Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Also i am the one that talked about Troupes vs Wyches. But the point was to show before PA Troupes didn't have a good melee role like in DE Wyches, Wyches are more deadly to many things in melee (specially given the new PA rules) But Troupes are a "Jack of All from a close distance" unit they are not dedicated melee and should not been seen as dedicated, but htey are able to fill that role. I've always been mad about this as we are paying high in points for a unit that is "OK" at everything but not amazing at anything, we are always portrayed as this scary force when we get there, and i just get mad b.c we "are" kinda but not really b.c we don't have the tools everyone else has, we are literally missing essential tools. So going back to Wyches, they are not missing tools, they are cheaper and they can hang with us b.c they have some of those tools. If you just gave us RR1's to hit we would be significantly better

I guess the proliferation of multi-wound infantry changed everything. Maybe they should have gotten 2D on 6s to wound instead of the +1D strat.

karandrasss wrote:
I guess the proliferation of multi-wound infantry changed everything. Maybe they should have gotten 2D on 6s to wound instead of the +1D strat.

Yes there are a lot of multi wound units. But there are still a lot of 1w ones too. Troupes might be rough to kill 5 Primaris vs others, but if you can for sure kill them, does it matter if you over kill them or not? When have you seen 10man Primaris units anyways lol. I just use the maths to show we should be giving a small buff, but i have never had any problems actually killing 5man Primaris and 10man gants/IG. But when it comes to 3w and more elite units thats when we struggle for sure (Custodes, DG, etc..) or extremely hordes (But we might be better at that now with PA). My Troupes normally die moreso to shooting and MW's, or if i have to charge a high toughness high wound unit and OFC it wont kill it, but i was able to deal 10 wounds out of 18-28 giving me a change to kill it later.

karandrasss wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
9th edition killed my White Dwarf excitement anyway. Back to waiting...maybe the killer clowns are killer in 9th.

PA rules are being used in 9th.

Yes but we don't know how much our strategies will change, what with vehicles now shooting in combat yet allegedly a better assault phase.

Nothing changes until we get a new book. CP and stratagems are here to stay, this is confirmed. When 9th comes out we will not have a new codex (most likely only SM, Necrons, and Chaos will get the first new books in the first 6months). Yes vehicles "can" shoot in combat, but we have literally no idea "when" they can, or "how" they can, we know nothing so far. For all we also don't know if all vehicles can shoot into any combat, or just who they are in combat with.

More importantly, melee might work like shooting, you are a "OW for melee" but only melee on your turn, if that is going to be added (Just rumors) and f they can only shoot who they are in combat with, but not into other combats, then that is a buff for us and armies with fasting moving sacrifice units. Imagine a DJ stopping OW of a Leman Russ with a BC (new anti-infantry rules coming, i see these are popular again), stopping OW, it can't fallback b.c to many tanks on the table, can't die from crappy melee, and then now he HAS to shoot his BC at the DJ, which has a 50/50 chance not to even hurt it. This is as likely of an outcome b.c we don't know the rules yet.

Let's be serious... a 12-player troupe of the frozen stars masque form does have the tools to be really good in melee.

It has tremendous mobility and can be delivered into combat quite easily... 8" movement infantry, advance and charge / fall back and charge integrated, auto-advance 6" with 1CP, advance again in the psychic phase using a warp charge value 6 power (shadowseer casting it doesn't even have to be the same masque as the troupe and you'll be running multiple SS if playing mono-clowns), can even reuse the autoadvance 6" stratagem (different phases, TP wording)... that translates into a 16" + 2D6 (could be converted into 12 for 2CP) + 2D6" threat range (20" to 40"... average is 30")... they of course have flip belts, so they can move over terrain, enemy models, etc.

They also have a 72% chance of making it to combat out of deepstrike if you take a player of the light (re-roll failed charges) FS TM warlord with prince of light (+1 to charge rolls if coupled with PotL) and are willing to use tactical reroll if appropriate. I admit you'll be making your warlord a player of the twilight instead most of the times, but since the choice is only made after you know your opponent and mission in ITC, you have that option.

