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Feel free to remodel your weapons. Tell your friends,
"Hey, I want to try running my squad with Falcions today, can I proxy my Strike Squad with Falcions?" If your opponents say no they are being ridiculous. You should not limit yourself strictly to the weapons you have modeled, especially when you are experimenting and figuring out what you like. If you want to try swapping out Psycannons for Psylincers, and let people know that you are experimenting and if you like the performance you'll model your squads with the appropriate weapons. Most people aren't tools about things like this.

Another option for you to go is to try a Vanguard Detachment focused around Paladins. You'll be pretty starved for CP, so you really need to make em count, For instance as a core for the army a Vanguard Detachment with 2x 5 Paladins, a Dread Knight Warlord, Draigo and an Apothecary 3 wound terminators are really quite durable as they are no longer one shot by overcharged plasma. And you can use an Apothecary to pick up dead ones or heal wounded ones. Focus on what you can do to take advantage of your unique spells and powers. For instance using Gate to place a unit behind line of sight blocking terrain and then shooting with Astral Aim may frustrate your opponent into making a mistake. You won't win a direct confrontation with the enemy, but if you can use trickery to avoid a large scale direct conflict with the enemy army, and use that to leverage superior force concentration you may be able to squeeze out some wins!

As to your regular opponents. The Daemon Player is the best of the bunch. You said yourself that he is a tournament player who travels for them with a large collection and vast experience playing different opponents on a high level. As a new player he has a tactical toolbox far outside of yours. I would see if he is willing to act as a resource for you. Ask him to do an army swap for a game. See how he pilots your Grey Knights and makes use of the tools you have available and builds a list with it. It might give you some insight.

blaktoof wrote:
GK shod be base 2 attacks not 1 attack due to veteran status.

They aren’t veterans, though. They’re Astartes with a very specific skill set. They’re also unique in that they have so many Terminator suits that they can put them on regular guys instead of just their most veteran guys. 1 Attack is entirely appropriate for the Troops units.

Far better would be to just give all Astartes the Primaris statline, but that’s a different discussion.

"Hey, I want to try running my squad with Falcions today, can I proxy my Strike Squad with Falcions?" If your opponents say no they are being ridiculous. You should not limit yourself strictly to the weapons you have modeled, especially when you are experimenting and figuring out what you like. If you want to try swapping out Psycannons for Psylincers, and let people know that you are experimenting and if you like the performance you'll model your squads with the appropriate weapons. Most people aren't tools about things like this.

I don't know how this would work, my store is rather strickt as far as upgraded stuff goes. Basic gear is something no one cares about, but if it is a weapon it have to be the right one. Plus I would be scared to cut up that many models, I never done any modeling in my entire life and I would be scared to just destroy the models. And last but not least I have no idea where I could get all those weapons from.

Ask him to do an army swap for a game. See how he pilots your Grey Knights and makes use of the tools you have available and builds a list with it. It might give you some insight.

I don't think that would work. His collection cost more then my stuff, and his army is suppose to be good, no idea if it is true or not though. He is hard to get games in, he only plays games that give points for store events, or when he is preparing for some tournament, and he kind of a let me feel that my army is aint worth the time. I played against a marine player, and he had the table reserved after us, we still had like 5 min time to play, and he just put my stuff in my bag saying my army was losing anyway.
I play against the eldar the most and against the tyranids, I go with those guys to the same class.

If its a tournament, than WYSIWYG, but if it's a friendly game it doesn't matter what your shop says, seriously, you should just be allowed to test different load outs with friends, what sort of shop would care or is even that involved in customers games to care if you did this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

"Hey, I want to try running my squad with Falcions today, can I proxy my Strike Squad with Falcions?" If your opponents say no they are being ridiculous. You should not limit yourself strictly to the weapons you have modeled, especially when you are experimenting and figuring out what you like. If you want to try swapping out Psycannons for Psylincers, and let people know that you are experimenting and if you like the performance you'll model your squads with the appropriate weapons. Most people aren't tools about things like this.

