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I'm going to make a leap of faith and assume you were not in the military. A good commander NEVER explains his reasoning. He gives orders, he builds routines so that his officers know what to do in every given situation, but the question WHY he decides as he does is for him and him alone. Otherwise discipline goes to the dustbin and every single soldier thinks they can be a commander. If there is a need to abandon ship, a routine with actions on how to abandon the ship is already rolled out and rehearsed a hundrend times before. But the reason why do we need to abandon ship, the soldiers/lieutenants/captains have no reason or right to know.

Holdo did this part correctly. Poe was all about "what the heck lady, whyyyyyy" and she was like "because I'm the commander and that's my order". Perfect response there.

Holdo failed many other parts of being a commander, though. Even if the first Order ambushed her, her plan was to stay put and wait for a miracle. She was a priestess, not a war commander.

I am going to take a leap and say neither have you, or at least you have never had a competent leader.

If the chain of command breaks down or is killed (which it was) it is SOP to reform a new one on the fly, part of this is to have a quick brief/de brief to sort out the new chain of command (that did not happen), part of this brief is to update the new COC with any and all VITAL imformation (which did not happen), Vital imformation would include any plan to remove yourself from the combat zone, this is done to ensure that everyone is accounted for and knows what is required of them to complete the task at hand (which did not happen), had this happened Poe would have told the Vice admiral that the empire had tech that tracks in HS, to which the VA would inform Poe that she already knew and she had a plan to escape the ship with cloaked shuttles, this then would mean no mutiny, no trip to canto, which would in turn mean the party aboard the empire ship would have not been captured, so the hacker could not give up Vital imformation about the shuttles which directly led to the deaths of hundreds of Rebel fighters and loss of the entire infrastructure, these facts would come out in a military tribunal and she would be imprisoned or worse.

 Peregrine wrote:
JFC, stop making straw man arguments. My words are right there, quoted in your post, and I clearly did not say "you're a sexist if you don't like Rey".

Uh, yeah. You kinda straight up said that if you think Rey is a Mary Sue and don't think Luke is (and Luke's close, but nowhere near as bad as Rey), you're 'sexist'.

So, yeah. That's why I'm 100% convinced that people who are too attached and hyper-defensive of these movies to the point of irrational and inconsistent comparisons are the intellectual and ideological sewer of a fandom. People can't just 'not like' something, they can't just think she's poorly written, they've got to be woman-hating man-pig Alt-Right bigots.

There's no straw man argument, just you and your pathetic attempts to frame people who disagree with you in a negative light. And you wonder why your entrance into any discussion on this site is a herald to a shut-down.

Only the things you say did not happen Formosa, did happen. Simply mostly offscreen and Poe wasn't included , probably due a recent demotion.

And I hope you never run a tibunal were Holdo is blamed more than Poe who is blamed more than DJ. DJ should have never had the information, hence the need for quiet. Lovely how that works out.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I'm going to make a leap of faith and assume you were not in the military. A good commander NEVER explains his reasoning. He gives orders, he builds routines so that his officers know what to do in every given situation, but the question WHY he decides as he does is for him and him alone. Otherwise discipline goes to the dustbin and every single soldier thinks they can be a commander. If there is a need to abandon ship, a routine with actions on how to abandon the ship is already rolled out and rehearsed a hundrend times before. But the reason why do we need to abandon ship, the soldiers/lieutenants/captains have no reason or right to know.

Uh, sure. If you're a North Korean or Iraqi general, this is a great leadership style. Otherwise, military leaders tend to explain the hell out of their reasons and their intent and desired end state, because....

... those reasons 'why' for 'him and him alone'? Cool. What happens when he dies? Chaos happens. Even the lowliest Mafioso or gang leader makes sure his lieutenants and his guys know what's going on in case something happens.

she did gather all the highest ranking surving members

When?

she did form a new staff

No she didnt, at least not that we were shown

she did do a debrief

No she didnt, she dressed him down infront of junior soldiers and degraded him, thats not a debrief

where the most usefull suggestion Poe had boiled down too: we need to attack with our non-existing firepower.