Decent damage output... while troupes don't have access to decent to hit roll bonuses, they don't really need them... they get an additional attack on the charge, meaning they have 5 attacks each, hitting on 3+. Large units will be equipped with caresses (S5 AP-2 Dmg1) and will typically be accompanied by a troupe master that grants them to wound re-rolls (troupe can either trail with naked players to be within the TM bubble or the TM can be delivered where needed using a relic (domino shroud) or a 1CP stratagem (virtuosos of the webway, webway ambush). If needed, their caresses can be turned into a Dmg 2 weapon at a cost of 2CPs. They also have a 2CP strat to add +1 to their wound rolls against infantry, beasts or bikers although I reckon you won't be using it often. More importantly, they can be chosen to fight again at the end of the fight phase for 3CP's (it works as long as you are within 3" of an enemy unit for them). Being in 25mm bases does also help

Not as fragile as they seem... while they are T3, if within range of a SS, they are -1 to wound and, more importantly, their 4++ can be turned into a 3++ very easily for just 1CP. Option is there to make them -1 to hit (veil of tears psychic power, WCV of 6) or make the unit attacking them - to hit (fog of dreams, WCV of 6). You could even attempt to cast both... o try webway dance to get a 6+++. They aren't super difficult to hide either and you will not easily fall back from them and shoot them to death now that they can make a 6" consolidate move towards the unit that felt back from them for 1CP (twilight encore). Last, if you fear retaliation, you can use the curtain falls to ball back / move instead of consolidating after having fought. And one more thing, enemy units with 24" and 30" rapid fire weapons only tap twice if within 6" and 9" respectively if your unit is in aura range of a SS with veil of illusion.

If what I've explained it's not a good melee unit, reasonable costed (around 200pts) and with multiple tools at its disposal, then I'm totally lost.

As for killing T8 models... well, skyweavers do fulfill that role very well.

PD: forgot to mention that they also have tools for charging without being overwatched (starmist raiment relic, DJ pivotal role humbling cruelty).

Its all CP based. Want a reliable DS? CP and Heroes, want a reliable change? CP and heroes, want to reliably not die turn 1? CP and heroes. We should relay a little on heroes. But being able to kill lots of infantry we should not. A FS 5man troupe with embraces only kills a8 IG without a TS. It doesn't even kill all 10... that to me is bad. They ncan't even relay on their pistols before meleeing Guardsmen b.c on average its 1.5 dead..... with a TM near yes you can kill 12 IG. WHY do i need a TM to kill a throwaway IG unit?

Fingers crossed the soup tax isnt too high as dropping an in a cwe / de airwing or spearhead(?) seems rather popular

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Fingers crossed the soup tax isnt too high as dropping an in a cwe / de airwing or spearhead(?) seems rather popular

Huge assumption. I think it'll be high enough to not want to do it with 3 factions, but low enough to be viable for 2 detachments. It just makes sense from a financial and balance perspective.

Well, the whole game revolves around auras and stratagems for the most part. With regards to the 10-man IG unit... you are better off not killing all models

eparedes0785 wrote:
Well, the whole game revolves around auras and stratagems for the most part. With regards to the 10-man IG unit... you are better off not killing all models

Not always

Not having access to hit rerolls or bonuses is a massive issue. It is the main reason troupes underperform relative to actual specialist melee units. Losing 33% of your damage right off the bat is brutal on the overall efficiency of the unit.

If troupes had the ability to reroll hits and/or hit on 2s the way most specialist melee does, they would be legitimately good, top-tier combat units instead of just merely decent. They'd still suffer from not having a good weapon for killing 2W models and not having good ways to threaten T7 and especially T8, but they'd be very good at killing everything else.

5 attacks was a big number when the codex came out. It's not so great in a world where even blood angel scouts can easily have 5 attacks too, wounding T3 on 2s, or where repentia have 4 STR 8 -4 D2 attacks, or where possessed bomb obliterates anything when buffed up, etc.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

More importantly, melee might work like shooting, you are a "OW for melee" but only melee on your turn, if that is going to be added (Just rumors) and f they can only shoot who they are in combat with, but not into other combats, then that is a buff for us and armies with fasting moving sacrifice units. Imagine a DJ stopping OW of a Leman Russ with a BC (new anti-infantry rules coming, i see these are popular again), stopping OW, it can't fallback b.c to many tanks on the table, can't die from crappy melee, and then now he HAS to shoot his BC at the DJ, which has a 50/50 chance not to even hurt it. This is as likely of an outcome b.c we don't know the rules yet.

