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 koooaei wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Not to say GK are good. An optimized list will wipe them. Also, they're not great at low points.

I've found them working best at around 1000-1500 pts. 750 and below is too low for a functionally decent batallion and you need CP. 1750 and above is too much and limited variety and problems against mass vehicles start to show up. Whereas at 1000-1500 you get all the best out of your multi-purpose units.

I mean, I wholly disagree with this.

Any strategy available to GK at 1500 points is far better executed by another flavor of Space Marines or Soup.

Who else can deepstrike a freaking landraider that shoots s5 ap1 bolters to boot? And than another 40+ shots disembark and clean up with force weapons. Hm...who else can do it really?

Who cares about a deep striking land raider? You'll kill some screens. Great. People are always surprised when I surround their land raiders with Genestealers, and they lose the raider AND the guys inside in the same turn. Deep striking the land raider makes my job even easier, and I can't wait for you to feed me like 550 points, over 1/3 of your entire list, to kill maybe 60 points in Gaunts.

Space marines have much better gambits, and aren't forced to rely on an overpriced "kill me" box.

I'm like the vending machine in American Psycho. "Feed me a land raider." Please, deep strike it in my face. Please.

Why would you use this strategy against tyranids. They come to die themselves. Man, as if you're playing against the wall.

Karol wrote:

I'll ask my next opponent if he is willing to let me proxy power armored Grey Knights with termintor models for an auto lose. They seem super weak though, high points cost just one wound , save even lower then terminators and 0 inv. I kind of a don't get how people can say that terminators are worse then strikes, when strikes have all defensive stats lower and all offensive stats the same.

The issue with Terminators is how common Multi Wound Weapons are. As a result of the fusion of anti monster and anti vehicle weapons, and with how common multi wounds are on medium class weapons, it is now very easy to kill 2 wound models. As such, the general trend in 8th edition is that it is more important to have firepower and bodies than it is to have good defenses and multiple wounds. In general 8th edition favors more models as opposed to more elite models, and it favors putting more guns on the table as opposed to more defensively oriented models.

The durability difference isn't as big as you make it seem. After playing more and more games, you start to realize that while invulnerable saves are really pumped up, Armor Saves are a lot better now, especially in cover. A terminator may have a 5++ invulnerable save, but that only matters against AP-4 or more. Even against a Plasma Gun with AP3, your armor save is equivalent to your invulnerable save. For a Grey Knight Terminator, that invulnerable save is really only coming into play against Melta Guns, and a Knight's Thunderstrike Gauntlet. With the way cover works now, your Grey Knight Strikers can enjoy similar protection. A Power Armored Grey Knight will have a 2+ save in cover, against a Plasma shot, you will have a 5+ armor save while in cover. Furthermore, every unsaved would you suffer from an overcharged plasma gun is one dead terminator or one dead PAGK Striker. When you inevitably start failing saves and picking up models, its much better to be picking up Strikers than a Termie. And to add insult to injury, Strikes are cheaper, which means more guns and swords on the table. More Stormbolters, More Falcions, More Death. That their offensive stats are the same per model, the offense edge goes to the squad that can afford more models.

The issue with GK is even your power armor guys are expensive, and it hurts when you have to remove models, regardless of what they are.

 koooaei wrote:
Why would you use this strategy against tyranids. They come to die themselves. Man, as if you're playing against the wall.

What army would you use it against?

Karol wrote:
So what am I suppose to do now? I don't have any ravens or land raiders.

But an escalation league shouldn't have you facing optimized lists - that's just a trap.

I don't know what an optimised list, but the only difference between the armies we play with and the armies that people that play longer is that their armies are painted.

I'll ask my next opponent if he is willing to let me proxy power armored Grey Knights with termintor models for an auto lose. They seem super weak though, high points cost just one wound , save even lower then terminators and 0 inv. I kind of a don't get how people can say that terminators are worse then strikes, when strikes have all defensive stats lower and all offensive stats the same.

"What do I do if my army stinks?" is a bit of an age old question, and there isn't really one answer, but I'll take a shot at it.

