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There are lots of reason why Fantasy failed. Mainly first off was Kirby and company had their head so far up their arse they thought they could do what ever they wanted and we would clamber to it.

After all Kirby said (or was it someone else?) the GW hobby was not collecting and modelling and playing, but buying GW product. They took their fan base for granted. That was for every game system they did just not Fantasy.

I was about to try and get into Fantasy, but the cost to get into and play with "regular" people ment you needed lots of points and play almost like Warmahordes 2.0. Meaning balls to the wall.

Not saying this is true, but that is how it seemed liked. People didn't play for fun but to win.

So high start cost and me seeing how GW doesn't support their product at the time, 40K garbage rules GW shot themselves in the head, not just the foot.

So instead of having Age of Sigmar as their introductory level and still keep Fantasy for advanced level or apocalypse level, they threw out the baby with the bath water.

Kirby still being in charge of the release of AoS, it just felt like they were throwing Space Marines into Fantasy and we would love it. We have finally rebelled.

Act of god or what ever, Kirby finally let his position go. Mr Roundtree then finally set the ship straight and we have what we do now because of Mr Roundtree actually being a logical person and knows what is best for business instead of his own personal bank account.

Here's what my viewpoint was as someone starting Fantasy.

The issue with Fantasy was that games took a lot of models and that made it difficult to get into it and even learning games needed a sizeable army so cost was a huge issue.
Even bigger was GW's intense neglect. I tried helping someone get into Skaven once. The book was a mess and GW never deigned to sort it out and that behaviour didn't go until Kirby got taken out.
Finally the issue for some people was that Fantasy was complicated so learning took some time.

But then End Times and AoS came. Which honestly was worse for a long time. End Times was a disgusting cash grab that didn't hide the fact GW was giving you the finger. The rules were unbalanced, the lore was terrible (my whole faction was just eliminated off screen by plot device Skaven) and it was just a mess in general. Then the world ended which was very strange then just bad.

The ranked unit game got replaced with AoS which was just given 5 minutes of an interns day for rule writing, armies just got removed for no reason save copyrighting and then they built AoS on the bones of a good game.

Now there are two reasons to play AoS for people like me. First it's VERY simple so it's a good casual game and second I can get almost all the rules for free. It's fun but I remain confused about why Fantasy wasn't kept with a 9th edition. AOS solved all its problems and keeping it would have avoided so much bad will from the fanbase.

 kodos wrote:
AoS also did not sell without start collecting boxes and General Handbook

"AoS" sold fine when we're talking about the starter set. The game itself had to face an uphill battle from neckbeards who demanded crap like the General's Handbook.

If there would have been Army Boxes with a legal playable army, point and rules adjustments instead of "we don't make mistakes" and a more reasonable size or army price Warhammer Fantasy would have been as healthy as AoS is now

Battalions were still on sale at that point, just so you can know how ridiculous you are. It wasn't until Start Collectings started happening that the Battalions finally got ran down.

Anyways, Fantasy died because neckbeards didn't buy models and were actively toxic communities in many cases.

You make it sound so selfish. Demanding GW put effort into their products. How cruel people are. Next we'll want to be able to enter their stores without paying entry fees!

People not buying models is a symptom of the problem not the cause.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Battalions were still on sale at that point, just so you can know how ridiculous you are.

with the difference that they were legal playable
the same with 40k, and aslos there GW changed the rules to allow to play the content out of the box without needing to buy something else


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Anyways, Fantasy died because neckbeards didn't buy models and were actively toxic communities in many cases.

I guess the same neckbeards killed Nokia because they stopped buying their mobiles


Yeah if something is killed because people just stop buying something that is not working is never the fault of the company

 kodos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Battalions were still on sale at that point, just so you can know how ridiculous you are.

with the difference that they were legal playable
the same with 40k, and aslos there GW changed the rules to allow to play the content out of the box without needing to buy something else

What was stopping you from using a Battalion box? NOTHING. It was a collection of models. Points weren't a thing, there's no FOC, there was literally nothing stopping anyone from playing using the contents of Battalions from WHFB to AoS.

The only thing most of them were missing was a single Hero choice. Do you really think people weren't playing because they didn't get a single Hero choice?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Anyways, Fantasy died because neckbeards didn't buy models and were actively toxic communities in many cases.