Well shucks, he was suffering from a traumatic incident, a competent commander would see this and work around it, thanks for pointing out another problem with her.

He didn't tell Holdo about Maz when he formed the plan with Finn. He even neglects to inform her Finn figured out how the tracking worked

Yep and thats his failing, directly caused by her, they are both equally to blame here.

So by your logic in a later post Poe would face the firing squad, not Holdo.

He would be court marshalled and imprisoned, his actions are as a direct result of a senior officer not following the Rules and Regulations.

But this movie is in many ways a lessons in how not to command a ship, or designing your bombers, or performing a stalling attack, or dodging a suicide attack

Yep, I am just pointing out just how badly that character was portrayed and implemented

Good god , how did Thrawn not go crazy?

Because he knew what he was doing, shame the writers didnt know what they were talking about in both cases.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It doesn't matter what training or experience Luke may have had in a crop-duster aircraft (SW equivalent of.)

He's the hero and therefore will save the day, by some combination of skill and luck.

This is because Star Wars is a rollicking space yarn, not a guide manual for how to train in air-to-ground rocket attacks.

It matters if you're going to accuse Rey of being a Mary Sue. Luke does the same thing with pulling unrealistic skills out of nowhere because his status as the protagonist requires it, so either both characters are Mary Sue or neither is. If you hold them to different standards you're guilty of either having a biased view of the movies you're nostalgic for or sexism in judging a female character more harshly than male equivalents.

And your constant insistence that nothing matters because Star Wars is mindless fiction is getting really annoying. I get it, your ideal movie is a CGI artist's demo reel, but for most people a movie has to be plausible for it to be worth watching. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far, if a movie is full of unrealistic nonsense after bad writing after blatant Mary Sue-ism then it isn't enjoyable, no matter how much of a CGI budget it had.

Only Luke grew to be badass. We saw him weak, we saw him just a boy, whining he has to do work and not go with his friends to play. We saw him training and failing, time and time again under Obi Wan (while in the Falcon) and under Yoda. We saw him fight his inner daemons in a mental fight and losing said fight badly. We saw him scarred by his loved ones dying and we saw him split between duty to his fate and duty to his friends. We saw him make wrong decisions (leaving training early to go save Han) and we saw him getting punished and learn from this. And then, yes, we saw him being a badass hero, becoming one after trial and error, after a personal quest to grow, not only because his daddy was space jesus.

Let's take a look at Rey. She's a nobody, born from nobodies. She lived in a desert planet, like Luke did. Only when Luke left with Obi wan, he didn't even know how to handle himself in the cantina. Whereas Rey knows how to dissassemble valuable parts from imperial destroyers, how to speak binary (even though she did not own any droids ever before), how to fight, how to pilot, how to instantly recognize garbage ships from good ships, knows half the galaxy geography even if she never left her planet or went to any kind of school before. heck if I'm not mistaken she can even speak with Chewie? (not sure about this one). She learns how to use the Force in like 2 minutes, without even knowing there was a thing called Force before and she can immediately use it to perform mind control. Not like pull a rock or something, perform actual Jedi Mind Tricks. Then she learns how to beat a trained Sith in a lightsaber fight, even if she hasn't even touched a lightsaber before in her life. Luke's lightsaber talks to her with no explanation except because she's Rey.

Comparing Luke with Rey in terms of Mary Sueness is ridiculous, sorry.

]Only the things you say did not happen Formosa, did happen. Simply mostly offscreen and Poe wasn't included , probably due a recent demotion.

