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 frightnight wrote:
The Last Jedi is, if not my favorite, definitely in my top three Star Wars films.

I felt it was a mature take on the series that gave us back the jedi after the terrible damage wrought on them by Lucas in the prequels.

It subverted so many tropes, from the Million To One Shot to the Plucky Young Hero Saving The Day By Bucking Authority. It wiped out the unnecessary mystery boxes JJ Abrams loves to set up but not resolve in favor of moving the narrative forward rather than looking back.

It is a movie that lovingly sent off the main players of the trilogy of my youth while focusing on the players of the new generation of Star Wars fans, and I loved every minute of it.

Sadly, the plot was driven by every character thinking "What is the worst thing I could do at the moment", then doing it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If people are rating ROTS 1/10 and lower than TPM and ROTC, they’re clearly talking utter bollocks.

It was the fight scene. It was probably the one thing in the movie everyone wanted since RotJ and was better than previous ones. It also was between actors and not CGI creations like cracked out Yoda or Grievous. I probably rank it higher for that alone. Also I've forgiven Lucas at this point. He's a special effects guy, not a writer or director, and CGI was the big new thing. As someone who did a lot of pioneering in FX, it's not that surprising he went down that rabbit hole. Also look up his daughter in her part in TPM. It's pretty obvs who he was making the movies for.

Manchu wrote:One of the biggest TLJ fans on DakkaDakka is speculating ITT as to which main cast member Rey is related. Just like back when TFA came out. He loved TLJ but is looking forward to JJ returning to fix Rian's mishandling of Rey. Regardless of whether you agree with that POV, it's a great example of how TLJ did not "wipe out" the mystery boxes - even for people who loved the movie. It sure as hell did not move the narrative forward. If Snoke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Snoke doesn't matter. If Luke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Luke doesn't matter. If Rey's background is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then revealing that Rey has no background doesn't matter.

Good for them? I think you have a skewed idea of what is relevant and irrelevant. Snoke is not irrelevant: he was the driver of Ben Solo's turn to the Dark Side, his mentor, and the architect of the First Order. His backstory, however, is. Where he came from or how he came to power does not matter, he is just a stepping stone for the development of Kylo Ren into the prime antagonist of the series.

Remember that in RotJ, the only things we knew about the Emperor was that he was a powerful user of the Dark Side, the ruler of the Empire, and Darth Vader's master. We have been spoiled by 30 years of backstory being fleshed out for characters, at the time "Dark Lord of the Sith" was just some title bestowed on Vader, and the Emperor didn't have it. "Palpatine" wasn't used anywhere in the movie. He was just the ultimate evil, which we knew because the Empire was evil and he ran it. Knowing anything more than we knew at the time wasn't needed to fully appreciate Vader's turn to the Light against his master, and Snoke is no different.

Rey being from nobodies is entirely relevant: you don't have to be from some high-falutin' bloodline to be the hero of Star Wars. I like this far more than her being someone's relative (for the record, if she was going to be I was in Camp Kenobi) because she has no family destiny, just a hero who came from nothing to do great things. It is also relevant for what I mentioned before: the return of the Force to all of us.

I think that Lucas did real damage in the prequels, first by making Force use into a quantifiable item (then softly retconning that) and then by having the nonsensical rule that while midichlorians were passed down by bloodline, Jedi were forbidden to have families. When I was young, and Star Wars was in the first stages of developing its universe (mostly through the West End Games RPGs), becoming a Jedi was something anyone could do with enough dedication and training. Sure, the Force was strong with some families, but just like being a monk or a priest, if you lived by the code and trained your senses, you could become a Jedi no matter who you were. TLJ sent us back to that, both with Rey being nobody other than the person the Force chose to empower to fight the rising Kylo Ren, and with the ending scene of the stableboy summoning his broom, holding it like a lightsaber, and looking to the stars. The Jedi Order is no more, in its place will be a new Jedi, full of hope and wonder.

