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That Death Jester pivotal ability that pins enemies down preventing overwatch is soooooo good!

 Elfric wrote:
That Death Jester pivotal ability that pins enemies down preventing overwatch is soooooo good!

One Death Jester with this ability will basically be mandatory in any Harlequin or Aeldari army that includes melee units.

Yeah, it really is. Just requiring a hit means it's pretty much 100% guaranteed - even with big -hit modifiers you're going to hit at least one of three shots with base hitting on 2s. It's an assault weapon too, so the threat range is quite good, even with the base 24 inch gun. And a 5 wound character with a 4++ is actually a pretty tough to remove delivery platform, especially considering the almost trivially low 45 point cost.

The -2 movement is a lot better than it seems at first, too. Combined with the consolidate on fall back strat, the amount of stuff you can prevent from being able to fall back out of combat with a troupes unit is deceptively large - the basic Tau shield drones, for example, and, if you can mostly surround them, even stuff like repulsors on max profile - if they have to move over or past one of your troupe models, 8 inches doesn't get them far enough that your own 6 inch consolidate can't get you back to tagging them.

It's also worth noting while on that subject that because Twilight Encore happens during the movement phase, even though it's a consolidate move, your troupes can ignore terrain and enemy models when making that move - so you can jump right over screens to follow the retreating <fly> unit, assuming there's somewhere for your model(s) to land.

DJ's are only 45 points, which means you can max out all 3 at just 135 points. That's 3 Knights that can be pinned, 3 LR tanks, ,3 squads of Fire Warriors and so on...

No, you can only take one with that role per army, so it's only one pin per turn. But it's still great.

Ahh okay that would have been nuts to pin 3 units a turn haha

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because GW want to keep the fiction alive that their books are worth buying. When the books become more errata than book, why would people bother buying them?

Hey if they want to release all the pointless garbage in 40$ books and all the good rules in White Dwarfs, I'm A-OK with that as a step forward.

The amount of hit and run shenanigans and extra movement with The Curtain Falls is game winning.

I think this might be one of the best stratagems in the entire book. So many applications with large troupes, skyweavers, solitaire, etc.

Couple that with War Dancers and you have a 5CP combination that's going to straight up win games for you.

Super excited to put together our thoughts in an article on this, but man ... are we excited!

 wuestenfux wrote:

Would mean voidweavers though.

They are debatable.
I usually run three of them.
They are objective campers and blasting away.
Since they are in the backfield in the most cases, they are not top priority for the enemy and so they often live a bit longer - longer than one thinks.

Cheers, yeh I'm thinking maybe they're not so bad after all, do you take them with haywire or prism cannons?

Remember you can now also spend 1CP to make 1 Voidweaver re-roll 1 dice per phase for hits or wounds via new Shadowseer Stratagem "Mythic Role".

Tho i'd imagine it would be better used on something bigger with a better gun, but in pure Quins.

Also note that stratagem can be used on anything, even the Humbling Cruelty DJ. Or a FP TM, etc..

I would think it'd usually work out better to just take another battalion with 3x5 troupes and 2 troupe masters than go up to a brigade, because that requires not only taking three voidweavers but also splitting up your bikes into smaller units, which really isn't ideal - unless you're taking 18 bikes already I guess, but in that case, just split them into an outrider and take the CP from that for free IMO rather than paying 270 points for voidweavers to get 1 more CP.

Voidweavers just don't get there competitively. It's fine in a fluffy list but playing mono quins is gimping yourself enough already competitively without compounding it by spending nearly 300 points of your list on the only unit in the codex that is genuinely not very good.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I would think it'd usually work out better to just take another battalion with 3x5 troupes and 2 troupe masters than go up to a brigade, because that requires not only taking three voidweavers but also splitting up your bikes into smaller units, which really isn't ideal - unless you're taking 18 bikes already I guess, but in that case, just split them into an outrider and take the CP from that for free IMO rather than paying 270 points for voidweavers to get 1 more CP.

Voidweavers just don't get there competitively. It's fine in a fluffy list but playing mono quins is gimping yourself enough already competitively without compounding it by spending nearly 300 points of your list on the only unit in the codex that is genuinely not very good.

For now i do agree with double battalion, but i do disagree with a Voidweaver can no be competitive, as that depends on the mission type you are playing, sometimes you just want a cheap unit with some fire power sitting in back shooting thats not taking a lot of threat. Or if you are playing super MSU with 12 vehicles.

