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 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No model should ever be doing that many mortal wounds in a whole game, let alone one turn. Period. It doesn't matter who was playing it, why they were doing it, what the scenario was, what he was fighting against, or anything else. One model Should. Not. Deal. That. Many. Mortals.

On the contrary, it absolutely does matter the how and the why.

Purportedly from the opponent himself, the guy blew all 5 spells from Kroak(remember, he's on a Balewind Vortex) casting "Celestial Deliverance" repeatedly. He used Foresight in order to have rerolls for if it went bad.
That's 5 chances for every unit in 3D6+6 inches of Kroak to potentially take D6 wounds, with him having rerolls on hand to get things really shaking.

He also gets +8" added to the range because of an Astrolith bearer, which means he's also casting at +2 with it and the vortex. That means an average of 24.5" radius on the spell, doing on average 6 mortal wounds per turn on non-daemon units, and 10.5 to any daemons in range. That's insane by any measure.

 Fafnir wrote:

He also gets +8" added to the range because of an Astrolith bearer, which means he's also casting at +2 with it and the vortex. That means an average of 24.5" radius on the spell, doing on average 6 mortal wounds per turn on non-daemon units, and 10.5 to any daemons in range. That's insane by any measure.

If you read further past that post, you'd notice that I actually showed all the potential range modifiers. But yeah, thanks.

It's "insane" but it's exceedingly situational. Yeah yeah yeah, it could still be "52 mortal wounds against anyone not Daemons!"--but it's still having to be built up to get that range modifier.

You plant the Astrolith by Kroak, Kroak casts Balewind Vortex. He's got 4 casts left to do his job on turn one. That's not much of a build up. You either deploy aggressively and start nuking from the first round, or you deploy defensively and dare your opponent to come within 32". That hardly sounds 'exceedingly situational.' Sure, you can't move after the Vortex is down, but who cares, you can cover the majority of the area of the board with it. 650 points for the setup, and then in a 2k game you've got more than enough to entrench that position or cover objectives.

 Fafnir wrote:
You plant the Astrolith by Kroak, Kroak casts Balewind Vortex. He's got 4 casts left to do his job on turn one. That's not much of a build up. You either deploy aggressively and start nuking from the first round, or you deploy defensively and dare your opponent to come within 32". That hardly sounds 'exceedingly situational.' Sure, you can't move after the Vortex is down, but who cares, you can cover the majority of the area of the board with it.

Astrolith can plant anywhere far as I can tell and grant the Celestial Conduit benefit.
With that said, the reason I factored in a lot of different things is that the spell does get progressively harder to cast. There's some support-y stuff that can be done to make it work more reliably.

It's also worth noting that several parts of my "setup" aren't anything more than Battle Traits(the extra 6" if the roll is a 10+) for the Slann or a benefit from having a Slann that rolled the + casting sign.
Oh--and the Arcane terrain that he was parked next to.

Hence my statement of there being "exceedingly situational factors" that might have been in play to force this to work. Like I said earlier, the dude seemed to have an axe to grind and wanted to make it very clear that he did this specifically to showcase "how broken" AOS2.0 is and Kroak in particular. It reminds me of the people who fielded multiple named characters before we got Matched Play and named restrictions.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I don't care. It shouldn't be possible.

Slaanesh Daemons army. 5 casts with D6 per unit being targeted.

It's a bit of a joke to be getting upset about this particular thing when it really does require a perfect storm of circumstances.

You mean any daemon army.

Figured I didn't have to specify again since I specified earlier in the thread about Kroak doing double damage to Daemons, but I guess I should have specified again?

"Perfect storm" is when Arkhan kills a 40-man unit with Curse of Years. This is just... Kroak verses daemons, and way more damage on top of that. So I reiterate; it shouldn't be possible, at all, ever.

This is Kroak, on a Balewind Vortex, with multiple units of Daemons around him.

If you rolled 3 6s for the range, given where Kroak is there and you add the extra 6 inches for the Balewind--that's 42 inches of D6 mortal wounds per unit. Looked like Slaanesh guy is running MSU so that's more Mortal Wounds being added in. Without knowing the size of the table and exact distances from that picture, it leaves some of it open to interpretation as to what is or isn't in range. Given that for whatever reason Kroak isn't actually sitting centered on the Vortex, he's squeaking maybe an extra inch out of things. And hell--he's parked next to Arcane terrain too meaning +1 to his castings/unbindings and the other player doesn't seem to have a wizard in range to prevent these spells from going off.