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by Luke being irrelevant, he is the symbol of hope that the galaxy needed to defy the First Order. He is so depressed and despondent at the beginning that he sarcastically quips, "You think what? I’m gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?” and yet that is exactly what he does at the end, and the symbol of doing so cements him into legend as shown by the children recounting that to each other with their action figures.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Sadly, the plot was driven by every character thinking "What is the worst thing I could do at the moment", then doing it.

Yes, Poe made a lot of mistakes, but he learned and is better for them.

 frightnight wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Sadly, the plot was driven by every character thinking "What is the worst thing I could do at the moment", then doing it.

Yes, Poe made a lot of mistakes, but he learned and is better for them.

Well, at least one character did.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I hoped for an exciting Star Wars film full of easy-breezy grand space action and drama, and that's exactly what I got.

It sure sounds like your ideal Star Wars movie is a CGI artist's demo reel, not a movie.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 frightnight wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Sadly, the plot was driven by every character thinking "What is the worst thing I could do at the moment", then doing it.

Yes, Poe made a lot of mistakes, but he learned and is better for them.

Well, at least one character did.

It's true. Kylo Ren, for all his talk about letting go of the past, is still utterly dominated by it. There's really no hope for Hux, though, I think he's forever going to be a smug goon.

 Manchu wrote:
If Rey's background is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then revealing that Rey has no background doesn't matter.

Disagree strongly. Revealing that Rey has no Important Main Character parents (not the same at all as no background) is relevant and important because of how she was defined when we were first introduced to her. Her driving force in life is to find her parents, her desperate hope that she was abandoned because of Heroic Main Characters making Heroic Sacrifices to do Important Hero Things. That leaving her was the last resort, that of course they would return as soon as they possibly could. That her parents were more than worthless drug addicts who would dump their kid by the side of the road to go get high and then forget to ever come back. She builds up this whole fantasy world about how someday things are going to be ok, someday her parents will come back and fix everything.

TLJ demolishes the lie. Rey now has to accept the fact, which was pretty obvious from the beginning, that her parents were just bad parents who dumped their daughter in the middle of nowhere and disappeared into irrelevance. They aren't coming back to hand Rey her destiny and magically fix everything. If she wants to be somebody it has to be because she becomes somebody, not because she finally learns what her last name is and what her designated role in the story becomes. The message to Rey is "you are the hero because of what you do, not because of your last name".

One of the few things TLJ does right is making Rey's parents random people of no galactic significance. I wasn't hopefully speculating about which characters would be her parents, I was afraid that Disney would do something that utterly stupid as a clumsy attempt at milking the nostalgia cash cow. That the explanation would turn out to be every fan's awful self-insert fanfiction about how Luke is their real father and how they get to go off and become a jedi. And thank god it wasn't.

It's often hard to forget how little backstory there is in the original films given how much has been added since its release.
My favorite is probably remembering that the Noghri were originally intended to be the Sith that Vader was the Dark Lord of before Lucas stepped in since that wasn't really defined until TPM.

 frightnight wrote:



Rey being from nobodies is entirely relevant: you don't have to be from some high-falutin' bloodline to be the hero of Star Wars. I like this far more than her being someone's relative (for the record, if she was going to be I was in Camp Kenobi) because she has no family destiny, just a hero who came from nothing to do great things. It is also relevant for what I mentioned before: the return of the Force to all of us.

Rey being from nobodies is just Disney 101, real heros can only be orphans. I'm surprised Disney let reys parents live and we didn't see the shuttle explode. I wouldn't say that makes it relevant, just repetitive, derivative and Disney's go to trope. I think its why the wanted the star wars franchise to begin with, everyone is either a princess or an orphan.

Skaorn wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If people are rating ROTS 1/10 and lower than TPM and ROTC, they’re clearly talking utter bollocks.

It was the fight scene. It was probably the one thing in the movie everyone wanted since RotJ and was better than previous ones. It also was between actors and not CGI creations like cracked out Yoda or Grievous. I probably rank it higher for that alone. Also I've forgiven Lucas at this point. He's a special effects guy, not a writer or director, and CGI was the big new thing. As someone who did a lot of pioneering in FX, it's not that surprising he went down that rabbit hole. Also look up his daughter in her part in TPM. It's pretty obvs who he was making the movies for.