I guess the same neckbeards killed Nokia because they stopped buying their mobiles


Yeah if something is killed because people just stop buying something that is not working is never the fault of the company

When the only time people in my local community bought stuff was because of nerfs, yeah--that isn't the fault of the company. People were buying whatever netlists they saw for tournaments. They were also very toxic in that those same individuals would play curbstomp lists against people who were looking to get into the game.

Do you know how you kill a game off? You kill off the influx of new players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
You make it sound so selfish. Demanding GW put effort into their products. How cruel people are. Next we'll want to be able to enter their stores without paying entry fees!

People not buying models is a symptom of the problem not the cause.

It was selfish. Do you know how many people at the launch of AoS whined about the fact that their armies couldn't just roll over people because they didn't get a Steadfast anymore? Because their Wizards couldn't hide in bunkers of meatshields? That the "silly" rules which were completely optional sometimes could give an advantage?

 Kanluwen wrote:

What was stopping you from using a Battalion box?

I disliked the rules from 8th edtion and that my existing armies were not playable any more
I bought the Warriors of Chaos Box and switched to Kings of War

And yes, it makes a difference if you get a Box: This is XY points, all Boxes are equal in points and ready to play VS This is a Box with the stuff we want you to buy, all Boxes are different in points and you still need something else to play the minimum points of the game

pm713 wrote: AOS solved all its problems and keeping it would have avoided so much bad will from the fanbase.

I am shocked as well. Thing is, as you said, Kirby was still in at the time. Now if Mr Roundtree took position at the end of Fantasy, who knows what could have happend. I am just shocked that Mr Roundtree was able to polish a turd. You have to give that man credit to do what he did. He did the impossible. I don't think any of us really believed GW would be like they are now.

pm713 wrote:Next we'll want to be able to enter their stores without paying entry fees!

I don't get this. Paying entry fees? Why would I pay an entry fee to buy something in a store? What am I missing here? You haven't said anything about a tournament, so I am puzzled what you are alluding too.

realistically game wise there is nothing in AoS that could not have been done for a 9th edition of WHFB rules wise. The real issue I think I am seeing is the setting. AoS has a unique enough setting, but its not popular yet the way the old world is. WHFB could have been easily saved by simply using the AoS rules in the old world. BUT I think that the feel of the 2 settings is different enough. GW wanted its cake and eat it too, they disregarded a lot of their fans to chase down new customers.

GW wanted its cake and eat it too, they disregarded a lot of their fans to chase down new customers.

This is a key statement. Additionally reading the tea leaves, they hired a few very young rules developers and it can be gleaned that they are pushing for a new gen of players at the expense of the older.

Some have bitter feelings toward the older generation. Not for entirely invalid reasons. But being in the older generation because of when I happened to be born, it is hard to cheerlead the game when everything that brought you into wargaming as a hobby in the first place was flushed down the toilet and replaced with a game that is heavily influenced by the current crop of board and CCG games that are popular but have nothing to do with why you are there in the first place.

My anchor is the $15,000 or so investment I made into warhammer that sits in my model room on industrial shelves in multiple cases over the past 20 years.

 auticus wrote:

GW wanted its cake and eat it too, they disregarded a lot of their fans to chase down new customers.

This is a key statement. Additionally reading the tea leaves, they hired a few very young rules developers and it can be gleaned that they are pushing for a new gen of players at the expense of the older.

Some have bitter feelings toward the older generation. Not for entirely invalid reasons. But being in the older generation because of when I happened to be born, it is hard to cheerlead the game when everything that brought you into wargaming as a hobby in the first place was flushed down the toilet and replaced with a game that is heavily influenced by the current crop of board and CCG games that are popular but have nothing to do with why you are there in the first place.

My anchor is the $15,000 or so investment I made into warhammer that sits in my model room on industrial shelves in multiple cases over the past 20 years.

with them being so different, a "supplemental" rulebook or specialist game designation could have kept both. AoS is fun, I enjoy it, but it stands no chance of being the #1 fantasy wargame. Too much competition with games that are (subjectively) better rules, models, terrain, etc.... In Europe it has no real competition, but in the US there are places where GW as a whole is widely disregarded. that being said, as long as it keeps making money it will do ok.

Yeah if they are serious about wanting it to be "THE" fantasy wargame, they need to look at the very large pool of people that won't touch AOS, and see why that is and correct that.

Warhammer Fantasy has essentially run its course.

Rank and flank may be fun, but it also means buying lots of models which don’t really do anything.