For those curious as to the context, this is the photo that was provided by the person posting about it:

Spoiler:

So yeah, he's putting out a lot of mortal wounds against Daemons. It's a spell that hits every unit within 3D6 inches of him. I'd be interested to know exactly how many units were in range of Kroak at the time and how many wounds the average one was taking. Because a lot of this seemingly can be laid at the feet of the Slaanesh player---if they ran MSU, they get burned by this.

My point is any army composed of predominantly daemons can get hit with this. It isn't a perfect storm. We could even assume the opposing army isn't daemons and he does ~60 mortals instead, it doesn't at all change the problem. For range he has +6" from vortex, +8" from astrolith bearer (don't even try to argue that every seraphon list doesn't have one), let's go with an average of 10" from dice, off a 4" base--that's a circle 52" in diameter in a board that is only 72" long. Range is not a problem. The only real element of chance here is actually casting it three times after vortex, with +2 to cast (vortex + astrolith) that's a 25% chance of getting it off all three times (after summoning the vortex with +1). This involves no re-rolls or other bonuses and is essentially a 25% chance of winning the game automatically. The only realistic option the opponent has to counter is dispelling needing a minimum of 8+ since that 25% includes all the spells going off on at least a 7. And that's already forcing opponents to bring wizards in order to have a chance at avoiding an automatic loss.

So let me reiterate, even if it were a perfect storm it would not be OK. But it is not a perfect storm, it's not even difficult. It's a 25% chance of winning in a turn because you brought kroak, a vortex, and an astrolith bearer. Further it's so much worse than that because even just getting the spell off twice would be devastating enough, and he can continue to do this in subsequent turns. I don't know why you are so tremendously resistant to admitting that there is a balance issue here.

And regardless of what either of us think, it is bad for the health of AoS that it exists. People looking to get/get back into AoS don't see the context; they see 100+ mortals off a single model and think "I don't care how hard it is to get that off, I don't want to play AoS if that's possible." I see it happen all the time with MtG; I can't count the number of people I've met who say 'I just want to play, not have to worry about stopping insta-win combos' and that is a game where 'comboing out' for a win is a legitimate and intended component of the meta.

 Fafnir wrote:
You plant the Astrolith by Kroak, Kroak casts Balewind Vortex. He's got 4 casts left to do his job on turn one. That's not much of a build up. You either deploy aggressively and start nuking from the first round, or you deploy defensively and dare your opponent to come within 32". That hardly sounds 'exceedingly situational.' Sure, you can't move after the Vortex is down, but who cares, you can cover the majority of the area of the board with it. 650 points for the setup, and then in a 2k game you've got more than enough to entrench that position or cover objectives.

And if he does not come closer you just spam Summoning instead

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
My point is any army composed of predominantly daemons can get hit with this. It isn't a perfect storm. We could even assume the opposing army isn't daemons and he does ~60 mortals instead, it doesn't at all change the problem. For range he has +6" from vortex, +8" from astrolith bearer (don't even try to argue that every seraphon list doesn't have one)

Never tried to. Didn't know initially about it, hence why I made the specific statement about not purposely trying to move goalposts later on. I've been, y'know, actually doing research here figuring out what's what. As I've been trying to dig up exactly what happened here(which is difficult because there's a lot of hyperbole floating around surrounding the events in question), I've amended some things. That's why I've posted as much as I have on this particular topic. I've heard at least a couple of different accounts where yes, he did have a Slann Starmaster that rolled up the spellcaster buffing constellation and he got a 10+ for his roll, meaning the Slann Battle Trait would come into play.

let's go with an average of 10" from dice, off a 4" base--that's a circle 52" in diameter in a board that is only 72" long. Range is not a problem. The only real element of chance here is actually casting it three times after vortex, with +2 to cast (vortex + astrolith) that's a 25% chance of getting it off all three times (after summoning the vortex with +1). This involves no re-rolls or other bonuses and is essentially a 25% chance of winning the game automatically. The only realistic option the opponent has to counter is dispelling needing a minimum of 8+ since that 25% includes all the spells going off on at least a 7. And that's already forcing opponents to bring wizards in order to have a chance at avoiding an automatic loss.

You shouldn't be keeping the chance to get it off all three times the same. The spell gets a point higher each time.

So let me reiterate, even if it were a perfect storm it would not be OK. But it is not a perfect storm, it's not even difficult. It's a 25% chance of winning in a turn because you brought kroak, a vortex, and an astrolith bearer. Further it's so much worse than that because even just getting the spell off twice would be devastating enough, and he can continue to do this in subsequent turns. I don't know why you are so tremendously resistant to admitting that there is a balance issue here.