More fat checks from toy companies?

If you're suggesting Lucas' nonsense (provoked by bad reviews) about how a convoluted corporate takeover plot with endless yammering about galactic politicking was aimed at children, I'm just going to snicker.

@frightnight

"But the Emperor didn't have a backstory!" That has come up about a million times. And it has never mattered. People make this irrelevant point because they see Snoke as an analog to Palpatine in the OT. Wrong. Snoke is an analog to Palpatine in the PT.

This is because Ben Solo is a protagonist, like Anakin in the PT and unlike Vader in the OT. Now the Prequels are pretty rotten but even George Lucas understood that establishing and developing the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine was an essential part of telling Anakin's story. So on this score, Lucas is a better writer than Rian Johnson.

That said, I entirely agree with your comments decrying midi-chlorians and the forbidden love rule.

As to Luke, keep in mind the words from TFA's opening crawl: "She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy." For some reason, Leia believes Luke is the key to the fight against the FO. Now it's JJ's fault that he didn't explain why she thinks this or what it could mean. But Rian Johnson doesn't get a pass for ignoring it, either. Rian wanted to tell a story about Luke reluctantly accepting his place in legend but the problem is, he was already a legend. Rey and Finn's eyes light up in TFA when they hear about him. Rey approaches him with complete reverence when she finds him on Ach-To at the end of TFA. Again, Leia thinks he is vital to achieving peace in the galaxy. Luke did not need to distract Kylo Ren at the end of TLJ to be a symbol of hope in the galaxy.

And therefore there was no need to present this beloved character as a depressive curmudgeon. I think this is the point Mark Hamill probably tried to make to Rian, which was ignored.

@Peregrine

I completely agree that TLJ got it right on Rey realizing her parents were nobodies. My favorite part of the whole movie, and I think the best part of the movie, is that conversation between her and Ben.

Rey's backstory doesn't have to be X, as in one certain thing. It just needs to be something. Having deadbeat parents that abandoned her is a fine way to dispense with the silly notion that every important character should be related to some other important character. I'm glad she is not the Chosen One because of her parentage but I would still like to know why she's the Chosen One.

I just exalted a Peregrine post. I feel weird.

@Manchu

Have you seen "The Alamo" (2004)? Through out the film David Crockett has to contend with the mantle of "Davy" complicating his life. He shrugs and laughs it off, but you can tell it bothers him. Not until the end after he is captured (I know! I know!) does he come to terms with it. And he accepts his death and his fate as Davy. I think that was the same journey Luke was on. He views the Legend and himself as two different people. And he actively scorns the legend. It isn't until the end he accepts they are the same person.

 Manchu wrote:
@frightnight

"But the Emperor didn't have a backstory!" That has come up about a million times. And it has never mattered. People make this irrelevant point because they see Snoke as an analog to Palpatine in the OT. Wrong. Snoke is an analog to Palpatine in the PT.

This is because Ben Solo is a protagonist, like Anakin in the PT and unlike Vader in the OT. Now the Prequels are pretty rotten but even George Lucas understood that establishing and developing the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine was an essential part of telling Anakin's story. So on this score, Lucas is a better writer than Rian Johnson.

That said, I entirely agree with your comments decrying midi-chlorians and the forbidden love rule.

As to Luke, keep in mind the words from TFA's opening crawl: "She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy." For some reason, Leia believes Luke is the key to the fight against the FO. Now it's JJ's fault that he didn't explain why she thinks this or what it could mean. But Rian Johnson doesn't get a pass for ignoring it, either. Rian wanted to tell a story about Luke reluctantly accepting his place in legend but the problem is, he was already a legend. Rey and Finn's eyes light up in TFA when they hear about him. Rey approaches him with complete reverence when she finds him on Ach-To at the end of TFA. Again, Leia thinks he is vital to achieving peace in the galaxy. Luke did not need to distract Kylo Ren at the end of TLJ to be a symbol of hope in the galaxy.

And therefore there was no need to present this beloved character as a depressive curmudgeon. I think this is the point Mark Hamill probably tried to make to Rian, which was ignored.