The first thing I think you need to do is ask yourself why you are playing 40k at all. It's likely some mixture of liking the fluff, it being a fun social thing to do, the game just being really fun, the armies being cool, liking to build and paint the models, and so on, but everyone is going to have slightly different ratios of what they enjoy in particular about the hobby.

Regardless of your ratios, you have a few options in front of you:

1. If you just like the Grey Knights (painting them, modeling them, playing them, etc) keep on playing with what you have, learning as much as you can from the games you play, and build up your collection as you go. You might not win very many games with Grey Knights, but the more games you play the better you'll get at the game, and although playing GK is definitely 40K hard-mode, it's clearly not impossible to win games, especially random pick games against people with mediocre lists. In a year or so once you have a big collection all painted and beautiful, it's entirely possible they will perform much better. You could start an Eldar right now since they are so good, and depending on how fast you buy, build, and paint up an army, it's possible that they won't be nearly as good anymore (since there are likely to be FAQs, Chapter Approved, etc changing the game between now and then) by the time they are done, and then you'd wish you stuck with grey knights. This is the option i would pick if you really just love grey knights.
2. Take a break from grey knights and play another army. It's entirely possible that you can shelve the grey knights, start another faction, and enjoy that a lot more. I might suggest that you pick an Imperial faction so as to at least potentially be able to make use of your Grey Knight stuff if they ever get decent, but you could always do chaos or xenos instead. This is the option i would choose if you know that you don't want most games to be uphill battles, and think you could get interested in another army.

Then, no matter which option you choose, I think it's apparent you should do a few other things before building up your collection, because it is definitely annoying to find out the two rhinos you bought aren't very good (trust me i own 12 of them lol) or that they don't even fit the terminators you have with them:

1) Research units and armies before you buy them. I would read codexes, watch battle reports, listen to podcasts, read threads, and talk to internet people about units before you buy them, and also get a general idea of what you want your initial end result 2000 point list to look like as you build up your collection. Haphazardly buying units because they are cool is fine if you really want to pain them and care more about having a cool army than a good army, but it's not really the way to win a ton of games. A good balanced army if going to generally have a theme or strategy, and each unit you use has to have a use and ideally solve some kind of problem for you.
2) Play more games, either with GK, proxy, borrowed armies, and so on. Learning how the game works is going to make you understand why certain things are good, other things are bad, and so on. It will also help you make fewer bad decisions in the games you play, which will help you win more, and create better lists, even with grey knights.

Ok, thank you everyone. I wanted to avoid buying more stuff, as it is all very expensive. I needed something to do durning summer, because my parents sold my consol. I doubt I will get any money to buy GKs or a new army.

Tried to use counts as, but my opponent was not ok with it. I think I will play something like Draigo, 3 paladin ancients 1 apothecary, the 2 rhinos and 2x5 paladins for now, and hope that GW will change the points costs of Grey Knights. How often, by the way, does GW update their rules, once every each year?

You can still buy the kits since they have fantastic bitz.

Karol wrote:
Ok, thank you everyone. I wanted to avoid buying more stuff, as it is all very expensive. I needed something to do durning summer, because my parents sold my consol. I doubt I will get any money to buy GKs or a new army.

Tried to use counts as, but my opponent was not ok with it. I think I will play something like Draigo, 3 paladin ancients 1 apothecary, the 2 rhinos and 2x5 paladins for now, and hope that GW will change the points costs of Grey Knights. How often, by the way, does GW update their rules, once every each year?

GW updates their products rule twice a year (March and September) and releases a Chapter approved with more rules and changes on December.
But, according with the last Cruddace declaration, GK will have a new treatment in the next CA, so we have to wait December to have at least some point reductions.

With most armies, the "What to do when my army sucks" is usually "wait". Most armies are OP at some point over a relatively short period (although some armies are OP more often than others). The exception is "secondary" or "supplemental" armies. I wouldn't hold my breath for Inquisition, Harlies, etc to be Top Dog the same way the "main armies" are.

GK are in a bad spot because they appear to be migrating/have migrated from "main" to "supplemental" recently.