Because of the circumstances surrounding the event itself. I can't find out whether or not this was during a team tournament portion, which is apparently how a guy got a Moonclan unit Champion dealing an obscene amount of wounds.

I get that there's an issue--I just don't see it as being a gamebreaking issue right off the bat. It's a tournament. I expect players to be tools there.

And regardless of what either of us think, it is bad for the health of AoS that it exists. People looking to get/get back into AoS don't see the context; they see 100+ mortals off a single model and think "I don't care how hard it is to get that off, I don't want to play AoS if that's possible." I see it happen all the time with MtG; I can't count the number of people I've met who say 'I just want to play, not have to worry about stopping insta-win combos' and that is a game where 'comboing out' for a win is a legitimate and intended component of the meta.

And that's fine and dandy, but education can definitely help. You don't have to talk down to them, you don't have to make it a situation of "git gud scrub" or anything like that. You just showcase how to potentially counter this--and while you might argue that "it's uncounterable!", I'm sure someone somewhere has already come up with a way to do so.

It's a tournament. I expect players to be tools there.

Except now this combo is about to be unleashed in games outside of the tournament hall too.

Which is going to cripple some AOS community building.

And even if it has a counter (I cannot at the moment think of one other than not playing), you'll have to build specifically for that. Which is also poison for building a community.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
My point is any army composed of predominantly daemons can get hit with this. It isn't a perfect storm. We could even assume the opposing army isn't daemons and he does ~60 mortals instead, it doesn't at all change the problem. For range he has +6" from vortex, +8" from astrolith bearer (don't even try to argue that every seraphon list doesn't have one)

Never tried to. Didn't know initially about it, hence why I made the specific statement about not purposely trying to move goalposts later on. I've been, y'know, actually doing research here figuring out what's what. As I've been trying to dig up exactly what happened here(which is difficult because there's a lot of hyperbole floating around surrounding the events in question), I've amended some things. That's why I've posted as much as I have on this particular topic. I've heard at least a couple of different accounts where yes, he did have a Slann Starmaster that rolled up the spellcaster buffing constellation and he got a 10+ for his roll, meaning the Slann Battle Trait would come into play.

I misinterpreted you on the astrolith--my bad. My point is that the actual context is largely irrelevant (it could be considered an example) because we can see from some basic numbers that it is very possible to achieve a game-breaking number of mortal wounds.

let's go with an average of 10" from dice, off a 4" base--that's a circle 52" in diameter in a board that is only 72" long. Range is not a problem. The only real element of chance here is actually casting it three times after vortex, with +2 to cast (vortex + astrolith) that's a 25% chance of getting it off all three times (after summoning the vortex with +1). This involves no re-rolls or other bonuses and is essentially a 25% chance of winning the game automatically. The only realistic option the opponent has to counter is dispelling needing a minimum of 8+ since that 25% includes all the spells going off on at least a 7. And that's already forcing opponents to bring wizards in order to have a chance at avoiding an automatic loss.

You shouldn't be keeping the chance to get it off all three times the same. The spell gets a point higher each time.

I did factor that in, I was just underlining that dispelling isn't a reliable counter since the absolute minimum one would need to stop even the lowest-cast spells is an 8+; likely higher.

So let me reiterate, even if it were a perfect storm it would not be OK. But it is not a perfect storm, it's not even difficult. It's a 25% chance of winning in a turn because you brought kroak, a vortex, and an astrolith bearer. Further it's so much worse than that because even just getting the spell off twice would be devastating enough, and he can continue to do this in subsequent turns. I don't know why you are so tremendously resistant to admitting that there is a balance issue here.

Because of the circumstances surrounding the event itself. I can't find out whether or not this was during a team tournament portion, which is apparently how a guy got a Moonclan unit Champion dealing an obscene amount of wounds.

I get that there's an issue--I just don't see it as being a gamebreaking issue right off the bat. It's a tournament. I expect players to be tools there.

And regardless of what either of us think, it is bad for the health of AoS that it exists. People looking to get/get back into AoS don't see the context; they see 100+ mortals off a single model and think "I don't care how hard it is to get that off, I don't want to play AoS if that's possible." I see it happen all the time with MtG; I can't count the number of people I've met who say 'I just want to play, not have to worry about stopping insta-win combos' and that is a game where 'comboing out' for a win is a legitimate and intended component of the meta.

