Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?

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**Kilkrazy**

Why should Star Wars copy BSG? BSG has done BSG (and fans ended up disliking it.)

There were 7 Star Wars films without a half-blown, under-developed military system. Suddenly it's a problem there isn't one in no.8.

**topaxygouroun i**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Why should Star Wars copy BSG? BSG has done BSG (and fans ended up disliking it.)

There were 7 Star Wars films without a half-blown, under-developed military system. Suddenly it's a problem there isn't one in no.8.

I disagree. Prequels did not have it because there was no war. A republic with peacekeepers and no tangible enemy gives no reason to hold a strong military -or if there is one, there is no reason to show it. So those are out. Even then, you can see the army of the clones operating like, you know, an army. 4,5,6 have perfectly nicely formed military factions, with ranking and actual planning. Nobody goes around doing stupid things because they feel like it, except perhaps Luke. however Luke is not part of the resistance army (ie he is not enlisted), he is basically a free agent so he does not count. Rogue one belongs in the same category as TLJ - Jyn Erso is the daughter of a person of significance to the enemy and somehow she's allowed to speak to the table instead of being in the brig and being interrogated. Then she commandeers a ship and leaves with volunteers and nobody stops her. But Rogue one was a spinoff so it doesn't bother me this much. In TFA the rebel army actually works like an army, actually coming to save the day in Maz Kanata's planet based on valid information, and the commander knows wtf to do.

And I don't buy that the fans disliked BSG.

**Peregrine**

Snake Tortoise wrote:
3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman.

Again with this nonsense. The movies (and their flaws) are exactly the same if those characters are white men. Complaining about "liberal politics" just because there are characters who aren't white men is why people comment on how criticism is motivated by sexism/racism/etc.

**Kilkrazy**

As far as I can see, in TLJ the Rebel army/space force defends itself against the New Order attack using tactics to cover their retreat, then is surprised by the hyperspace tracking, loses a lot of its leadership, and manages to formulate a new plan to cope with the changed situation.

It's not The Battle of the River Plate, but it's hardly a complete absence of organisation.

**Formosa**

Peregrine wrote:
Snake Tortoise wrote:
3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman.

Again with this nonsense. The movies (and their flaws) are exactly the same if those characters are white men. Complaining about "liberal politics" just because there are characters who aren't white men is why people comment on how criticism is motivated by sexism/racism/etc.

Are they exactly the same? Or was the issue further compounded by their obvious choice to place a woman in the role to seem “inclusive”, yes the character would have still sucked arse if it was a man, but why did they

A: choose to make it a woman with clear feminist overtones
B: choose to make her “purple haired” to fit that stereotype

During the costume, script and casting stages they clearly wanted to express this path they have chosen, why?
The simple answer is they wanted to seem progressive, the complicated answer sadly we will never know for sure.

**Kilkrazy**

What's wrong with a progressive female character?

**Formosa**

Kilkrazy wrote:
As far as I can see, in TLJ the Rebel army/space force defends itself against the New Order attack using tactics to cover their retreat, then is surprised by the hyperspace tracking, loses a lot of its leadership, and manages to formulate a new plan to cope with the changed situation.

It's not The Battle of the River Plate, but it's hardly a complete absence of organisation.

Having served with the military and continuing to work with them to this day, it’s a clear lack of organisation to me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
What's wrong with a progressive female character?

Implementation, look at Wonder Woman, good implementation, I wanted beaten over the head with “progressive politics” that was so thinly veiled it hurt, Wonder Woman was a strong female character, good actress, and good ish story, when done right the story takes the for so you either don’t notice as much or it doesn’t matter, because you were entertained, Star Wars isn’t that.

**Peregrine**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Rogue one belongs in the same category as TLJ - Jyn Erso is the daughter of a person of significance to the enemy and somehow she's allowed to speak to the table instead of being in the brig and being interrogated. Then she commandeers a ship and leaves with volunteers and nobody stops her.

Why would she be in the brig being interrogated? She didn't commit any crimes against the rebellion, she wasn't working for the enemy, and she was perfectly happy to fight as an ally (even if she disagreed with their strategy). And of course nobody stops her when she steals the ship, did you miss the fact that half the rebellion wants to fight? The "yes, all as I have planned" smile from Mon Mothma when she hears that Raddus has told the peace faction to go

themselves and taken his fleet to Scarif?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:
A: choose to make it a woman with clear feminist overtones

What clear feminist overtones? Other than "not being a white man" nothing she says or does is even vaguely related to feminism.