If you're looking for a tight rulesset to fight competitive games on with strong balance, 40k just isn't that game. It could be closer, but it's modeled more on stylistic armies with super-special-snowflakes strewn throughout. Honestly, most other games are better at being a competitive challenge than 40k.

But what other games can I play Captain Andicar of the VII company of Wings of Dawn? A company that was recently reduced to 23 members (in a game we played) as they withdrew from a Necron hive world they failed to prevent from waking up when Abbadon ambushed their last-ditch attempt to seal it (a campaign game we played, Abbadon's player reinforced the Necron player's position in my reckless last-ditch effort to prevent them from waking the tomb world).

Or Lokus, amitious over-confident Eldar Farseer who believes himself to be some great strategist and seees Tyranid consumption of the galaxy as the only way to save the Eldar race from damnation!

Or Tayanna, an ancient Uthwe Farseer with a history of meddling in fates surrounding the Phoenix Lords themselves, yet never explaining herself to the Seer Council.

Or Convus, who leads a Corsair band descended from a pre-Fall outpost observing the Void Dragon. His two potential successors - the great-great-grandaughter of the Prince who headed the outpost but is rash and enjoys the sport too much, and a former Dire Avenger who seems to be lost on the Path despite turning to the Path of the Outcast - offer very different futures for his band.

It's hard to mesh all that into a tightly balanced game. As you introduce more asymetry, more fluff-centric rules, it's really hard to keep it all fair. Imagine a World of Warcraft where a single Tauren fighter could stomp his way through a handful of Gnome fighters of the same level - that'd be more fluffy. Imagine a world where a single Gnome fighter can't feasibly take on a Tauren fighter of the same level - the players would revolt.

If you love the hobby, keep at it. If you can't get more models, you don't need to worry about what to add. If you can get more models, what do you want to assemble and paint should trump what does well on the tabletop. Because what does well on the tabletop will change.

Its also worth noting that you can get some really good performance out of your Grey Knights. Regardless of what the internet says, or what top tables at adepticon are doing.

The best kept secret on dakka, is that most players who play this game, including people who post on dakka, (and probably me included!) is that they aren't actually very good. Even up through local tournaments, its actually not *that* common to see people copy paste LVO or GT lists to run. What I mean by this is if you take Grey Knights, you listen to the constructive advice people give you, and learn and understand your army, what works, and why it works, you can put together a solid list and play it well. This will give you the tools you need to beat most players you come across. It won't be enough to win NOVA, but chances are you aren't trying to do that. Post your list, clean it up a bit. Focus on taking units that work for you and work in your meta. Learn when to use your psychic powers. You'll do well in casual settings in your local environment.

Yeah, nova is on another continent if am not wrong about it. How often do GK win smaller GT, I understand that something like world championship they don't get played, but how do the list winning local GT look like?

Right now nothing I have seems to work in my meta. All armies seem to have more command points, more shoting and some have really scary melee. I thought that GK were a melee army at first, so I tried playing them like that. But then a guy at my store showed me the error of my ways, charging my army turn and kiling everything bar the rhinos, and the strike squad inside them.


Also,and I understand this may sound ignorant, but what does "love the hobby" mean? Is it something like like very much ?

The "love the hobby" is about what interests you in the game. Do you enjoy the models? The fluff? The painting? I think it's a way to warn those who really just want to play a game that there may be better games for them, if they don't care for those things.

It's an expensive hobby. It's tons of fun. But it's not for everyone.

GK need to use both their shooty and choppy, I think. The old 'shoot the choppy, chop the shooty'. If a bunch of genestealers are running at you, step back and shoot. Don't advance until you can countercharge. If a bunch of Tau are shooting at you from a distance, drop in close and smash some skulls. Except, as GK, you need to utilize both your shooty and your choppy on the same units - so shoot before you charge, but don't expect to shoot things entirely off the table.

 akaean wrote:
Its also worth noting that you can get some really good performance out of your Grey Knights. Regardless of what the internet says, or what top tables at adepticon are doing.

