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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 00:38:32
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Clousseau
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As someone that has to deal with Kroak on a fairly regular basis, I'm all for showing Ben and the AOS team how busted he is if he's doing something like that, because the seraphon player here will do that to me every chance he can get too and I don't see a point in playing a game like that, we can just give him the win and find something else more fun to do with that time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 00:49:27
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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NinthMusketeer wrote:No model should ever be doing that many mortal wounds in a whole game, let alone one turn. Period. It doesn't matter who was playing it, why they were doing it, what the scenario was, what he was fighting against, or anything else. One model Should. Not. Deal. That. Many. Mortals.
On the contrary, it absolutely does matter the how and the why.
Purportedly from the opponent himself, the guy blew all 5 spells from Kroak(remember, he's on a Balewind Vortex) casting "Celestial Deliverance" repeatedly. He used Foresight in order to have rerolls for if it went bad.
That's 5 chances for every unit in 3D6+6 inches of Kroak to potentially take D6 wounds, with him having rerolls on hand to get things really shaking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 00:56:39
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Kanluwen wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote:No model should ever be doing that many mortal wounds in a whole game, let alone one turn. Period. It doesn't matter who was playing it, why they were doing it, what the scenario was, what he was fighting against, or anything else. One model Should. Not. Deal. That. Many. Mortals.
On the contrary, it absolutely does matter the how and the why.
Purportedly from the opponent himself, the guy blew all 5 spells from Kroak(remember, he's on a Balewind Vortex) casting "Celestial Deliverance" repeatedly. He used Foresight in order to have rerolls for if it went bad.
That's 5 chances for every unit in 3D6+6 inches of Kroak to potentially take D6 wounds, with him having rerolls on hand to get things really shaking.
I don't know. I don't like my warhammer to have an Exodia trick.
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 00:59:42
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Clousseau
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I don't like playing a game that doesn't need playing. If I'm chaos and my opponent is rolling kroak on his balewind, just GG and go find something else to do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 02:33:28
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Kanluwen wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote:No model should ever be doing that many mortal wounds in a whole game, let alone one turn. Period. It doesn't matter who was playing it, why they were doing it, what the scenario was, what he was fighting against, or anything else. One model Should. Not. Deal. That. Many. Mortals.
On the contrary, it absolutely does matter the how and the why.
Purportedly from the opponent himself, the guy blew all 5 spells from Kroak(remember, he's on a Balewind Vortex) casting "Celestial Deliverance" repeatedly. He used Foresight in order to have rerolls for if it went bad.
That's 5 chances for every unit in 3D6+6 inches of Kroak to potentially take D6 wounds, with him having rerolls on hand to get things really shaking.
I don't care. It shouldn't be possible.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 03:50:11
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Slaanesh Daemons army. 5 casts with D6 per unit being targeted.
It's a bit of a joke to be getting upset about this particular thing when it really does require a perfect storm of circumstances.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 04:28:58
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Kanluwen wrote:
Slaanesh Daemons army. 5 casts with D6 per unit being targeted.
It's a bit of a joke to be getting upset about this particular thing when it really does require a perfect storm of circumstances.
You mean any daemon army. "Perfect storm" is when Arkhan kills a 40-man unit with Curse of Years. This is just... Kroak verses daemons, and way more damage on top of that. So I reiterate; it shouldn't be possible, at all, ever.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 06:10:15
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Kanluwen wrote:
Slaanesh Daemons army. 5 casts with D6 per unit being targeted.
It's a bit of a joke to be getting upset about this particular thing when it really does require a perfect storm of circumstances.
You mean any daemon army.
Figured I didn't have to specify again since I specified earlier in the thread about Kroak doing double damage to Daemons, but I guess I should have specified again?
"Perfect storm" is when Arkhan kills a 40-man unit with Curse of Years. This is just... Kroak verses daemons, and way more damage on top of that. So I reiterate; it shouldn't be possible, at all, ever.
This is Kroak, on a Balewind Vortex, with multiple units of Daemons around him.