The cost of an army also varied wildly. Whilst Ogres and Chaos could be made into an army fairly cheaply, the same couldn’t be said of Undead and Gobbos.

The world itself was also inherently limited. In short, it was too well defined, and too stuck in Renaissance type technology and lower to really justify armies such as Ind and Cathay being introduced to the range. After all, how would they get to where the action is to justify battles? Dwarfs, Undead, Elves and Empire armies couldn’t really have much new added to them in any meaningful way.

AoS largely solved that. Realmgates allow for anyone to fight anywhere - personal distaste for that bit of background doesn’t change that one iota.

We’ve seen greater creativity from the studio as a result. Kharadron Overlords and Idoneth Deepkin promise to be merely the tip of the iceberg in that regard.

It’s also served to settle my one real bugbear about the Old World, which was ‘how come the good gods don’t do anything?’

It’s ok not to like any given aspect of it. I for one found Bretonnians spectacularly dull in the Old World (would still like to see them return. It was the execution, not the concept). And now we’ve got a brand new, ever developing background and narrative. Warhammer Fantasy again just didn’t have room for that. The clock was always One Minute To Midnight in that regard. Even the slightest shift in the balance of power would knacker things beyond recognition.

And it’s undeniable that the game is doing what Warhammer Fantasy wasn’t - selling. Sure, there’s the proverbial sad neckbeards utterly convinced it ‘T9A’ that’s driving it. Shame they’ve not got nowt but wishful thinking to support in that regard. Since AoS was released, their sales have increased, as has their bottom line. Whilst they don’t publish results on a per game system basis, the two can not be mere coincidence. Not that degree.

Mad Doc Grotsnik pretty much nailed it there.

This new setting allows for a lot more flexibility for designing new armies and (because of the realmgates), there's always a somewhat plausible explanation why factions end up fighting each other... The design studio can start exploring things like the air, the sea, the underworlds, etc... and they have with pretty cool results so far. This could have never happened in the old world. God-tier beings like Nagash, Morathi, Allarielle, Archaon,... actually feel slightly better in this setting as well. I'm actually REALLY looking forwards to reading the fluff in the big rule book that's coming out soon (something I can't say excited me too much for 40k, despite them progressing the story line, 95% of it remained the same).

AoS' main problem was the rocky start. And the thing about first impressions, is that you only get to make them once!

But so far, it seems that AoS has attracted newer players and maybe every now and then, an old veteran will stop their salt mining and find that this game can actually be an enjoyable way to kill an evening worth of time with your mates.

 Elmir wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik pretty much nailed it there.

This new setting allows for a lot more flexibility for designing new armies and (because of the realmgates), there's always a somewhat plausible explanation why factions end up fighting each other... The design studio can start exploring things like the air, the sea, the underworlds, etc... and they have with pretty cool results so far. This could have never happened in the old world. God-tier beings like Nagash, Morathi, Allarielle, Archaon,... actually feel slightly better in this setting as well. I'm actually REALLY looking forwards to reading the fluff in the big rule book that's coming out soon (something I can't say excited me too much for 40k, despite them progressing the story line, 95% of it remained the same).

AoS' main problem was the rocky start. And the thing about first impressions, is that you only get to make them once!

But so far, it seems that AoS has attracted newer players and maybe every now and then, an old veteran will stop their salt mining and find that this game can actually be an enjoyable way to kill an evening worth of time with your mates.

It drove away a lot more than it gained here, and I blame a lot of that on the roll out and initial confusion. We (and I am an old veteran btw) tried to really boost it with an event near the start and it was to be blunt a disaster. A lot of that was we just didnt know what we were doing. but with no way to even guess if any forces were remotely comparable the battles were all over the place, you could tell who was and was not having fun right away. Real storm. We tried again after GHB and while we had far fewer folks, we had a much better handle of things. The game can be fun, it really can. BUT you need to approach it as its own thing and not as the next step of warhammer. having the fluff all over the place helped the perception of it having either no fluff or it was . It needed to be consolidated, and now they are doing that it looks soo much better. I can see Hammerhal eventually being the new "Nuln" and while I dont personally like Shadespire, it can and I think will replace Mordheim in a lot of hearts and minds. AoS simply is not old enough yet to get the same following as a 30 year old setting. Give it time to grow into its own. I believe their was a degree of arrogance and condescension when AoS debuted that caused a lot of hate towards it and that in turn caused folks who would otherwise enjoy it to despise it. I have guy in my game group who was die hard AoS is pure unredeamable garbage who played it thinking it was a alternate set of warhammer skirmish rules and had a great time with it, and then went right back to bashing it when he found out it was actually AoS. First impressions can kill a game easy.

