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sirlynchmob wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so what do you think he means when he says this:

Abrams was clear: “Their problem isn’t ‘Star Wars,’ their problem is being threatened.”

It means what it says. However, it doesn't mean what you are trying to present it as. The "their" in the quote is, as is clear from the context of it, referring to a specific group of people: anti-feminist s who posted sexist garbage about the movie. It is not referring to everyone who ever said anything bad about it.

You keep talking about people posting sexist garbage, but you've never provide any evidence of anyone doing so. Because there is none, and no one did. That was the narrative that was pushed, lucasfilms, they claimed it was true and slandered everyone who disliked the movie. Not because they have valid reasons to not like the movie, but because they're just posting sexist garbage. That "their" in the quotes is referring to anyone who didn't like the movie and that is what the 3 publications picked up on and ran with.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I saw in it, too, especially around release when the initial backlash was coming in and the sjw prog-paganda squad went scurrying for cover.
So, they came up with claiming that the movie was great, but it was backwards yokels from flyover country who aren't on the liberal A-train who just can't see the genius in it...
Contrary to this myth, however, the trouble seemd to me that it had nothing to do with sexist/racist/right-wing whatevers, and everything to do with lots and lots of people just not enjoying the movie, at all.
Now, this whole thing has crystallized around the me-too down-with-whites neo-fascism that is honestly groundless in most every instance I have had the chance to review.
It is almost as if TLJ was made to serve as a test of the racism and sexism that is otherwise silent, and deadly, in anyone caucasian, straight, and bottom-up about power structures.

sirlynchmob wrote:
You keep talking about people posting sexist garbage, but you've never provide any evidence of anyone doing so. Because there is none, and no one did. That was the narrative that was pushed, lucasfilms, they claimed it was true and slandered everyone who disliked the movie. Not because they have valid reasons to not like the movie, but because they're just posting sexist garbage. That "their" in the quotes is referring to anyone who didn't like the movie and that is what the 3 publications picked up on and ran with.

Let's be real here- you can trawl a comment section and find something sexist. In fact, you can also find someone blasting it for anything in the world. It's easy to find an actual idiot- but since when do these idiots warrant a response? They're in small numbers, and generally they already have a reputation for being an idiot. "Oh, no- David Duke said horrid things about Black Panther!" Well, he would. No shocker.

But when you have to fish that minority of the comments out and hoist it up, it shows. And since there's a LOT of criticism of this movie, they're fishing this out to smokescreen the actual criticism. We've seen it done in comics, games, etc. It's not a new trick at all, and anyone who has been around for a few years can see how transparent and dishonest it is.

 jeff white wrote:
Dude, srsly, this anti-semite stuff is garbage.
I have been on the receiving end of stuff like that.
Everyone knows that it is an evil trick meant to disarm and distract from real wrongdoing.

As have I. Again, I've got a little Hebrew in the bloodstream. I was trying to make a point, and no- I know full well he wasn't going SS on us. I've caught flak for being what I am, and I've seen people try to use it as a shield to protect themselves and smear someone who did nothing wrong. It sucks all around. You have to understand, I wasn't being serious. I was being satirical.

Isn't it scummy when people try to insinuate that someone is a bigot to shield themselves from criticism? My point hit home harder than I thought, it seems.

@Peregrine

again, there are no fans who decried Johnson for it's focus on female centric stories, if there was wouldn't you also see it for the force awakens? except we don't. We'd have seen it in rogue 1, yet we don't.

that was the selling the narrative that there is people like that, not proof.

you can't use 1 guy on dakka as evidence for anything, especially to counter the directors themselves in interviews.

sirlynchmob wrote:
again, there are no fans who decried Johnson for it's focus on female centric stories, if there was wouldn't you also see it for the force awakens? except we don't. We'd have seen it in rogue 1, yet we don't.

Kinda weird how a LOT of people loved the female characters in Rebels and Clone Wars, and have always wanted to see more of them... then suddenly all these woman-haters just manifested out of their ranks.

I was actually kinda pleased when I heard the lead would be female. I was flat-out terrified they'd try to do an angsty teen boy as the lead when I first heard they were continuing the series.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
again, there are no fans who decried Johnson for it's focus on female centric stories, if there was wouldn't you also see it for the force awakens? except we don't. We'd have seen it in rogue 1, yet we don't.

Kinda weird how a LOT of people loved the female characters in Rebels and Clone Wars, and have always wanted to see more of them... then suddenly all these woman-haters just manifested out of their ranks.

