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 Marmatag wrote:
There is a difference though, people were banning Forgeworld when there were clear problematic units, completely lacking in balance. Malefic Lords, Big Bird, there were numerous smoking guns... And forgeworld rules writers aren't GW rules writers; further, FW was not included in GW or closed playtesting. Lastly, there was a history of restricting Forgeworld, it was relatively recent that it was even allowed in a broad sense.

Meanwhile, this is an addition of new models to the core game, by the same design team that created and maintains the edition, and are accessible to anyone. We don't know how they function. Talking about restricting or banning these at this juncture is about as premature as it gets. New editions bring change... don't be afraid, 8th edition was a massive step up from 7th, and this will probably be a significant lessons learned from 1.0, and 40k 8th. Except the double turn, for some reason that slice of awful stupid is sticking around, masquerading as a delicious piece of the AoS pumpkin pie.

Ok I'll give another example from 40k. Knights. GW models. When they came out many people and events banned either the whole army of knights or got even to the extreme of removing them altogether from the game. Same concept.

Let it be known I am using all of this stuff in my games, so I'm not against it at all.

I think we're arguing the same point, auticus. I'm sure there will be people who try to ban stuff like the endless spells from their games or tournaments, but doing so is just as arbitrary as banning a specific army or unit. To me, these spells look to be as much a part of the game as any other kit.

Yeah. We will see how things pan out. For me personally what the tournament community does won't impact me, I plan on using everything... because its fun as hell and why would you not

Marleymoo wrote:
Do individual models have point costs now?

Doubt it, but I still wish GW would give AoS points as in 40k points as opposed to points as in 40k power levels. Make the current points granular and replace the simplified structure with renown levels as an analogous version to power levels. Would totally love to see that happen.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Marleymoo wrote:
Do individual models have point costs now?

Doubt it, but I still wish GW would give AoS points as in 40k points as opposed to points as in 40k power levels. Make the current points granular and replace the simplified structure with renown levels as an analogous version to power levels. Would totally love to see that happen.

I'd be good with more granularity, too, to at the very least differentiate weapon load outs for units. Even if it wasn't a full per-model thing (though I wouldn't mind that, either).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Marleymoo wrote:
Do individual models have point costs now?

Doubt it, but I still wish GW would give AoS points as in 40k points as opposed to points as in 40k power levels. Make the current points granular and replace the simplified structure with renown levels as an analogous version to power levels. Would totally love to see that happen.

Why in the sweet hells would you want that?

We don't have enough options in AoS' arsenals to be justifying them mucking about with that crap.

I personally would like it. My dog ate a model and so i have a squad thats down a model and its 15 bucks on ebay to replace it from a 30$ kit on ebay. I'd rather have a squad of 9. And it's a 5 man squad of 180 points. It's 36 points a model. Let me take 4 models at 144 points. I won't even get access to the special weapon as it's a 1 per 5.

I think non granular points are as alien to people as the concept of pointless gaming was on launch to be honest.

Games like saga do it, but to the masses, granular points are as necessary as oxygen and water.

auticus wrote:
I think non granular points are as alien to people as the concept of pointless gaming was on launch to be honest.

Games like saga do it, but to the masses, granular points are as necessary as oxygen and water.

I think this is especially true for folks who cut their teeth on non-historical games (which tend to not even have points, or very abstract). GW games in particular have always had fairly granular points from what I remember, with the exception being, well AOS.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Marleymoo wrote:
Do individual models have point costs now?

Doubt it, but I still wish GW would give AoS points as in 40k points as opposed to points as in 40k power levels. Make the current points granular and replace the simplified structure with renown levels as an analogous version to power levels. Would totally love to see that happen.

Why in the sweet hells would you want that?

We don't have enough options in AoS' arsenals to be justifying them mucking about with that crap.

When was the last time you saw Judicators with crossbows on the table? Hell, how many players even know that option exists?

Ditto for many other warscrolls.

My main stormcast opponent has them, simply because he built them that way cause he liked their look. I've played against them once and while they weren't awful, they didn't do much. Also to be fair, he wanted to see if 30 liberators in a squad was good... it's not.