If you rolled 3 6s for the range, given where Kroak is there and you add the extra 6 inches for the Balewind--that's 42 inches of D6 mortal wounds per unit. Looked like Slaanesh guy is running MSU so that's more Mortal Wounds being added in. Without knowing the size of the table and exact distances from that picture, it leaves some of it open to interpretation as to what is or isn't in range. Given that for whatever reason Kroak isn't actually sitting centered on the Vortex, he's squeaking maybe an extra inch out of things. And hell--he's parked next to Arcane terrain too meaning +1 to his castings/unbindings and the other player doesn't seem to have a wizard in range to prevent these spells from going off.
For those curious as to the context, this is the photo that was provided by the person posting about it:
So yeah, he's putting out a lot of mortal wounds against Daemons. It's a spell that hits every unit within 3D6 inches of him. I'd be interested to know exactly how many units were in range of Kroak at the time and how many wounds the average one was taking. Because a lot of this seemingly can be laid at the feet of the Slaanesh player---if they ran MSU, they get burned by this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 07:23:58
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Regular Dakkanaut
Sweden
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Kanluwen wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote:No model should ever be doing that many mortal wounds in a whole game, let alone one turn. Period. It doesn't matter who was playing it, why they were doing it, what the scenario was, what he was fighting against, or anything else. One model Should. Not. Deal. That. Many. Mortals.
On the contrary, it absolutely does matter the how and the why.
Purportedly from the opponent himself, the guy blew all 5 spells from Kroak(remember, he's on a Balewind Vortex) casting "Celestial Deliverance" repeatedly. He used Foresight in order to have rerolls for if it went bad.
That's 5 chances for every unit in 3D6+6 inches of Kroak to potentially take D6 wounds, with him having rerolls on hand to get things really shaking.
I don't care. It shouldn't be possible.
I'm fine with it being possible, assuming there's some kind of setup and possibility to interrupt. I've played Magic TCG enough to learn that combos are really nasty, but there's almost always some point where you can break the sequence.
The real question is, how do you implement something similar in AoS?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 08:26:00
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Executing Exarch
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Just limit him to casting his spell once per phase again by errataing his warscroll. He’s good enough without it! Although I doubt they will do that, they always seem to fix these things in roundabout ways.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 08:56:36
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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Mangod wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote: Kanluwen wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote:No model should ever be doing that many mortal wounds in a whole game, let alone one turn. Period. It doesn't matter who was playing it, why they were doing it, what the scenario was, what he was fighting against, or anything else. One model Should. Not. Deal. That. Many. Mortals.
On the contrary, it absolutely does matter the how and the why.
Purportedly from the opponent himself, the guy blew all 5 spells from Kroak(remember, he's on a Balewind Vortex) casting "Celestial Deliverance" repeatedly. He used Foresight in order to have rerolls for if it went bad.
That's 5 chances for every unit in 3D6+6 inches of Kroak to potentially take D6 wounds, with him having rerolls on hand to get things really shaking.
I don't care. It shouldn't be possible.
I'm fine with it being possible, assuming there's some kind of setup and possibility to interrupt. I've played Magic TCG enough to learn that combos are really nasty, but there's almost always some point where you can break the sequence.
The real question is, how do you implement something similar in AoS?
The question then becomes do you want something similar in AoS?
Powerful magic is great, but I think the design of Warhammer doesn't lend itself well nor favourably to the kind of power-combos that MTG has. MTG is a very fast game (typically) compared to Warhammer so having a spell combo that ends the match in one or two turns is fine. Because the player shuffle their decks and play again in a few moments.
In Warhammer if you have super spell combos that can wipe huge chunks of units from the table in one go you can't just shake your opponents hand and go "good game lets go again, best of three?". It's just not practical for many situations, plus its very unfun to have more time spent in setup and deployment than in actual gaming.
Another aspect is if you start to introduce superspell systems you start to heavily weight the game toward being caster heavy. Casters become mandatory and the default power of the army instead of desirable and one cog of many.
Personally I think wargames work best when there's a bit more "tarpit" in the game and unit design so that fights last a bit longer; that you get that feeling of engage, moral break, retreat, flank attack, manoeuvring etc....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 10:06:03
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Charging Dragon Prince
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Overread wrote:Personally I think wargames work best when there's a bit more "tarpit" in the game and unit design so that fights last a bit longer; that you get that feeling of engage, moral break, retreat, flank attack, manoeuvring etc....