I was actually kinda pleased when I heard the lead would be female. I was flat-out terrified they'd try to do an angsty teen boy as the lead when I first heard they were continuing the series.

ya I forgot the clone wars, who doesn't want an Asoka movie? I'd like to see it, a good movie though that does her justice, not some shallow plot & characters like Johnson made.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Dude, srsly, this anti-semite stuff is garbage.
I have been on the receiving end of stuff like that.
Everyone knows that it is an evil trick meant to disarm and distract from real wrongdoing.

As have I. Again, I've got a little Hebrew in the bloodstream. I was trying to make a point, and no- I know full well he wasn't going SS on us. I've caught flak for being what I am, and I've seen people try to use it as a shield to protect themselves and smear someone who did nothing wrong. It sucks all around. You have to understand, I wasn't being serious. I was being satirical.

Isn't it scummy when people try to insinuate that someone is a bigot to shield themselves from criticism? My point hit home harder than I thought, it seems.

Ummm... I doubt it.
Ancient "hebrews" were a tribe of Canaan.
Don't know anything about you,
but ...
I was born Jewish, because my mom was.
But, she was Russian.
Most contemporary "jews" - at least the ones tossing around accusations of anti-semitism - are actually Khazars - Kagans.
See, not semites, at all.
So... I doubt that you have any ground to stand on, here.
Bad form, man.
Srsly.
Give people a bad name doing stuff like that.

sirlynchmob wrote:
again, there are no fans who decried Johnson for it's focus on female centric stories

AD posted the article with direct quotes proving otherwise.

especially to counter the directors themselves in interviews.

The directors have not said the things you are claiming they said.

sirlynchmob wrote:
ya I forgot the clone wars, who doesn't want an Asoka movie? I'd like to see it, a good movie though that does her justice, not some shallow plot & characters like Johnson made.

Everyone sitting here either mad about the 'diversity' or praising it, and I'm trying to figure out why out of an entire cast of personalities in a Star Wars movie from 2018 we couldn't add in an alien or two.

Or why at least Maz couldn't have had a bigger role. She was actually one of the few characters I really liked in TFA.

 jeff white wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


No please do, I’m interested in the result.

As the movie was released, most professional critics rated the it highly.

True

Most (everyone I have heard/known/read) who are not professional critics frankly did not like the movie, at all.

[Citation needed, I give 25-35% at best. With 40-50% not really caring either way

Stylized Transformers in space - just noise and spectacle.

Plz go watch an atual transformers movie. Or don't It's almost a hate crie to force someone to watch them

For those of us who have been following this storyline for more than 40 years
(Episode 4 was the first film that I ever saw in a theater and not with my Mom/Grandparents - I was 8)
the discontinuity, while at the same time recycling plot lines with name swaps,

OT is just as guilty of this. It gave us 2 death stars.

simply the lack of intellectual effort,

It's there. But then again it was overflowing in the prequels. Didn't make them any good

simply wrecked everything, all the way back,
and has left such a bad feeling about Disney,
as if we needed any more evidence that it is simply the animation wing of the neo-liberal prog-paganda machine,
and about big entertainment altogether,
that honestly I stopped seeing all movies at the theaters.

Plz don't project general dissapointment in an industry on one movie

I will even be waiting for Deadpool 2 to arrive on the VOD at less than 4bux to see on the home projector,
and am doing the same for Infinity War.

It just stopped being fun to be a fan
when these corporate hotshots decide that
to enjoy the movie,
you need to wear special freak-flag goggles
and then, when you do, it is all warmed lube and rainbows.

As above

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think the anti-SJW feedback is but a small nearly meaningless loss. And if Black panther and wonder woman have proven anything going the other way would have been worse.

ALso remember the fringe dude who made a cut with all the women removed and got royally mocked by the cast/ Rian on twitter.

In the interest of a healthy discussion, I would advise Ignoring Dakka's primary salt troll. Live is a lot more stess free without him.

 jeff white wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I think the biggest "problem" for me was I wanted simple morality play narratives of good vs. evil and I got Nihilism instead.

In this movie, essentially "Nothing Mattered". It didn;t matter what you did, it just didn't matter.

Spoiler:

Blew up the Dreadnought.... but the enemy fleet is still on your tail!
Search for your parents..... They aren't important.
Killed Leia and Luke.... No you didn't Leia lived and Luke faded away on his own.
Destroyed the resistance.... except they escaped.
Defeated the Empire.... No, they came back
Force was re-balanced.... except it wasn't.
Destroyed the sacred texts.... No, wrong again!
Killed Snoke.... but no one actually cares.
Rescued the animals.... except you really didn't.
Found the master hacker..... except he ended up being unhelpful

Essentially every single element of the movie followed this exact same pattern of something happened! But it doesn't matter because of X.