Carnith wrote:
My main stormcast opponent has them, simply because he built them that way cause he liked their look. I've played against them once and while they weren't awful, they didn't do much. Also to be fair, he wanted to see if 30 liberators in a squad was good... it's not.

OP as all hell with that one battalion, called harbinger or something...? Lets them teleport to a prosecutor unit without a minimum range to the enemy.

 Valander wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Marleymoo wrote:
Do individual models have point costs now?

Doubt it, but I still wish GW would give AoS points as in 40k points as opposed to points as in 40k power levels. Make the current points granular and replace the simplified structure with renown levels as an analogous version to power levels. Would totally love to see that happen.

I'd be good with more granularity, too, to at the very least differentiate weapon load outs for units. Even if it wasn't a full per-model thing (though I wouldn't mind that, either).

Why? 90% of units don't have any significant difference between their weapons profiles(3+ 4+ vs 4+ 3+ ooh) And the ones that do have one that is so clearly superior to the other (judicators) that it would either still be auto-take or it would be priced out and no one would take the unit at all. I'm editing to emphasize this, if they put a separate cost on crossbows vs regular bows it's much more likely that Judicators see themselves shelved than given crossbows simply because the crossbows don't have a workable function. The short range makes them bad at pretty much everything.

AoS really has very little to gain from a 40k 'granular' point system. Sure a few underused options would see more play but ultimately balance would be almost exactly the same and the vast majority of units would have the same loadouts(if the upgrade pricing was correct.).


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Carnith wrote:
My main stormcast opponent has them, simply because he built them that way cause he liked their look. I've played against them once and while they weren't awful, they didn't do much. Also to be fair, he wanted to see if 30 liberators in a squad was good... it's not.

OP as all hell with that one battalion, called harbinger or something...? Lets them teleport to a prosecutor unit without a minimum range to the enemy.

Vanguard wing, and they FAQed it to still have to land outside of 3"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Marleymoo wrote:
Do individual models have point costs now?

Doubt it, but I still wish GW would give AoS points as in 40k points as opposed to points as in 40k power levels. Make the current points granular and replace the simplified structure with renown levels as an analogous version to power levels. Would totally love to see that happen.

Why in the sweet hells would you want that?

To use my 4 warbosses on foot and without the Waaagh! Banner without feeling stupid for not taking him on a boar with the Waaagh! Banner, for example.

Or to help people internalize that 6 kurnoth hunters with bows are not as dead killy as the same number of hunters with scythes.

Ugh the last thing the game needs is ultra granular point costs.

My view is that imbalances in AoS stem from mechanics more than points. Some stuff just spits out way too many mortal wounds per turn.

Yep and thats a cornerstone of competitive builds in AOS. Maximize on as many mortal wounds as you can get your hands on.

Points in general, be them granular or what they are now, will never be remotely balanced while GW avoids hiring statisticians.

I think a big reason people don't understand how big of a difference non-granular costs make is because the victims are more or less unseen. There are tons of options that simply never get used because they are less than ideal. I'm not talking where the profile is 3+/4+ vs 4+/3+ such things would obviously just cost the same (duh!). I'm talking about...

-Phoenix without an Annointed riding it
-Hurricanum without a wizard on top
-Foot characters that pay points for a horse (there are a number of them)
-Tzaangor Enlightened on foot
-Vampire Lord on Dragon with options other than Shield & Blood Chalice
-Infantry without shields (currently a free upgrade)
-Stormcast Paladins without 2 per 5 starsoul maces (one could make these mortal wound spammers cost more...)
-Ogor Tyrant with weapons other than dual wield & pistol

I could go on. There's a ton of cool options out there for armies and general diversity that unfortunately is largely eliminated in a power level setting. Part of it for me is I was able to play with these things being distinct options that had differing costs using fan points from before the GHB, so I've seen how nice it is. I'd really like to be able to play that way again.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think a big reason people don't understand how big of a difference non-granular costs make is because the victims are more or less unseen. There are tons of options that simply never get used because they are less than ideal. I'm not talking where the profile is 3+/4+ vs 4+/3+ such things would obviously just cost the same (duh!). I'm talking about...