B: choose to make her “purple haired” to fit that stereotype

Because this is Star Wars, a setting full of aliens and weird fashion choices and such? If "people dye their hair weird colors" is the extent of the supposed feminist invasion of Star Wars, well, I think the weakness of that argument speaks for itself.

**ingtaer**

Kilkrazy wrote:
As far as I can see, in TLJ the Rebel army/space force defends itself against the New Order attack using tactics to cover their retreat, then is surprised by the hyperspace tracking, loses a lot of its leadership, and manages to formulate a new plan to cope with the changed situation.

It's not The Battle of the River Plate, but it's hardly a complete absence of organisation.

Damn that's a good reference, they should do a SW film on that. What prize snowballs now!

**Snake Tortoise**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Snake Tortoise wrote:
The four main reasons I'm not keen on the sequels are

1. The plots are so similar to episodes 4 and 5

2. They made Han and Luke look bad, and killed them off pretty quickly.

3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman

4. I don't care at all about Finn, can't stand Poe or Rose Tico, and am largely indifferent to Rey. I quite like Kylo Ren. Who do I want to win if Han, Luke and Leia are gone (who should have been the main characters) and I don't like the protagonists?

I am 50% sold on the purple haired woman. A commander does not need to explain the reasoning of his/her commands to a captain or a lieutenant. they just give the order. The reasoning stays with the commander, otherwise they will be second-guessed by everyone. A very appropriate answer to Poe's stubborness would be "This is a direct order". Either he obeys or he disobeys and goes to the brig (or gets shot because he disobeys a direct order at a time of war). What the woman does not sell to me at all is the fact that she did not actually have a plan at all. If your plan is "let's keep getting chased until a miracle happens" then you are a gakky commander and you would never be qualified to hold the helm. The second most qualified person in the resistance did not even have a plan? And these people survive still?

Also, once Poe becomes a mutineer and gets caught he should be 100% executed for mutiny at a time of war. The fact that he lives, and most importantly, the condescending moment of the two women "awww isn't he cute? I like him", as if your captain -and most decorated soldier- is a flipping lab puppy completely kills the purple haired woman for me.

I completely agree

**Kilkrazy**

ingtaer wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
As far as I can see, in TLJ the Rebel army/space force defends itself against the New Order attack using tactics to cover their retreat, then is surprised by the hyperspace tracking, loses a lot of its leadership, and manages to formulate a new plan to cope with the changed situation.

It's not The Battle of the River Plate, but it's hardly a complete absence of organisation.

Damn that's a good reference, they should do a SW film on that. What prize snowballs now!

633 Squadron was on TV last Saturday (UK south-east area.) It's a long time since I've sen the film, so it was nearly like watching it with fresh eyes. In the final battle the Mosquitoes have to fly along a narrow fjord through a storm of flak and enemy fighters to hit a precise point on the cliff to create a rock avalanche to destroy the German's rocket fuel plant.

It struck me that the Death Star trench scene in ANH is pretty much modelled on it.

**Earth127**

Holdo is designed as a foilfor Poe. Rian Johnson clearly follows old fashioned protagonist/antagonist centered writing.

Poe is brash jump in the field blow-em-up aggresive character. Wich contrasts sharply with Holdo's more demure, almost too calm, slow and steady wins the race.

Poe is admonished for jumping the gun and ignoring Leia's order to pull back. Not Holdo's orders, Leia's. Yes he took out the dreadnought at the cost of his entire squadron of bombers. If Holdo's design and mannerisms were more traditionally macho. Poe would probably have simply trusted her. So her character design is meant to fool the audience as well as Poe into thinking he has to act. We're ,at least early on, supposed to sympathise with Poe not Holdo. Even tough Holdo in the end turns out to be in the right more than Poe.

And anyone trying to tell me not sharing enough of your plan that depends on absolute secrecy is a sin equal to mutiny. I am going to politely entirely, disagree with you.

Interesting realityis unrealistic tidbit: In the heyday of the britsch royal navy they trained every crewmember (from captians to sailors) to remain excessively calm in all situations. Including chases that dragged out over days.