One of my best games was 3 voidweavers and 9 starweavers (still had 12 bikes too) I got to top table in a 20 man event, lost only to first player b.c its ITC and i was giving up to many points (I hate ITC for that reason, you can't build a list like you can in GW missions, you need to build one dedicated to stopping and taking secondaries). I do much better in GW missions.

Well sure, everything is "competitive" in the sense that it's possible to win games with. Even stuff that is legitimately terrible like mutilators *can* be successful. And voidweavers certainly aren't as bad as mutilators. But when I say competitive I don't mean "is it possible to use these in a winning list," I mean "is this a compelling use of points."

No range, no durability aside from the invuln, no real shooting power, and no indirect fire is not a particularly competitive package, especially compared to all the hugely competitive choices the aeldari superfaction has in the same role. Like if you compare what 3x voidweavers do for a quins list to what taking a 3x night spinner detachment does for your army competitively...let's just say the comparison isn't pretty. Sure, the nightspinners cost a bit more, but they completely transform the way you have to play because they give you indirect ranged threat, which is totally game-changing re: how your opponent has to approach the game. Whereas the voidweavers just add a few more 24 inch range shots on an army that already has plenty of ability to kill stuff if you're that close. Or if you just want something to shoot with, there are plenty of better choices for that too in the craftworlds list - wraithlords, war walkers, falcons, vibro cannons, crimson hunter exarchs, etc. Voidweavers simply can't compete in mathhammer against stuff vs the brutal efficiency of expert crafters/masterful shots.

The basic problem is that voidweavers pay a lot of points for mobility in a list where you just don't need more mobility. And the biggest problem is that even if you're committed to playing mono quins (which is not the competitive choice to begin with), another unit of 6 bikes is usually going to do more for you than 3 voidweavers.

Voidweavers might even be decent in other superfactions, where that mobility adds something the superfaction doesn't already have. But in aeldari...there are other choices that just do what you want voidweavers to do, but better. It really can't be overstated how much the EC/MS combo changes the math re: shooting competitiveness.

I mean I am happy to be proven wrong. But I doubt you are going to see anybody using voidweavers in competitive tournament lists any time soon, certainly not while EC/MS stays unnerfed.

There is a difference in terrible and is fine, a Voidweaver is fine. Look at Venoms, 65pts vs the 90pts, thats 25pts difference and you are getting better everything other than range Its like the jump from a Raider to a Ravager in power level and point values. When looking at the big picture with all the buffs, damage, options, abilities, etc.. Voidweavers honestly are in a fine place. Do they need a little support to be worth it over Skyweavers? Sure. Are they a terrible unit? No. And i do use that mobility, quins are not suppose to stand and gun. Going up and down terrain to stop being charged, to get clear LoS, etc.. is a key part of the unit and the army.

As you said tho other things can do what they do better, but that doesn't mean they are bad. Looking at pure math and nothing else, why play quins at all then? At a certain point flavor needs to over come value. And when something works but has other better options, if it works it works.

Oh I agree, they're fine. That's a great description of them.

Maybe it's just a terminology thing, but for me, competitive is a rank above fine (and two ranks above terrible). IMO, every choice in the harlequin codex is competitive except voidweavers, which are fine (Death jesters used to also be fine, but are super competitive with the changes).

I guess i'm different, as for me DJ were very competitive even before the updates. Being able to put them behind cover for 45pts with character protection means they never die any game. They could hold points, in ITC help with recon, BEL, etc.. they help me win every game just as much as units made to kill. Not other unit for 45pts for less is as survivable objective holder that i can think of. Sure he doesn't have ObjSec, but that only come sup once every 5 games for me honestly, and its when i go after someone with my troupes when it does come up.

For me value isn't just raw damage. Its points vs usefulness.

Do you think a Vanguard of Death Jesters - one with each of the new abilities - would be worth it?

I think it depends whether you're considering aeldari overall or committed to mono quins. I think DJs are competitive in a mono quins list even before the changes (if we assume that's even a thing), but only fine if you're picking from the whole aeldari superfaction. Obviously post-changes they are hugely competitive in soup as well.

Unit value is obviously not just about raw damage, or even mostly about raw damage. 40k is won by moving and holding more than by doing damage. IMO troupes are probably the best single unit in the whole codex for aeldari soup (yes, even better than bikes), despite being quite anemic at actually doing damage for their points cost.

