New AOS Edition comes out in June

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**EnTyme**

Assuming the Flaming Skull is on a 32mm base, we can get a pretty good idea how big these spells are actually going to be. Those are some decent-sized models. If the rumored $40 price point is correct (I'm skeptical. I would assume closer to $75 at least), that box is going to be one hell of a deal!

**RexHavoc**

Skimask Mohawk wrote:
What I meant was if endless spells were a core part of the rules, or an optional expansion

The magic box comes with the spells and its own rulebook, so I'd say it is an expansion.

That being said, in the latest stormcast podcast they mention the endless spells in the new core book- but did not mention if that meant rules or just the fluff behind them.

**Ghaz**

Faction Focus: Nighthaunt, part 2 from Warhammer Community:

**Captain Joystick**

RexHavoc wrote:
Skimask Mohawk wrote:
What I meant was if endless spells were a core part of the rules, or an optional expansion

The magic box comes with the spells and its own rulebook, so I'd say it is an expansion.

They're spells, and part of the main game. In much the same way the bale wind vortex is a part of the main game now, even though its rules come packaged with it.

Calling it an 'expansion' makes it sound like an optional add-on or alternative to the core game that both players agree to play as an alternative to 'baseline' AoS, like Apocalypse.

**auticus**

I think they are an optional add-on or alternative to the core game. Certainly I'm seeing a lot of people posting on forums or tweets or whatever that they don't plan on using anything beyond the four pages (or whatever) core rules and don't plan on integrating any of the living spells etc.

**RexHavoc**

Captain Joystick wrote:
RexHavoc wrote:
Skimask Mohawk wrote:
What I meant was if endless spells were a core part of the rules, or an optional expansion

The magic box comes with the spells and its own rulebook, so I'd say it is an expansion.

They're spells, and part of the main game. In much the same way the bale wind vortex is a part of the main game now, even though its rules come packaged with it.

Calling it an 'expansion' makes it sound like an optional add-on or alternative to the core game that both players agree to play as an alternative to 'baseline' AoS, like Apocalypse.

It looks very much like an optional add-on, being that it boxed separately. If it was part of the core game then the rules would be in the core book, not as a separate book.

If the rules for them are in the core rules/starter set and the magic box is just optional models to represent them, then I'd agree it's not an expansion. But if so then I don't understand why there is such a large looking rulebook included in the magic set.

**Ghaz**

From the Warhammer Community article (emphasis added)

Got a wizard in your army? Get this expansion, and they’ll have 13 new endless spells to play with, summoned sorceries with massive in-game effects...

Inside the Malign Sorcery box, you’ll find the full Malign Sorcery supplement – your guide to magic in the Mortal Realms. This book takes a closer look at magical lore in the Age of Sigmar, and the arcane materials that accumulate in each realm, such as Aetherquartz and Cyclestone. There are pages of spectacular new art and background depicting the unbound living magic rampant across each of the realms. You’ll even find painting guides for many of the endless spells, to help you get them ready for your own games.

There’s MORE. Seriously, even without the endless spells this would be a pretty hefty supplement. Skirmish on the Realm’s Edge lets you fight battles with a handful of models in some of the Mortal Realms’ most unstable landscapes as they hunt and bind wild spells for coin and renown. You can even expand your games to Path to Glory, as your warband grows into a fully fledged army gathering new spells to its cause.

For larger games, meanwhile, this book contains no fewer than 84(!) magical items that you’ll be able to use in any game, allowing you to customise your Heroes more than ever before, while the Spells of the Realms add a whole lore’s worth of magic to each of the Mortal Realms, building on the rules already found in the Core Book.

There’s even a set of Pitched Battle profiles, giving you the points you need to use your endless spells in matched play, while two Malign Sorcery battleplans aimed at matched play have a chance of showing up in any of your games where both players bring endless spells.

They say it's an expansion, plus there's more in the book than just the rules for the endless spells.

**Captain Joystick**

auticus wrote:I think they are an optional add-on or alternative to the core game. Certainly I'm seeing a lot of people posting on forums or tweets or whatever that they don't plan on using anything beyond the four pages (or whatever) core rules and don't plan on integrating any of the living spells etc.

RexHavoc wrote:It looks very much like an optional add-on, being that it boxed separately. If it was part of the core game then the rules would be in the core book, not as a separate book.

Literally every unit in the game is boxed separately from the core rules. That doesnt mean they're an 'expansion' on top of the base game. Your opponent isn't prevented from taking an endless spell, or a balewind vortex, or an army of sylvaneth just because you haven't elected to buy those models.