I'll just chime to this thought. I simply dislike when everything just gets removed or there's no counter play to the stacked up abilities, plus I also dislike to see those few models I've painted to be sent back to the carrying case.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 11:53:31
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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My issue is that Seraphon seem so obviously ahead of the curve in terms of overall power level compared to everyone else, yet they didn't really get any significant points hikes on some already top-tier units they had, and they got reductions elsewhere. Their summoning is also the best in the game if you build around it. Kroak being able to spam his spell again is just the cherry on top.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 12:26:10
Subject: Re:New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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I’m sad that these issues with the game still exist. They went crazy with the mortal wound spam.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 12:41:22
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Lens of Refraction (Hysh Artefact from Malign Sorcery) may very well become an auto-include for certain factions at tournaments. It reduces the number of mortal wounds inflicted by spells cast by enemy Wizards by D3 for units within 6" of the wielder. Chuck it on a durable hero on a big base and go from there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 12:44:58
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Caederes wrote:My issue is that Seraphon seem so obviously ahead of the curve in terms of overall power level compared to everyone else, yet they didn't really get any significant points hikes on some already top-tier units they had, and they got reductions elsewhere. Their summoning is also the best in the game if you build around it. Kroak being able to spam his spell again is just the cherry on top.
If he's spamming his spell, he's not summoning. If he's spamming his spell, it's going from a 7 to an 8 to a 9 for three castings and then capping at that 9+ to cast. I didn't see any in the picture but it would be staggeringly surprising if he had no Astrolith Bearers hunkered down for Celestial Conduit, granting another +1 to castings(he's parked next to an Arcane terrain feature) and an additional 8" to the range of the spell. Meaning my initial calculations of 3D6+6 need to be revised to 3D6+14--anywhere from 17" for 3 1s to 32" for 3 6s. Honestly the only way I can think of him getting that 105 MWs is everything in that photo being in range and there having been other units of 5 in range as well but having been removed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/08 12:48:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 12:46:46
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kanluwen wrote:Caederes wrote:My issue is that Seraphon seem so obviously ahead of the curve in terms of overall power level compared to everyone else, yet they didn't really get any significant points hikes on some already top-tier units they had, and they got reductions elsewhere. Their summoning is also the best in the game if you build around it. Kroak being able to spam his spell again is just the cherry on top.
If he's spamming his spell, he's not summoning.
If he's spamming his spell, it's going from a 7 to an 8 to a 9 for three castings and then capping at that 9+ to cast.
I didn't see any in the picture but it would be staggeringly surprising if he had no Astrolith Bearers hunkered down for Celestial Conduit, granting another +1 to castings(he's parked next to an Arcane terrain feature) and an additional 8" to the range of the spell. Meaning my initial calculations of 3D6+6 need to be revised to 3D6+14--anywhere from 17" base to 32".
Who said Kroak was the one summoning?
As I said, Kroak being able to spam his spell is "just the cherry on top", i.e. not the biggest deal of everything else Seraphon can do.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/08 12:47:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 13:07:20
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Caederes wrote: Kanluwen wrote:Caederes wrote:My issue is that Seraphon seem so obviously ahead of the curve in terms of overall power level compared to everyone else, yet they didn't really get any significant points hikes on some already top-tier units they had, and they got reductions elsewhere. Their summoning is also the best in the game if you build around it. Kroak being able to spam his spell again is just the cherry on top.
If he's spamming his spell, he's not summoning.
If he's spamming his spell, it's going from a 7 to an 8 to a 9 for three castings and then capping at that 9+ to cast.
I didn't see any in the picture but it would be staggeringly surprising if he had no Astrolith Bearers hunkered down for Celestial Conduit, granting another +1 to castings(he's parked next to an Arcane terrain feature) and an additional 8" to the range of the spell. Meaning my initial calculations of 3D6+6 need to be revised to 3D6+14--anywhere from 17" base to 32".
Who said Kroak was the one summoning?
As I said, Kroak being able to spam his spell is "just the cherry on top", i.e. not the biggest deal of everything else Seraphon can do.
Honestly, the biggest reason to take Kroak is his 4 spells--meaning 4 times(5 if you do a Balewind Vortex) you can instead do Celestial Conjuration, granting you a whopping 13 points at the end of your Hero Phase. That's before an Astrolith Bearer(+D3) even gets factored in.