The reason I don't rate voidweavers isn't that they are bad at doing damage per se; it's that they are a damage-focused unit that isn't very good at doing damage. Everything besides damage they can do is done better by something else in the same codex, much less something else in the same superfaction, but they're not particularly good at doing damage either. So that leaves them in an awkward place. They aren't downright bad, but I cannot think of any role they do better than other choices, which means they can't be considered competitive in my mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Do you think a Vanguard of Death Jesters - one with each of the new abilities - would be worth it?

I think this definitely has potential as dreaming shadow. I have one in the list I've been kicking around for the last 24 hours. Right now I am running it with a second shadowseer with the -1A aura since that isn't <masque> locked, and none of the shadowseer's other powers are locked either. Though if I was only going to run one shadowseer I'd definitely take it in the main masque and take a troupe master instead.

I am not so hot on the vanguard in any other masque; at that point I'd just take 1 or maybe 2 jesters in the main battalion instead. This also assumes you're taking two bats (presumably 1 craftworlds 1 quins for the most competitive list). I think quins really need at least a double bat to function now, so I would not run a vanguard unless it's in addition to that double bat.

The other option for a vanguard I guess is that if you aren't philosophically opposed to mixing masques in a detachment, and are not running either dreaming shadow or midnight sorrow as your main masque, you can take a mixed bat with a midnight sorrow troupe master and solitaire and two dreaming shadow death jesters. They don't get the bonuses but it gives you access to the two strats (and Curtainfall, though that seems like much less of a consideration than before).

Ok thanks for the replies re voidweavers guys, that's pretty much what I was thinking, they're ok but don't really give me anything I need.

Also I totally get the comp argument for mixed lists but with these new rules I really want to see how far I can push mono harlies rn. Plus pure clowns is so much fun to play.

Will probably try out both brigade and double batt, but leaning towards the double batt atm, just know I'm going to need as many CP as I can get.

Double bat + a vanguard or spearhead is only 1CP less than a brigade and usually really easy to make - especially the vanguard; if you're playing mono quins you're probably taking 5 HQ and a solitaire and DJ anyway, so at that point a vanguard only needs 1 more DJ, which seems like a solid choice after the changes anyway, so it's practically free. I guess maybe the 5th HQ depends on whether you consider Cat Lady to be violating your mono quin rule or not - I can see the argument that you only want 4 HQs in the list if you don't take her.

 vipoid wrote:
Do you think a Vanguard of Death Jesters - one with each of the new abilities - would be worth it?

My first thought when I saw the rules, I have a list kicking around somewhere of mixed Aeldari with a Dreaming Shadow Vanguard of

* Rose Solitaire
* Curtainfall DJ
* DJ

and I always looked sadly at the last DJ that felt underwhelming as the Curtainfall guy would receive all the strats and he would be left alone until the other one died.

Now I'd maybe drop the Solitaire for a 3rd DJ:

* Curtainfall with +12" range
* Lament with extra hits
* Regular Dude with pinning

The traits on the Relic guys are swappable depending on your preference, you get either:

- 42" Curtainfall & 36" Lament with extra hits
- 30" Curtainfall with extra hits & 48" Lament

The point anyway is that the non-Jest will be targeted by An Example Made, so one Relic gets 3x hits and the other gets 2x, and one of them gets Shrieking Doom depending on the need.

IMO neither of the DJ relics are strong enough to be autopicks, nor is the double-hit strat good enough to be used in every game - but the value is in having the options there against the lists where they are really good.

While we're on the subject, how do you folks read "An Example Made" re: when it has to be declared? It just says "during the shooting phase." I have always read it to mean you have to declare its use before you actually fire the shot...but do you think there's an argument you can wait to see what the hit roll is before triggering it?

yukishiro1 wrote:
IMO neither of the DJ relics are strong enough to be autopicks, nor is the double-hit strat good enough to be used in every game - but the value is in having the options there against the lists where they are really good.

Fully agree, Curtainfall was good by itself (if not autopick) to make one DJ, but taken along Lament (and the DS strat) the value is more than the sum of the parts. It's about having options of which to boost and when.

As to when to trigger the strat, let's compare the wording with Shrieking Doom:

Shrieking Doom wrote:Use this Stratagem before a DEATH JESTER from your
army shoots a shrieker cannon or Curtainfall [...]

An Example Made wrote:Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase. Select a
DREAMING SHADOW CHARACTER from your army. [...]