And that's fine and dandy, but education can definitely help. You don't have to talk down to them, you don't have to make it a situation of "git gud scrub" or anything like that. You just showcase how to potentially counter this--and while you might argue that "it's uncounterable!", I'm sure someone somewhere has already come up with a way to do so.

People don't seek that advice--they just don't play. Also the only counter widely available is unreliable at best and ineffective when taken in context of multiple turns. Certain armies could manage niche counters but that isn't a solution. This is an extremely combo that takes minimal skill to pull off, if any. Usually cheese builds at least require that one knows how to play them. And/or 1200+ points to function at full capacity.

Has any brought this to the attention of the FAQ team? Or are we too busy screaming "GW bad!" into the void? This is the kind of thing they want to know about so it can be fixed.

Afaik no one is saying 'GW bad!' but rather discussing this specific issue. Certainly I find the new GHB very good and while the problems are rather severe there are much less of them than previous editions.

I haven't sent it to them yet because I am waiting for the FAQ/errata they do two weeks after release. After that I'll send one email with all my (remaining) questions/issues in it. If this isn't addressed it will be in there.

The two week FAQ/Errata are made based on customer feedback on issues like this. All you're doing right now is complaining about an issue on a message board. Instead, try pointing out issues like this to the people who actually have the power to fix them. Don't count on others to do so.

I'm pretty sure the post that started this whole discussion has done a hundred times more than one email; all you're doing is being a jerk on a message board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be extra specific; I feel FB feedback is better for short term issues and I want to have additional play time myself before submitting opinions rather than posting knee-jerk reactions as you apparently would. So perhaps consider applying thought to the matter rather than making superficial criticisms that do nothing to help the game. Of course, as you said, I don't count on other players to do that otherwise I wouldn't provide reasoned feedback at all; unfortunately I am all too aware that the game hosts many players with your attitude that leads to the very balance issues we often discuss on this board. Anything more than a cursory skim read would reveal that, but you'd actually have to give a dam for that.

You know what does nothing for the game? Arguing on DakkaDakka. GW has specifically said that they want players to submit feedback on issues like this. That's all I'm suggesting. You and auticus constantly arguing with Kan on this forum does nothing but make each other angry.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm pretty sure the post that started this whole discussion has done a hundred times more than one email; all you're doing is being a jerk on a message board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be extra specific; I feel FB feedback is better for short term issues and I want to have additional play time myself before submitting opinions rather than posting knee-jerk reactions as you apparently would. So perhaps consider applying thought to the matter rather than making superficial criticisms that do nothing to help the game.

But have YOU brought it to their attention? That's all he's saying. If you think it's a problem but don't supply feedback (which we have ample proof they listen to now) then you really aren't helping the game. This isn't one of those things that needs extensive playtesting to see if messed up. I think it's one of the things that did get missed because kroak wasn't lighting up the table the last 6 months (or longer). So submit feedback. You're not limited on the number of times you can give feedback man. So give the obvious feedback that by the numbers is crap up front and playtest the iffy stuff and give it.

Also, for someone who is as thin skinned as you appear to be you're certainly quick to go to name calling and rudeness. Take a breath, submit a facebook reply or email to the dev team on things you see that are instantly bad (kroak) now and things that may be terrible (seraphon summoning) after you've played it a bit

I honestly think they just completely forgot the rules of 1. And older books that's warscrolls didn't change (like Seraphon) benefit massively.

 EnTyme wrote:
You know what does nothing for the game? Arguing on DakkaDakka. GW has specifically said that they want players to submit feedback on issues like this. That's all I'm suggesting. You and auticus constantly arguing with Kan on this forum does nothing but make each other angry.

First off, I see that I wrote a very angry post. That was unproductive at best and I apologize. For future reference, if I submit something that seems very... animated it's probably better to take it with a grain of salt. I can have uncontrolled mood swings at times due to mental illness.

At any rate, I get a lot out of these discussions beyond what it may seem. There's a lot of points brought up that I disagree with, and criticisms of my own points that I disagree with, but there's more to it than that. Having one's position criticized is the best way to improve that position, and I don't think it's wrong to want to wait a few weeks to get a dozen games in before sending my opinion to GW. Maybe Kroak is not an isolated issue but part of a larger one (he is. for example, part of a larger 'mortal wound meta' that is not addressed as simply). Maybe there is a counter I haven't realized exists. I understand that there will be loads of people offering quick feedback on issues so what I endeavor to do is take time to flesh out my feedback and provide a different perspective than one GW no doubt already has an abundance of. Considering feedback before submitting it is something to be encouraged--not the opposite. Just because I haven't submitted feedback on this specific point at this specific moment does not mean I will not do so in the near future, or have never done so in the past.