I cannot help but stress that we're not seeing the full picture here, we don't know if there's a Slann Starmaster who was parked in the back who had rolled up "The Sage's Staff" for Celestial Configuration(+1 to casting rolls), we don't know if there's an Astrolith Bearer further back parked down with his Astrolith for another +1 to casting--meaning +3 to casts for spells that require a 7, 8, or 9. We don't know if he burned Kroak's command ability to ensure he got 3 rerolls to play around with. We don't know how big the distance ended up being for his casts, we don't know how many units there were in that range, etc.
Only thing we know is D6 wounds and a potential range band of 9 to 24 or 17 to 32--and with the potential for the Slann command trait of an additional 6 inches to range on casting rolls of 10+.
I apologize for the messiness with regards to the range brackets changing. It's legitimately not an attempt to shift goalposts, I've just been doing some research after this surfaced. It's scary for Chaos Daemon players for sure--but for anyone else, that 105 MWs would have been sliced in half to 52.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 13:14:59
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Clousseau
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What this type of thing is really good for is running people out of the game and destroying gaming groups.
If you love combo gaming and obliterating your enemy with combos then this will be something you love, but for the rest of us, this kneecaps AOS trying to grow past the people that like magic the gathering with models.
If a lizard player really wants to have no game, he can just show up with this against a chaos player and elect to win by default.
Thats awful game design in my opinion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 13:16:50
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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auticus wrote:What this type of thing is really good for is running people out of the game and destroying gaming groups.
If you love combo gaming and obliterating your enemy with combos then this will be something you love, but for the rest of us, this kneecaps AOS trying to grow past the people that like magic the gathering with models.
If a lizard player really wants to have no game, he can just show up with this against a chaos player and elect to win by default.
Thats awful game design in my opinion.
By your argument, someone with a missile heavy army can just 'elect to win by default' against a melee army.
But we know that's not how things work. This was someone who lucked out on their side of things. It happens.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 13:20:37
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly, the biggest reason to take Kroak is his 4 spells--meaning 4 times(5 if you do a Balewind Vortex) you can instead do Celestial Conjuration, granting you a whopping 13 points at the end of your Hero Phase. That's before an Astrolith Bearer(+D3) even gets factored in.
I cannot help but stress that we're not seeing the full picture here, we don't know if there's a Slann Starmaster who was parked in the back who had rolled up "The Sage's Staff" for Celestial Configuration(+1 to casting rolls), we don't know if there's an Astrolith Bearer further back parked down with his Astrolith for another +1 to casting--meaning +3 to casts for spells that require a 7, 8, or 9. We don't know if he burned Kroak's command ability to ensure he got 3 rerolls to play around with. We don't know how big the distance ended up being for his casts, we don't know how many units there were in that range, etc.
Only thing we know is D6 wounds and a potential range band of 9 to 24 or 17 to 32--and with the potential for the Slann command trait of an additional 6 inches to range on casting rolls of 10+.
I apologize for the messiness with regards to the range brackets changing. It's legitimately not an attempt to shift goalposts, I've just been doing some research after this surfaced. It's scary for Chaos Daemon players for sure--but for anyone else, that 105 MWs would have been sliced in half to 52.
Not that I made it obvious but I was being facetious. I agree that he's best served summoning. Good information for those in this thread who are more worried about the mortal wound spam though, it's not a big deal for my armies personally as I either can absorb them or will be using the Lens of Refraction anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 13:44:41
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Caederes wrote: Not that I made it obvious but I was being facetious. I agree that he's best served summoning. Good information for those in this thread who are more worried about the mortal wound spam though, it's not a big deal for my armies personally as I either can absorb them or will be using the Lens of Refraction anyway.
