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 Marmatag wrote:
At face value that looks brokenly overpowered.

Hey look, free mortal wounds like crazy. If you bring a blob of 10 of these, that would be 20 dice dealing mortal wounds on a 4+. Even with 5 of them, 10 dice looking for 4s, just flat dealing mortal wounds? That's insane, even a Mega Boss on Maw Krusha can't get to these level of mortal wounds.

They're models that will likely be costed similar to Wizards(meaning a bit higher prices), can only cast a single spell(Empower) while they're a unit of 2 or more models. They have an ability that is specifically tied to them getting into CC.

We have no idea of unit sizes for matched play. These cards are for Open Play.

auticus wrote:
This is kind of what I was ranting about a few weeks ago... GW doubling down on mortal wound spam and then saying "so now its ok to summon spam".


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And stormcast have been since inception the faction that can deliver the most mortal wounds... which is why they've been a powergaming favorite since inception of AOS.

I can deliver more Mortal Wounds with Nurgle or Tzeentch than Stormcast could dream of.

"Can" and "does" aren't the same thing, you know that Kan.

At any rate, it's all in the point cost. At 200 per 3 I don't think there'd be a problem.

I have a Seraphon Army so i'll compare to a similar type unit: Kroxigor (180pts per 3 models)

4 Wounds, 8" movement, 10 Bravery, 4+ save
maul: 4 Att, 4+, 3+, 2 dmg
moon hammer: all models within 2", 4+, 3+, -1 rend, 2dmg
jaws: 1 att, 4+, 3+, -1 rend, 1 dmg

can re-roll wound rolls of 1 within 3" of skinks
steel trap jaws can cause mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6, but only if player's roll is greater than opponent's roll, but attack can cause no damage if = or less than opponent's roll.

If Evocators (theoretically) are 200pts per 3 models, which unit would you rather have?

Personally, I'd take 6 Evocators over 6 Kroxigors any day of the week.

Most of the units I've seen with "any number of models" on their warscroll have been 3-6 in Match Play, so I would expect something similar for them. They definitely look scary, but I'm willing to hold off until I see a profile before I panic. I do have the nagging feeling they'll end up as a "Battleline if . . . " unit, though.

Battleline if... undercosted... high damage output with the mortal wound spam... utility spell... yeah.

The stormcast players are prepping their favorite socks and bottles of jergens.

The worst part is that just about any Order army will be able to ally them in.

utrage wrote:
I have a Seraphon Army so i'll compare to a similar type unit: Kroxigor (180pts per 3 models)

4 Wounds, 8" movement, 10 Bravery, 4+ save
maul: 4 Att, 4+, 3+, 2 dmg
moon hammer: all models within 2", 4+, 3+, -1 rend, 2dmg
jaws: 1 att, 4+, 3+, -1 rend, 1 dmg

can re-roll wound rolls of 1 within 3" of skinks
steel trap jaws can cause mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6, but only if player's roll is greater than opponent's roll, but attack can cause no damage if = or less than opponent's roll.

If Evocators (theoretically) are 200pts per 3 models, which unit would you rather have?

Personally, I'd take 6 Evocators over 6 Kroxigors any day of the week.

Well let's crunch some numbers. Fighting each other we are looking at 4.5 wounds from Kroxogor compared to 6.5 wounds from Evocators, not counting buffs on either side or potential mortals from bites. Seems good for the Evocators.

But lets put them against, say, 20 skeletons. We are looking at at least 6 models in range of the moonstone mace, assuming the skeletons aren't bunched up to maximize their own attack power (they likely would be, but for the sake of example we'll say no).

Evocators are now doing 7.8 wounds average, with Kroxigor doing 7.8 as well. Still looking good for the Evocators, but consider the Kroxigor have three more wounds and will do significantly more damage after losing some of the unit. Re calculating assuming each unit has suffered 6 wounds, the averages go to 2.5 for Evocators verses 5.3 for Kroxigor.

Ultimately I'd say Evocators have the edge, but then they also cost 20 points more. I couldn't say I preferred one or the other because they are used for different things and depend on what else is in the army to see how useful they will be. This it what things should be when comparing units, an argument that will be rendered moot when Evocators come out at 160 points per 3

auticus wrote:
Battleline if... undercosted... high damage output with the mortal wound spam... utility spell... yeah.