I use the board to discuss. Thats the point of the board. There are times when someone, maybe even if they are arguing angrily, has shown me that there is a legit counter or something. I'd never get that if all I did was submit a complaint to GW.

GW is aware of Lord Kroak's ability to be busted. The twitter in question has the AOS lead developer tagged right on it, he is 100% aware. What he does with that info is anyone's guess. He may feel that Kroak's ability to slam down 105 mortal wounds on chaos is working as intended. They never really give insight into their thinking so who knows.

Much like TGA rules forbidding any criticism of the game, and facebook groups flat out banning people that aren't just holding hands and singing in harmony with everyone, where are you supposed to go to discuss things anymore when the rules of engagement are "thou shalt not argue or criticize?"

Discussion forums will bring about debates which will bring about arguments. Thats the nature of the beast.

I don't think anyone was saying "GW Bad". We have an instance of something in their game though that is a community wrecker and it was made into a discussion.

Also GW does review this discussion board as well. They are just not allowed to post on forums, but they read them fairly regularly (I've been told).

Now the Lord Kroak counter point thats being discussed elsewhere not just here:

* Lord Kroak did 105 mortal wounds to demons and it would only be 52 against other armies so its ok
* Armies need to take things like the lens of refraction which would have made it harder for him to cast
* Armies with mortal wound saves wouldn't have done so bad

These are the things that GW is considering. But in this instance, we're walking the path of you have to build specifically to counter the kroak build and hope he rolls poorly. This I don't agree with. My opinion is very much in the minority though.

Now for my own group locally we have two seraphon players. One, the more casual of the two, has shelved his seraphon because he says they are too easy and he feels bad playing people with them. The other, the more competitive one, brings kroak every time and will continue to do so. There are a few competitive guys willing to play against this so as long as I have competitive people to throw at him, there won't be a problem.

auticus wrote:

Now the Lord Kroak counter point thats being discussed elsewhere not just here:

* Lord Kroak did 105 mortal wounds to demons and it would only be 52 against other armies so its ok
* Armies need to take things like the lens of refraction which would have made it harder for him to cast
* Armies with mortal wound saves wouldn't have done so bad

These are the things that GW is considering. But in this instance, we're walking the path of you have to build specifically to counter the kroak build and hope he rolls poorly. This I don't agree with. My opinion is very much in the minority though.

Lord Kroak did 105 mortal wounds to a Slaanesh Daemon army that ran multiple small units against a spell that targets units in a fairly hefty radius of the caster. Some of the MW numbers could very well have been toned down if the Slaanesh player had been running non-MSU.

Lens of Refraction is a good potential counter, but so would the Trickster's Helm(reroll successful casting rolls for enemy Wizards while within 8" of the bearer) be another potential good one--and both are in Malign Sorcery. There's probably more--I know Stormcast have a Scroll available to Lord-Arcanums and Knight-Incantors that make it so a caster's rolls that are equal to the spell's casting value are unsuccessful and the caster suffers D3 mortal wounds and a staff that makes it so an enemy Wizard in 12" of the bearer just can't cast any spells that phase.

Now for my own group locally we have two seraphon players. One, the more casual of the two, has shelved his seraphon because he says they are too easy and he feels bad playing people with them. The other, the more competitive one, brings kroak every time and will continue to do so. There are a few competitive guys willing to play against this so as long as I have competitive people to throw at him, there won't be a problem.

Suggest people not run MSUs then if they're so worried about the MW numbers.

For reference, Lord Kroak destroyed most of my force in one turn and my army was:

Great Unclean One
Festus
30 plague bearers
30 plague bearers
10 blight kings
Chaos Mammoth

In one turn of casting he killed the great unclean one, festus, left the plague bearers down to 4 models, left the other plague bearers down to 5 models, killed the blight kings, and the mammoth was taken down to 6 of its 22 wounds.

auticus wrote:
For reference, Lord Kroak destroyed most of my force in one turn and my army was:

"One turn" doesn't tell us how many casts.

Great Unclean One
Festus
30 plague bearers
30 plague bearers
10 blight kings
Chaos Mammoth

In one turn of casting he killed the great unclean one, festus, left the plague bearers down to 4 models, left the other plague bearers down to 5 models, killed the blight kings, and the mammoth was taken down to 6 of its 22 wounds.