The tanks can shoot in melee thing...I listened that part and conversation went roughly like this:

"many have complained about grots charging into tanks rendering them useless"
"that doesn't work like that anymore"
"the tank will kill them in melee"

AT which point another said "and shoot other stuff"

So it sounded you can shoot FROM melee but nothing about shooting INTO melee. I doubt they will give tanks special ability to target INTO melee. So I expect it to be "can shoot even if you are in melee but have to target unit not in melee".

So in theory if you get all your units into melee and they can't fall back with anything you would still be safe from shooting. They can shoot FROM melee but wouldn't have anything to shoot AT.

Mind you this is just guess based on what they said which might or might not have been fully accurate.

I suspect it'll be something more complicated than that. As dumb as charging a grot into a tank to prevent it from shooting is, it's just as dumb for a tank to be charging into a blob of grots to protect itself from shots.

I suspect it will either go both ways - i.e. tanks that are in combat can shoot from combat but can also be shot by others while in combat - or it'll be something that doesn't just outright allow you to shoot from combat, but maybe instead lets you ram, which pushes enemy infantry to just beyond 1" from your model, and allows you to shoot afterwards since it doesn't count as falling back.

tneva82 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

More importantly, melee might work like shooting, you are a "OW for melee" but only melee on your turn, if that is going to be added (Just rumors) and f they can only shoot who they are in combat with, but not into other combats, then that is a buff for us and armies with fasting moving sacrifice units. Imagine a DJ stopping OW of a Leman Russ with a BC (new anti-infantry rules coming, i see these are popular again), stopping OW, it can't fallback b.c to many tanks on the table, can't die from crappy melee, and then now he HAS to shoot his BC at the DJ, which has a 50/50 chance not to even hurt it. This is as likely of an outcome b.c we don't know the rules yet.

The tanks can shoot in melee thing...I listened that part and conversation went roughly like this:

"many have complained about grots charging into tanks rendering them useless"
"that doesn't work like that anymore"
"the tank will kill them in melee"

AT which point another said "and shoot other stuff"

So it sounded you can shoot FROM melee but nothing about shooting INTO melee. I doubt they will give tanks special ability to target INTO melee. So I expect it to be "can shoot even if you are in melee but have to target unit not in melee".

So in theory if you get all your units into melee and they can't fall back with anything you would still be safe from shooting. They can shoot FROM melee but wouldn't have anything to shoot AT.

Mind you this is just guess based on what they said which might or might not have been fully accurate.

Yes i listen to it too and the purpose of my post is, we don't know anything yet.

Again, it's not the troupes role to kill vehicles. And they have fusion pistols to murder high toughness monsters

eparedes0785 wrote:
Again, it's not the troupes role to kill vehicles. And they do have fusion pistols to murder high toughness monsters.

Not fully true tho. Many times over many editions infantry became dedicated AT roles. Example, at one point Wyches were dedicated Anti-tank. Not saying we will or should have Troupes tank hunting, just saying in the future that could be a thing given new rules and math.

ALso we don't know if vehicles will have its own keywords and works like Apoc were only certain weapons can really effect vehicles.

I never said no infantry can kill vehicles in the whole game. I only meant to say that, in a solo harlequins army, that role is fulfilled by skyweavers at the moment (I'm not talking about 9ed as we don't know the rules yet)

eparedes0785 wrote:
I never said no infantry can kill vehicles in the whole game. I only meant to say that, in a solo harlequins army, that role is fulfilled by skyweavers at the moment (I'm not talking about 9ed as we don't know the rules yet)

Yeah i agree with that. Especially after running FP boats 50+ times, with no re-rolls of any kinda and Invuls, they just don't do much at all.

Yeah, there's a reason fusion pistols only cost 7 points. I think it's usually worth taking one on a troupe master and 1 per troupe squad (maybe 2 in a 10 or 12 man, maybe) just because it occasionally comes up trumps, but it's not something to build around.

Nothing changes until we get a new book. CP and stratagems are here to stay, this is confirmed. When 9th comes out we will not have a new codex (most likely only SM, Necrons, and Chaos will get the first new books in the first 6months). Yes vehicles "can" shoot in combat, but we have literally no idea "when" they can, or "how" they can, we know nothing so far. For all we also don't know if all vehicles can shoot into any combat, or just who they are in combat with.