So RAI seems to point to it being when you want, however:

An Example Made wrote:Until the end of the phase, each successful hit roll [...]

ie by RAW it's pretty easy to argue that the ability applies from the moment you use the strat until the end of the phase, which means that if you declare after having hit then there are no more hit rolls happening after you using the strat, hence no bonus hits.

Yeah its hard to pick DJ relics now honestly.

Command point management is going to be a nightmare now as the temptation to take extra relics and Pivotal Roles is going to be very difficult to resist.

Well, you can only take 2 extra relics thanks to them not updating that bit, so the most you can spend on it is the 3CP. I dunno if that is good news or not, especially given how strong the argument is for taking 3, even with the dumb "old codex" tax on it. IMO there are like 5 really strong choices now and another 3-4 that are competitive on a situational basis. Lots of hard choices to be made...

sweetbacon wrote:Command point management is going to be a nightmare now as the temptation to take extra relics and Pivotal Roles is going to be very difficult to resist.

Just for the record the Pivotal Roles the swap is free, it's only if you want it on top of the vanilla one that you'll need a CP which may make refraining on the splurge a bit easier. New strats will be eying for your CP as well

yukishiro1 wrote:Well, you can only take 2 extra relics thanks to them not updating that bit, so the most you can spend on it is the 3CP. I dunno if that is good news or not, especially given how strong the argument is for taking 3, even with the dumb "old codex" tax on it. IMO there are like 5 really strong choices now and another 3-4 that are competitive on a situational basis. Lots of hard choices to be made...

I know you read it as an old vs new codex, but to me when they started coming out I felt is was more of a bling vs non-bling codex - ie Marines & Sisters who may have a lot of relics whereas it's rarer in other armies. I guess future releases will tell us what the pattern is.

Previously, I'd just take the Rose and call it a day but now, I think we are positively spoiled for choice when it comes to relics. So, I think taking three plus spending one or two CP to power up a Solitaire or Troupe Master with a second Pivotal Role, will be quite common. I think triple battalion might be required to run optimized mono Quins that fully take advantage of the synergies the new strats and relics provide.

Maybe, though they gave it to Ynnari too, and I dunno why they would be "blingier" than all other Aeldari.

Re: pivotal roles, reading it again, it looks like if you swap, you have to put that on your list, not choose it before the game. So that does raise the value of the 1CP somewhat because it allows you to tech against your opponent.

Based on that understanding, I think for troupe masters and shadowseers you're pretty much always going to be leaving the base on one because both base auras are so good, with the opportunity to tech; for duplicates of either model you presumably replace.

For DJs you will want to replace with the overwatch in almost every list; if you take two DJs you *might* want to leave the base ability on the second so you can tech between the two roles. If you take three you probably replace on all three, especially given that wrapping isn't as important any more which takes most of the value out of the base ability - the only time I ever really get use out of it is in preventing someone from removing the one model you've wrapped, and even that is super rare.

Solitaire is the one I have a hardest time knowing what to do with. I am tempted to say you keep blitz and then shell out the CP if you need to, but I'm not sure if that's just because I can't figure out how useful the abilities are likely to be, rather than because there is really an argument for choosing different ones against different opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sweetbacon wrote:
Previously, I'd just take the Rose and call it a day but now, I think we are positively spoiled for choice when it comes to relics. So, I think taking three will be plus spending one or two CP to power up a Solitaire or Troupe Master with a second Pivotal Role, will be quite common. I think triple battalion might be required to run optimized mono Quins that fully take advantage of the synergies the new strats and relics provide.

I don't think you need triple batt; with the ability to get reroll charges without the warlord trait, player of the twilight strikes me as almost always the best choice, and that is good for a reliable 3CP over the game, usually more. Double batt + vanguard/outrider + the trait is a reliable 17 and usually more like 19, which really ought to be plenty. I think the "+1 to charge if you already reroll charges" is mostly a trap; quins really aren't a deepstrike charging faction and that is the only place where that +1 is likely to be relevant.

Few units in all of 40k can mess with your opponent's mind like the Solitaire. The ability to have him deep strike for free with a decent chance of getting a charge off or to set up a more advantageous blitz OR blitz and then stack two or three negative hit modifiers on him if you're running suit of hidden knives may just be too good to pass up (although the second would be very situational). The six inch consolidate, which could possibly nine, and the ability to fight twice or fight on death is sure to add to your (poor) opponent's cognitive load as they worry about protecting their precious characters from a solitaire who can bounce around the board even better than before.