want
Poster: FW is fine hes a baby he should play
Me: The guy shouldnt have to play against anything he doesn't want
If you agree that he should be able to turn down the game because nobody should be forced to play they don't want to then I'm confused why you even began to argue my posts. If the basic premise of my post is (the person can choose to turn down any game he likes) and you make a post arguing against mine, I'm under the assumption you have an issue with my post and thus the original premise.
2018/05/08 17:19:14
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
If you agree that he should be able to turn down the game because nobody should be forced to play they don't want to then I'm confused why you even began to argue my posts. If the basic premise of my post is (the person can choose to turn down any game he likes) and you make a post arguing against mine, I'm under the assumption you have an issue with my post and thus the original premise.
I don't have an issue with this part:
"No one should have to play anyone for any reason if they don't want to". Yes, this is correct.
I'm questioning who and where you have seen anyone saying, "You should have to". I'm calling this incorrect, or at the very least you misunderstanding the point.
Questioning someone's reasoning, even ridiculing it, does not equate 'demanding they play'.
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2018/05/08 17:29:21
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Asmodios wrote: yeah there have been tons of people in here saying he has to play against FW. How you play this game is your choice. Do i play against FW? Yes. Do i expect everyone else to play against FW? No. Yeah i think its great seeing awesome FW models on the table across from me... but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Ill admit that he should have clarified how he played before the game but the funniest thing is it seems like it worked out just fine knocking down the points and playing a FW free game.
Who has said "you must play against X"?
No, what has been said is "Forge World is part of the game. It is perfectly legal, but if you don't want to play it, whatever".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: Read my first post again. I said it should have all been clarified before ever setting up a game. Still, doesn't change the fact that the guy has every right to refuse a game at any point and for any reason.
Show me at what point anyone argued against this right.
Hell, I turned down a game against a guy because I hated his obnoxious color scheme.
Im not going to reread through 7 pages but every post I've replied to has gone something like
Me: the guy shouldn't have to play against anything he doesn't want
Poster: FW is fine hes a baby he should play
Me: The guy shouldnt have to play against anything he doesn't want
If you agree that he should be able to turn down the game because nobody should be forced to play they don't want to then I'm confused why you even began to argue my posts. If the basic premise of my post is (the person can choose to turn down any game he likes) and you make a post arguing against mine, I'm under the assumption you have an issue with my post and thus the original premise.
Well, I did go through every post (because I enjoy wasting my own time, apparently), and these are the posts that came closest to approximating what you're claiming:
But while opinions differ, the rules don't. FW world models are part of 40K. No opinion should supersede the base rules of the game. At least not outside of a private environment you control - do what you like there.
The FW rules are no more optional than say a Codex, over an Index. That is to say, they aren't optional at all. They are a significant part of the game like it or not.
Factually, FW units are legal and if you're playing by the rules of 40K, they are part of those rules. We don't have to like it, we do have to accept it. Where we refuse to, we also have to accept we are no longer playing 40K, but instead our own homebrew version of that game. … Now, if you can have a polite conversation and agree to play by x, y or z, that's fine! But you certainly shouldn't expect your opponent to automatically agree and childishly refuse to play when they don't.
In agreeing to a mutual rule set, Forge World and regular Games Workshop models are treated on an equal footing as "legal".
Yeah, sorry kids. Forge World is legal. You don't have to play someone using FW models if you don't want.
People who refuse to play against FW are babies.
Yeah, but if you don't play Forge World that's not the default, you're obligated to say that up front.
No one is "demanding" anything. I don't have a 'right' to a game. I do, however, have an expectation like any other sane, rational, mature adult playing warhammer 40k ( all 10 of us) and that expectation is that if the rules allow it and you can't justify me excluding it (like, "I have no anti-air capability with me today")- then I would prefer the person be an adult about it and roll with the game.
Well, dude- at the end of the day a 'Forge World' model is as much a part of 40k as a Rhino, Land Raider, or Leman Russ. So the big thing is, one person is coming with the intent of playing the full actual game. The other is expecting an edited, house-ruled version of the game.
IMHO, when you go out 'in the wild' to lay PUGs- you are going with the full expectation that you will be playing the full, complete version of the game.
And the one response that one could perhaps fairly say really is insisting on it:
It simply isn't fair to expect anyone to play anything but by the rules of 40K in a public setting. Now, if you want to change up the rules in a private setting - have at it. Otherwise you simply don't get to fundamentally alter the game either by addition or omission because you don't like something and expect to be seen as behaving reasonably.
This is seeming more and more like nothing other than a case of people wanting to stack the game in their favour by clutching at a tired excuse they think will allow them to dictate what their opponent can field.