**Formosa**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Snake Tortoise wrote:
The four main reasons I'm not keen on the sequels are

1. The plots are so similar to episodes 4 and 5

2. They made Han and Luke look bad, and killed them off pretty quickly.

3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman

4. I don't care at all about Finn, can't stand Poe or Rose Tico, and am largely indifferent to Rey. I quite like Kylo Ren. Who do I want to win if Han, Luke and Leia are gone (who should have been the main characters) and I don't like the protagonists?

I am 50% sold on the purple haired woman. A commander does not need to explain the reasoning of his/her commands to a captain or a lieutenant. they just give the order. The reasoning stays with the commander, otherwise they will be second-guessed by everyone. A very appropriate answer to Poe's stubborness would be "This is a direct order". Either he obeys or he disobeys and goes to the brig (or gets shot because he disobeys a direct order at a time of war). What the woman does not sell to me at all is the fact that she did not actually have a plan at all. If your plan is "let's keep getting chased until a miracle happens" then you are a gakky commander and you would never be qualified to hold the helm. The second most qualified person in the resistance did not even have a plan? And these people survive still?

Also, once Poe becomes a mutineer and gets caught he should be 100% executed for mutiny at a time of war. The fact that he lives, and most importantly, the condescending moment of the two women "awww isn't he cute? I like him", as if your captain -and most decorated soldier- is a flipping lab puppy completely kills the purple haired woman for me.

Command staff are killed, first thing a competent commander does is gather their highest ranking surviving members and forms a new command staff, second is a debrief/brief to work out what needs to be done and then with ALL available information they make a decision, the command staff is aware of what needs to be done as they have helped formulate the plan.

I use this film as a good example in my lessons of how “not” to do it when it comes to command decisions.

**Future War Cultist**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It struck me that the Death Star trench scene in ANH is pretty much modelled on it.

Well it is an almost complete copy of the Dam Busters in that regard.

**A Town Called Malus**

Formosa wrote:

Command staff are killed, first thing a competent commander does is gather their highest ranking surviving members and forms a new command staff, second is a debrief/brief to work out what needs to be done and then with ALL available information they make a decision, the command staff is aware of what needs to be done as they have helped formulate the plan.

I use this film as a good example in my lessons of how “not” to do it when it comes to command decisions.

Which Holdo did. Poe was no longer part of the command staff due to his demotion for disobeying a direct order. He just continues to act as if he is.

**Formosa**

Earth127 wrote:
Holdo is designed as a foilfor Poe. Rian Johnson clearly follows old fashioned protagonist/antagonist centered writing.

Poe is brash jump in the field blow-em-up aggresive character. Wich contrasts sharply with Holdo's more demure, almost too calm, slow and steady wins the race.

Poe is admonished for jumping the gun and ignoring Leia's order to pull back. Not Holdo's orders, Leia's. Yes he took out the dreadnought at the cost of his entire squadron of bombers. If Holdo's design and mannerisms were more traditionally macho. Poe would probably have simply trusted her. So her character design is meant to fool the audience as well as Poe into thinking he has to act. We're ,at least early on, supposed to sympathise with Poe not Holdo. Even tough Holdo in the end turns out to be in the right more than Poe.

And anyone trying to tell me not sharing enough of your plan that depends on absolute secrecy is a sin equal to mutiny. I am going to politely entirely, disagree with you.

Interesting realityis unrealistic tidbit: In the heyday of the britsch royal navy they trained every crewmember (from captians to sailors) to remain excessively calm in all situations. Including chases that dragged out over days.

You can politely disagree but you are wrong, both are dealt with based upon context of the crime in question, light mutiny will get you time in military prison where as withholding vital information in a time of war, dependent on the information and the impact it has had, let’s say the destruction of the entire military infrastructure, would get you put away for life if you are lucky, and if the military organisation has the death penalty ... your up for a firing squad.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Formosa wrote:

Command staff are killed, first thing a competent commander does is gather their highest ranking surviving members and forms a new command staff, second is a debrief/brief to work out what needs to be done and then with ALL available information they make a decision, the command staff is aware of what needs to be done as they have helped formulate the plan.

I use this film as a good example in my lessons of how “not” to do it when it comes to command decisions.

Which Holdo did. Poe was no longer part of the command staff due to his demotion for disobeying a direct order. He just continues to act as if he is.