So 3 units of Daemons and 3 not.
D3 wounds per cast on the Mammoth, Blightkings, and Festus--D6 wounds per cast on the PBs and GUO.

Its one model, that destroyed over 90% of my army in one turn. Its obscene.

At this point of having gone over the game several times over I have no idea how one counters that, nor do I want to waste time setting up models to face that again.

That doesn't even count the rest of his army and what they can do (and he now has two engines of the gods in the hopes of free summons that free up his slaan from summoning)

auticus wrote:
Its one model, that destroyed over 90% of my army in one turn. Its obscene.

I literally had someone complain about my Akhelian King doing the same thing to his force during a charge at High Tide, with Lord of Tides on him and the Command Trait that gives his melee weapons an additional 2 attacks.

At this point of having gone over the game several times over I have no idea how one counters that, nor do I want to waste time setting up models to face that again.

Then don't? I'm still curious as to how many casts it took during this "one turn" and how everything was set up. Was Kroak on a Vortex? Astrolith Bearer planted? Did he roll 10+?

That doesn't even count the rest of his army and what they can do (and he now has two engines of the gods in the hopes of free summons that free up his slaan from summoning)

*shrug* Smells like you have a powergamer problem then.

Yeah one model able to do that much damage needs an FAQ to fix things; the only two real solutions for players are to not include him or to basically rely on sniping the character off the table before it can get a turn doing any spells. Both of which are not that optimal solutions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

*shrug* Smells like you have a powergamer problem then.

A player building an army well and using good unit shouldn't be punished for playing hte game well. Instead it shows that there's room for abuse within the rules which should be addressed with an update from GW.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah one model able to do that much damage needs an FAQ to fix things; the only two real solutions for players are to not include him or to basically rely on sniping the character off the table before it can get a turn doing any spells. Both of which are not that optimal solutions.

The damage output IS EXCEEDINGLY SITUATIONAL. It's D3 Mortal Wounds, PER CAST OF THE SPELL, going to D6 Mortal Wounds per unit within the affected radius when models have the "Chaos Daemons" keyword. Those 105 MWs were because of the fact that the Slaanesh player ran MSUs--like a lot of tournament lists tend to--and the Seraphon player had a way to counter it. A cheesy, probably got him docked sportsmanship scores way--but he had a way to counter it.

The easiest fix with regards to Kroak's spell is to remove the ability to get ANY range modifiers on it. No Astrolith bonus, no bonus from rolling a 10+ to cast from Kroak being a Slann, no bonus from Balewind Vortex, nothing. Then it becomes a flat 3D6" range from Kroak's radius. 3 to 18 inches tops.

 Kanluwen wrote:

*shrug* Smells like you have a powergamer problem then.

A player building an army well and using good unit shouldn't be punished for playing hte game well. Instead it shows that there's room for abuse within the rules which should be addressed with an update from GW.

There's a difference between "building an army well and using good units" and "spamming powerful items". The Engine of the Gods is powerful right now because it frees up Slann for casting--and if they're using a regular Slann instead of Kroak that massive radius nonsense isn't happening.

Then don't?

In an event, I don't have that option. On the map campaign he's going to be chugging for chaos armies because he knows he can auto win against them for the most part.

auticus wrote:

Then don't?

In an event, I don't have that option. On the map campaign he's going to be chugging for chaos armies because he knows he can auto win against them for the most part.

Then I don't know what to tell you. Make it so that he can't pick who he plays against?

Why would he get sportsmanship scores docked for a list if it was perfectly viable?

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
Why would he get sportsmanship scores docked for a list if it was perfectly viable?

Because sportsmanship scores aren't "is your list viable or not"...? A lot of people use them as a way to offset someone being a tool with their list/playstyle despite them having a well painted army etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:

auticus wrote:

Then don't?

In an event, I don't have that option. On the map campaign he's going to be chugging for chaos armies because he knows he can auto win against them for the most part.

Then I don't know what to tell you. Make it so that he can't pick who he plays against?

Unfortunately thats the point of a map campaign. You have banners on a map and you direct where they go.

With ladder events, its a little easier since he's going to be at the top of the ladder and therefore the chaos forces would have to directly challenge him. The bad part is the chaos armies won't challenge him, so can't get to the top of the ladder, so will start dropping since there is no point in playing in the ladder if you cannot climb it.

I hope that GW addresses this issue soon. Currently - it is what it is.

So why did you allow named characters in the first place?