WHFB died because a long series of grotesque errors GW made while trying to fix the last error. Step up and the horde rule (brought in to make infantry blocks relevant again after 7e's wall-to-wall heavy knights) contrived to make morale and positioning nigh-irrelevant as well as shooting the model-count barrier to entry through the roof, pre-measuring (brought in to make the game generally more accessible) combined with cannons to make elite units and monsters nigh-unusable, fixed power dice and more random spells (brought in to fix the Wizards-in-Core Daemons lists that broke the 7e tournament scene) turned the Magic phase into a whole bunch of die rolling/addition during which most of the time nothing happened but occasionally someone's unit got casually removed. Then the End Times (brought in to revitalize a flagging game with shiny new giant models) came along to turn WHFB into a new-models-win 40k pastiche.

Among many things that GW didn't get (and still doesn't really get) is that there were people who liked WHFB because of things that distinguished it from 40k; it wasn't the game of giant models thumping into each other while the same four or five named characters trotted about blowing things up every game, it was the game where your line units got to be relevant and where you had to work at killing things instead of just throwing a bigger blast template at them and pulling them off the table.

I can't speak to the toxicity of anyone else's community, but to my mind the things that AoS-fans point to as reasons WHFB needed to die (overcomplicated rules, massive cost of units, poor balance, poor sales...) are GW's screwups during late 7e/8e/End Times rather than somehow inherent to the concept of a linear warfare game.

Locally the problem was that it was a game that had an exceptionally high entry cost(WHFB that is). It was really hard to get people into the game and telling them that they "just needed" 2000+ points of models. To top that off we had the veterans who only wanted to play high point games and had every single model in existence so they really didn't have a reason to buy more models except maybe 1-2 a year at best. I know my FLGS didn't really bother keeping WHFB stock at some point due to how little it sold.

A part of me wishes I could have experienced WHFB when it was at its best, but much like anyone else I just couldn't imagine throwing away so much money on a single army where I would have to paint what amounts to an Ork army, and then some.

Now, some people say that one could just play the Battalion straight out of the box or even play smaller games, but the problem is that then you need to find someone as dedicated as yourself to do the same as most of the veterans really didn't have that much interest in approaching the game like that. You want to play with the community at large and when the entry price is that high it becomes a real barrier for growth. For all its other problems, 40k did have a less stricter barrier of entry and allowed you to get going relatively quickly. Also felt like the 40k community was at least more open to playing lower point games than the WHFB crowd.

I do agree that it was weird that they completely killed off the line as I feel like there could have been some concessions made to keep both alive and well. In fact, when they ported the game to round bases for AoS I was kinda hoping they would just release movement trays so one could use the AoS models in WHFB, switching back and forth depending on one's needs. I personally hated the square bases, but love the idea of rank and file.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Locally the problem was that it was a game that had an exceptionally high entry cost(WHFB that is). It was really hard to get people into the game and telling them that they "just needed" 2000+ points of models. To top that off we had the veterans who only wanted to play high point games and had every single model in existence so they really didn't have a reason to buy more models except maybe 1-2 a year at best. I know my FLGS didn't really bother keeping WHFB stock at some point due to how little it sold.

A part of me wishes I could have experienced WHFB when it was at its best, but much like anyone else I just couldn't imagine throwing away so much money on a single army where I would have to paint what amounts to an Ork army, and then some.

Now, some people say that one could just play the Battalion straight out of the box or even play smaller games, but the problem is that then you need to find someone as dedicated as yourself to do the same as most of the veterans really didn't have that much interest in approaching the game like that. You want to play with the community at large and when the entry price is that high it becomes a real barrier for growth. For all its other problems, 40k did have a less stricter barrier of entry and allowed you to get going relatively quickly. Also felt like the 40k community was at least more open to playing lower point games than the WHFB crowd.

I do agree that it was weird that they completely killed off the line as I feel like there could have been some concessions made to keep both alive and well. In fact, when they ported the game to round bases for AoS I was kinda hoping they would just release movement trays so one could use the AoS models in WHFB, switching back and forth depending on one's needs. I personally hated the square bases, but love the idea of rank and file.