The best kept secret on dakka, is that most players who play this game, including people who post on dakka, (and probably me included!) is that they aren't actually very good. Even up through local tournaments, its actually not *that* common to see people copy paste LVO or GT lists to run. What I mean by this is if you take Grey Knights, you listen to the constructive advice people give you, and learn and understand your army, what works, and why it works, you can put together a solid list and play it well. This will give you the tools you need to beat most players you come across. It won't be enough to win NOVA, but chances are you aren't trying to do that. Post your list, clean it up a bit. Focus on taking units that work for you and work in your meta. Learn when to use your psychic powers. You'll do well in casual settings in your local environment.

Somebody doesn't need to touch the army to do the math and understand there's a lot wrong with the codex.

Insulting the Grey Knights players by just saying they're not good and to not expect to get to a top table is, quite frankly, insulting everyone playing the army.

On the other hand, claiming that they autolose even casual games, there's nothing they can do, should be insulting to everyone who plays the game.

The comment you're refering to is in response to "How can I best field my GK". It was not a claim that GK are "fine".

He's saying "Your army isn't top dog, but you can still win games. Post your list, and we'll see what advice you can give". You're saying "That's dumb. GK are bad and you should feel bad for trying to help someone play GK better".

The post says "most players who play this game" aren't actually very good. He was not targetting GK players specifically.

Dont feel bad, the Knights codex is almost out and they will be the worst codex in 8th

Bharring wrote:
On the other hand, claiming that they autolose even casual games, there's nothing they can do, should be insulting to everyone who plays the game.

The comment you're refering to is in response to "How can I best field my GK". It was not a claim that GK are "fine".

He's saying "Your army isn't top dog, but you can still win games. Post your list, and we'll see what advice you can give". You're saying "That's dumb. GK are bad and you should feel bad for trying to help someone play GK better".

The post says "most players who play this game" aren't actually very good. He was not targetting GK players specifically.

Nobody outside a couple of people said autolose. They're either autolose against an even mildly trimmed list (Yeahyeah anecdotal evidence from people saying they're fine. I counter with my own saying I have yet to lose to any game with them, and you've probably peaked at my lists I make too; I'm not even that hardcore with most of what I make) or they struggle in a casual game. The latter part is very much offensive to game balance.

Also the post IS targeting GK players. It's saying nobody else is good, so who cares because you're not good and your army is not good. It's insults everyone; it just has a target it hits more.

I'm not trying to insult GK players. I'm just saying there is a big difference between meeting up with a few regulars at a hobby shop on a weekend and attending a major event are very different environments. Surely we can agree that a streamlined GK force can do well in casual pick up games at the local GW shop or with your buddies?

Unless your ultimate goal is to build a top tier army, the competitiveness of the book doesn't matter as much in a large variety of situations. But to be fair those players need to rebuild their army and jump ship every few years or more to keep their edge.

All I'm trying to say is that while we talk a lot about hyper competitive major tournament armies and events, most games aren't played in those settings. I'm not calling GK players bad, I'm saying the vast majority of games in this hobby are not played between Kasperov and Fischer. They are played with everyday folk looking to have a good time with their sci fi models.

Getting an army capable of doing okay in casual pick up games is a reasonable challenge for any army. You don't need to take every army to a major tournament to have fun in this hobby if that isn't your goal.

EDIT: As for that weird bit about somehow interpreting what I wrote as saying "so who cares because you're not good and your army is not good." Is just wrong. My point is that if a player is willing to learn, warhammer is pretty easy to climb the ranks and get better in. There is not as much competitive depth to Warhammer players as there is to Chess or Tennis or whatever simply because comparatively fewer people play. (Likewise there is more competitive depth in warhammer players than bolt Action players and it's still a number of people playing game).

Im just saying don't give up. Approach the game with a positive attitude and learn your army and from your mistakes and you can get a lot better. When I started out I felt like list tailoring was the cheesiest thing someone could do and I hated it because it made me feel helpless. As I got better, learned my army and more strategies, I realized that those list tailoring players weren't that bad, and were easily beaten by my own well rounded take all comers lists. Being open to learning about the game is the best thing a new player can do.