Vehicles able to shoot into combat will make the new edition even more shooty.
Avoid close combat is a new doctrine which will render cc Harlies useless.

There’s literally no point trying to guess 9th rules. Saying melee is over because tanks can shoot into melee is nonsense until we know what the rules interaction is. I could just say, ‘well new cover rules are going to make shooting less effective’ but do I really know that? Nope.

8th ed Harlequins, if you’re not bringing 12-18 haywire bikes to deal with vehicles then you’re doing something wrong imo.

People arguing whether troupe are top tier melee, does it matter? It’s not like we have an alternative choice when playing mono. They have 4-5 x S5 AP2 D1 (or whatever other variable you equip them with) attacks each and are troops,therefore helping to generate the CPs they need to punch way above their weight. I think epardes gets it when he points out that troupes are frigging boss and better than lots of elites in other armies. Of course they’re not the best out there or the top tier of whatever classification you want to give them but for Harlequins they work damn well.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Vehicles able to shoot into combat will make the new edition even more shooty.
Avoid close combat is a new doctrine which will render cc Harlies useless.

That assumes vehicles can shoot INTO combat.

There's difference from being able to shoot FROM combat to shoot INTO combat. The video indicated FROM rather than TO. Aka your land raider can shoot at stuff not in melee even if it's in melee(or has ability to get out of melee and shoot at least) but they didn't say can shoot into melee. Well one said to that effect but then the rule guy interrupted and said "and shoot other stuff"

Before making too big assumptions maybe good idea to wait to see what the rule REALLY is. ATM it's more likely you can shoot FROM than INTO based on video and considering it's more logical on top of that.

tneva82 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Vehicles able to shoot into combat will make the new edition even more shooty.
Avoid close combat is a new doctrine which will render cc Harlies useless.

That assumes vehicles can shoot INTO combat.

There's difference from being able to shoot FROM combat to shoot INTO combat. The video indicated FROM rather than TO. Aka your land raider can shoot at stuff not in melee even if it's in melee(or has ability to get out of melee and shoot at least) but they didn't say can shoot into melee. Well one said to that effect but then the rule guy interrupted and said "and shoot other stuff"

Before making too big assumptions maybe good idea to wait to see what the rule REALLY is. ATM it's more likely you can shoot FROM than INTO based on video and considering it's more logical on top of that.

Seconded.

Well, I'll put all intended purchases on hold until we know more about the new ed.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
I guess the proliferation of multi-wound infantry changed everything. Maybe they should have gotten 2D on 6s to wound instead of the +1D strat.

Yes there are a lot of multi wound units. But there are still a lot of 1w ones too. Troupes might be rough to kill 5 Primaris vs others, but if you can for sure kill them, does it matter if you over kill them or not? When have you seen 10man Primaris units anyways lol. I just use the maths to show we should be giving a small buff, but i have never had any problems actually killing 5man Primaris and 10man gants/IG. But when it comes to 3w and more elite units thats when we struggle for sure (Custodes, DG, etc..) or extremely hordes (But we might be better at that now with PA). My Troupes normally die moreso to shooting and MW's, or if i have to charge a high toughness high wound unit and OFC it wont kill it, but i was able to deal 10 wounds out of 18-28 giving me a change to kill it later.

karandrasss wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
9th edition killed my White Dwarf excitement anyway. Back to waiting...maybe the killer clowns are killer in 9th.

PA rules are being used in 9th.

Yes but we don't know how much our strategies will change, what with vehicles now shooting in combat yet allegedly a better assault phase.

Nothing changes until we get a new book. CP and stratagems are here to stay, this is confirmed. When 9th comes out we will not have a new codex (most likely only SM, Necrons, and Chaos will get the first new books in the first 6months). Yes vehicles "can" shoot in combat, but we have literally no idea "when" they can, or "how" they can, we know nothing so far. For all we also don't know if all vehicles can shoot into any combat, or just who they are in combat with.