Despite this being a primarily wargame forum, I cannot stress enough that with the RPG coming out it would even be in GW's interest to keep those models available for that purpose. There is certainly a market for RPG minis and I would not be surprised that it rivals the market for tabletop (bones and deep cuts come to mind there) so even if they did not support the game, they could keep the models for the rpg and tabletop crowd, even if they went to round bases (hell maybe especially if they did).

 thekingofkings wrote:
...Despite this being a primarily wargame forum, I cannot stress enough that with the RPG coming out it would even be in GW's interest to keep those models available for that purpose. There is certainly a market for RPG minis and I would not be surprised that it rivals the market for tabletop (bones and deep cuts come to mind there) so even if they did not support the game, they could keep the models for the rpg and tabletop crowd, even if they went to round bases (hell maybe especially if they did).

The problem GW always has with this is that RPG games don't usually need 10+ of roughly the same model, so the older WHFB models end up being a tough sell to RPG players who don't want to spend $40-50 to get a unit they might want to use three or four models out of.

Now if they did Mordheim teams formatted like the new Necromunda gangs with weapon options...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
...Despite this being a primarily wargame forum, I cannot stress enough that with the RPG coming out it would even be in GW's interest to keep those models available for that purpose. There is certainly a market for RPG minis and I would not be surprised that it rivals the market for tabletop (bones and deep cuts come to mind there) so even if they did not support the game, they could keep the models for the rpg and tabletop crowd, even if they went to round bases (hell maybe especially if they did).

The problem GW always has with this is that RPG games don't usually need 10+ of roughly the same model, so the older WHFB models end up being a tough sell to RPG players who don't want to spend $40-50 to get a unit they might want to use three or four models out of.

Now if they did Mordheim teams formatted like the new Necromunda gangs with weapon options...

not of all, but depending on char experience and the opponent you need a good amount of the "baddies" the "militia" box was great for crafting players (except females, which really irritates the ladies in our group (both of em for WHFRPG) who have to find alternates )

Davor wrote:

pm713 wrote: AOS solved all its problems and keeping it would have avoided so much bad will from the fanbase.

I am shocked as well. Thing is, as you said, Kirby was still in at the time. Now if Mr Roundtree took position at the end of Fantasy, who knows what could have happend. I am just shocked that Mr Roundtree was able to polish a turd. You have to give that man credit to do what he did. He did the impossible. I don't think any of us really believed GW would be like they are now.

pm713 wrote:Next we'll want to be able to enter their stores without paying entry fees!

I don't get this. Paying entry fees? Why would I pay an entry fee to buy something in a store? What am I missing here? You haven't said anything about a tournament, so I am puzzled what you are alluding too.

I will agree to that.

I was making fun of Kanluwens complaint about people demanding the Generals Handbook. My point was that asking for GW to put effort into the game is a reasonable expectation as is entering the stores for free. I was being sarcastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As people are talking about how AoS is good at bringing in new people and has a much more creative world I want to ask something.
Why not have both AoS and Fantasy? There are people who prefer both the setting and gameplay of Fantasy and both games are very clearly tied together lorewise. You can easily keep Fantasy and AoS around together in a similar to 30 and 40k.

Fun fact for the thread - in 1996 the GW catalogue has Warhammer 40K, Necromunda and Epic then the other HALF of the book is Warhammer Fantasy.

The other interesting thing is how big a difference there is in design style between Sigmar of today and Warhammer of yesteryear. Not just in how models are a lot bigger today than they were back then (esp the war-engines and beasties) but also in the whole visual style and approach.

Commodus Leitdorf wrote:WHFB wasn't selling and IP protection, it really isn't anymore complicated then that.

AoS solved all the problems they were having with WHFB while, at the same time, promoted sales of their minis. Say what you will of AoS but impulse buying is a thing you can do with the game. I can walk into my local game store, buy a box of anything and BOOM! Completely usable unit for AoS. While with WHFB I'd have to plan ahead and figure out how many of X I would need for a usable unit.