The stormcast players are prepping their favorite socks and bottles of jergens.

Now, where did you see that the Evocators are "Battleline if"?

Also: Whittle the unit down and it ceases to be a Wizard.


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 EnTyme wrote:
The worst part is that just about any Order army will be able to ally them in.

Honestly, I'd actually say that's a good thing. Them plus the mage Knight looks like a solid, fluffy way for people to add a Wizard and her Mage-Knight bodyguards in...but well y'know, I guess it's bad when fluff and rules collide to a good extent.

It was being silly. No where says it... its just with these type of units they tend to go off the deep end with them.

auticus wrote:
It was being silly. No where says it... its just with these type of units they tend to go off the deep end with them.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

I mean, we all remember that Paladins are "Battleline If". And man, those Vanguard-Hunters are just gamebreaking!

Those skaven stormfiends sure caused a lot of people to say "eff AOS" for a few months.

auticus wrote:
Those skaven stormfiends sure caused a lot of people to say "eff AOS" for a few months.

They did the same in 8th, so that shouldn't exactly be earthshattering news.

Skaven, in general, tend to be broken. Sometimes it goes broken in a "why would I ever take that?!" way and sometimes it goes broken in a "why would I never take that?!" way.

Which is exactly my point in not being shocked if stuff like what we are seeing now is undercost and also battleline like stormfiends.

Its not outside of the realm of something GW would do or hasn't already done in the past.

#Stormfiendsdidnothingwrong

auticus wrote:
Battleline if... undercosted... high damage output with the mortal wound spam... utility spell... yeah.

The stormcast players are prepping their favorite socks and bottles of jergens.

No they aren't because in general they understand how the game works and how the game works is: No delivery system=useless hunks of plastic. If they don't get something better than Scions of the storm to get across the table they might as well just be liberators. This is the exact problem Paladins run into and the degree to which evocators would have to be superior to be worthwhile is unlikely to happen. Retributors right now see almost no play at 220 simply due to the Hammerstrike being their own reliable way to get where they need to go. Even at 180 they'd still be too unwieldy to use reliably. Evocators will have exactly the same problem unless they get a reliable way to hit the front lines.

This may be unpopular but to me if you need a guaranteed turn 1 alpha strike or some kind of mechanic to give you the ability to shove guys into contact without risk of being hurt first to consider something good, there might be some other issues (unless I'm just totally misunderstanding you). I'd also say wargaming may not be for you, since using the battlefield and outmaneuvering your opponent to get your key units into combat should be part of what makes a battle a battle... not just drawing the pokemon card and saying "KeiShu contact your unit <rolls dice>"

Retributors are seen in every stormcast list here. So I don't know about the "they almost see no play". They also tear apart the casual lists pretty easy. You also know I only play in the campaign crowd, so whether or not they are using retributors in their tournaments I couldn't say, but in campaign play they are wrecking balls.

If these units dropped even more in points there would be no reason to even try to play casually anymore and on my power sheets they are ranked pretty high in efficiency, meaning they are still a tad UNDERcosted.

 Kanluwen wrote:

auticus wrote:
Battleline if... undercosted... high damage output with the mortal wound spam... utility spell... yeah.

The stormcast players are prepping their favorite socks and bottles of jergens.

Now, where did you see that the Evocators are "Battleline if"?

Also: Whittle the unit down and it ceases to be a Wizard.

I think he was referring to my statement about how I had a nagging feeling they would be a "battleline if . . ." unit. I was mostly just exaggerating to point out how this is a unit with the potential to be horribly unbalanced if not handle carefully.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
The worst part is that just about any Order army will be able to ally them in.

Honestly, I'd actually say that's a good thing. Them plus the mage Knight looks like a solid, fluffy way for people to add a Wizard and her Mage-Knight bodyguards in...but well y'know, I guess it's bad when fluff and rules collide to a good extent.

There is nothing wrong with fluff and rules colliding. I love it when that happens. The issue is that I've yet to see a comparable unit which can be included in every Destruction army, nor Chaos nor Death. If Evocators aren't properly costed, they'll be an auto-include for Order armies, and something this powerful will tip the scales heavily in favor of Order.