If you really have an issue with certain FW units, the correct place to try and change them is via GW or FW. Until that happens, play privately with others of a like mind, or accept things as they are in public and play.
The rules are the rules. There is no debate to be had.
So it seems more like you're responding to a position that close to no one is actually taking.
2018/05/08 17:34:59
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
And the one response that one could perhaps fairly say really is insisting on it:
It simply isn't fair to expect anyone to play anything but by the rules of 40K in a public setting. Now, if you want to change up the rules in a private setting - have at it. Otherwise you simply don't get to fundamentally alter the game either by addition or omission because you don't like something and expect to be seen as behaving reasonably.
This is seeming more and more like nothing other than a case of people wanting to stack the game in their favour by clutching at a tired excuse they think will allow them to dictate what their opponent can field. If you really have an issue with certain FW units, the correct place to try and change them is via GW or FW. Until that happens, play privately with others of a like mind, or accept things as they are in public and play.
The rules are the rules. There is no debate to be had.
So it seems more like you're responding to a position that close to no one is actually taking.
For clarity, that was my comment, and I certainly wasn't stating that someone cannot refuse to play someone. Of course they can.
Note this line: "Otherwise you simply don't get to fundamentally alter the game either by addition or omission because you don't like something and expect to be seen as behaving reasonably."
I.e. you have the right to do it, but I'm going to think less of you if you choose to do so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 17:36:16
2018/05/08 17:48:58
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Can anyone show me any real reason why Forge World models shouldn't be allowed?
And when you show me this specific reason, I'd like to see that Games Workshop's standard line of models and rules doesn't do exactly the same damned thing.
Also, "The store can't sell it so..." doesn't count, because the store can't sell a good chunk of the conversion bits or even the older and perfectly legal models myself and many others use.
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2018/05/08 17:55:12
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
It is an issue of power level - not forgeworld. I'm not going to play any unbalanced matchup that I can avoid. Unless I just crushed someone and I want to give them a punching bag list - there is just no way I am playing codex dread against forge world dreads...EVER. The game would be a forgone conclusion.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/08 18:16:33
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
If you agree that he should be able to turn down the game because nobody should be forced to play they don't want to then I'm confused why you even began to argue my posts. If the basic premise of my post is (the person can choose to turn down any game he likes) and you make a post arguing against mine, I'm under the assumption you have an issue with my post and thus the original premise.
I don't have an issue with this part:
"No one should have to play anyone for any reason if they don't want to". Yes, this is correct.
I'm questioning who and where you have seen anyone saying, "You should have to". I'm calling this incorrect, or at the very least you misunderstanding the point.
Questioning someone's reasoning, even ridiculing it, does not equate 'demanding they play'.
"Yeah, it's not fine. Not really.
It simply isn't fair to expect anyone to play anything but by the rules of 40K in a public setting. Now, if you want to change up the rules in a private setting - have at it. Otherwise you simply don't get to fundamentally alter the game either by addition or omission because you don't like something and expect to be seen as behaving reasonably."
Here I went and looked one up. It was post like this saying that it's "Not Fine" to turn down games.
2018/05/08 18:18:00
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Asmodios wrote: yeah there have been tons of people in here saying he has to play against FW. How you play this game is your choice. Do i play against FW? Yes. Do i expect everyone else to play against FW? No. Yeah i think its great seeing awesome FW models on the table across from me... but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. Ill admit that he should have clarified how he played before the game but the funniest thing is it seems like it worked out just fine knocking down the points and playing a FW free game.
Who has said "you must play against X"?
No, what has been said is "Forge World is part of the game. It is perfectly legal, but if you don't want to play it, whatever".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: Read my first post again. I said it should have all been clarified before ever setting up a game. Still, doesn't change the fact that the guy has every right to refuse a game at any point and for any reason.
Show me at what point anyone argued against this right.
Hell, I turned down a game against a guy because I hated his obnoxious color scheme.
Im not going to reread through 7 pages but every post I've replied to has gone something like
Me: the guy shouldn't have to play against anything he doesn't want
Poster: FW is fine hes a baby he should play
Me: The guy shouldnt have to play against anything he doesn't want
If you agree that he should be able to turn down the game because nobody should be forced to play they don't want to then I'm confused why you even began to argue my posts. If the basic premise of my post is (the person can choose to turn down any game he likes) and you make a post arguing against mine, I'm under the assumption you have an issue with my post and thus the original premise.
Well, I did go through every post (because I enjoy wasting my own time, apparently), and these are the posts that came closest to approximating what you're claiming:
But while opinions differ, the rules don't. FW world models are part of 40K. No opinion should supersede the base rules of the game. At least not outside of a private environment you control - do what you like there.
The FW rules are no more optional than say a Codex, over an Index. That is to say, they aren't optional at all. They are a significant part of the game like it or not.