-Phoenix without an Annointed riding it
-Hurricanum without a wizard on top
-Foot characters that pay points for a horse (there are a number of them)
-Tzaangor Enlightened on foot
-Vampire Lord on Dragon with options other than Shield & Blood Chalice
-Infantry without shields (currently a free upgrade)
-Stormcast Paladins without 2 per 5 starsoul maces (one could make these mortal wound spammers cost more...)
-Ogor Tyrant with weapons other than dual wield & pistol

I could go on. There's a ton of cool options out there for armies and general diversity that unfortunately is largely eliminated in a power level setting. Part of it for me is I was able to play with these things being distinct options that had differing costs using fan points from before the GHB, so I've seen how nice it is. I'd really like to be able to play that way again.

I honestly like this because theres some loadouts that just will never be seen. People laughed when they said "oh hey, put enlightened on foot... or for an extra wound, massive movement, and the Daemon keyword, put them on a mount for free" cause it made no sense not to put them on there. For my Ironjaw Brutes, to me, the claw and weapon is always better. When you use the +attack command ability, you get 2 extra attacks, one with the claw, and one with the club. It's just too good not to use them, but the Boss Choppa should have its place, sadly it doesn't feel like it does.

TBF the boss choppa does have it's place when you're allying brutes in rather than running pure Ironjawz. But yeah, I'm right there with you overall.

I don't think the problem is wide spread enough that we need to revamp the entire point system. I think a lot of those would be easier to fix by making some of these into different warscrolls.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
I don't think the problem is wide spread enough that we need to revamp the entire point system. I think a lot of those would be easier to fix by making some of these into different warscrolls.

I agree with this. Have one scroll for Freguild General, and one for Freeguild General on Horseback. Things like the Starsoul Mace would be tougher to do, but you could just change them to 1 per 5 or something similar to make them less spammable.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
I don't think the problem is wide spread enough that we need to revamp the entire point system. I think a lot of those would be easier to fix by making some of these into different warscrolls.

What's weird is that they took the time to do different warscrolls for stuff that they ceased production on(I have warscrolls for the Glade Lord on Great Stag, Great Eagle, Forest Dragon, and Steed--none of them have models anymore) but then you have stuff like the Freeguild General and the Order Draconis hero or the Dreadlord on Black Dragon(not even an option for a Drakespawn Chariot or one on foot/Drakespawn) for Order Serpentis.

Hopefully they're going to be addressing this.

40k has different datasheets (warscrolls) for units that are mounted. "Captain on bike" versus "Captain."

They should follow this model in AoS.

Looks like Evocators will be one of the new OP units for Stormcast (who needed more, right....). UGH!

I sure hope they cost an appropriate amount

I wouldn't hold your breath on costing correctly lol.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
I don't think the problem is wide spread enough that we need to revamp the entire point system. I think a lot of those would be easier to fix by making some of these into different warscrolls.

I agree with this. Have one scroll for Freguild General, and one for Freeguild General on Horseback. Things like the Starsoul Mace would be tougher to do, but you could just change them to 1 per 5 or something similar to make them less spammable.

The funny thing here is how that doesn't address the banner option for the general being worth much more. In this case it would need to be general on foot, general on foot with banner, general on horse, general on horse with banner. You see the obvious issue. It also doesn't address weapon upgrades, command groups, units with powerful but non-scaling abilities, or something that a lot of people want which is buying units by model rather than in blocks. A player that wants to run 8 liberators must pay for 10. 30 clanrats must pay for 40, etc. It really is a very widespread problem that can go unnoticed because people don't realize what they are missing. Again, I've played it both ways and found AoS has a ton of diversity left behind by using only power levels.

If only... there were fan comps that could address these issues?

At face value that looks brokenly overpowered.

Hey look, free mortal wounds like crazy. If you bring a blob of 10 of these, that would be 20 dice dealing mortal wounds on a 4+. Even with 5 of them, 10 dice looking for 4s, just flat dealing mortal wounds? That's insane, even a Mega Boss on Maw Krusha can't get to these level of mortal wounds.

This is kind of what I was ranting about a few weeks ago... GW doubling down on mortal wound spam and then saying "so now its ok to summon spam".


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And stormcast have been since inception the faction that can deliver the most mortal wounds... which is why they've been a powergaming favorite since inception of AOS.