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You are correct, i meant if they take OW then they can wait till later. Sorry was in a hurry to type earlier and wasn't paying attention.

I do agree with what you said, you shouldn't be charging things that will murder your clowns if you charge and don't fight right away.

Kinda why i charge late in the game and don't really multi-charge, charging for me are for cleaning up units.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Troupes on foot absolutely work, especially in any format where you're guaranteed good LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board, as is now standard in most tournaments. 11 points for effectively flying infantry ob-sec with a 4+ invuln is extremely cheap, especially by eldar standards.

Nobody else has anything like flying ob-sec infantry, much less for 11 points and with a 4+ invuln standard.

Not only are they good...they're arguably one of the very best troops choices in the game. Literally every other faction in the game would kill for a troops choice that good. Skyweavers have a reputation for being the best unit in the book but IMO troupes are even better.

That said, what they aren't good for is running in a mono harlequin list, because while they are excellent, surprisingly resilient objective holders...they don't really kill all that much.

But that's true of mono quins generally, and it's why they aren't competitive on their own. They just don't have the firepower 8th edition needs to be top-tier competitive.

Troupes are fantastic in eldar soup, though.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/10/psychic-awakening-deathwatchgw-homepage-post-2/

They posted a preview of the Deathwatch rules, which are pathetic, literally just giving them the exact same stratagems all the other chapters got, with no suggestion of any new rules or content at all. They do say there are 14 strats and they don't list all of them...but they also say they're just the same ones other chapters get. So it looks like absolutely no new content of any kind.

This seems to bode very badly for the quins rules, since we're the other faction they decided didn't deserve its own book.

On the other hand, they can't just give us junk some other faction already has but we didn't get yet, because we aren't space marines. So presumably they have to give us *something* new...I'm just resigned to the idea it's going to be very, very little.

I mean, they super are not the best troop choice in the game. I agree with you that they're better than some on here might be saying, but you can load up a harlequin with whatever melee weapon you want to give them, magically give them the ability to teleport 2" away from a unit of primaris marines and guarantee them the first turn, and the harlequins will lose that melee combat. And intercessors come with a 30" range gun...

Intercessors cost 17 points each. Obviously if you are evaluating troop quality you have to consider point cost. They also don't move as fast, don't ignore terrain, can't move over other models, can't advance and charge, can't fall back and shoot and charge, and don't have easy access to a 3++ and -1 to wound.

The whole point of my comment was they aren't actually great at killing stuff, but they shine for other reasons. You don't take them to kill stuff (though they aren't terrible at it with the wound reroll aura). 40k isn't only or even mainly a game about killing stuff. And troupes are absolutely excellent at doing what actually wins you 40k games.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Deathwatch rules being, thus far, a bit middling, once again their magic bolter ammo trick just got out-power creeped by other chapters tricks, to the point I'm not sure letting them use spec ammo with Bolter bonus' would be that bad

Harlies are in a slightly better place as they are already better than all (non spear) CWE melee and on par with wychys and inkys, so only need a few new options rather than obvious upgrades, so as long as the minion responsible for the Kabal traits in BoP is kept away should be fine

Honestly I prefer Banshees now! Piercing strike exarchs have added some serious punch to their damage capability, letting them threaten things like centurions, oblits and aggressors, which are exaclty the type of unit they want to be tying up anyway, and they were already an interesting toolbox unit.

 grouchoben wrote:
Honestly I prefer Banshees now! Piercing strike exarchs have added some serious punch to their damage capability, letting them threaten things like centurions, oblits and aggressors, which are exaclty the type of unit they want to be tying up anyway, and they were already an interesting toolbox unit.

I agree the Exarchs are now rather handy its just the 4 wound sponges that come with it are still mehh, yes they are fast but thats never really been an Eldar issue

4 wound sponges

Oh btw, brace yourselves clowns, the DW article has been leaked and it's exactly as bad as feared.

I think it goes without saying that Harles are going to get very lazy treatment.

The only question is what that will be, since they can't just C&P rules onto them the way they could for Deathwatch. They have to give us *something* new.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think it goes without saying that Harles are going to get very lazy treatment.

The only question is what that will be, since they can't just C&P rules onto them the way they could for Deathwatch. They have to give us *something* new.