So it didnt happen, because at no point are we shown it happened and at no point is it even indicated as to have happened, I believe the saying absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence, and I understand thats the stance your taking, however we dont even get a sniff of any evidence that it could have happened and as i say "lack of evidence isnt evidence"

And I hope you never run a tibunal were Holdo is blamed more than Poe who is blamed more than DJ. DJ should have never had the information, hence the need for quiet. Lovely how that works out.

chain of circumstances started with the OIC, so yes, the buck would end up on her, sad but thats the way it works.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Only Luke grew to be badass. We saw him weak, we saw him just a boy, whining he has to do work and not go with his friends to play. We saw him training and failing, time and time again under Obi Wan (while in the Falcon) and under Yoda. We saw him fight his inner daemons in a mental fight and losing said fight badly. We saw him scared by his loved ones dying and we saw him split between duty to his fate and duty to his friends. We saw him make wrong decisions (leaving training early to go save Han) and we saw him learn from this. And then, yes, we saw him being a badass hero, becoming one after trial and error, after a personal quest to grow, not only because his daddy was space jesus.

Let's take a look at Rey. She's a nobody, born from nobodies. She lived in a desert planet, like Luke did. Only when Luke left with Obi wan, he didn't even know how to handle himself in the cantina. Whereas Rey knows how to dissassemble valuable parts from imperial destroyers, how to speak binary (even though she did not own any droids ever before), how to fight, how to pilot, how to instantly recognize garbage ships from good ships, knows half the galaxy geography even if she never left her planet or went to any kind of school before. heck if I'm not mistaken she can even speak with Chewie? (not sure about this one). She learns how to use the Force in like 2 minutes, without even knowing there was a thing called Force before and she can immediately use it to perform mind control. Not like pull a rock or something, perform actual Jedi Mind Tricks. Then she learns how to beat a trained Sith in a lightsaber fight, even if she hasn't even touched a lightsaber before in her life. Luke's lightsaber talks to her with no explanation except because she's Rey.

Comparing Luke with Rey in terms of Mary Sueness is ridiculous, sorry.

Just to chip in as well; after his first Light Sabre fight, Luke was destroyed emotionally, had his hand sliced off and, in my opinion, decided to jump to his death rather than surrender. He...lost. No ifs, ands or buts. But in her first fight, Ray beats the guy without much difficulty, and left him with the scars. Had they not been separated by the opening chasm she could have finished him off.

There's no competition.

I'm not accusing either Rey or Luke of being a Mary Sue. I think they're both great characters, and obviously they are both heroes.

I find Star Wars plausible as a rollicking space yarn. That's not the same as mindless fiction, but it does require a greater level of suspension of disbelief from the audience than a more realistic film would.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Just to chip in as well; after his first Light Sabre fight, Luke was destroyed emotionally, had his hand sliced off and, in my opinion, decided to jump to his death rather than surrender. He...lost. No ifs, ands or buts. But in her first fight, Ray beats the guy without much difficulty, and left him with the scars. Had they not been separated by the opening chasm she could have finished him off.

There's no competition.

Piloting the Falcon like an expert still baffles me.

Just because you've been scratching around junkyards and know how an engine works and which parts are worth a buck, doesn't mean you know how to hop into a manual-transmission rally car and start drifting like a pro.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not accusing either Rey or Luke of being a Mary Sue. I think they're both great characters, and obviously they are both heroes.

I find Star Wars plausible as a rollicking space yarn. That's not the same as mindless fiction, but it does require a greater level of suspension of disbelief from the audience than a more realistic film would.

Rey is textbook Mary Sue. Might be even more than Caldor Draigo.

Piloting the Falcon like an expert still baffles me.

Just because you've been scratching around junkyards and know how an engine works and which parts are worth a buck, doesn't mean you know how to hop into a manual-transmission rally car and start drifting like a pro.

We know from ANH when Han makes fun of him "I'm not a bad pilot myself."

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Uh, yeah. You kinda straight up said that if you think Rey is a Mary Sue and don't think Luke is (and Luke's close, but nowhere near as bad as Rey), you're 'sexist'.

STOP LYING.

My words are right there for anyone to see. In the post you quoted I even explicitly stated an alternative to sexism for doing the thing I'm objecting to: a biased view favoring the movies you have nostalgia for over the modern ones you have less attachment to. There is no excuse for you lying and trying to misrepresent what I said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not accusing either Rey or Luke of being a Mary Sue. I think they're both great characters, and obviously they are both heroes.