That’s not how it works, so yet another glaring error from that film, also he was busted down to LT, so yes, still part of command structure as still a commissioned officer.

**Kilkrazy**

It's hard to understand why the Department of Defense accepted TLJ for the West Point advanced staff training program.

**Formosa**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It's hard to understand why the Department of Defense accepted TLJ for the West Point advanced staff training program.

M.O.D, and showing a bit of Star Wars in a lesson is a really good way of waking everyone up from death by PowerPoint, you play the clips and ask the students what they saw that was wrong and what they saw that was correct, for example when doing cover and concealment they used to show us monty pythons “how not to hide” which gets everyone laughing and wakes them up a bit, injects a bit of morale into what would otherwise be pretty dull (just the power point stuff)

**sirlynchmob**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Snake Tortoise wrote:
The four main reasons I'm not keen on the sequels are

1. The plots are so similar to episodes 4 and 5

2. They made Han and Luke look bad, and killed them off pretty quickly.

3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman

4. I don't care at all about Finn, can't stand Poe or Rose Tico, and am largely indifferent to Rey. I quite like Kylo Ren. Who do I want to win if Han, Luke and Leia are gone (who should have been the main characters) and I don't like the protagonists?

I am 50% sold on the purple haired woman. A commander does not need to explain the reasoning of his/her commands to a captain or a lieutenant. they just give the order. The reasoning stays with the commander, otherwise they will be second-guessed by everyone. A very appropriate answer to Poe's stubborness would be "This is a direct order". Either he obeys or he disobeys and goes to the brig (or gets shot because he disobeys a direct order at a time of war). What the woman does not sell to me at all is the fact that she did not actually have a plan at all. If your plan is "let's keep getting chased until a miracle happens" then you are a gakky commander and you would never be qualified to hold the helm. The second most qualified person in the resistance did not even have a plan? And these people survive still?

Also, once Poe becomes a mutineer and gets caught he should be 100% executed for mutiny at a time of war. The fact that he lives, and most importantly, the condescending moment of the two women "awww isn't he cute? I like him", as if your captain -and most decorated soldier- is a flipping lab puppy completely kills the purple haired woman for me.

I've said it many times before, a good commander does explain the reasons, especially when they're expected to abandon ship. If you don't tell your crew the plan, when it needs their participation for it to work, it's doomed to fail. to abandon a ship that size would have needed everyone on board to help out, the pilots should have all been stocking the transports, and needed to know where to fly the ships to. Why weren't the pilots and poe ordered to do pre flight checks on the transports? checking supplies? helping load equipment? because holdo is a horrible leader, who did not seem to have a plan to get the crew off the ship.

Also her plan didn't account for the first order to show up as soon as it did, another failure in her planning.

I also agree with the list, but for #4, I liked finn in TFA, it's a shame he went from having an interesting story arc to comedy relief and sidekick.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
Snake Tortoise wrote:
3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman.

Again with this nonsense. The movies (and their flaws) are exactly the same if those characters are white men. Complaining about "liberal politics" just because there are characters who aren't white men is why people comment on how criticism is motivated by sexism/racism/etc.

see this is why we can't have nice things complaining about the messages and horrible roles, does not equate to complaining about non white men. I suppose those who hated jarjar were xenophobes? those who hated anikin (christensen) are sexists? No, some roles just draw hatred, not because of who played them, but because of how the character acted. Hating rose, is no different than hating on anikin, or hating on cersei. She deserves to die, or does not liking her inherently sexists? her character is there to be hated she's playing the role of "bad person". his criticisms were not motivated by sexism, your defense of them is.

The whole story seemed to be backed by peta. free the poor race track animals, even though it's star wars so they're all chipped and captured the next day. chewie doesn't eat the porg, which is a waste of good meat especially since it's already dead and cooked. the military industrial complex profits off from wars. Holdo was a wretched character and there's not a man, woman or child that could have made that character likeable to me. Rose was only in the film as a token character to appeal to the Chinese market, that's the sexism, not from the fans, but by lucasarts. That's why her character is so bland and lifeless, she was added as an afterthought.

and who let the hippies in? nothing matters? Our pasts don't matter, just forget it and let it die?

**topaxygouroun i**

What's wrong with a progressive female character?