This movie only succeeded on one level. It was Theatre of the Absurd. If that was the intention, then congrats. You win and I bow to your mastery of creating Star Seinfeld.

In this whole thread, this ^^ was the most insightful comment that I have found so far.

Yeah, there is no need to 'reconsider'.
This movie and its producers are symptoms.
Where is the contemporary Shakespeare, Moliere, or for that matter George Lucas?
Rian Johnson? Kathleen Kennedy?
We live in an inverted world.
The meek haven't inherited the Earth.
It is the mediocre, and they are dumbing everything down because they can't hold two opposing ideas in their heads at the same time.
Conflict - the ability to entertain real, deep, visceral conflict - this is missing in generation snowflake
and the producers of its entertainment.
This movie has all the substance of wet tissue, and deserves a similar fate.

This.

All the characters in the new trilogy are annoying, regardless of origin.

Hux is a cretin of dick-dastardly-and-muttley-level incompetence
Holdo is an incredibly bad people-manager
Poe acts like an arrogant tool
Finn see-saws between coward and obssessive
Rose is just a bit creepy.
Rey comes across as a bit of an imbecile who essentially keeps getting swept along by the plot.

Essentially, there is literally no one in the film I actually enjoy watching.

For the record, my disappointment in their mishandling of the story and characters is mostly in the wasted potential. I was very happy when I found out that that a woman would be the lead, and that the cast would include a black man too (and from the start this time). Normally I don't think about these things, race and gender, but this time I thought good. This is good. Then they went and ruined my enthusiasm with mediocre to terrible story telling and poor characterization. It's not the actors fault of course. John and Daisy are great, but they can only do so much with that crappy writing and direction.

 Earth127 wrote:
In the interest of a healthy discussion, I would advise Ignoring Dakka's primary salt troll. Live is a lot more stess free without him.

Peregrine's entertaining, at least.

 Earth127 wrote:

I think the anti-SJW feedback is but a small nearly meaningless loss.

I think people really need to get away from throwing the word 'SJW' around. It's become as absurd as calling everyone slightly to the right an 'Alt-Right'. Not everything is an 'SJW conspiracy'. In fact, the ridiculous sort of SJW's are very rare and they're usually internet personalities reaching to get clicks and know they're absurd. But it is, in fact, true that some businesses have learned to capitalize on outrage. I know if I ever became a famous writer and thought my product would be substandards, I'd shoehorn in some diversity and insinuate that people who hated it were bigots. It's a perfect shield and it's been done for years. No 'SJW agenda', just plain old defense tactics. 'Other' the opposition. Make what they are appear to be unpalatable and invalid. Then people are afraid to criticize, because no one wants to be labeled a bigot.

Speaking of which, to drive home my point further, that article does a bit of the work for me:

"In December, an alt-right group claimed responsibility for lowering the film’s Rotten Tomatoes scores..."

That 'Alt-Right' group is called 'Down with Disney's Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys'. Hardly 'Alt-Right'. A brief look over that will tell you. Kinda one more example of people trying to label critics as some sort of bigot for being a critic. But hey, that's pretty common.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
That 'Alt-Right' group is called 'Down with Disney's Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys'. Hardly 'Alt-Right'. A brief look over that will tell you.

No, a brief look will tell you that "alt right" seems pretty accurate. Quoted from the article linked in the one you posted, which has an interview with a moderator of the group:

The moderator explained to The Huffington Post that the group is upset with “Star Wars” for “introducing more female characters into the franchise’s universe.” The group is also not happy that Poe Dameron (Oscar Isaac) has become a “victim of the anti-mansplaining movement” and that characters like Poe and Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill) are in danger of being “turned gay.” The moderator said men should be “reinstated as rulers of society,” and expressed distaste for the way “The Last Jedi” disrespects the franchise’s history.

...

There was a time we ruled society and I want to see that again. That is why I voted for Donald Trump.”

No, I can't possibly see how anyone could call that "alt-right"...

 jeff white wrote:

Ummm... I doubt it...
Give people a bad name doing stuff like that.

What you 'doubt' is irrelevant. Not sure if I was supposed to have a pedigree or something, perhaps some kind of symbol to wear on my lapel?

Family hasn't practiced since... well, like ever. We don't observe any of it, and it's quite diluted. I've more Catholic traditions in the family than Jewish, and we're mostly Atheists if that tells you anything.

Their political leaining may not be alt-right. But calling for the sabotage of every big project a movie studio makes the way they do is very much a tactic reminiscnet of the alt-right.