There are plenty of reasons not to buy the endless spell box, plenty of reasons not to be interested, but calling them an optional add-on (and the implication that your opponent can veto your being able to take them) is disingenuous.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz wrote:
From the Warhammer Community article (emphasis added)

Got a wizard in your army? Get this expansion, and they’ll have 13 new endless spells to play with, summoned sorceries with massive in-game effects...

Inside the Malign Sorcery box, you’ll find the full Malign Sorcery supplement – your guide to magic in the Mortal Realms. This book takes a closer look at magical lore in the Age of Sigmar, and the arcane materials that accumulate in each realm, such as Aetherquartz and Cyclestone. There are pages of spectacular new art and background depicting the unbound living magic rampant across each of the realms. You’ll even find painting guides for many of the endless spells, to help you get them ready for your own games.

Nevermind, I stand corrected.

**Overread**

It's an optional addon that will hopefully prove popular enough that it becomes default in most player areas. Honestly I'd be ok with that evne if its just the perma spells that become default - the idea of magic being not just a roll on the dice but an actual thing in the physical area of the game is a really neat thing and it gives the game a difference to 40K

**auticus**

I'll be using them in my campaigns.

**Marmatag**

Technically any new model kit is an expansion of the game. The term doesn't carry the same weight here as it does in video game land.

Essentially saying, "I don't want to play the endless spells expansion" means you aren't playing matched play anymore as they are a facet of matched play; you're playing house rules where certain things are disallowed.

**Skimask Mohawk**

Do we know that for sure? Because they call it both an expansion and a supplement.

Is there any solid info about it being core rules and not something extra like say storm of magic, malign portents, or anything else that wasn't core?

Just looking out for my wallet

**EnTyme**

Ghaz wrote:

They say it's an expansion, plus there's more in the book than just the rules for the endless spells.

Just be aware that this is labelled as an expansion as well, and I don't think anyone is going to argue that those models aren't part of the core game. As Marmatag pointed out, "expansion" means something different in the context of wargames.

**Overread**

I think when the "expansion" is clearly just an army box of existing models in the existing codex and used with the core rules then its clearly just an army expansion in terms of expanding your model collection.

When said expansion comes with its own rule book and unique models that are not tied to a single army and which thus require an additional resource to use in addition to hte core rules then clearly its an "expansion" of those core rules.

Ergo its an addon - ergo its optional. You can play Sigmar without the magic addition.

Of course many players will use it and chances are it wil lbe the default expected feature in most games. But its no more a requirement than Apoc or Cities of Death or any of the other number of rules expansions.

**auticus**

I feel that its an expansion or an option the same as the Time of wars are. They make a cool optional addition but are not required.

If we're looking for "its core, therefore players MUST allow it to be used" I think we're barking up the wrong tree. Particularly when a few things were part of the old core rules that were never used (hell special terrain is something a lot of people actively don't use and thats one example)

**ERJAK**

Overread wrote:
It's an optional addon that will hopefully prove popular enough that it becomes default in most player areas. Honestly I'd be ok with that evne if its just the perma spells that become default - the idea of magic being not just a roll on the dice but an actual thing in the physical area of the game is a really neat thing and it gives the game a difference to 40K

I'd bet good money that the endless spells get adopted into the matched play scene almost immediately. They cost points, they come with obvious counter-play, they help mitigate the double turn. The endless spells are honestly pretty great.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EnTyme wrote:
Ghaz wrote:

They say it's an expansion, plus there's more in the book than just the rules for the endless spells.

Just be aware that this is labelled as an expansion as well, and I don't think anyone is going to argue that those models aren't part of the core game. As Marmatag pointed out, "expansion" means something different in the context of wargames.

What word you use for it is irrelevant. The question is always 'will people want to use this in their games enough to not just ignore it' and I think endless spells are well enough designed that they'll see adoption.

For those of you that play 40k too, remember, death from the skies wasn't optional, and how'd that go for them?

**Ghaz**

ERJAK wrote:
Overread wrote:
It's an optional addon that will hopefully prove popular enough that it becomes default in most player areas. Honestly I'd be ok with that evne if its just the perma spells that become default - the idea of magic being not just a roll on the dice but an actual thing in the physical area of the game is a really neat thing and it gives the game a difference to 40K

I'd bet good money that the endless spells get adopted into the matched play scene almost immediately. They cost points, they come with obvious counter-play, they help mitigate the double turn. The endless spells are honestly pretty great.