Nothing whatsoever, but they need to have a development arc. Granted, Holdo's screen time was too little to justify a character arc or background story. but she came into the universe out of nowhere and then she became second in command in an instant, forcing the screenwriters to give us mandatory exposition to find out how badass she was.

Solution: Use this one, only older:

First of all, they did use her in Rogue One and nobody complained, and two, she would not need any sort of exposition or backstory or forced renown to step up and claim the command, even if I don't personally know her name.

Holdo falls into the same trap that Rey does in a sense: She comes out of nowhere and she's just good because she is. Well I'm sorry, that's not good enough.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Snake Tortoise wrote:
The four main reasons I'm not keen on the sequels are

1. The plots are so similar to episodes 4 and 5

2. They made Han and Luke look bad, and killed them off pretty quickly.

3. The liberal politics forced into the films turns my stomach. I hate Rose Tico and that awful purple haired woman

4. I don't care at all about Finn, can't stand Poe or Rose Tico, and am largely indifferent to Rey. I quite like Kylo Ren. Who do I want to win if Han, Luke and Leia are gone (who should have been the main characters) and I don't like the protagonists?

I am 50% sold on the purple haired woman. A commander does not need to explain the reasoning of his/her commands to a captain or a lieutenant. they just give the order. The reasoning stays with the commander, otherwise they will be second-guessed by everyone. A very appropriate answer to Poe's stubborness would be "This is a direct order". Either he obeys or he disobeys and goes to the brig (or gets shot because he disobeys a direct order at a time of war). What the woman does not sell to me at all is the fact that she did not actually have a plan at all. If your plan is "let's keep getting chased until a miracle happens" then you are a gakky commander and you would never be qualified to hold the helm. The second most qualified person in the resistance did not even have a plan? And these people survive still?

Also, once Poe becomes a mutineer and gets caught he should be 100% executed for mutiny at a time of war. The fact that he lives, and most importantly, the condescending moment of the two women "awww isn't he cute? I like him", as if your captain -and most decorated soldier- is a flipping lab puppy completely kills the purple haired woman for me.

I've said it many times before, a good commander does explain the reasons, especially when they're expected to abandon ship. If you don't tell your crew the plan, when it needs their participation for it to work, it's doomed to fail. to abandon a ship that size would have needed everyone on board to help out, the pilots should have all been stocking the transports, and needed to know where to fly the ships to. Why weren't the pilots and poe ordered to do pre flight checks on the transports? checking supplies? helping load equipment? because holdo is a horrible leader, who did not seem to have a plan to get the crew off the ship.

I'm going to make a leap of faith and assume you were not in the military. A good commander NEVER explains his reasoning. He gives orders, he builds routines so that his officers know what to do in every given situation, but the question WHY he decides as he does is for him and him alone. Otherwise discipline goes to the dustbin and every single soldier thinks they can be a commander. If there is a need to abandon ship, a routine with actions on how to abandon the ship is already rolled out and rehearsed a hundrend times before. But the reason why do we need to abandon ship, the soldiers/lieutenants/captains have no reason or right to know.

Holdo did this part correctly. Poe was all about "what the heck lady, whyyyyyy" and she was like "because I'm the commander and that's my order". Perfect response there.

Holdo failed many other parts of being a commander, though. Even if the first Order ambushed her, her plan was to stay put and wait for a miracle. She was a priestess, not a war commander.

**dogma**

AndrewGPaul wrote:

So are the Volkswagen up! and the Bugatti Veyron, but I don't think someone who commutes to work regularly in an up! is going to fling the Veyronround the Nürburgring in under eight minutes.

That's not really a fair analogy. Someone who commutes in an Up! isn't flying through beggars canyon; bulls-eyeing womp rats. A better analogy would be a tuner who regularly takes his low-end, but still impressive, ride out to the track graduating to Veyron. Yeah, he'll have to adapt to paddle shifting, and get a feel for the car as a whole, but he isn't starting at 0.

AndrewGPaul wrote:

OK, so the controls are similar - except, one assumes, those for the deflectors, astromech interface and weapon targeting systems. The handling will be massively different (the centre of mass, moments of inertia and the layout of the engines is different) and of course, he's flying the X-Wing IN SPACE! Basically, that line is to distract us from watching Luke use magic powers to somehow become the best pilot in Red Squadron.