Factually, FW units are legal and if you're playing by the rules of 40K, they are part of those rules. We don't have to like it, we do have to accept it. Where we refuse to, we also have to accept we are no longer playing 40K, but instead our own homebrew version of that game. … Now, if you can have a polite conversation and agree to play by x, y or z, that's fine! But you certainly shouldn't expect your opponent to automatically agree and childishly refuse to play when they don't.
In agreeing to a mutual rule set, Forge World and regular Games Workshop models are treated on an equal footing as "legal".
Yeah, sorry kids. Forge World is legal. You don't have to play someone using FW models if you don't want.
People who refuse to play against FW are babies.
Yeah, but if you don't play Forge World that's not the default, you're obligated to say that up front.
No one is "demanding" anything. I don't have a 'right' to a game. I do, however, have an expectation like any other sane, rational, mature adult playing warhammer 40k ( all 10 of us) and that expectation is that if the rules allow it and you can't justify me excluding it (like, "I have no anti-air capability with me today")- then I would prefer the person be an adult about it and roll with the game.
Well, dude- at the end of the day a 'Forge World' model is as much a part of 40k as a Rhino, Land Raider, or Leman Russ. So the big thing is, one person is coming with the intent of playing the full actual game. The other is expecting an edited, house-ruled version of the game.
IMHO, when you go out 'in the wild' to lay PUGs- you are going with the full expectation that you will be playing the full, complete version of the game.
And the one response that one could perhaps fairly say really is insisting on it:
It simply isn't fair to expect anyone to play anything but by the rules of 40K in a public setting. Now, if you want to change up the rules in a private setting - have at it. Otherwise you simply don't get to fundamentally alter the game either by addition or omission because you don't like something and expect to be seen as behaving reasonably.
This is seeming more and more like nothing other than a case of people wanting to stack the game in their favour by clutching at a tired excuse they think will allow them to dictate what their opponent can field.
If you really have an issue with certain FW units, the correct place to try and change them is via GW or FW. Until that happens, play privately with others of a like mind, or accept things as they are in public and play.
The rules are the rules. There is no debate to be had.
So it seems more like you're responding to a position that close to no one is actually taking.
See post above
There you go looked up one of the replys from earlier in this thread where people were saying it was "not fine" to turn down games you didnt want to play
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/08 18:20:46
2018/05/08 18:18:41
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
I don’t know anything about the leviathan, but I do turn down the occasional game based on models. It’s nothing personal, but I just don’t have much fun when fighting an army made entirely of imperial knights, super heavy tanks, or some spammy turn 1 ur dead kind of lists. Win or,lose it’s just not very fun or interesting. Doesn’t look like you OP had that kind of one dimensional list, but I don’t think a player turning down a game is that big of a deal and doesn’t have to feel like a personal attack on yourself.
2018/05/08 18:19:08
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
Can anyone show me any real reason why Forge World models shouldn't be allowed?
And when you show me this specific reason, I'd like to see that Games Workshop's standard line of models and rules doesn't do exactly the same damned thing.
Also, "The store can't sell it so..." doesn't count, because the store can't sell a good chunk of the conversion bits or even the older and perfectly legal models myself and many others use.
Well, it's funny you mention that. I was thinking about what FW models I own that could trigger someone to not want to play.
For 40 points more than a well-equipped Helbrute, I can get a Decimator with Dual Soulburner Petards that cause mortal wounds on each hit (i.e. no wound rolls, no saves.) My Helbrute loadout is usually a Scourge and Twin lascannons, for comparison.
I use 2 of these fellows when I want to clear those weak Custodes lists off the board. They do up to 2D6 damage each and probably average 7 MW per turn. I'm often charging them up behind a Cultist screen, which just falls back when it's time to wreck face. So even if the Decimator doesn't kill what it hit, it's not going to be charged.
My Hellforged Scorpius' are similar, I park 3 of them in a corner next to Abaddon for 6D3 S6 -2 D2 shots each, rerolling to hit. Since they are capable of indirect fire, I'm often in a position where opponents can't shoot back at them.
There is no Codex equivalent for the Scorpius. They are only slightly more expensive than my laspreds for roughly 3 times the amount of damage per turn. When I play the Scorpius' and the Decimators together, I go into each game with the feeling I have a good chance to table an opponent. They are just that good.
There are other good units like this in the FW line, at least for Chaos. Any definition I've ever been given of 'OP' left me disappointed, I think it really just means more people complain about a certain unit on average than others. I don't see characterizations like this as a justification for banning a unit from the game.
But when opponents have asked me to tone down my lists, they are usually talking about these units. I recognize everyone needs to enjoy the game they play, and have no problem with tailoring my list to a level everyone is comfortable with.