Added to that I would probably not buy new as Ebay has been my go to for minis since I started playing back in 2003. I built my whole Empire army off 6th edition starter sets I got cheap online.

kodos wrote:AoS also did not sell without start collecting boxes and General Handbook

If there would have been Army Boxes with a legal playable army, point and rules adjustments instead of "we don't make mistakes" and a more reasonable size or army price Warhammer Fantasy would have been as healthy as AoS is now

This was one of the boons of 6th Edition, your regiment boxed sets (plastic, at any rate) were valid units and completely usable in the meta at the time. Battalions at the time were equally good about being pretty much a starter force from the get go. Our club in Ft. Wayne had a dedicated newbie table where we played 1,000 pt. games with the kids who were just starting out. There were models to borrow in the store if you weren't up to 1,000 yet, and always a few vets to answer questions. I'd really like to think our club was NOT the only one like that.

7th, however, introduced 10 man infantry regiments for almost the same price as the 16-20 man regiments that they replaced. This hit about the same time as the Army Special Rules war, which is about the time that I started to realize WFB was going a direction that I REALLY didn't like. Doubling cost of entry certainly didn't help, nor did swinging the meta towards whatever type of unit was NOT selling as well.

Kanluwen wrote:

 kodos wrote:
AoS also did not sell without start collecting boxes and General Handbook

"AoS" sold fine when we're talking about the starter set. The game itself had to face an uphill battle from neckbeards who demanded crap like the General's Handbook.

If there would have been Army Boxes with a legal playable army, point and rules adjustments instead of "we don't make mistakes" and a more reasonable size or army price Warhammer Fantasy would have been as healthy as AoS is now

Battalions were still on sale at that point, just so you can know how ridiculous you are. It wasn't until Start Collectings started happening that the Battalions finally got ran down.

Anyways, Fantasy died because neckbeards didn't buy models and were actively toxic communities in many cases.

Is this post supposed to be ironic? If so, it fell flat to be honest. If it was meant to be serious, then you should be made aware of the irony of a vitriol laden toxic post trash talking people who didn't dive straight into AOS like you. This CAAC vs. WAAC war is not only dumb, but it's catching all the midline players in its crosshairs.

The sets were NOT selling fine, this is the reason they did the GH in the first place. And as far as Battalions being available at the same time? Those functioned fine as AOS forces, but they weren't effective in the 8th meta, which is why kudos mentions them. Had GW not aimed its sights on the $100 regiment, things would have most assuredly ran different. 7th Ed. introduced rules bloat and price gouging, 8th chose to "fix" those things by doubling down on both. Rather than removing the special rules that were destroying the efficiency of the game, and rather than make sets viable straight out the box, they introduced rules to counter the rules that were set to counter the problem special rules, which then forced people to buy more of the expensive small boxed sets to be competitive. THAT was the failing with 7th and 8th. AOS wasn't a fix for that. AOS was an attempt to "unify" the products of both games to both cater to what was already working (40K), test how far they could oversimplify their FLAGSHIP title without losing customers (40K), and create a safety net to roll the newer AOS stuff into 40K if the game system itself was failing but they wanted a ROI on their molding and design work (Think along the lines of WarmaHordes).

AOS is doing well because GW is reintroducing structure, composition, and customer opinion/feedback. Not because it was perfect out the box

 Just Tony wrote:

Is this post supposed to be ironic? If so, it fell flat to be honest. If it was meant to be serious, then you should be made aware of the irony of a vitriol laden toxic post trash talking people who didn't dive straight into AOS like you. This CAAC vs. WAAC war is not only dumb, but it's catching all the midline players in its crosshairs.

It's not CAAC vs WAAC, it's neckbeards versus anyone who actually was open to trying anything new. There were (and still are) very vocal people who refused to do anything with AoS because "IT ISN'T MY GAME!".

The sets were NOT selling fine, this is the reason they did the GH in the first place.

Prove it. The AoS main starter set actually went out of stock a few times before the GHB came out.

And as far as Battalions being available at the same time? Those functioned fine as AOS forces, but they weren't effective in the 8th meta, which is why kudos mentions them. Had GW not aimed its sights on the $100 regiment, things would have most assuredly ran different. 7th Ed. introduced rules bloat and price gouging, 8th chose to "fix" those things by doubling down on both. Rather than removing the special rules that were destroying the efficiency of the game, and rather than make sets viable straight out the box, they introduced rules to counter the rules that were set to counter the problem special rules, which then forced people to buy more of the expensive small boxed sets to be competitive. THAT was the failing with 7th and 8th. AOS wasn't a fix for that. AOS was an attempt to "unify" the products of both games to both cater to what was already working (40K), test how far they could oversimplify their FLAGSHIP title without losing customers (40K), and create a safety net to roll the newer AOS stuff into 40K if the game system itself was failing but they wanted a ROI on their molding and design work (Think along the lines of WarmaHordes).