I don't know how this would work, my store is rather strickt as far as upgraded stuff goes. Basic gear is something no one cares about, but if it is a weapon it have to be the right one. Plus I would be scared to cut up that many models, I never done any modeling in my entire life and I would be scared to just destroy the models. And last but not least I have no idea where I could get all those weapons from.

Ask him to do an army swap for a game. See how he pilots your Grey Knights and makes use of the tools you have available and builds a list with it. It might give you some insight.

I don't think that would work. His collection cost more then my stuff, and his army is suppose to be good, no idea if it is true or not though. He is hard to get games in, he only plays games that give points for store events, or when he is preparing for some tournament, and he kind of a let me feel that my army is aint worth the time. I played against a marine player, and he had the table reserved after us, we still had like 5 min time to play, and he just put my stuff in my bag saying my army was losing anyway.
I play against the eldar the most and against the tyranids, I go with those guys to the same class.

Ok for starters, your opponents sound like real... jerks. To be flat about it. Secondly, he what, he started clearing your models off the table into your bag? That's a major no-no.

If its a tournament, than WYSIWYG, but if it's a friendly game it doesn't matter what your shop says, seriously, you should just be allowed to test different load outs with friends, what sort of shop would care or is even that involved in customers games to care if you did this?

It is kind of a important to me what the store rules are, maybe in other places can play different, but here if I say that a halabard is a thunder hammer no one is going to play against me. Same if I tried to say my terminators are power armored grey knights.

Ok for starters, your opponents sound like real... jerks. To be flat about it. Secondly, he what, he started clearing your models off the table into your bag? That's a major no-no.

He is bigger then me. am not going to fight him over models. Plus he didn't put all away, just grabed some and put them in to the bag asking if I do it or if he has to do it. And as I would rather not have my models damaged more then they already are, I decided to pack them up. I was losing anyway, so it is not like he was wrong.

Whether you were losing or not, him messing with your stuff is not ok. Do the store owners condone behavior like this? Because if so, you should try to find a different place to play. Unless the store has you reserve time at the tables or something, and you had gone over your allotted time, there's no excuse for that; even if it was his table at that point, packing up your models is totally ridiculous, and you shouldn't stand for it whether he's bigger than you/better at the game than you/whatever.

If someone gets to manhandle someone elses property at your store, including damaging it by tossing it in a bag, just because they are bigger than them, then it's time to find somewhere else to play.

If he's not actually doing anything physically intimidating to you but isn't treating your stuff with respect, immediately tell him to stop. I think it's pretty unlikely he'll get violent, and if he does, there's laws against that for a reason. No shop owner is going to stand for that.

Yea dude. It sounds like you are in a pretty toxic environment. You absolutely should not think all places and communities are like that. Depending on where you live, there are often several communities bouncing about and a lot of awesome players who would actually let you experiment and find your feet with the codex instead of binding you to strict WYSIWYG while you learn.

Don't worry about remodeling minis. If you saved the boxes you probably have the weapon bits anyway still on sprue. Remodeling isn't hard. I've taken the old trusty exacto knife and swapped arms and weapons. Do it all the time. Usually every new codex or edition somebodies arms gotta come off and new weapons strapped on. Even mundane things like cutting Bolters in half and hull mounting them on a rhino for a ww2 style hull mounted storm bolter turret.

You'll get a feel for it, guarenteed. But you shouldn't remodel until you are sure you know what you want... and that means actually being able to test different load outs... check out some of the find a game resources on Dakka. See if you can't hook into another group for games. I think you'll find that most other players aren't tools, and that it wasn't your codex that wasn't fun...

kombatwombat wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
GK shod be base 2 attacks not 1 attack due to veteran status.

They aren’t veterans, though. They’re Astartes with a very specific skill set. They’re also unique in that they have so many Terminator suits that they can put them on regular guys instead of just their most veteran guys. 1 Attack is entirely appropriate for the Troops units.

Far better would be to just give all Astartes the Primaris statline, but that’s a different discussion.