Karol wrote:
Ok, thank you everyone. I wanted to avoid buying more stuff, as it is all very expensive. I needed something to do durning summer, because my parents sold my consol. I doubt I will get any money to buy GKs or a new army.

Tried to use counts as, but my opponent was not ok with it. I think I will play something like Draigo, 3 paladin ancients 1 apothecary, the 2 rhinos and 2x5 paladins for now, and hope that GW will change the points costs of Grey Knights. How often, by the way, does GW update their rules, once every each year?

This post RIGHT HERE is exactly why, when people are getting started and are thinking about playing Grey Knights, we try and dissuade them from picking this army. If you have limitations on how much you can spend, picking Grey Knights right now is throwing your money away. GW produces a bunch of beautiful miniatures that aren't complete garbage on the table, there are other choices than GK.

The end result of people picking Grey Knights is always the same. Frustration because they get wrecked and feel like they wasted their money. This happened at my FLGS with a really nice guy who bought some Grey Knights to start, and guess what? He never plays. I don't understand why people come here and give bad advice, talking up Grey Knights. It has a real impact to people making actual financial decisions.

To address your proposed army:

1. If you don't have the rhinos yet don't buy them. None of the models you have can ride in a rhino; only power armored Grey Knights can ride in a rhino.

2. Don't buy 3 Paladin Ancients that's overkill.

If you want, you could post what you have, and we might be able to help you grow your army with as minimal of an investment as possible to at least be somewhat viable on the table.

 Marmatag wrote:


This post RIGHT HERE is exactly why, when people are getting started and are thinking about playing Grey Knights, we try and dissuade them from picking this army. If you have limitations on how much you can spend, picking Grey Knights right now is throwing your money away. GW produces a bunch of beautiful miniatures that aren't complete garbage on the table, there are other choices than GK.

The end result of people picking Grey Knights is always the same. Frustration because they get wrecked and feel like they wasted their money. This happened at my FLGS with a really nice guy who bought some Grey Knights to start, and guess what? He never plays. I don't understand why people come here and give bad advice, talking up Grey Knights. It has a real impact to people making actual financial decisions.

Yea, fair enough, but if you have faith the GW is going to make the necessary tweaks and it's the army you like the most wouldn't you regret buying an army you didn't like as much when GK gets pushed back into the middle of the pack?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


This post RIGHT HERE is exactly why, when people are getting started and are thinking about playing Grey Knights, we try and dissuade them from picking this army. If you have limitations on how much you can spend, picking Grey Knights right now is throwing your money away. GW produces a bunch of beautiful miniatures that aren't complete garbage on the table, there are other choices than GK.

The end result of people picking Grey Knights is always the same. Frustration because they get wrecked and feel like they wasted their money. This happened at my FLGS with a really nice guy who bought some Grey Knights to start, and guess what? He never plays. I don't understand why people come here and give bad advice, talking up Grey Knights. It has a real impact to people making actual financial decisions.

Yea, fair enough, but if you have faith the GW is going to make the necessary tweaks and it's the army you like the most wouldn't you regret buying an army you didn't like as much when GK gets pushed back into the middle of the pack?

People getting started don't always have the visibility into other armies, factions, etc. There is no harm in having a "have you considered..." kind of discussion. It's pretty easy to find a model or few models that you find aesthetically pleasing in any line of models.

And, while it's possible GW will update GK to be passable, there is no evidence to suggest their core problems - bad psychic powers, dramatically limited unit choice, low mobility - will suddenly be solved - these come with a total redesign.

Grey Knights are waiting for 9th. But that's just like, my opinion, man.

It doesn't have to be a new edition, a second Codex in this edition would do the trick.

With the new GW I could easily see that, they finish the last few index armies and then come out with GK 2.0 and SM 2.0.

Make a big dev post on how they learned so much from writing these two first codices, etc. etc.

 akaean wrote:
I'
Im just saying don't give up. Approach the game with a positive attitude and learn your army and from your mistakes and you can get a lot better. When I started out I felt like list tailoring was the cheesiest thing someone could do and I hated it because it made me feel helpless. As I got better, learned my army and more strategies, I realized that those list tailoring players weren't that bad, and were easily beaten by my own well rounded take all comers lists. Being open to learning about the game is the best thing a new player can do.