The Astromech interface is Luke verbally telling R2 to do something, the adaptation to the targeting system is probably not that different from the adaptation to paddle shifting, and Star Wars space is not distinct from Star Wars atmospheres.

Also, Luke isn't the best pilot in Red Squadron, just the luckiest. Vader has him dead to rights until Han shows up and saves his ass.

**Peregrine**

dogma wrote:
A better analogy would be a tuner who regularly takes his low-end, but still impressive, ride out to the track graduating to Veyron.

No, a better analogy would be a real-world pilot with experience in civilian aircraft trying to fly a high-performance fighter jet with little/no training. And there's a nice list of accident reports demonstrating why the FAA no longer allows this to happen. In one case the pilot couldn't even get the jet off the ground, ran off the end of the runway, and killed a bunch of people. The idea that Luke could survive basic flying in an x-wing with no prior training is questionable. The idea that he could fly in combat against trained Imperial pilots, including Vader, and do anything but die immediately is insane. Luke does it because he's the protagonist, not because it is realistic.

Vader has him dead to rights until Han shows up and saves his ass.

Only after he was able to evade and survive much longer than anyone else.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Even if the first Order ambushed her, her plan was to stay put and wait for a miracle.

No, the plan was to break the pursuit, take a defensive position, and hold out until their allies can get into the fight. That's not a miracle, it's a reasonable outcome to expect. The plan only fails because the plot requires it to fail.

(Now, refusing to communicate it is pretty stupid, but the plan itself was fine.)

A good commander NEVER explains his reasoning. He gives orders, he builds routines so that his officers know what to do in every given situation, but the question WHY he decides as he does is for him and him alone.

That sounds like a great idea to have the kind of battle that makes the list of top military failures. A commander who insists on unquestioning authority and never involves their subordinates in planning is just begging to have a plan with flaws that a second opinion might have caught.

**Kilkrazy**

It doesn't matter what training or experience Luke may have had in a crop-duster aircraft (SW equivalent of.)

He's the hero and therefore will save the day, by some combination of skill and luck.

This is because Star Wars is a rollicking space yarn, not a guide manual for how to train in air-to-ground rocket attacks.

**Peregrine**

sirlynchmob wrote:
see this is why we can't have nice things complaining about the messages and horrible roles, does not equate to complaining about non white men.

If you complain about "liberal politics" involving characters who had nothing to do with liberal politics, other than not being white men, yeah, it really does equate. That doesn't make other complaints (like Rose having way too much knowledge of secret hyperspace tracking technology) invalid, but if that's the complaint you choose to make then it's obvious what the motivation is.

chewie doesn't eat the porg, which is a waste of good meat especially since it's already dead and cooked.

You realize that's a comedy moment, right? Having him eat the porg isn't funny. Having it make sad eyes at him and watching him throw away his dinner is funny. Therefore that's what happens. It has nothing to do with anti-meat politics or anything.

Rose was only in the film as a token character to appeal to the Chinese market, that's the sexism, not from the fans, but by lucasarts. That's why her character is so bland and lifeless, she was added as an afterthought.

And this is why you are getting an accusation of racism/sexism. You assume that because a character is not a white man it must be a token to appeal to the Chinese market. It can't be that they just liked her audition better than the competition, it can't be that the character was poorly written regardless of race/gender, it must be tokenism. And you assume that because you don't like the character she must have been an afterthought, despite her being a focus of large parts of the movie.

**topaxygouroun i**

A good commander NEVER explains his reasoning. He gives orders, he builds routines so that his officers know what to do in every given situation, but the question WHY he decides as he does is for him and him alone.

That sounds like a great idea to have the kind of battle that makes the list of top military failures. A commander who insists on unquestioning authority and never involves their subordinates in planning is just begging to have a plan with flaws that a second opinion might have caught.

Poe is a captain? (or a lieutenant? Can't remember). Regardless. He is not a general. He is not a Colonel. He's not a Major. In business terms, he's a line manager for his soldiers, or even worse than that, a very badass engineer. He is not a member of the board of directors. He has no reason whatsoever to know or question the decisions of his command.