No they're veterans.

Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.


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Also Karol I hope you get out of that environment, it just doesn't sound like its anything a hobby should be, which is something you should look forward too. Talk to the store owner.

Karol wrote:

If its a tournament, than WYSIWYG, but if it's a friendly game it doesn't matter what your shop says, seriously, you should just be allowed to test different load outs with friends, what sort of shop would care or is even that involved in customers games to care if you did this?

It is kind of a important to me what the store rules are, maybe in other places can play different, but here if I say that a halabard is a thunder hammer no one is going to play against me. Same if I tried to say my terminators are power armored grey knights.

Ok for starters, your opponents sound like real... jerks. To be flat about it. Secondly, he what, he started clearing your models off the table into your bag? That's a major no-no.

He is bigger then me. am not going to fight him over models. Plus he didn't put all away, just grabed some and put them in to the bag asking if I do it or if he has to do it. And as I would rather not have my models damaged more then they already are, I decided to pack them up. I was losing anyway, so it is not like he was wrong.

Have you talked to the shop owner about this? I've seen people get banned from at least playing in stores because they were caught deliberately cheating on multiple occasions. Disrespecting another player's models though is generally seen as a much higher sin than that. If you go to the owner and tell them that you stil had time left, he started messing with your stuff to push you along, and it made you uncomfortable to be in the store. Chances are the potential loss of income will motivate the owner to take action.

Also if you start asking other players there if this guy has tried something like that to them, you'll find that the local community will have a poor view on such behavior. Even if the store owner dealing with things doesn't do much, you might find the other players to be more vigilant about such behavior.

 Quickjager wrote:
[
No they're veterans.

Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.

Do you have a source for that? Something stating that only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armour? I know they don’t follow the normal Carapace -> Power -> Terminator Armour and go straight from training to Terminator, but all that says is that there are some newbies amongst the Terminators’ ranks, not that the Power Armoured guys are veterans.

Bharring wrote:
It will be interesting to see how GK stack up to mono-IK or mono-Harlies.

GK can't do almost anything versus IK. We don't have antitank but razor dreddy and raven. but we can't reroll to wound so in a match IK will destroy our antitank before they can deal real damage.

Gk have either ok or amazing chances of winning depending on terrain because of an upper hand in scoring. You could focus down 1-2 knights with shooting, magic and most importantly mellee but than you'll need to hide and hug points. Gk characters like draigo and voldus can expect to deal 6-9 wounds in mellee before hammerhand and fight twice trategems. Shooting can be handy here. Psylancer devastators deal around 5 wounds to an ik using a strategem.

But damage is not as important here as scoring. Ik can't get to 2-d floors of buildings. Means you can be safe there. And if the second floor is blocked from los, completely safe. So, basically all you need to win is focus down 1-2 ik and score. Which is not that hard since you have deepstrike and gate of infinity.

 ShredderShards wrote:

If he's not actually doing anything physically intimidating to you but isn't treating your stuff with respect, immediately tell him to stop. I think it's pretty unlikely he'll get violent, and if he does, there's laws against that for a reason. No shop owner is going to stand for that.

It doesn't really help me much if he beats me up later outside of the store. I learned my lesson to not make football hooligans angry. Plus his mother is a teacher at my school, I would be @#$% if she started teaching me.

Have you talked to the shop owner about this? I've seen people get banned from at least playing in stores because they were caught deliberately cheating on multiple occasions. Disrespecting another player's models though is generally seen as a much higher sin than that. If you go to the owner and tell them that you stil had time left, he started messing with your stuff to push you along, and it made you uncomfortable to be in the store. Chances are the potential loss of income will motivate the owner to take action.

Not really, but I know his dad and the store owner know each other real good. All I would achive is getting a store ban, and this is the only place to play in my town. By the way I don't really feel bad about the stuff he did. I got used to stuff like that. It is not like I didn't chased of some 10 year olds playing mtg from a table to playmyself.