I would prefer if Disney did not have such a big stake in the entertainment industry but for now it hasn't truly affected the quality of their output. Quite the reverse actually.

 Peregrine wrote:

The moderator explained to The Huffington Post that the group is upset with “Star Wars” for “introducing more female characters into the franchise’s universe.” The group is also not happy that Poe Dameron (Oscar Isaac) has become a “victim of the anti-mansplaining movement” and that characters like Poe and Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill) are in danger of being “turned gay.” The moderator said men should be “reinstated as rulers of society,” and expressed distaste for the way “The Last Jedi” disrespects the franchise’s history.

...
There was a time we ruled society and I want to see that again. That is why I voted for Donald Trump.”

No, I can't possibly see how anyone could call that "alt-right"...

I see nowhere he said that 'we' meant 'white males'. I see a highly edited, and out-of-context quote.

Voting for Trump does not make one 'Alt-Right'. I'm sure in your world of Republican Boogeymen, even that seems absurd.

 Earth127 wrote:
Their political leaining may not be alt-right. But calling for the sabotage of every big project a movie studio makes the way they do is very much a tactic reminiscnet of the alt-right.

Yeah, sabotaging things like movies or speaking events or projects is a strictly Alt-Right concept.

If you've had your head under a pile of rocks for the last few decades.

 Earth127 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


No please do, I’m interested in the result.

As the movie was released, most professional critics rated the it highly.

True

Most (everyone I have heard/known/read) who are not professional critics frankly did not like the movie, at all.

(1)[Citation needed, I give 25-35% at best. With 40-50% not really caring either way

Stylized Transformers in space - just noise and spectacle.

(2) Plz go watch an atual transformers movie. Or don't It's almost a hate crie to force someone to watch them

For those of us who have been following this storyline for more than 40 years
(Episode 4 was the first film that I ever saw in a theater and not with my Mom/Grandparents - I was 8)
the discontinuity, while at the same time recycling plot lines with name swaps,

(3) OT is just as guilty of this. It gave us 2 death stars.

simply the lack of intellectual effort,

(4) It's there. But then again it was overflowing in the prequels. Didn't make them any good

simply wrecked everything, all the way back,
and has left such a bad feeling about Disney,
as if we needed any more evidence that it is simply the animation wing of the neo-liberal prog-paganda machine,
and about big entertainment altogether,
that honestly I stopped seeing all movies at the theaters.

(5) Plz don't project general dissapointment in an industry on one movie

I will even be waiting for Deadpool 2 to arrive on the VOD at less than 4bux to see on the home projector,
and am doing the same for Infinity War.

It just stopped being fun to be a fan
when these corporate hotshots decide that
to enjoy the movie,
you need to wear special freak-flag goggles
and then, when you do, it is all warmed lube and rainbows.

As above

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think the anti-SJW feedback is but a small nearly meaningless loss. And if Black panther and wonder woman have proven anything going the other way would have been worse.

ALso remember the fringe dude who made a cut with all the women removed and got royally mocked by the cast/ Rian on twitter.

In the interest of a healthy discussion, I would advise Ignoring Dakka's primary salt troll. Live is a lot more stess free without him.

OK, so look, I have numbered things for you:
1) I don't need to cite this. It happened/happens - sorry you don;t like it, and so can't believe it, but it is fact.
2) I have - don't talk down to me, and insult me, simply because you don't agree with me. Xformers movies are hot trash. So it this new SW flik. Get over it.
3) Ummm... It gave us one and a half, really. Then, there were none.
4) No, it is not. And, yes, they were Saturday serial style westerns in spaaaaaace. meant to be that way. Now, TLJ has no such touchstone - it is just bad, unoriginal, noise.
5) Oh, now... The disappointment has been building for some time. In every 'entertainment' industry arm from the West, there has been a rather rapid decline with some exceptions few and very far between. I mean, in fact, I have not simply given up on movies, music, and television. The culture is corrupted from top to bottom with so little redeeming that there are simply no good stories left to tell. Sooo many lies. So much infighting. So many troubles, wars of aggression, resource and land theft. forced sterilizations you name it... In movies like SW, people generally want escape, not to have reminders that we are all oppressive invaders and 10th generation rapists and plunderers who hate nature thrown in our faces. I mean, I never raped and plundered anyone. I never fired anyone because of their race or sex. I never even had the chance - why should I shoulder that burden? Why is it Rian Johnson's job to tell me that I must, or that I am a bigot and so on...? Nah. You can keep it. Bunch of monkey waste.