ERJAK wrote:

auticus wrote:
Battleline if... undercosted... high damage output with the mortal wound spam... utility spell... yeah.

The stormcast players are prepping their favorite socks and bottles of jergens.

No they aren't because in general they understand how the game works and how the game works is: No delivery system=useless hunks of plastic. If they don't get something better than Scions of the storm to get across the table they might as well just be liberators. This is the exact problem Paladins run into and the degree to which evocators would have to be superior to be worthwhile is unlikely to happen. Retributors right now see almost no play at 220 simply due to the Hammerstrike being their own reliable way to get where they need to go. Even at 180 they'd still be too unwieldy to use reliably. Evocators will have exactly the same problem unless they get a reliable way to hit the front lines.

I'm a little bit unsure where this is coming from. Is there a way to avoid melee in this game? How are you destroying these things before they get into combat? I play death. I can cast spells and kill one unit... but i'm eating a gak ton of mortal wounds one way or the other.

The stormcast podcast dropped a couple of bits of new info. Flesh Eater Courts units will not be able to grow beyond their original size and some points have been changed to account for the new summoning abilities.
There will inevitably be some winners and Losers in Aos2, but with points drops and increases as well as the relative unreliability of some of the summoning, the answers may not be as obvious as we thought.

Chikout wrote:
The stormcast podcast dropped a couple of bits of new info. Flesh Eater Courts units will not be able to grow beyond their original size and some points have been changed to account for the new summoning abilities.
There will inevitably be some winners and Losers in Aos2, but with points drops and increases as well as the relative unreliability of some of the summoning, the answers may not be as obvious as we thought.

Increasing the cost of summoning units but allowing them to return from the dead....I mean, in game modes based on total kill points, these lists auto-lose.

 Marmatag wrote:

Chikout wrote:
The stormcast podcast dropped a couple of bits of new info. Flesh Eater Courts units will not be able to grow beyond their original size and some points have been changed to account for the new summoning abilities.
There will inevitably be some winners and Losers in Aos2, but with points drops and increases as well as the relative unreliability of some of the summoning, the answers may not be as obvious as we thought.

Increasing the cost of summoning units but allowing them to return from the dead....I mean, in game modes based on total kill points, these lists auto-lose.

That entirety depends on the points changes. It's not like ghoul kings are going to increase by more than a hundred points. Also aos games are not usually decided by kill points.

I'm a little bit unsure where this is coming from. Is there a way to avoid melee in this game? How are you destroying these things before they get into combat? I play death. I can cast spells and kill one unit... but i'm eating a gak ton of mortal wounds one way or the other.

You find this same sentiment in 40k, where if you cannot alpha strike turn 1 with a melee unit, then it is considered 'garbage' because it can be targeted and shot at before it gets into melee.

auticus wrote:

I'm a little bit unsure where this is coming from. Is there a way to avoid melee in this game? How are you destroying these things before they get into combat? I play death. I can cast spells and kill one unit... but i'm eating a gak ton of mortal wounds one way or the other.

You find this same sentiment in 40k, where if you cannot alpha strike turn 1 with a melee unit, then it is considered 'garbage' because it can be targeted and shot at before it gets into melee.

You're letting your local scene push you into grand statements again. And your lack of knowledge of another game show. In regards to 40k you can't 1st turn alpha period anymore because they removed that options. Additionally in 40k good combat units need to be able to appear and strike as in general 75%+ of damage is done by shooting which is generally inverted with AoS.

That said Retributors never find a home in my lists because of a) price and b) speed. They simply can't pick their battles. And if you can't pick your battles when the game goes horde then all those mortals wounds are so much waste. It really is that simple. Unable to choose where to hit + lots of large units where mortals are less useful = currently hot garbage.

 Hulksmash wrote:

auticus wrote:

I'm a little bit unsure where this is coming from. Is there a way to avoid melee in this game? How are you destroying these things before they get into combat? I play death. I can cast spells and kill one unit... but i'm eating a gak ton of mortal wounds one way or the other.

You find this same sentiment in 40k, where if you cannot alpha strike turn 1 with a melee unit, then it is considered 'garbage' because it can be targeted and shot at before it gets into melee.