Yeah, what's another case of miniatures you have to haul down to the FLGS just to play

**Overread**

Ghaz wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Overread wrote:
It's an optional addon that will hopefully prove popular enough that it becomes default in most player areas. Honestly I'd be ok with that evne if its just the perma spells that become default - the idea of magic being not just a roll on the dice but an actual thing in the physical area of the game is a really neat thing and it gives the game a difference to 40K

I'd bet good money that the endless spells get adopted into the matched play scene almost immediately. They cost points, they come with obvious counter-play, they help mitigate the double turn. The endless spells are honestly pretty great.

Yeah, what's another case of miniatures you have to haul down to the FLGS just to play

To be fair barring the barrier spells and the giant ball most of them are not super huge. Heck by modern standards the yare pretty small considering the flying turtles and knights and other big stuff GW throws at us today.

But yeah I'd also agree that there's a very high chance that the perma spells will enter into mainstream gaming very fast. As an expansion its a neat way for GW to test the waters with this idea and if it isn't taken up it won't hurt the core product. Whilst if it is they can easily build upon it.

I can see it being a really big feature of fantasy in the future and something that helps Sigmar stand apart not just from Warhammer 40K but also a LOT (if not nearly all) other model ranges

**Ghaz**

Maybe if it does well, we'll see it adapted for 40k...

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Its also not "another box of miniatures you need to bring to play". :-p Its a part of your army, you presumably paint points for. If it isn't a part of your list, why are you bringing all the spells?

**Ghaz**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its also not "another box of miniatures you need to bring to play". :-p Its a part of your army, you presumably paint points for. If it isn't a part of your list, why are you bringing all the spells?

That's assuming you put your list together before you left the house...

**EnTyme**

I really doubt endless spells will be any more optional than any other unit you pay points for. We've even seen how their mechanics interact with the double turn. I guess there isn't any point in arguing, though. We'll know for sure in about a week.

**auticus**

Kind of like some people and events ban forgeworld even though you pay points for that stuff too.

**Skimask Mohawk**

I dont care either way about using the spells, but I have to admit that if they're not core I'll happily axe the double turn again

**EnTyme**

auticus wrote:
Kind of like some people and events ban forgeworld even though you pay points for that stuff too.

Pretty much. That restriction is just as arbitrary.

**Marmatag**

There is a difference though, people were banning Forgeworld when there were clear problematic units, completely lacking in balance. Malefic Lords, Big Bird, there were numerous smoking guns... And forgeworld rules writers aren't GW rules writers; further, FW was not included in GW or closed playtesting. Lastly, there was a history of restricting Forgeworld, it was relatively recent that it was even allowed in a broad sense.

Meanwhile, this is an addition of new models to the core game, by the same design team that created and maintains the edition, and are accessible to anyone. We don't know how they function. Talking about restricting or banning these at this juncture is about as premature as it gets. New editions bring change... don't be afraid, 8th edition was a massive step up from 7th, and this will probably be a significant lessons learned from 1.0, and 40k 8th. Except the double turn, for some reason that slice of awful stupid is sticking around, masquerading as a delicious piece of the AoS pumpkin pie.

**Overread**

I don't think anyone is afraid of change.

Indeed most people it seems want the magic in the game and are expecting it to be standard. It's more of a debate on what is allowed to be called an "expansion" and what should be considered "core" rules/components of the game.

It's basically arguing about "can my opponent deny me this rightfully even though I've bought it" or "can I expect to see this in any pick-up game or have to ask for it specifically."

Many people maintain that the core rules and codex/army book is the core of the game. From there you get things like the Magic addition here, or Cities of Death or Apoc which expand the core rules with new features. Then you've got Forgeworld unique units which, again, expand upon the games core army rosters.

Some maintain that these expansions are "legal" and thus justifiable to take in any pick-up game. Myself I've always held the view that they are perfectly fine to take, but that as they expand from the core its the kind of thing you agree with in advance with your opponent.

A simple "Hey lets play Sigmar, with the magic rules and FW models ok?"

**EnTyme**

I'm just struggling to see how this spell kit is any different from say taking a couple Battlemages in a Stormcast army. You're not really adding a layer to the game like you are with things like Cities of Death or Apocalypse, you're just adding another warscroll to your army.

**Marleymoo**

Anybody else think the, 'A Chainrasp Horde has any number of models.' a bit odd. Normally they specify the minimum amount.

Do individual models have point costs now?

**EnTyme**

The description on the warscroll is more for Open Play or Narrative Play. If a unit has a minimum size (x models cost y points), it'll be listed on the Match Play profile.