Ben Solo is in no way a protagonist, other than the very literal "main character" definition. He murdered his father in cold blood, slaughtered a village of innocents, slaughtered his young classmates, and that's just what he's done on screen. He's at best a tragic villain, whereas Anakin was a tragic hero. Anakin was the hero until his downfall, much like the protagonist in the novel "The Natural" (not the movie). Kylo could be like Vader if he is redeemed, but I kind of hope not because I don't want to see those story beats repeated. I fear that because Abrams is writing 9, however, that I will be disappointed.

Luke has been missing for some time. Yes, he is obviously a legend, but for things he did in the OT. Right now, as the First Order rises, Leia knows that having him by her side will inspire the galaxy to rise up. Doubly so when the FO wipes out the Galactic Senate and the New Republic fleet in one hammer blow. The galaxy needed hope, and the return of the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker would provide that. And, as shown in the last scene, did. The Rebellion will be reborn, and the legend of Luke Skywalker's victorious stand against the might of the First Order will be retold again and again.

On a side note: I really didn't like TFA's crawl. It didn't do anything to set the stage for what happened between the trilogies, which would have been easy to do and answered a ton of audience questions:
"It has been X years since the fall of the EMPIRE. In its place, a NEW REPUBLIC has emerged, where the GALACTIC SENATE struggles to rebuild a war-torn galaxy. Rumors of a new threat, a FIRST ORDER made of the remnants of the Empire's fleet, are whispered, but only a small few believe it exists. A RESISTANCE exists, led by GENERAL LEIA ORGANA, to fight this rising evil."

NOT THAT DIFFICULT TO ANSWER QUESTIONS, JJ. STOP GIVING US POLAR BEARS.

@Crimson Devil

I get the idea of Luke feeling alienated from his past thanks to his failure vis-a-vis Ben. That doesn't change the fact that Luke's actions at the end of TLJ did not make him a symbol of hope; he already was. His acceptance of what was already the case was a personal issue, not relevant to the wider galaxy.

@frightnight

Dude, Ben Solo is obviously a protagonist of this trilogy. This is such a basic point, it would be like trying to convince you that Rey is a protagonist.

You say you don't want to see story beats repeated but you like a film where the jedi knight wants to redeem the dark lord, who in turn offers joining up to rule the galaxy? Where a young jedi goes to a secluded planet to learn from a master who is not what one would expect? Where an overwhelmed group of Rebels desperately try to escape their base when cornered by Imperial walkers?

????

Yes, TFA inadequately explains the intervening years. The trilogy is really a mess and instead of clearing things up it just got messier.

 Manchu wrote:
@Crimson Devil

I get the idea of Luke feeling alienated from his past thanks to his failure vis-a-vis Ben. That doesn't change the fact that Luke's actions at the end of TLJ did not make him a symbol of hope; he already was. His acceptance of what was already the case was a personal issue, not relevant to the wider galaxy.

Yes, it was a personal issue, but as I said, he was a legend for his actions previously. He hasn't been seen in a long while. Keep in mind that TLJ happens mere hours or at most a day or two after TFA. The New Republic and its fleet was just blasted out of existence, the First Order has begun deploying enormous Star Destroyers to pacify newly defenseless and reeling systems, and the only people saying to fight back are this tiny paramilitary force led by Leia Organa. Sure, she's a hero of the Rebellion, but you've got no army and she's not coming to help anytime soon.

No one is going to say, "Man, remember Luke Skywalker? He'd fight them and so should we!" Or if some do, it's not a rallying cry. Luke reemerging to do battle against overwhelming odds at the darkest hour is exactly the symbol of hope the galaxy needs to reignite the spark of Resistance.

@frightnight

Dude, Ben Solo is obviously a protagonist of this trilogy. This is such a basic point, it would be like trying to convince you that Rey is a protagonist.

You say you don't want to see story beats repeated but you like a film where the jedi knight wants to redeem the dark lord, who in turn offers joining up to rule the galaxy? Where a young jedi goes to a secluded planet to learn from a master who is not what one would expect? Where an overwhelmed group of Rebels desperately try to escape their base when cornered by Imperial walkers?

????