You're letting your local scene push you into grand statements again. And your lack of knowledge of another game show. In regards to 40k you can't 1st turn alpha period anymore because they removed that options. Additionally in 40k good combat units need to be able to appear and strike as in general 75%+ of damage is done by shooting which is generally inverted with AoS.

That said Retributors never find a home in my lists because of a) price and b) speed. They simply can't pick their battles. And if you can't pick your battles when the game goes horde then all those mortals wounds are so much waste. It really is that simple. Unable to choose where to hit + lots of large units where mortals are less useful = currently hot garbage.

He just said that the sentiment exists (it does). Also you have statements with that sentiment in AoS literally right up the page, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Also, no offense but if you can't get use out of Retributors it isn't the unit. Tournament players manage them just fine. To call the unit hot garbage is just... Simply untrue. Doubly so for saying that a unit designed to fight enemy elites is bad at killing hordes, that's not their role. "They can't pick their targets" is no defense here because again, that isn't the fault of the unit.

 Hulksmash wrote:

auticus wrote:

I'm a little bit unsure where this is coming from. Is there a way to avoid melee in this game? How are you destroying these things before they get into combat? I play death. I can cast spells and kill one unit... but i'm eating a gak ton of mortal wounds one way or the other.

You find this same sentiment in 40k, where if you cannot alpha strike turn 1 with a melee unit, then it is considered 'garbage' because it can be targeted and shot at before it gets into melee.

You're letting your local scene push you into grand statements again. And your lack of knowledge of another game show. In regards to 40k you can't 1st turn alpha period anymore because they removed that options. Additionally in 40k good combat units need to be able to appear and strike as in general 75%+ of damage is done by shooting which is generally inverted with AoS.

That said Retributors never find a home in my lists because of a) price and b) speed. They simply can't pick their battles. And if you can't pick your battles when the game goes horde then all those mortals wounds are so much waste. It really is that simple. Unable to choose where to hit + lots of large units where mortals are less useful = currently hot garbage.

Lol they didn't remove the ability to alpha strike. Warptime still very much exists, as does ynnari shinning spears.

That being said, the sentiment is more appropriate since the game is literally mostly shooting by design.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

auticus wrote:

I'm a little bit unsure where this is coming from. Is there a way to avoid melee in this game? How are you destroying these things before they get into combat? I play death. I can cast spells and kill one unit... but i'm eating a gak ton of mortal wounds one way or the other.

You find this same sentiment in 40k, where if you cannot alpha strike turn 1 with a melee unit, then it is considered 'garbage' because it can be targeted and shot at before it gets into melee.

You're letting your local scene push you into grand statements again. And your lack of knowledge of another game show. In regards to 40k you can't 1st turn alpha period anymore because they removed that options. Additionally in 40k good combat units need to be able to appear and strike as in general 75%+ of damage is done by shooting which is generally inverted with AoS.

That said Retributors never find a home in my lists because of a) price and b) speed. They simply can't pick their battles. And if you can't pick your battles when the game goes horde then all those mortals wounds are so much waste. It really is that simple. Unable to choose where to hit + lots of large units where mortals are less useful = currently hot garbage.

He just said that the sentiment exists (it does). Also you have statements with that sentiment in AoS literally right up the page, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Also, no offense but if you can't get use out of Retributors it isn't the unit. Tournament players manage them just fine. To call the unit hot garbage is just... Simply untrue. Doubly so for saying that a unit designed to fight enemy elites is bad at killing hordes, that's not their role. "They can't pick their targets" is no defense here because again, that isn't the fault of the unit.