More importantly, melee might work like shooting, you are a "OW for melee" but only melee on your turn, if that is going to be added (Just rumors) and f they can only shoot who they are in combat with, but not into other combats, then that is a buff for us and armies with fasting moving sacrifice units. Imagine a DJ stopping OW of a Leman Russ with a BC (new anti-infantry rules coming, i see these are popular again), stopping OW, it can't fallback b.c to many tanks on the table, can't die from crappy melee, and then now he HAS to shoot his BC at the DJ, which has a 50/50 chance not to even hurt it. This is as likely of an outcome b.c we don't know the rules yet.

You had me at "we know nothing so far."

So I have a more general question of thought. With apparently all armies getting the same CP start based on points and using multiple detachments/factions supposedly lowering it, do you think that makes Quins more viable on their own?

My own thought is that yes and it will provide a big boost for us because of just how CP hungry the army is.

mightymconeshot wrote:
So I have a more general question of thought. With apparently all armies getting the same CP start based on points and using multiple detachments/factions supposedly lowering it, do you think that makes Quins more viable on their own?

My own thought is that yes and it will provide a big boost for us because of just how CP hungry the army is.

Some BIG ifs here. But if you pay CP to access detachments (with Brigade being say 0CP and battalion costing say a few CP up to vanguards, spearheads, and allied detachments costing a fair few) then maybe yes. But I know lots of other armies that would benefit, Custodes being one that stands out in particular. We’ll just have to wait and see how many more CP it ends up giving Harlequins, mono we’re pretty good as dual battalion or brigade now so currently we can easily get 13-18CPs which while still not enough for all those shiny relics and strats is pretty decent.

I’m personally hoping that CPs and detachments are one of the first new details that GW leak us.

We don't know if each detachment cost points, they only said allied detachment costs. We also don't know if we have to start with a battalion or what. SO its hard to say anything at this time.

Well, let's hope that Harlies are not doomed in the new edition.
Small factions with almost no variety could have a hard time when the basic rules change.
E.g., we had editions with a 4+ cover save (almost everywhere) such that a 4+ inv. save was less worth the points.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, let's hope that Harlies are not doomed in the new edition.
Small factions with almost no variety could have a hard time when the basic rules change.
E.g., we had editions with a 4+ cover save (almost everywhere) such that a 4+ inv. save was less worth the points.

Or +cover gives +invuls and we become OP b.c our new PA +Cover aura. Its just to early to say anything right now.

If they really move to punish soup that will hurt quins competitively because quins are too limited as a faction to be viable as mono. Any competitive list will be taking at least a craftworlds detachment, and sometimes even a DE detachment as well. The book is just too limited to be a fully-fledged army - too few unit choices, but more importantly lacking in too many key roles. An army with no vehicles over T5/5W, no ranged firepower beyond 24 inches, no indirect fire, no flyers, and only a single troops choice and a single elite multi-unit choice (bikes) is not a full army. It just isn't. Compare it to literally any other codex in the game and it becomes completely obvious that Harlequins are not a complete army on their own.

If they are really going to go to a place where armies are supposed to be taken mono, quins will either need a huge expansion to become a real, full army, or they'll need some kind of recognition that they are in fact *not* a complete army - like assassins or sisters of silence or inquisition - and therefore a way to take a detachment of them in another army without a big penalty.

yukishiro1 wrote:
A 10-man frozen stars squad with every man with caresses kills slightly over 7 primaris average, or 9.5 with reroll wounds, assuming they have no invuln or FNP. Meanwhile, 9 repentia, which cost 60 points less, kill 12 primaris even with zero buffs - with the passives they typically have, they kill an absolutely absurd 23 primaris. Making them more than twice as deadly as troupes. Repentia are extreme, but you get similar results for other top-tier combat units.

That same 10-man primaris intercessor squad, despite not being an assault-focused squad, kills virtually the same number of troupes as the troupes kill of it, if it fights first (6.89 vs 7.11), even with zero buffs and no chapter trait (i.e. not apples to apples). Blood angels and space wolf intercessors trade better than frozen stars troupes armed with caresses, even if they aren't in assault doctrine, and even if they have absolutely zero buffs aside from their chapter tactic. And cost less points, and have much better ranged shooting.

It's not that troupes are bad at killing stuff. They aren't. They're pretty good at killing stuff. They just aren't a top-tier combat unit - which, again, is fine.

Repentia are also not a Troupe choice (hah I'm funny) and significantly slower.