Then the realism argument isn't directed at you. I'm not sure why you're trying to answer it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Just to chip in as well; after his first Light Sabre fight, Luke was destroyed emotionally, had his hand sliced off and, in my opinion, decided to jump to his death rather than surrender. He...lost. No ifs, ands or buts. But in her first fight, Ray beats the guy without much difficulty, and left him with the scars. Had they not been separated by the opening chasm she could have finished him off.

There's no competition.

There's also one minor difference: Luke fights the last of the original jedi, a master duelist with decades of experience in hunting down and killing jedi and a symbol of terror for his allies and enemies alike. Rey fights a fanboy who thinks space-Hitler was pretty cool and is openly mocked by the First Order's military and even his own master. So yes, Rey wins, but she wins against far inferior competition.

 Formosa wrote:

]Only the things you say did not happen Formosa, did happen. Simply mostly offscreen and Poe wasn't included , probably due a recent demotion.

So it didnt happen, because at no point are we shown it happened and at no point is it even indicated as to have happened, I believe the saying absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence, and I understand thats the stance your taking, however we dont even get a sniff of any evidence that it could have happened and as i say "lack of evidence isnt evidence"

So, you're arguing that the people that Poe took prisoner during his mutiny were not the command staff who had planned and were executing the shuttle escape plan?

Poe was demoted from Commander to Captain. He was no longer in command of the fighter wing (indeed, there was basically no fighter wing left). As such there was no need for him to be part of any briefings as the plan did not require him.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As far as I can see, in TLJ the Rebel army/space force defends itself against the New Order attack using tactics to cover their retreat, then is surprised by the hyperspace tracking, loses a lot of its leadership, and manages to formulate a new plan to cope with the changed situation.

It's not The Battle of the River Plate, but it's hardly a complete absence of organisation.

Not what happened.

The rebel "fleet" is evacuating the planet,
The First Order Fleet shows up, bumbles around for a bit
The rebels send in painfully slow bombers they dredged up from somewhere and blow up one high priority ship
The rebels retreat via hyperspace in the disorder that follows.

All good, then the real stupidity starts

The rebels are followed - which is up till them apparently impossible
Three fighters wipe out the Command bridge (and apparently anyone with any intelligence left on the ship) and every fighter on the ship
The First Order then do nothing and the rebels likewise bumble along - they don't send their multiple hyperspace ships in different directions, they do nothing.
They decide to limp along towards one specific planet that is obvious and secretly they will abandon ship at the last moment - no is told to make any preparations for such, nope just bumble along as it seems the FO has no more idea of what to do either.
They abandon ship in their super stealth (but not hyperspace capable) ships and bumble along towards the planet
There is no plan for the last remaining ship to jump away to distract the fleet - nope - that's too clever.
Someone nudges the FO to "Turn on their scanners" ( and they are detected.
They then bumble along in a straight line for the planet - no evasive action, nope
Suddenly the last person on the ship decides that "oh yeah you can just ram people" - no idea why the other two ships could not have done this.

 Peregrine wrote:

There's also one minor difference: Luke fights the last of the original jedi, a master duelist with decades of experience in hunting down and killing jedi and a symbol of terror for his allies and enemies alike. Rey fights a fanboy who thinks space-Hitler was pretty cool and is openly mocked by the First Order's military and even his own master. So yes, Rey wins, but she wins against far inferior competition.

I guess I also missed the bit where Vader was blasted in the gut by a bowcaster prior to fighting Luke as well.

 Peregrine wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Just to chip in as well; after his first Light Sabre fight, Luke was destroyed emotionally, had his hand sliced off and, in my opinion, decided to jump to his death rather than surrender. He...lost. No ifs, ands or buts. But in her first fight, Ray beats the guy without much difficulty, and left him with the scars. Had they not been separated by the opening chasm she could have finished him off.