Yes, TFA inadequately explains the intervening years. The trilogy is really a mess and instead of clearing things up it just got messier.

I'm sorry, I was assuming you meant "protagonist" in the common meaning of "hero" and not "character whose choices drive the story". Kylo certainly is the latter there.

However, to further refute your earlier points, while you are correct that the Anakin/Palpatine relationship is necessary in the trilogy, that is because the story there is one of Anakin's corruption and seduction, culminating in his transformation into Vader and murdering his wife. This is not the story of Kylo and Snoke; Kylo is already corrupted, and their relationship is that of Emperor and Vader. If anything we're tuning in to Kylo's story at the point where Anakin wipes out the Separatists and then kills Padme. Snoke's backstory is completely irrelevant to Kylo's arc, he is the master that Kylo has grown beyond.

For your most recent point, yes, because the resolution of those beats is entirely different. Remember in my initial post I talked about subverting tropes? Yes, in the most broad sense it shares story beats with Empire and Return, but in this one the Dark Lord is not redeemed, and the only good in his heart is what Rey fools herself into thinking is there. (I will grant some leeway towards his love of his mother, but when it comes down to it Kylo always goes dark side with anything else) The young jedit-to-be goes to a secluded planet to train, but instead of finding a master she finds an angry old man out to end the Order. Thank the Force she already knew how to fight! And yes, superficially the walkers on the "snow" was similar to Hoth, but that's intentional again; this is not an airspeeder vs walker duel delaying battle while they evacuate, they are cornered, using (to quote the designers) "pieces of crap" to try to stop the cannon, they fail, and then they are going to die.

TLJ completely upends the expectations of those story beats, which is a part of why I love it.

As you say, TFA ended mere hours before the beginning of TLJ. We see that Luke is an inspiring hero in TFA. This isn't going to change in a few hours time, in TLJ. How do Luke's actions on Crait amount to a propaganda coup for the Resistance? There is no difference between what they could say about Luke before and after, at least as far as it would matter to neutral third parties (i.e., prospective recruits and supporters). Well, that's not entirely true. Things are actually worse afterward because now there can't be some promise that Luke Skywalker will come back to help them. It already happened; he died as a result. The very best effort of this legend saved the dozen or so Resistance survivors. Not exactly as impressive as blowing up Starkiller Base, is it? If anything will convince people the FO can be resisted it's destroying their super weapon immediately after it was used. So we see how Luke was irrelevant to the wider action of TLJ. His main contribution was persuading Rey that ... wait no he didn't persuade Rey of anything. Well, how about the fact that he convinced Kylo Ren that ... nope, nothing there either. It's almost like Mark Hamill was right about this movie ...

Yes, Anakin's arc was falling to the dark side. Just like Kylo Ren's (potential) arc is "falling" to the light side. In both cases, we need to know things about the characters that stand in for light and darkness, and our protagonists' relationships to those characters. For Anakin, it is Palpatine on one hand and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the other. For Ben Solo, it is Snoke on one hand and Han, Luke, and ultimately Rey on the other.

Voss wrote:

Skaorn wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If people are rating ROTS 1/10 and lower than TPM and ROTC, they’re clearly talking utter bollocks.

It was the fight scene. It was probably the one thing in the movie everyone wanted since RotJ and was better than previous ones. It also was between actors and not CGI creations like cracked out Yoda or Grievous. I probably rank it higher for that alone. Also I've forgiven Lucas at this point. He's a special effects guy, not a writer or director, and CGI was the big new thing. As someone who did a lot of pioneering in FX, it's not that surprising he went down that rabbit hole. Also look up his daughter in her part in TPM. It's pretty obvs who he was making the movies for.

More fat checks from toy companies?

If you're suggesting Lucas' nonsense (provoked by bad reviews) about how a convoluted corporate takeover plot with endless yammering about galactic politicking was aimed at children, I'm just going to snicker.

Or, GASP, he might have been making movies for his two youngest kids. His daughter, who was one of the many kids surround young Anakin in his pod before the race, was about 11 at the time of TPM's release. His son, who wasn't in it, was 6. Is it honestly so hard to believe that George Lucas maybe, just maybe, made the prequels for his young kids and not for money or to ruin your specific childhood.