And this is just gobbledygook.

AOS is doing well because GW is reintroducing structure, composition, and customer opinion/feedback. Not because it was perfect out the box

AoS is doing well now because the neckbeards who were so vitriolically opposed to things have moved on or shut up for the most part. It really wasn't that hard to have "structure" or "composition" before the GHB. It's just those people who wanted to whine latched onto that as a reason to badmouth every little thing. You had people constantly talking about crap like having "an army of Nagashes" or multiple Archaons and other garbage.

So getting back to the OP

I think Warhammer died because of the following:-

(A) It was too expensive for new people. To get a decent army meant spending way too much even for a basic army and when you were having to spend almost £100 for one unit it was getting silly. As such only older players continued playing it and inevitably that means a slow decline over time.

(B) Compounded by (A) this allowed other companies to start creating copies of the generic types of units. As such GW wanting to keep their price margin rather than be competitive was to try and remove those themes that were too easy to copy. It's less easy to copy shark and turtle surfers for example

(C) GW changed its target audience to churn and burn gamers mostly teenagers and young adults. Older gamers were less prioritised. This group had been more accustomed to the WoW grandeur which didn't really sit well in the grittier dingiest setting that Warhammer came from

(D). Associated with (C) there are now vast numbers of ideas, themes, sport that any of us can easily do. This is espcially prevalent with the rise of consoles. It is easy to get a quick fix for anything these days. Hence learning vast amount of rules and learning their tactical nuances is less favoured by the target audience. When Warhammer originated such distractions did not exist. Hence very streamlined rules that can quickly be played fills the principle of a quick fix in today's market.

Don't forget that the community's biblical stubborness when it came to playing ANYTHING other than tournament standard 2500p made the barrier of entry even that much more expensive, because everyone felt that they had to have a full tournament army to play.

 Earth127 wrote:
As a person who got into fantasy at the end of 8th. It wasn't a very fun game to start in.

Practically no matter what new unit you bought or built, there was nothing that could match the blob of basic infantry in the centre with a big wizard overcasting. For a vetrean that already had these blacks of infantry fine but boy was that frustrating.

It might well be your local meta, but the tail end of 8th there was a massive swing towards MSU and avoidance-style lists. The mandatory lv4 wizard stayed, though, but you hardly saw big units anymore other than as a big magnet for super-6th spells. Unless you were talking about the Alarielle white lion death star, of course.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Locally the problem was that it was a game that had an exceptionally high entry cost(WHFB that is). It was really hard to get people into the game and telling them that they "just needed" 2000+ points of models. To top that off we had the veterans who only wanted to play high point games and had every single model in existence so they really didn't have a reason to buy more models except maybe 1-2 a year at best. I know my FLGS didn't really bother keeping WHFB stock at some point due to how little it sold.

And that's happening again post-GHB

Narrative-casual has all but disappeared and a disproportionate amount of visible games are played at the "official" 2K points level. Which fits in with a lot of the AoS community coming over from 40K (who had bits and bobs of fantasy armies) rather than being older fantasy players.

The End times was massively successful, books and minis sold out at just about every release. This means the market for rank-and-flank fantasy was there, just not the way they were doing it.

Depended on where you were.

We didn't have any MSU here, and our locals favored the massive blobs as well with the mandatory level 4, where both sides entire tactical game was "gotta six dice Irresistable Force the death spell first so I can win"

the High elf mat ward banner giving the 2+ ward save against demons and magic and then the high elf players making the massive white lion death star was icing on the cake.

 auticus wrote:
Depended on where you were.

We didn't have any MSU here, and our locals favored the massive blobs as well with the mandatory level 4, where both sides entire tactical game was "gotta six dice Irresistable Force the death spell first so I can win"

the High elf mat ward banner giving the 2+ ward save against demons and magic and then the high elf players making the massive white lion death star was icing on the cake.

Yeah, that was my area as well. It wasn't great. I preferred 7th.

7th edition in my area and the tournament scene was all checkerboarded msu cavalry units. I hated that too. I miss 6th edition. 6th edition was probably the best edition of whfb in my opinion. Armies felt like armies and not checkerboard cav armies or giant fat blobs abusing steadfast.