There's no competition.

There's also one minor difference: Luke fights the last of the original jedi, a master duelist with decades of experience in hunting down and killing jedi and a symbol of terror for his allies and enemies alike. Rey fights a fanboy who thinks space-Hitler was pretty cool and is openly mocked by the First Order's military and even his own master. So yes, Rey wins, but she wins against far inferior competition.

Even so, we saw Luke grow into his character. Rey was just born perfect. In fact Rey in many aspects was just born being better than Anakin ever was. Wouldn't even be surprised if Rey beat The Emperor in a mental duel. And it's not only that she's a badass. She's also cute, selfless, charitable, kind, self sacrificing, heroic, incorruptible. Like, come on.

Because the realism argument is directed at everyone, and everyone has the right to engage with it.

 Peregrine wrote:


My words are right there for anyone to see. In the post you quoted I even explicitly stated an alternative to sexism for doing the thing I'm objecting to: a biased view favoring the movies you have nostalgia for over the modern ones you have less attachment to. There is no excuse for you lying and trying to misrepresent what I said.

"You're either a bigot or you have a preference to the older movies, or nostalgia clouds your taste." What a fine series of options there. Why not a third one, something like "people who smoke crack"? I'm sure you can find a plethora of ways to throw gak at people who disagree with you, without accepting that they see things differently and have perfectly valid reasons for doing so.

Nah, man- Dump a gallon of poison into that well. No one can have a clear and rational reason for preferring the writing of the older movies to that of the new ones. Because you're incapable of understanding matters of preference and the reasons, they have to be some kind of mental inferior or hate women.

The only sorts of people who think like this are people who are blindly obsessed with something for ideological reasons, or people who eat their own excrement. (Did you see what I did there? That's an example of your statement, flipped around.)

 Mr Morden wrote:

They abandon ship in their super stealth (but not hyperspace capable) ships and bumble along towards the planet
There is no plan for the last remaining ship to jump away to distract the fleet - nope - that's too clever.
Someone nudges the FO to "Turn on their scanners" ( and they are detected.
They then bumble along in a straight line for the planet - no evasive action, nope.

DJ didn't tell them to turn on their scanners, he told them specifically what kind of scan to run, potentially with what specific frequencies to look for etc.

As for attempting to perform evasive action. At that range it would be impossible as the ships cannot move fast enough to outmanoeuvre the tracking of the guns.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Piloting the Falcon like an expert still baffles me.

Just because you've been scratching around junkyards and know how an engine works and which parts are worth a buck, doesn't mean you know how to hop into a manual-transmission rally car and start drifting like a pro.

You are so right. Do you drive? If so, you'll know that cars, especially older ones and ones that have been tampered with (remember that the falcon is heavily customized) have...quirks that can throw people who've never driven them before off. And since Lucas is a car nut and racing fan and put all that into his stories, I imagine it's the same for the ships of Star Wars.

Case in point, my first car was a '98 Renault Megane with a very tricky gear box. To get it into second gear required the stick to be shifted in a very particular way. It was so bad that if not done right it wouldn't change gear, would make a lot of whining and grinding sounds, and the car would go nowhere. Anyone else would think that it was broken. Hell I thought it was broken. Only practice got it right, and I can't stress this enough, I was the only one who could drive it. Not just legally, but in actuality.

Point is, the Falcon strikes me as that kind of vehicle, so to have a kid who's apparently never flown or even been in a working ship before jump in it and fly away seems wrong. Han and Chewie should be the only ones in the pilot seats until the next ones have been throughly trained on how to fly it. Even Luke flying an X Wing can be somewhat explained.

Or...maybe I'm just way way way overthinking it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I guess I also missed the bit where Vader was blasted in the gut by a bowcaster prior to fighting Luke as well.

Then maybe you missed the part where Vader was slapping Luke around like he was nothing the first time they met, after repeated instances of Luke kinda getting a run for his money- Luke only 'won' when he let himself go too close to the dark side. Or you might have missed the fact where, despite being wounded- Ren was actually trained. Watch also how Rey fights- that's not someone who has never picked up a lightsaber before. She's fighting on par with Ren every step of the way.