Man, any disagreement with you or Auticus and it's on with you isn't it? It's cute. I agree that he put sentiment the problem is that it's not true BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO IT. There is no sentiment for alpha strike turn 1 combat units because you can't alpha strike turn one. Which is what I pointed out

Regarding the unit I pointed out why they are hot garbage "currently". A good player with screening (upper level lists tend to have them) means you're not getting thru to juicy stuff, especially with no solid redeploy/speed options. Retributors aren't magically going to go around that unit of nurgle marauders/priests or horror of whatever stripe or skinks. Heck skeletons and ghouls stop them dead in their tracks. It might come down to tournament scenes but people at events I attend tend to have screens. You can magically say they are good and feature in good lists but no SCE army list I've seen that's placed high at larger events has had them. I've personally never seen them used by good players and I personally don't use them, though we've established that that part is on me cause I'm bad

The options for Paladins is a) deepstrike b) lightning chariot or c) walk. Unless you roll hot on your charge (18%) deepstrike and lightning aren't that good of an idea. Especially if he's still screening with juicy stuff. Essentially they are easy enough to avoid/ignore that engaging them isn't needed and if you do you can do with with whatever you choose to tie them down with. 10% of my list locked up in those is bad. That's not even taking into account magic which makes them sadder.


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Touche but essentially yes, they did. Warptime/Ynarri both still require the unit start in your deployment zone or deploy into your deployment zone. Meaning you only get alpha struck if you can't measure and deploy poorly which is different than going full alpha strike with melee units. That said that is the two examples who could on turn 1 get into combat. And I agree the sentiment makes more sense in the general "melee units need to be able to arrive and attack same turn or their toast" way.

In a casual scene, with casual lists, retributors very much wreck stuff pretty much at will. We also use screens.

In a tournament environment, I can't comment because I currently actively avoid those while the game is in the state it is in (for me).

The sentiment that if a melee unit cannot reliably get into combat by turn 1 or 2 then its garbage has been a sentiment since late 6th edition whfb, and is largely why 7th whfb was cavalry-hammer.

I don't see retributors as garbage at all in the context of non tournament gaming. They feature in almost every list I have to come across and they always do a number because of the gross amount of offensive output they put out.

Would those guys take the retributors at Adepticon? No idea.

But not every discussion needs to be about a unit in the vacuum of powergaming. Otherwise lets just go through the stores and remove 90% of the inventory because its not needed anyway.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It might come down to tournament scenes but people at events I attend tend to have screens.

You mean to tell me that tournament players saw a bunch of armies deepstriking turn one and adapted their list and strategy to compensate? I'm shocked that such a thing would happen in a strategy game with heavy list building elements.

So retributors are bad because screens can block them. That's just saying "this unit is bad because there is a tactic to use against it" which means nothing. Retributors don't exist in a vacuum without anything to support them. Again we circle back to you not knowing how to use a unit, so it must be bad. Also, if a unit doesn't show up in winning tournament lists it's bad? Really?

auticus wrote:
In a casual scene, with casual lists, retributors very much wreck stuff pretty much at will. We also use screens.

In a tournament environment, I can't comment because I currently actively avoid those while the game is in the state it is in (for me).

The sentiment that if a melee unit cannot reliably get into combat by turn 1 or 2 then its garbage has been a sentiment since late 6th edition whfb, and is largely why 7th whfb was cavalry-hammer.

I don't see retributors as garbage at all in the context of non tournament gaming. They feature in almost every list I have to come across and they always do a number because of the gross amount of offensive output they put out.

Would those guys take the retributors at Adepticon? No idea.

But not every discussion needs to be about a unit in the vacuum of powergaming. Otherwise lets just go through the stores and remove 90% of the inventory because its not needed anyway.

Absolutely. In non tourney play they can definitely have a place. That's where we see them too to be honest or I pull out a small squad for a game night because they drop my hard core list down a bit. Because while they hit hard they're a good way to teach newer players the importance of target selection and screening


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So retributors are bad because screens can block them. That's just saying "this unit is bad because there is a tactic to use against it" which means nothing. Retributors don't exist in a vacuum without anything to support them. Again we circle back to you not knowing how to use a unit, so it must be bad. Also, if a unit doesn't show up in winning tournament lists it's bad? Really?

I articulated numerous ways in which in a tournamen environment they were bad. You said "no, you just don't know how to use them" I replied why I wouldn't and in more detail why they are a poor choice. I also pointed out that I haven't seen a successful tournament army use them as a support for my position. If you think they're spectacular in the curgent set up I'd be more than happy to watch battle reports or see results where it shows something different but it's not happenig man. So take a breath and realize that not everything is and fight.

Additionally yes, if a 60pt screen can keep a 220 point unit busy/away for 3 turns minimum it's a bad unit when it's goal is to hit heavy stuff.