/open Ynnarirule.txt

Search "ynnari", replace with "Harlequin"

jobs a good 'un

yukishiro1 wrote:

Or do you mean you're charging multiple different units with multiple different units of harles, all of which are threatening enough in combat to kill your harles if they strike first?

Mostly this.

If so...just don't do that? Target something else instead. Unless their whole army is combat, there should be a number of weaker, more tempting targets you'd be better going after instead.

5-man troupe squads are not deadly enough to really go toe to toe with anything in combat, whether they're striking first or not. So they shouldn't be used that way. Use them to bully stuff that doesn't want to be in combat...they're not going to do well thrown into combat specialists.

That's fair. Maybe I'm just stuck thinking of them as melee monsters like in previous editions. Back when initiative was a thing, always swinging first meant that I could throw them into lots of fights and count on surviving by virtue of removing enough of the enemy's attacks back before they swung.

These days, I can throw two squads of clowns at two different shoota boy squads and have the second squad of boyz interrupt and kill enough clowns to make it a bad trade. Against models that don't have good AP, we're basically only as durable as fire warriors or dire avengers, but we tend to cost more.

So then my followup question is: what should I be doing if I face an enemy with decent melee all over the place? Against something like orks, only charging a single clown squad per turn while the enemy lights me up with dakka or Da Jumps units into charge range seems like it surely shouldn't be the way to go. Or is it?

Well, the question isn't so much what's the best play in the abstract, the question is what do you need to do to win this particular game?

Harlequins aren't a top-tier competitive faction run mono (though they can soup with craftworlds into a top-tier list), but they especially aren't top-tier at killing stuff. If you are trying to win by tabling your opponent, it's really not a good army to pick.

If you're facing an army that will interrupt on you, it may still be the right play if charging multiple squads gets you something important even when one squad gets pasted. But if all it's getting you is that squad being killed in melee instead of on the next turn's shooting...the better play is probably to look for a way to move them somewhere they can't be shot, and ideally somewhere that will get you points while they're not being shot. This is, incidentally, the one thing quins are really good at - playing the mission through mobility.

That said, if you're in a position to trade a 5-man harle squad for a squad of ork boyz that is presumably 20+ models (does anyone take boyz squads of less than that?), that's usually a good trade to be making, because it cost your opponent at least 140 points to your ~80ish (you really shouldn't be spending more than this on a 5-man troupe).

New Harlequin rules for PA coming out end of next month

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/06/white-dwarf-news-and-a-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

They start on page 44, end on page 49, lol. Six pages. Same as Deathwatch got. One page for the cover, that leaves five pages for rules...which could actually be something significant, but it could also be five pages of garbage "make your own troupe" rules like genestealer cults got.

I look forward to at least one of the remaining pages being devoted to a name-generator.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
New Harlequin rules for PA coming out end of next month

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/06/white-dwarf-news-and-a-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Well, I wouldn't be too negative here.
Hope for some useful stuff.

 vipoid wrote:
I look forward to at least one of the remaining pages being devoted to a name-generator.

Those name generators are the highlight of Psychic Awakening!

pm713 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I look forward to at least one of the remaining pages being devoted to a name-generator.

Those name generators are the highlight of Psychic Awakening!

Indeed, they are always spot on.
But I've never used them.

yukishiro1 wrote:
They start on page 44, end on page 49, lol. Six pages. Same as Deathwatch got. One page for the cover, that leaves five pages for rules...which could actually be something significant, but it could also be five pages of garbage "make your own troupe" rules like genestealer cults got.

Well at least it can't be as bad and full of holes as the Deathwatch "update", so that's one bright side.

As long as its not as bad as the Kabal custom traits i'll be fine.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
As long as its not as bad as the Kabal custom traits i'll be fine.

One of the reasons the Kabals were bad was because they're basically a range army, were give a bunch of melee benefits, and that's about it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
As long as its not as bad as the Kabal custom traits i'll be fine.

One of the reasons the Kabals were bad was because they're basically a range army, were give a bunch of melee benefits, and that's about it.

Were any of the DE custom traits good? What I remember from looking at them is the overwhelming impression they were a waste of my time and I wouldn't look at them again...

pm713 wrote:

Were any of the DE custom traits good? What I remember from looking at them is the overwhelming impression they were a waste of my time and I wouldn't look at them again...

There were a few combos that were solid, but GW promptly nerfed them via errata.

The kabals ones are not even fitting for them in any remote way or used to help them with that they needed.