Someone with a flesh wound and years upon years of training is still going to mop the floor with someone who's never handled the weapon in their life.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

]Only the things you say did not happen Formosa, did happen. Simply mostly offscreen and Poe wasn't included , probably due a recent demotion.

So it didnt happen, because at no point are we shown it happened and at no point is it even indicated as to have happened, I believe the saying absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence, and I understand thats the stance your taking, however we dont even get a sniff of any evidence that it could have happened and as i say "lack of evidence isnt evidence"

So, you're arguing that the people that Poe took prisoner during his mutiny were not the command staff who had planned and were executing the shuttle escape plan?

Poe was demoted from Commander to Captain. He was no longer in command of the fighter wing (indeed, there was basically no fighter wing left). As such there was no need for him to be part of any briefings as the plan did not require him.

Again thats not how it works, he is a senior commisioned officer, any briefing would need his input, especially as it involved his staff, and the Vice Admiral was taken prisoner, and some other people, who are these other people? were we ever told, are they even military?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Or...maybe I'm just way way way overthinking it.

Not at all. Another way of thinking of it- imagine knowing how a rifle works, knowing how to identify one, which parts belong where... that doesn't mean you're going to pick it up and be a lethal sniper if you've never shot one before.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Because the realism argument is directed at everyone, and everyone has the right to engage with it.

Damn right!

There is no "apparently" part. Luke himself states in ANH that he is a good pilot.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

They abandon ship in their super stealth (but not hyperspace capable) ships and bumble along towards the planet
There is no plan for the last remaining ship to jump away to distract the fleet - nope - that's too clever.
Someone nudges the FO to "Turn on their scanners" ( and they are detected.
They then bumble along in a straight line for the planet - no evasive action, nope.

As for attempting to perform evasive action. At that range it would be impossible as the ships cannot move fast enough to outmanoeuvre the tracking of the guns.

Its Star Wars - Ships dodge guns all the time - the big guns on the giant ship only fired occasionally and probably more like 16" battleship guns - designed to kill other capital ships - firing at a evading small ship would not be easy. One bumbling along in a predictable straight line - easier.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
More straw man arguments and lying.

STOP LYING.

Of course people can have legitimate reasons to prefer the older movies. FFS I prefer the older movies, and have posted plenty of criticism of the newer ones here. But if you make that particular argument you are doing so either out of personal bias favoring the movies you grew up with or sexism. The fact that you choose to interpret "biased towards the movies you grew up with" as "mental inferior" is your problem, not mine.

STOP LYING.

Dude, he is known for it, just dont engage with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
More straw man arguments and lying.

STOP LYING.

Of course people can have legitimate reasons to prefer the older movies. FFS I prefer the older movies, and have posted plenty of criticism of the newer ones here. But if you make that particular argument you are doing so either out of personal bias favoring the movies you grew up with or sexism. The fact that you choose to interpret "biased towards the movies you grew up with" as "mental inferior" is your problem, not mine.

Like I said, dont engage with him.

Poe is no longer a senior officer after Leia demotes him.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Then maybe you missed the part where Vader was slapping Luke around like he was nothing the first time they met, after repeated instances of Luke kinda getting a run for his money- Luke only 'won' when he let himself go too close to the dark side. Or you might have missed the fact where, despite being wounded- Ren was actually trained. Watch also how Rey fights- that's not someone who has never picked up a lightsaber before. She's fighting on par with Ren every step of the way.

Someone with a flesh wound and years upon years of training is still going to mop the floor with someone who's never handled the weapon in their life.

Again, Vader is a master swordsman, veteran jedi hunter, and the most powerful force user in known history. Kylo Ren is a Vader fanboy who his own troops openly treat as a joke, with the added bonus of a wound that would have been instantly fatal to anyone but a major character. The two are not even close to comparable.