@Lance, if you don't remember where you started on the Han line and we're in agreement there I think we're cool.

Agree to disagree on the rest I guess and fair play to you *thumbs up*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To address the current line of discussion I find most interesting (Luke) I was supremely disappointed in his ending.


His last act of inspiration was an illusion. He didn't survive a laser barrage from the FO and he isn't even alive anymore.


If the galaxy was inspired by that then either knowing the truth will disappoint them, more than crushing whatever morale gains were made OR they would have rallied to the cause anyway.

The way I see it the FO is more completely in control of the galaxy at the end of the movie than the beginning, slave kid doll reenactments of illusions notwithstanding.

Pretty much every problem from the prequels stems from Lucas' relative inexperience/ out of practice. He handn't made a movie since RotJ. Leading him to make errors in directing and writing.
If you look into the OT, it took his wife and another editor changing a lot to make the movies work properly.

There are good ideas in there, they are just buried in badly written dialogue and tedious storytelling.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Probably Holdo, ordering a frontal assault against a fleet of star destroyers, that's just stupidity of the highest order.

Actually it's a brilliant strategy. You trade a few expendable bombers for a massive capital ship, that's a massive victory for the resistance. Who cares if they all die, you still killed way more than the bombers cost. Send in the next wave of bombers against the next capital ship, and repeat until the First Order's fleet is wiped out. The stupidity is people weeping about the fact that people die in war and fighter pilots are expendable munitions (something Poe seems to understand very clearly) instead of building up a lot more bombers and winning the war.

Usually yes - if you have any kind of support and logistics, any kind of functioning military structure...

Remember that the entire Republic military were overwhelmed in a day and they apparently have no prospect or resupply or reinforcements - that's the main issue - there is no resistance to speak off, just a bunch of idiots in some clapped out ships.

If that's all the Resistance has and all it's ever GOING to have, then the Resistance is doomed and might as well make a stand and go down fighting here, to weaken the New Order and inspire someone else - maybe the Corporate Sector, maybe the Hapan Cluster, who knows who else might be out there - to finish the job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As was said, who knew if they'd get another crack at the Dreadnought?

It was there, and they were in a position to take it out.

More to the point, if they HADN'T killed the Dreadnaught, it would have killed them in very short order.

I just think the prequels were unnecessary.

One way to look at the prequels is to ask yourself what problem with the Star Wars story they are intended to solve.

Clearly the original trilogy works wonderfully well without the prequels, so there was no problem.

Lucas made them as an indulgence to himself because he had come to conceive of Star Wars as a mighty saga spanning generations. It wasn't in the beginning, and it didn't need to be. Maybe he was trying to rival Coppola's The Godfather series.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
OK< so it's worse than Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.

Even Plan 9 From Outer Space has it's fans. That doesn't make it a good movie; indeed it's widely regarded as one of the worst movies of all times and not just by critics.

It's one of the films that falls into the "so bad it's good" category.

The Tim Burton biopic on Ed Wood starring Jonny Depp is really good, genuinely good.

 Manchu wrote:
One of the biggest TLJ fans on DakkaDakka is speculating ITT as to which main cast member Rey is related. Just like back when TFA came out. He loved TLJ but is looking forward to JJ returning to fix Rian's mishandling of Rey. Regardless of whether you agree with that POV, it's a great example of how TLJ did not "wipe out" the mystery boxes - even for people who loved the movie. It sure as hell did not move the narrative forward. If Snoke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Snoke doesn't matter. If Luke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Luke doesn't matter. If Rey's background is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then revealing that Rey has no background doesn't matter.

And if nothing about the movie matters, why even bother making it and why make me pay to watch it?

I guess that's the ultimate reason I don't like it. Nothing matters. It makes me NOT care about what comes next because nothing matters.

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by Luke being irrelevant, he is the symbol of hope that the galaxy needed to defy the First Order. He is so depressed and despondent at the beginning that he sarcastically quips, "You think what? I’m gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?” and yet that is exactly what he does at the end, and the symbol of doing so cements him into legend as shown by the children recounting that to each other with their action figures.