Kabals was the EASY fix and they clearly didn't want to fix them. A few ideas that would not have been powerful, but list changing that and actual DE player could have came up with, examples:

-Splinter racks work with Splinter cannons and you get +1 to hit when using them and embarked on a transport with them
-Dark lances are now assault weapons when equipped to Kabal warriors
-Archon Aura effects <KABAL> units embarked in transports while the Archon is also embarked
-Dark Lances when firing at a vehicle when rolling for damage now instead rolls 2D6 and pick the highest
-Chain-Snares enemy non-vehicle units when choosing to fallback must roll a D6, on a 4+ that unit may fall back, otherwise it can not
etc..

Sadly we got Venom spam is still good, and Talos are better than before, ok... but those were already being spammed, Splinter cannons, Raider + upgrades, Dark Lance, all not being used didn't get touched.
Also i know at least 30 DE players that Email them asking to give Mercs the obsession keywords, yeah... that didn't happen


So for harlequins i would hope we can get something to give our Voidweavers and troupes a boost. What i am scared of is we will get something along the lines of Kabal a "new way to play them, but in a way that doesn't actually help them"

Some traits i would give us are:
+6" to all vehicles gun range. This would make Void/Star weavers a slight advantage over Skyweavers, 30" range is huge for quins
Great harlequin aura works on shooting as well
Troupes always have -1 to be shot outside of 12" range
Webway gate no longer has wounds or stats, it is no treated as terrain, aka lifts the placement restrictions and no longer can be destroyed
Neuro pistols now have -1 to the enemies invul saves

Stratagem: A unit can shoot with as many grenades as it wants instead of 1. This works with troupes and Skyweavers, intent for the skyweavers.

Anyone tried running 12 man troupes On foot geared up for combat and had any luck? I’m designing my list and don’t want to go with soaring spite fusion boats. Planning on runnings 3x5 in Starweavers and 12-18 bikes. I quite fancy frozen stars or midnight sorrow. Just wondered if there’s any tips or tricks?

1 or 2 10-12 man troupes with fairly limited equipment (i.e. less than half with anything other than the base loadout) are very good in a soup list as an efficient way to hold the middle of the board; the ability to be on a 3++ with -1 to wound from the shadowseer aura for only 1CP, with the potential for -1 to hit and/or a 6+++, is what makes this work as a strategy, combined with all the rules they ignore as infantry that can advance/charge/fallback and effectively fly. This makes the best out of what they do well.

What foot troupes aren't very good at is going toe to toe with anything that's decent in melee - they will even struggle against stuff like intercessors, which cost the same points if you give the troupes a weapon. The basic problem is that there is no efficient weapon for killing T4 infantry with good saves, especially if they have multiple wounds - and given how much of the meta that is, they just don't work out well.

But that's the story of quins generally right now - good in soup where you can supplement them with stuff that actually has damage output and/or durability, not very good as mono.

That said, I'd wait a week or two to do anything re: quins at all, as we should get a preview by then with some idea what if anything they're getting in the WD issue. It'll probably be disappointing and change nothing, but I would wait to see before investing time and money in units that may be about to change.

Malefic666 wrote:
Anyone tried running 12 man troupes On foot geared up for combat and had any luck? I’m designing my list and don’t want to go with soaring spite fusion boats. Planning on runnings 3x5 in Starweavers and 12-18 bikes. I quite fancy frozen stars or midnight sorrow. Just wondered if there’s any tips or tricks?

It depends on your loca, is there a lot of Ignore LoS weapons? DO you have a lot of LoS blocking terrain? Etc..

But you can make 1x12 work really well with stratagems and powers. You can make them -1, pseudo -2 to be hit, 3++ instead of 4++ and they can move 30" turn 1.
Move 8", Advance stratagem move 6" (14") +D6" with advance, Twilight pathways for another 8+D6, so on average its 29"

You can also take them to stop OW, now you are -2, 3++, stop overwatch, 29" movement.

New quins rules has been leaked

PM me if link breaks
https://imgur.com/gallery/LzGjui1

 Amishprn86 wrote:
New quins rules has been leaked

PM me if link breaks
https://imgur.com/gallery/LzGjui1

Thanks for enlightening.
Not bad but not a must-have.

Damn that's a lot of power packed just in a few rules. Especially strats with movement/consolidate shenanigans.

Im genuinely enjoying the character focused nature of the update.