**dogma**

Peregrine wrote:

No, a better analogy would be a real-world pilot with experience in civilian aircraft trying to fly a high-performance fighter jet with little/no training. And there's a nice list of accident reports demonstrating why the FAA no longer allows this to happen. In one case the pilot couldn't even get the jet off the ground, ran off the end of the runway, and killed a bunch of people. The idea that Luke could survive basic flying in an x-wing with no prior training is questionable. The idea that he could fly in combat against trained Imperial pilots, including Vader, and do anything but die immediately is insane. Luke does it because he's the protagonist, not because it is realistic.

Of course it isn't realistic, it's Star Wars; nothing is realistic. What needs to established is plausibility, not realism. And yes, it is plausible that Luke could do what he did. This isn't the real world, this a world in which people can own and self-maintain heavily armed spaceships. Hell, Luke's civilian
T-16 obviously had a gun of some type.

Peregrine wrote:

Only after he was able to evade and survive much longer than anyone else.

He's not even in the action until the trench run.

**Peregrine**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It doesn't matter what training or experience Luke may have had in a crop-duster aircraft (SW equivalent of.)

He's the hero and therefore will save the day, by some combination of skill and luck.

This is because Star Wars is a rollicking space yarn, not a guide manual for how to train in air-to-ground rocket attacks.

It matters if you're going to accuse Rey of being a Mary Sue. Luke does the same thing with pulling unrealistic skills out of nowhere because his status as the protagonist requires it, so either both characters are Mary Sue or neither is. If you hold them to different standards you're guilty of either having a biased view of the movies you're nostalgic for or sexism in judging a female character more harshly than male equivalents.

And your constant insistence that nothing matters because Star Wars is mindless fiction is getting really annoying. I get it, your ideal movie is a CGI artist's demo reel, but for most people a movie has to be plausible for it to be worth watching. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far, if a movie is full of unrealistic nonsense after bad writing after blatant Mary Sue-ism then it isn't enjoyable, no matter how much of a CGI budget it had.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Peregrine wrote:

It matters if you're going to accuse Rey of being a Mary Sue. Luke does the same thing with pulling unrealistic skills out of nowhere because his status as the protagonist requires it, so either both characters are Mary Sue or neither is. If you hold them to different standards you're guilty of either having a biased view of the movies you're nostalgic for or sexism in judging a female character more harshly than male equivalents.

Here we go, "You're a sexist if you don't like Rey!"

Weren't you asking specifically who'd done it? And yet, here you are, doing that exact thing.

**Earth127**

Formosa wrote:

Command staff are killed, first thing a competent commander does is gather their highest ranking surviving members and forms a new command staff, second is a debrief/brief to work out what needs to be done and then with ALL available information they make a decision, the command staff is aware of what needs to be done as they have helped formulate the plan.

I use this film as a good example in my lessons of how “not” to do it when it comes to command decisions.

she did gather all the highest ranking surving members, she did form a new staff, she did do a debrief where the most usefull suggestion Poe had boiled down too: we need to attack with our non-existing firepower. He didn't tell Holdo about Maz when he formed the plan with Finn. He even neglects to inform her Finn figured out how the tracking worked. So by your logic in a later post Poe would face the firing squad, not Holdo.

But this movie is in many ways a lessons in how not to command a ship, or designing your bombers, or performing a stalling attack, or dodging a suicide attack, ...

Good god , how did Thrawn not go crazy?

**Peregrine**

dogma wrote:
Of course it isn't realistic, it's Star Wars; nothing is realistic. What needs to established is plausibility, not realism. And yes, it is plausible that Luke could do what he did. This isn't the real world, this a world in which people can own and self-maintain heavily armed spaceships. Hell, Luke's civilian
T-16 obviously had a gun of some type.

If it isn't realistic then it isn't plausible either. I accept that you're willing to allow a lack of realism because it's fiction, but you can't simultaneously accept the lack of realism in this case and insist on realism when it comes to Rey and the sequel-era movies.

He's not even in the action until the trench run.

First of all, not true. He's strafing the surface and dogfighting with TIEs before the trench run. Second, I mean in the trench run itself. Vader pretty much drops in and kills everyone else as fast as his guns can fire, Luke manages to evade and survive much longer than anyone else.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Here we go, "You're a sexist if you don't like Rey!"

Weren't you asking specifically who'd done it? And yet, here you are, doing that exact thing.

JFC, stop making straw man arguments. My words are right there, quoted in your post, and I clearly did not say "you're a sexist if you don't like Rey".