I apologize for not catching the facetiousness. I'm just not a fan of the kneejerk nonsense we're seeing surrounding this. It looks like there was no Slaanesh Wizard to unbind or possibly it was being outranged by a series of factors allowing for Kroak to be outside of the 30" unbind range. I'm totally understanding that yes, this mortal wound output on its face seems outrageous. But it's D3 Mortal Wounds per unit within 3D6" range, with the number going to D6 instead if you're fighting Daemons. Kroak can cast it four times, with it going from a 7+ to an 8+ and capping at a 9+ to cast. So let's recap the potential modifiers: Seraphon have a Battle Trait where they get an additional 6" to the range of the spell if the casting roll for the Slann Wizard is a 10+. A Balewind Vortex grants another 6" to the casting range, plus an additional chance to cast a spell. Arcane terrain(which Kroak is sitting next to) grants another +1 to cast. An Astrolith Bearer grants +1 to cast and 8" to the range. A Slann Starmaster can, potentially, roll up "The Sage's Staff" constellation before the game--meaning another +1 to cast. Kroak also has a Command Ability allowing for him to roll 3 dice and for each 4+, he gets to reroll any single dice before his next Hero Phase. That means a potential 5 chances to cast a spell with, with 2D6+3 for each cast. That means 5 chances for a spell that has 3D6"+14" guaranteed with a potential 6" if you rolled a 10+ for the casts. That means 5 chances for every enemy unit from a minimum of 17 to 23 inches and a maximum of 32 to 38 inches being affected by a spell that deals D3 Mortal Wounds, bumped up to D6 Mortal Wounds if playing against Chaos Daemons. That is a massive footprint to be considering for a spell that deals those Mortal Wounds to units, meaning an army built up of MSU is going to be boosting that amount of Mortal Wounds being generated significantly. Edit Note: Yes, I'm aware I factored in a few hypothetical variables here. Not everything can be observed from one photo. Caederes wrote:The Lens of Refraction (Hysh Artefact from Malign Sorcery) may very well become an auto-include for certain factions at tournaments. It reduces the number of mortal wounds inflicted by spells cast by enemy Wizards by D3 for units within 6" of the wielder. Chuck it on a durable hero on a big base and go from there.
I forgot to reply to this earlier--one of the things I'm exceedingly disappointed in them removing from the early days of AOS is the various battle standards. Wanderers had a great counter to this kind of nonsense in the form of the Banner of Athel Loren, which when planted granted an umbrella of potentially denying Mortal Wounds from spells.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/08 13:54:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 13:51:33
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Overread wrote: Mangod wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote: Kanluwen wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote:No model should ever be doing that many mortal wounds in a whole game, let alone one turn. Period. It doesn't matter who was playing it, why they were doing it, what the scenario was, what he was fighting against, or anything else. One model Should. Not. Deal. That. Many. Mortals.
On the contrary, it absolutely does matter the how and the why.
Purportedly from the opponent himself, the guy blew all 5 spells from Kroak(remember, he's on a Balewind Vortex) casting "Celestial Deliverance" repeatedly. He used Foresight in order to have rerolls for if it went bad.
That's 5 chances for every unit in 3D6+6 inches of Kroak to potentially take D6 wounds, with him having rerolls on hand to get things really shaking.
I don't care. It shouldn't be possible.
I'm fine with it being possible, assuming there's some kind of setup and possibility to interrupt. I've played Magic TCG enough to learn that combos are really nasty, but there's almost always some point where you can break the sequence.
The real question is, how do you implement something similar in AoS?
The question then becomes do you want something similar in AoS?
Powerful magic is great, but I think the design of Warhammer doesn't lend itself well nor favourably to the kind of power-combos that MTG has. MTG is a very fast game (typically) compared to Warhammer so having a spell combo that ends the match in one or two turns is fine. Because the player shuffle their decks and play again in a few moments.
In Warhammer if you have super spell combos that can wipe huge chunks of units from the table in one go you can't just shake your opponents hand and go "good game lets go again, best of three?". It's just not practical for many situations, plus its very unfun to have more time spent in setup and deployment than in actual gaming.
Another aspect is if you start to introduce superspell systems you start to heavily weight the game toward being caster heavy. Casters become mandatory and the default power of the army instead of desirable and one cog of many.
Personally I think wargames work best when there's a bit more "tarpit" in the game and unit design so that fights last a bit longer; that you get that feeling of engage, moral break, retreat, flank attack, manoeuvring etc....
10/10
I would exalt this post again
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 14:24:17
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Clousseau
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Kanluwen wrote:auticus wrote:What this type of thing is really good for is running people out of the game and destroying gaming groups.
If you love combo gaming and obliterating your enemy with combos then this will be something you love, but for the rest of us, this kneecaps AOS trying to grow past the people that like magic the gathering with models.
If a lizard player really wants to have no game, he can just show up with this against a chaos player and elect to win by default.
Thats awful game design in my opinion.
By your argument, someone with a missile heavy army can just 'elect to win by default' against a melee army.