Don't worry about remodeling minis. If you saved the boxes you probably have the weapon bits anyway still on sprue. Remodeling isn't hard. I've taken the old trusty exacto knife and swapped arms and weapons. Do it all the time. Usually every new codex or edition somebodies arms gotta come off and new weapons strapped on. Even mundane things like cutting Bolters in half and hull mounting them on a rhino for a ww2 style hull mounted storm bolter turret.

I have no real expiriance with modeling, but wouldn't trying to cut metal models with a knife be very dangerous? One slip and the model is destroyed or you don't have a finger. Plus the models I got didn't have any spare parts.

School ends today, so summer time game bonanza starts, I will try to play with Akaean said to run them.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to cut soft metal. Just take your time. You can even shave it like plastic.

It seems to dull the knife very quickly to cut the metal models, but it is possible. Be careful. Always cut *away* from yourself.

It's easy to say "Just this one quick cut, I'll be careful". And that's how people get seriously injured.

So you can do it, but be careful.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
[
No they're veterans.

Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.

Do you have a source for that? Something stating that only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armour? I know they don’t follow the normal Carapace -> Power -> Terminator Armour and go straight from training to Terminator, but all that says is that there are some newbies amongst the Terminators’ ranks, not that the Power Armoured guys are veterans.

Was in the Alaric omnibus give me some time to get you a specific page.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
[
No they're veterans.

Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.

Do you have a source for that? Something stating that only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armour? I know they don’t follow the normal Carapace -> Power -> Terminator Armour and go straight from training to Terminator, but all that says is that there are some newbies amongst the Terminators’ ranks, not that the Power Armoured guys are veterans.

According to the fluff I've read, and mostly from the novel The Emperor's Gift / Aaron Dembski-Bowden (one of the best GK novels I've ever read btw) GK are trained for 50 years after the implantation of their geneseed before they're given their armor. When they're promoted to "battle brother" they are given a suit of Power Armor and a suit of Terminator Armor. Their commander/captain/sergeant determines what role they're squad will be fielded as, as the situation demands (ex: Strike Squad, Terminator, Interceptor, etc.).

So what you're saying is we need Grey Knight Scouts!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what you're saying is we need Grey Knight Scouts!

Or inquisitorial henchmen!

A hobby saw will do the trick, too. You'll have an uglier edge maybe, but i've found that exacto doesn't work unless you super glued lightly. If you used plastic glue you'll break the blade. my 2c.

And in honesty there are cultural differences here. The best solution for him is to start winning games. Try what i said, with a battalion, if you can. A GMNDK is not different, model wise, from a NDK.

we need some kind of scouts in PA (like during the heresy) with psyrifle (sniper). that could be useful.

Anyone also annoyed that Space Wolves got a True Grit Strategem? What's up with that?

Strike Squads are GK Scouts.

In the Grey Knights, our Troops wear TDA, our Elites wear PA, and our HQs wear Nemesis DreadKnight Armor.

SJ

 Marmatag wrote:
A hobby saw will do the trick, too. You'll have an uglier edge maybe, but i've found that exacto doesn't work unless you super glued lightly. If you used plastic glue you'll break the blade. my 2c.

And in honesty there are cultural differences here. The best solution for him is to start winning games. Try what i said, with a battalion, if you can. A GMNDK is not different, model wise, from a NDK.

Where do people get weapons to switch stuff on their models, I checked the ones I have today, and they seem to be solid chunks of metal, with the exeption of the dreadknight?