I don't know what list tailoring means? But could you have any advice how to beat my friends armies?
:edit: am stupid how could you know their lists.
I play vs 5 people the most. Two are brothers who either play some sort of eldar list with a ton of shoting and airplanes,or they play the same eldar and ally them with other eldar. Their army is very confusing, how in works in general. There is one guy who plays bloodangels, he has a lot of different fast moving troops and scots infiltrating, he also sometimes runs 3 units of hellblasters, but not in every list. His list are generally doing a lot of melee, turn 1 charges etc Then there is our demon player, he started a few months before us, and he goes to tournaments and has a much larger collection. Am getting my ass handed to me the hardest vs him, but he has a much larger collection then any of use aside for the brothers, and has much more xp. The last guy plays tyranids, he has 2 flyings ones that shot a lot, like 60-80 small ones, and some mid sized melee ones. He sometimes also brings 2 big monsters that borrow from underground kill some dudes and borrow underground.

The rest of the store plays more or less everything. There is no orc players, and I am the only GK player. There is a lot of different space marines, or space marines with something else, 3 human guard players, and a lot of demon armies, eldar are popular too, but not as much as the space marines.

If you want, you could post what you have, and we might be able to help you grow your army with as minimal of an investment as possible to at least be somewhat viable on the table.

I have 15 terminators, 2 with psycannons and 1 with a incinerator, all armed with a mix of swords and halabards. I have Caldor Draigo, and nemezis dreadknight with hammer and psycannon. 2 rhinos and 5 grey knight strikes 3 with halabards, 1 with sword, 1 with psycannon

 Marmatag wrote:


People getting started don't always have the visibility into other armies, factions, etc. There is no harm in having a "have you considered..." kind of discussion. It's pretty easy to find a model or few models that you find aesthetically pleasing in any line of models.

Yea, true and GK are not nearly as aesthetically contentious as Thousand Sons, because I'll stick with my TS as my primary army until I die.

I wish they put the info on the boxs or something, no sells person is going to tell you the army sucks, because he wants to get rid of the bad stuff first. Or maybe have some sort of buff for armies that are doing worse. Lets say some armies doesn't win any GT, and is the least represented, then they could give it a blank stats buff, and they could change such stuff every seson.

Plus I think it would be nice if they balanced lower point games. Everyone keeps telling me that the game is balanced at 2500pts, great am sure of it, but when I play 1500pts and I have to face Magnus and some demons am screwed .

Karol wrote:

I have 15 terminators, 2 with psycannons and 1 with a incinerator, all armed with a mix of swords and halabards. I have Caldor Draigo, and nemezis dreadknight with hammer and psycannon. 2 rhinos and 5 grey knight strikes 3 with halabards, 1 with sword, 1 with psycannon

Okay, cool. I can work with this.

Suggestions to alter what you have and maximize it would be...

1. Play your nemesis dreadknight as a Grand Master Nemesis Dreadnight. He'll get +1WS/BS and a 4++ instead of a 5++, making him hyper durable. With sanctuary he's got a 3++ and this is a tough nut to crack. You'll want to put sanctuary on him in most cases. This also gives you a second HQ to pair with Draigo for a battalion. Don't make Draigo your warlord, make it this guy, and give him first to the fray. This lets you reroll charges for any unit that starts the charge phase within 6" of him, so he can charge and then still give rerolls to the unit next to him even if he succeeds and moves outside of 6". This cat is starting on the table. Put an incinerator on him, since you're facing flyers, as without this you have 0 answer to flyers. Just play counts-as, it's one extra bit, if people get testy just tape the bit to your base. He will start on the table, and will receive your first gate of infinity. Play the hammer as a sword to save points.