Is that the slave children that they left in favour of releasing some toy friendly space horses - go Resistance.

Is that the galaxy that did nt even bother to stick one finger up to the rebels cos no one cared enough to even reply to their last ditch message of hope.

I did wonder that given the sheer incompetence of the rebels that everyone was quite happy to see them go - they all managed to do everything wrong for no reason and only lasted as long as they did in the Chase of Tedium due to the Directors conceit and the near equal stupidity of the First Order command.

Idiots fighting Idiots - I bet everyone hoped they would exterminate each other and let them get on with life.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
One of the biggest TLJ fans on DakkaDakka is speculating ITT as to which main cast member Rey is related. Just like back when TFA came out. He loved TLJ but is looking forward to JJ returning to fix Rian's mishandling of Rey. Regardless of whether you agree with that POV, it's a great example of how TLJ did not "wipe out" the mystery boxes - even for people who loved the movie. It sure as hell did not move the narrative forward. If Snoke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Snoke doesn't matter. If Luke is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then killing Luke doesn't matter. If Rey's background is irrelevant, as TLJ insists, then revealing that Rey has no background doesn't matter.

And if nothing about the movie matters, why even bother making it and why make me pay to watch it?

I guess that's the ultimate reason I don't like it. Nothing matters. It makes me NOT care about what comes next because nothing matters.

I have DM'd for pen&paper rpg's for many years. I always start a campaign by asking my players to write a backstory for their character. About 80% of them are orphans born to unimportant parents. There is a reason for it. It's easy. It's really the easiest backstory to write. It's a blank slate. Zero past, zero need to think and create an actual story, plus it gives you the green light to do anything and follow any alignment.

Just because it is easy, it does not mean it's good writing. Making Rey an orphan from unimportant parents does not somehow "break the mold" of SW lore and is not a brave new move in a different direction. It's easy and sloppy writing where the writer looks to get a free pass having spent as little effort as possible.

The four main reasons I'm not keen on the sequels are

1. The plots are so similar to episodes 4 and 5

2. They made Han and Luke look bad, and killed them off pretty quickly.

3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman

4. I don't care at all about Finn, can't stand Poe or Rose Tico, and am largely indifferent to Rey. I quite like Kylo Ren. Who do I want to win if Han, Luke and Leia are gone (who should have been the main characters) and I don't like the protagonists?

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
The four main reasons I'm not keen on the sequels are

1. The plots are so similar to episodes 4 and 5

2. They made Han and Luke look bad, and killed them off pretty quickly.

3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman

4. I don't care at all about Finn, can't stand Poe or Rose Tico, and am largely indifferent to Rey. I quite like Kylo Ren. Who do I want to win if Han, Luke and Leia are gone (who should have been the main characters) and I don't like the protagonists?

I am 50% sold on the purple haired woman. A commander does not need to explain the reasoning of his/her commands to a captain or a lieutenant. they just give the order. The reasoning stays with the commander, otherwise they will be second-guessed by everyone. A very appropriate answer to Poe's stubborness would be "This is a direct order". Either he obeys or he disobeys and goes to the brig (or gets shot because he disobeys a direct order at a time of war). What the woman does not sell to me at all is the fact that she did not actually have a plan at all. If your plan is "let's keep getting chased until a miracle happens" then you are a gakky commander and you would never be qualified to hold the helm. The second most qualified person in the resistance did not even have a plan? And these people survive still?

Also, once Poe becomes a mutineer and gets caught he should be 100% executed for mutiny at a time of war. The fact that he lives, and most importantly, the condescending moment of the two women "awww isn't he cute? I like him", as if your captain -and most decorated soldier- is a flipping lab puppy completely kills the purple haired woman for me.

Yes but Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn" not The Caine Mutiny.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Yes but Star Wars is a "rollicking space yarn" not The Caine Mutiny.

If BSG could do it in space, then Star Wars should be able to do it in space. I don't want a full blown and developed military system, just make it so it feels like these people are aware that they are actually under enemy fire the very moment we are speaking about. Instead they behave like they are on a field trip.