But we know that's not how things work. This was someone who lucked out on their side of things. It happens.
Except that I've never said a missile heavy army can elect to win by default against a melee army. The only missile army that could elect to win that way was kunnin rukk before the changes were put in place in 2017. There is a gigantic world of difference from saying one has a sizeable advantage compared with one can win by default.
One model should never be dealing 105 points of damage in a single magic phase. That is flat out bad game experience. That is something that needed caught in playtesting and toned down. The easy answer is stop letting that model recast the same spell over and over again. There was a reason they had the rule of one up until now, and now they've decided its ok to pitch that out the window.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/08 14:25:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 14:44:05
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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auticus wrote: Kanluwen wrote:auticus wrote:What this type of thing is really good for is running people out of the game and destroying gaming groups.
If you love combo gaming and obliterating your enemy with combos then this will be something you love, but for the rest of us, this kneecaps AOS trying to grow past the people that like magic the gathering with models.
If a lizard player really wants to have no game, he can just show up with this against a chaos player and elect to win by default.
Thats awful game design in my opinion.
By your argument, someone with a missile heavy army can just 'elect to win by default' against a melee army.
But we know that's not how things work. This was someone who lucked out on their side of things. It happens.
Except that I've never said a missile heavy army can elect to win by default against a melee army. The only missile army that could elect to win that way was kunnin rukk before the changes were put in place in 2017. There is a gigantic world of difference from saying one has a sizeable advantage compared with one can win by default.
You've certainly implied that it was the case over the past few months.
One model should never be dealing 105 points of damage in a single magic phase. That is flat out bad game experience. That is something that needed caught in playtesting and toned down. The easy answer is stop letting that model recast the same spell over and over again. There was a reason they had the rule of one up until now, and now they've decided its ok to pitch that out the window.
The easy answer is to provide more abilities to mitigate spells. Unbind isn't and never will be enough.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 14:59:24
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Clousseau
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he easy answer is to provide more abilities to mitigate spells. Unbind isn't and never will be enough.
That may be true. The end result is GW needs to look at extreme things like this and curb it pronto. If its adding more ways to mitigate spells, then so be it.
Lord Kroak running around tea bagging chaos armies is not good for the game's health.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 15:05:56
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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He's not "teabagging Chaos armies".
He's doing this ONLY to Chaos Daemons units. That army didn't seem to have any non-Daemon stuff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 15:07:34
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Actually, theres some cases where something being OP is only a problem of not having the right tools in other armies. In this specific case I don't think the problem can be fixed with that. If you just let this be as it is, and give "tools" to fight it, then you end up with an arms race where letality only scales up, and if your opponent just happens to not have that tool, then is an auto win.
Something similar happened with Hearthstone, where a Druid deck was absolutely dominating the meta with a specific 1-cost spell, and they introduced a neutral card of 6 mana that destroyed all 1-cost cards in both decks. But the card designed to counter that specific deck wasn't enough, and they ended up nerfing the original deck.
Kanluwen wrote:He's not "teabagging Chaos armies".
He's doing this ONLY to Chaos Daemons units. That army didn't seem to have any non-Daemon stuff.
Doesn't matter how you look at it, it isn't cool to have a model be an "auto-win" (Or so powerfull agaisnt them that makes a victory nearly impossible) button agaisnt Chaos demon Armies unles those armies play in a very specific way both in the table and the list-building phase.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/08 15:12:39
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 15:32:07
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Clousseau
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Having had lord kroak literally tea bag my entire nurgle army in one turn recently, and my army is a mix of blight kings and nurgle demons, he's able to pretty much have his way with a lot of chaos configurations.
I'm not going to get into pedantics and nit picking. He is essentially an "I win" button against a good chunk of chaos builds.
He is the opposite of what you want in a game to encourage community building and growth.
The only people that I know of that don't mind this type of thing are people that enjoy the magic the gathering aspects of the game and expect you to buy new models every X months to keep up with the meta. For the rest, this is repulsive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/08 15:33:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/08 18:58:00
Subject: New AOS Edition comes out in June
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions
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Yeah I'm not sure "its only that bad vs daemons" holds any weight when its still ~52 mortal wounds from one model if that exact same scenario happened vs any other army.
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5,000 Raven Guard
3,000 Night Lords |
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