2. Pack 10 terminators together into a squad. These guys will be deep striking. That's 40 storm bolter dice and a few attacks. You'll need to pick the right spot for these to land. They will be in deep strike with Draigo. When they land together you'll boost them with Psybolt Ammo to make that 40x Strength 5, AP-1 shots. Also because of Draigo you'll be rerolling 1s and 2s. With this many terminators you'd also want to boost their invulnerable save if you can. Getting them to 4++ makes them a decent wall of bodies that might not get faced off of the table in seconds. Hammerhand is a LIE. Bring utility spells. You will always want to have sanctuary, gate of infinity, astral aim, available. Putting astral aim on these guys makes those shots ignore cover which can be very, very useful.

3. Bring 5 strikes, and play your Rhinos as Razorbacks. Put an assault cannon on one, and a twin lascannon on the other. You desperately need high strength ranged anti-tank, so it's not a horrible choice given what you have. And, again, if people get upset just tape the bits to the top your rhinos. It will show them how silly they are playing this level of what-you-see-is-what-you-get at this level of play. These will all start on the table so as to allow for deep striking points.

4. Your last 5 man terminator squad will start on the ground unfortunately and guard the Rhinos. it's an overkill waste of points here but you need to put them on the table so you have enough points to match your reserves, and you'll want to babysit that twin lascannon and twin assault cannon.

5. Draigo casts two spells. I'm a fan of utility here, too, but you can always put purge soul on as one of his spells. Maybe you'll encounter blobs with lower leadership and spike, dealing 6+ mortal wounds. You need a punchers chance here and sometimes this connects. Sometimes.

Your essential gambit will be to identify where your opponent's best stuff is, drop draigo, the terminators, and gate the GMNDK right in there, shoot, and charge with rerolling dice.

By playing a battalion, you'll have 8 command points to work with. You'll be using 2 of these right away on the first turn to get +1strength and -1 AP on your storm bolter dice. You will also use 2 to boost the invuln save of something you need should that arise. Plan on using an additional one for a charge dice reroll. So you'll have 3 for the rest of the game, make them freaking count because you're going to need them, and pray you don't peril of the warp because that'll suck another dice away.

If you play this and get absolutely crushed, I wouldn't buy any more Grey Knights because your meta has already evolved beyond them being useful.

Also, don't play beta deep strike rules, they feth Grey Knights more than any other army. These are beta rules, not real rules, so you don't have to play them if you don't want to.

Good luck! If you share your battle reports we can probably help you adjust your tactics. I expect you to lose but not badly.

Karol wrote:

I don't know what list tailoring means? But could you have any advice how to beat my friends armies?
:edit: am stupid how could you know their lists.

People do this.

Either by knowing that they have a limited set of models, by checking out what models they've got with them, by not having a written army list and fudging your wargear to suit or by flat out asking for their list before making yours.

If you know an opponent's list and build yours specifically for it you can have a substantial advantage which is why it's a scummy move.


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Karol wrote:
I wish they put the info on the boxs or something

It would be nice if the box said "this unit is grossly overpriced" but I think it's unlikely...

 akaean wrote:
I'm not trying to insult GK players. I'm just saying there is a big difference between meeting up with a few regulars at a hobby shop on a weekend and attending a major event are very different environments. Surely we can agree that a streamlined GK force can do well in casual pick up games at the local GW shop or with your buddies?

Here's the kicker, and get this: they're really not a good army in a casual setting either. That's really the biggest insult to an army that actually has a codex.

They do BETTER, but it's not exactly a hard hurdle to jump over when you make that question. I wouldn't recommend the army at all actually, and say to buy the kits strictly for bitz. The kits themselves are pretty great. I have 2 each of the Strike Squads and the Terminators (though granted I haven't actually opened the latter as I hate most of the Terminator models, but just in case...)

As far as kitbashing goes, Dark Angels have cooler looking Knights than Grey Knights. Deathwing are kickass, sand down those shields and do your own design.

This is why I also say that if people are serious about Grey Knights, look at some of the other armies. You can achieve that same aesthetic with a more robust force. Not saying Dark Angels are top tier, but they're leagues above GK.

It will be interesting to see how GK stack up to mono-IK or mono-Harlies.

GK shod be base 2 attacks not 1 attack due to veteran status.