Oh wait, there's more. Here's a direct quote from the group's facebook page:

Even though I am indeed a member of the Alt-Right, and your previous life conditioning tells you that I am wrong and should be denounced, how can I truly be wrong if you embraced my view?

In their own words, a member of the alt right. Are you going to concede defeat on this point now?

Plz ignore peregrine and stop this stupid anti-semitism discussion.

Even when he is right he is trolling.

 Peregrine wrote:
Oh wait, there's more. Here's a direct quote from the group's facebook page:

Even though I am indeed a member of the Alt-Right, and your previous life conditioning tells you that I am wrong and should be denounced, how can I truly be wrong if you embraced my view?

In their own words, a member of the alt right. Are you going to concede defeat on this point now?

Is that someone from the group, or is that the group's position? Having one 'Alt-RIght' person in a group does not make the group 'alt-right'. Come on, now.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
For the record, my disappointment in their mishandling of the story and characters is mostly in the wasted potential. I was very happy when I found out that that a woman would be the lead, and that the cast would include a black man too (and from the start this time). Normally I don't think about these things, race and gender, but this time I thought good. This is good. Then they went and ruined my enthusiasm with mediocre to terrible story telling and poor characterization. It's not the actors fault of course. John and Daisy are great, but they can only do so much with that crappy writing and direction.

Yeah, I am down with this ^^ too.

 Earth127 wrote:
Plz ignore peregrine and stop this stupid anti-semitism discussion.

Even when he is right he is trolling.

Since you have always been nice, I will respect this wish. I feel as if once he finds something in a thread he dislikes, he keeps going until it closes down. We've all seen this before.

Plz mods lock this thread.

Just like with the previous thread on TLJ people (me included) are just too polarized to discuss it in a civil manner on the internet.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Earth127 wrote:
Their political leaining may not be alt-right. But calling for the sabotage of every big project a movie studio makes the way they do is very much a tactic reminiscnet of the alt-right.

Yeah, sabotaging things like movies or speaking events or projects is a strictly Alt-Right concept.

If you've had your head under a pile of rocks for the last few decades.

Really?
Like I dunno, antifa attacking Faith Goldy )not that I know who she even is, but still, makes the point very clear).
How about all the lefties protesting speaking events and conferences on university campuses because they seem unable to hold contrary notions inside their snowflakey heads?
What a bunch of baloney...

 Earth127 wrote:
Plz mods lock this thread.

Well, that's the exact opposite of what we need to do. Because, as I said before, that's the guy's desired end state.

I think at this point it's best to just say, "Sure, dude" and continue on slamming this movie.

 jeff white wrote:
In every 'entertainment' industry arm from the West, there has been a rather rapid decline with some exceptions few and very far between. I mean, in fact, I have not simply given up on movies, music, and television. The culture is corrupted from top to bottom with so little redeeming that there are simply no good stories left to tell.

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

― Socrates


The truth here is not the same old complaints about how culture is in decline, complaints that have been made for literally thousands of years, it's that we have a biased view of the past. When you look back at movies/music/etc from decades ago you only see the good stuff, because that's all anybody bothers to preserve. You see the classic movies that everyone praises and encourages their friends to watch. You hear the best songs that make it onto radio playlists. Etc. You don't see all the mediocre and awful stuff that was mercifully forgotten. And so you forget that back then 90% of movies/music/etc were trash and people were busy complaining about how bad everything is compared to the good old days. Just like people 50 years from now will be nostalgic for 2018 and a time when entertainment didn't suck, while boasting about how they've given up on modern stuff.

 jeff white wrote:

Like I dunno, antifa attacking Faith Goldy )not that I know who she even is, but still, makes the point very clear).
How about all the lefties protesting speaking events and conferences on university campuses because they seem unable to hold contrary notions inside their snowflakey heads?
What a bunch of baloney...

...friend, I was being sarcastic. I gotta start adding tags, apparently!

 jeff white wrote:
How about all the lefties protesting speaking events and conferences on university campuses because they seem unable to hold contrary notions inside their snowflakey heads?

It's amazing how people who claim to be in favor of free speech will get so angry about students using their right to free speech to say "we don't like you, go away".

 Peregrine wrote:
It's amazing how people who claim to be in favor of free speech will get so angry about students using their right to free speech to say "we don't like you, go away".

Sure, Peregrine.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Is that someone from the group, or is that the group's position? Having one 'Alt-RIght' person in a group does not make the group 'alt-right'. Come on, now.

It's from a person with the ability to post as that group (IOW, a moderator/page owner). It's safe to say the rest of the group doesn't disagree too strongly with the person acting as the voice of the group, otherwise they wouldn't be speaking from that position.