Played my first game today with the termintors run as 10 in one squad, 5 paladins, strikes in a rhino and the dreadknight as my leader. My opponent played space marines, he had the ultramarine primarch, 2 flyers of some sort, a screen of scouts, and 3 rhinos with assault cannons. I got first turn, moved all my stuff up and tried to deep strike, only to be told I can't do it turn one. Thought my opponent was bullshiting me, but the store owner told me that is the rule right now. My opponent was ok with me taking back some movment, So I tried to get cover for most of my stuff.
On his turn he his stuff to the side, killed my dreadknight the rhino, and drop the strikes to 3 models, my paladins were in the backfield protecting my objectives and somehow untouched. On my turn 2 I droped the termintors near the scouts, used the damage buffing stratagems, and killed a unit of scouts. My paladins shuffled to be closer to the objective they were holding, and my 3 strikes shot at the scouts killing 1. On his turn he shot everything on the ground with his razorbacks, and then charged the termintors with his two left over scout units and his primarch, he droped the unit to 3 models, and I droped his scout to two units of 2 scouts each. His fliers started shoting at my paladins. Third turn was my termintors being dead, and then it was 3 turns of his fliers shoting my paladins. We stoped the game on turn 6, because the store was closing. I think I lost, because had most of his army aside for 2 units of scouts and I had 1paladin with 1 wound left.
Don't know what I could have done better. Tomorrow I am going to play vs imperial guard, and chaos. I will look how this goes.

Really, Bobby G, AC Razorbacks and Flyers in a low-points escalation league?

I mean, that list has been nerfed a ton, but that doesn't sound very "friendly"...

It's made of marine units. It doesn't get much more friendly. Except GK units....

As i said before in my post - by the way, if you're not reading my posts i can dip out - is that this is a beta rule, and it is not a formal rule. You do not have to play the beta rule if you do not want to, just be up front about it before the game. If you're playing ITC rules then it's too bad so sad, they use it.

Judging by what you're facing, you stand effectively 0 chance in this scenario.

As I said before, and numerous others have said, you are waiting for 9th or a major update before GK can compete even casually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Really, Bobby G, AC Razorbacks and Flyers in a low-points escalation league?

I mean, that list has been nerfed a ton, but that doesn't sound very "friendly"...

Can you make an argument for Ultramarines without RG? At that point they'd be better played as any other chapter. UM have the worst tactics i've ever seen.

Martel732 wrote:
It's made of marine units. It doesn't get much more friendly. Except GK units....

This made me laugh more than it should have, then it made me sad...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Really, Bobby G, AC Razorbacks and Flyers in a low-points escalation league?

I mean, that list has been nerfed a ton, but that doesn't sound very "friendly"...

"Can you make an argument for Ultramarines without RG? At that point they'd be better played as any other chapter. UM have the worst tactics i've ever seen."

Karol wrote:
Played my first game today with the termintors run as 10 in one squad, 5 paladins, strikes in a rhino and the dreadknight as my leader. My opponent played space marines, he had the ultramarine primarch, 2 flyers of some sort, a screen of scouts, and 3 rhinos with assault cannons. I got first turn, moved all my stuff up and tried to deep strike, only to be told I can't do it turn one. Thought my opponent was bullshiting me, but the store owner told me that is the rule right now.

There’s a Beta rule currently in effect that you can’t Deep Strike outside of your Deployment Zone Turn 1. They’re currently getting the community to try this rule out, nobody knows whether it will become permanent or if it will change. GW are asking for feedback on it though - if you feel it is giving GK trouble, go ahead and email GW.

I have to say, your issues aren’t entirely your fault. It looks like the store you’re playing in is very competitive. The Ultramarines list you played against is what we’d call a netlist - that is, they looked up the most overpowered stuff on the internet and only took that, or otherwise copied the list from the top players at a big tournament. That particular list - Guilliman, Stormravens/Fire Raptors, Razorbacks and Scouts - is a little ‘out of date’ now in a competitive sense since GW has nerfed all of those units to bring the power of that particular list down. It’s still probably one of - if not the - strongest lists Space Marines can make, and bringing it to a friendly game is unkind. If you can, try to make it clear to your opponents ahead of time that you’re not going to be bringing a tournament-winning army and hopefully they’ll tone down their list from that level of harsh.

Martel732 wrote:It's made of marine units. It doesn't get much more friendly. Except GK units....

See now this sort of tripe does nothing but undermine those of us raising genuine concerns with the SM Codex. You’re not helping here, you’re making it harder. If you can’t be constructive then don’t contribute.